Wage cap - Updated with news on Saracens Punishment

by No 7&1/2 Tue 05 Mar 2019, 9:30 am

First topic message reminder :

Saracens have made the following statement.
"
Club Statement - Co-investment partnerships between the Saracens owner and players.

Following a newspaper article, the Club would like to make the following statement:

“Firstly, we would like to reiterate that the Club readily complies with Premiership Rugby salary regulations and information relating to remuneration is declared to the salary cap manager. Although co-investment partnerships between owners and players are not a prerequisite of the salary regulations, we disclose these transactions to Premiership Rugby and will continue to do so.

“Currently, 57% of the men’s squad is comprised of home grown talent - the highest in the Premiership. These players not only produce results on the pitch, they help entitle the Club to £1.2m in credits above the baseline salary cap from the RFU and Premiership Rugby. This is a direct result of our significant investment in the Saracens Academy which nurtures and develops Saracens and England players of the future.

“A professional playing career in rugby can be short. We have a responsibility to help our players fulfil their potential, not just on the pitch but off it too. It is why our Academy incorporates an education programme that actively prepares players for life beyond the sport. We are encouraged that many of our senior players are exploring business opportunities away from rugby.”

To me it just seems to be we're doing good work for the England team so don't pry!

by TJ Sun 19 Jan 2020, 10:03 am

We know roughly Leinsters spend - its around 7 million players budget. We know that sarries overspent the salery cap by at least a million. salery cap is IIRC ( I am sure you will correct me) 7 million plus marquee players plus various dispensations an loopholes - whats sarries total spend on players? 10 million?
Glasgows TOTAL budget is around 7 million. 7.5 millon - thats total cost. Players budget is around 5.5 million. top paid player at glasgow will be on around £300 000pa. Sarries will have a lot of players on twice that.

Yes we do not have total transparancy on pay in any league. Its a shame. But we do have a lot of info in the public realm and these sorts of numbers are about right. Leinster would prbaly be under the english cap. Glasgow certainly well under

by Sgt_Pooly Sun 19 Jan 2020, 10:10 am

TJ wrote:We know roughly Leinsters spend - its around 7 million players budget. We know that sarries overspent the salery cap by at least a million. salery cap is IIRC ( I am sure you will correct me) 7 million plus marquee players plus various dispensations an loopholes - whats sarries total spend on players? 10 million?
Glasgows TOTAL budget is around 7 million. 7.5 millon - thats total cost. Players budget is around 5.5 million. top paid player at glasgow will be on around £300 000pa. Sarries will have a lot of players on twice that.

Yes we do not have total transparancy on pay in any league. Its a shame. But we do have a lot of info in the public realm and these sorts of numbers are about right. Leinster would prbaly be under the english cap. Glasgow certainly well under

Not having a dig TJ but it's all guesswork really so not really a valid point if you know what I mean.

I was always under the impression Leinster spent much more than the AP cap, upwards towards 10m GBP.....but this again was based on nothing concrete, just reports and random discussions.

There's also the complexity of the Irish system with central contracts etc etc.......again, not that it really matters as Leinster are not in the AP and Saracens playing any Pro14 side has got nothing to do with the AP Salary cap.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun 19 Jan 2020, 10:25 am

Reddit has SJ in the Sunday Times

"So Saracens are officially relegated. Perhaps we should first look at rugby’s overall landscape and assess how profoundly that has changed everything. Then we can deal with the murky depths into which the game has sunk, and ponder how rugby became one of the world’s most embittered and secret of societies.
And we can try to detect the sport’s supposed values in the fact that no one implicated in imposing the punishment on Saracens can summon up one word for the innocents — their players, followers, those who may now be left unemployed. They have expressed no concern about the ill effects on England of relegating the national team’s core; or the effect on the Saracens academy, the most successful production line for English talent.
Apparently, as long as Premiership Rugby and its members got Sarries in the end, all this is subjugated, the injured innocents mere collateral damage. Any explanation? Premiership Rugby is almost silent, its chief executive and chairman apparently almost mute, refusing to share with the public until the briefest of statements last night.
The Premiership is palpably diminished for next season. Some of us have seen some club rugby: Cardiff and Newport, Bath and Leicester and Wasps, Leinster and Munster, Toulouse, Brive and Stade Francais in their greatest years. None can touch Saracens. In this era, they have been the greatest club team I have seen. Without Saracens for a season, there will be one excellent team (Exeter), three clubs improving but nowhere remotely near there yet (Gloucester, Sale and Northampton) but above all, a mid-table of inconsistent clubs who can all lose to anyone on the day.
With relegation now decided, all the energy, panic, bigger crowds and drama are drained away. Most of the rest of this season will be as dull as ditchwater. A priceless lesson for anyone wanting to ring-fence the competition.
It will also be easy to say that the landscape will change for a vast number of the disabled, indisposed, mentally unwell, lonely and the ageing, by any cut in the Saracens finances. But the umbrella for the unfortunate will not go away. I am positive that Nigel Wray will continue the Saracens Foundation, because it is arguably a bigger part of his life than Saracens rugby ever was.
But back to changes. Everyone knows that rugby is strangling itself by a lack of independence in its officialdom. Premiership Rugby, like all other rugby institutions, still consists of a bunch of blokes with a massive vested interest calling shots to suit themselves. It is nonsensical that the people who have sat in judgment recently on Saracens are their rivals. Will the penny drop? Rugby is unfit to govern itself.
Last week, we read about 10 different estimates of how far Saracens were over the salary cap. In the world of secrecy you can make up your own figure. The real problem for the club’s rivals was that the savagery of the original punishment was not enough. It did not kill them off. So the new “trials” began, completed processes were reactivated.
As the days went by, Saracens apparently received more letters from on high, demanding this and that and even reparations, which were completely outside the regulations. Then another investigation was called, which Premier Rugby’s chief executive declared could well introduce even more swingeing measures.
At the Saracens end, the very able Edward Griffiths had been brought in to clean up the mess. He had been away from the club scene for a long time but, by all accounts, quickly tried to sort things, fired off apologies, committed to reduce Saracens’ salaries if needed. Naturally, any players he tried to offload held no interest for the Premiership clubs, because it suited them not to do business with Saracens. But suddenly, Saracens were being pressed almost instantaneously to prove that they were under the salary cap for this season, which is halfway through, and to do so within days. Within days.
Their opponents realised that, under the regulations, they could not relegate Saracens. No way. So they made relegation impossible to avoid by punishing Saracens for a season half over. You would not have to be a Saracen to find some of this reprehensible.
Even those of us who, after the initial two years, never believed in the salary cap, realise that the laws must be adhered to. Only last week I was regaled by one of the attendees at the original meeting where the salary cap was passed, by 7-5, after which most of the delegates emerged laughing at how ineffective the move was likely to be. Even now it is still laughably easy to get round it if you want to.
And the confidentiality? The secrecy in rugby now has gone beyond all reason. Media officers are not allowed to spread anything in the way of information. Everything has become a secret.
Some matters are in the open, however. Saracens infringed the salary cap, an offence which deserved, say, a 10-point penalty. They are relegated. There will be enormous problems which the club are trying to fix. On a final note, I will go to my grave believing that no payment to a single Saracens player made a blind bit of difference to any match at any time. And that frankly, Saracens have just been too good."
Plus another bit on England's 6 Nations Squad
"Now is time for Jones to move on from likes of Youngs and Tuilagi
It all begins again tomorrow, when England announce their training squad from which their Six Nations squad will be chosen. Which measurements will Eddie Jones apply in his final deliberations? Current merit? Experience? Degree by which a choice thumbs his nose at public or media opinion? Blatant unknown?
All good fun. Or is it? Jones is the man who helped inspire the greatest performance in England rugby history, the savaging of New Zealand in the World Cup semi-final. And also admitted to (some of) his mistakes in the selection and set-up of the squad at the start and end of the tournament and which helped cost them the final.
One sure way to get much of the nation on his side is to win a grand slam this year. Some of us had enough, decades ago, of selection based on a misty-eyed tilting at a distant future in which only one game of about 46 (the World Cup final) matters a damn.
And we have become tired of pointing out that a grand slam, a wonderful achievement in so internecine and tight a competition, is a national boost of epic proportions. Short-term glory. Basking. Glinting. You cannot beat it. And it carries you forward on a wave benign enough to surf upon.
Saracens’ players have to be assessed. Many of them will, in their hearts, put the fortunes of their club above those of England at present. Then Jones can start to atone for scrum errors. Dan Cole will surely be moved out and I would also leave out Ellis Genge, pending further evidence. Harry Williams of Exeter will take up the squad place he deserved in Japan but never won. Ehren Painter of Northampton is a longish shot at tight-head
Behind the scrum, the endless search for the correct midfield is into its 17th season, but this time should be conducted in the absence of Manu Tuilagi. Mark Atkinson of Gloucester is more consistent, he is hefty, but he can also play. Luke and Sam James, of Sale, deserve a shot, maybe as a double-double act with the Curry twins.
The best scrum halves? On merit, Richard Wigglesworth, Ben Spencer and either Dan Robson or Joe Simpson. Sorry, but the World Cup selection was wrong in the position, so for me these three succeed Ben Youngs and Willi Heinz.
Alex Dombrandt of Harlequins, Jack Willis of Wasps and the resurgent Teimana Harrison of Northampton will contend in the back row, and as for a mature bolter, who is better as a back-up at fly half than Bristol’s Callum Sheedy?
All these men are on form. Not that that means an awful lot to a certain head coach. We wait, and wince, for tomorrow. Dear Eddie, dear England."

https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/eqq4hm/this_is_the_end_of_saracens_the_greatest_club/

by carpet baboon Sun 19 Jan 2020, 11:10 am

Is Jones on the payroll ?
I'm sure he does all this just to get a reaction.
As for his assertion that no money payed to any player made a difference to the result, how willingly blind does he want to be. It was the money that got the player on the pitch in the first to place. Without going over the cap they wouldn't have had the squad to perform as they did. Unfortunately you cannot have the team they have without playing by a separate set of rules to everyone else.

by Heaf Sun 19 Jan 2020, 11:49 am

Does he get paid to write that tripe?

by TJ Sun 19 Jan 2020, 12:01 pm

Fair enough Sgt

One point tho - it does effect the euro cup as well as the bigger squad with more stars helps them there as well

by carpet baboon Sun 19 Jan 2020, 12:11 pm

Heaf wrote:Does he get paid to write that tripe?

Amazingly he does.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun 19 Jan 2020, 12:28 pm

Kitson's piece in the Guardian on Friday was better.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2020/jan/17/saracens-salary-cap-scandal-threatens-farce

He has no real sympathy for Saracens, but is no fan of the way this has played out.

by The Great Aukster Sun 19 Jan 2020, 12:49 pm

nathan wrote:"they could simply compete without weaker teams trying to engineer their competitiveness away from them"

I think you are missing the point, they are not a sustainable club. The cap is to reduce the exposure of risk to the clubs

If they are unsustainable and want to be the architects of their own demise, why should the other clubs care?
Some clubs don't spend up to the cap anyway because they can't sustain even those levels - so should the cap be lowered further to take away the risk of them too?

by The Great Aukster Sun 19 Jan 2020, 12:53 pm

carpet baboon wrote:And for all those saying salary caps should be scrapped as they are ridiculous I would like to point out that the NFL, NBA and NHL all have a very strict and policed salary caps.
I do realize they are operating in a different set of circumstances but clearly show that salary caps work to the benefit of all teams

Yes they operate in a bubble, with no need to compete outside it in either wider club or International tournaments. It is purely in their commercial interests to cap the money inside the bubble.

by carpet baboon Sun 19 Jan 2020, 5:16 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:And for all those saying salary caps should be scrapped as they are ridiculous I would like to point out that the NFL, NBA and NHL all have a very strict and policed salary caps.
I do realize they are operating in a different set of circumstances but clearly show that salary caps work to the benefit of all teams
Yes they operate in a bubble, with no need to compete outside it in either wider club or International tournaments. It is purely in their commercial interests to cap the money inside the bubble.

And that is very true, but even football ,the great bastion of free market economy and rampant sugar daddy capitalism, has had to bring in restraints In the form of financial fair play. (Again apples v oranges, but was the Scottish League I the 90s any good when it was just rangers and celtic winning everything?)
The cap is to do it's best to keep the league as competitive as possible to make the product more exciting, thus bringing more interest and more sponsorship.
And yes I'm a Ulster and Ireland fan and would have no problems with the pro14 bringing in a cap equall to the prems

by nathan Sun 19 Jan 2020, 5:43 pm

TJ, if comparing caps with Leinster, wouldn't you have to add in the tax breaks they receive?

by **BigGee** Sun 19 Jan 2020, 8:32 pm

BBC article on the Ssracens situation suggests they may start releasing players by the end of January.

It slso says they won't be able to play champs cup next year even if they won it this year.

If their contrition, as per their statement is genuine, then they really aught to not be looking st winning competitions this season and concentrate on doing the best thing for their players and staff.

Chasing hard after another Euro title, which will inevitably be tainted should they acheive it is not what is required now. Hopefully this lesson is starting to get through to them now.

by TightHEAD Sun 19 Jan 2020, 9:40 pm

Would the Pro14 welcome Sarries?

by maestegmafia Sun 19 Jan 2020, 9:48 pm

BigGee wrote:BBC article on the Ssracens situation suggests they may start releasing players by the end of January.

It slso says they won't be able to play champs cup next year even if they won it this year.

If their contrition, as per their statement is genuine, then they really aught to not be looking st winning competitions this season and concentrate on doing the best thing for their players and staff.

Chasing hard after another Euro title, which will inevitably be tainted should they acheive it is not what is required now. Hopefully this lesson is starting to get through to them now.

I thought that to participate a club, region or province had to abide by their own league or unions rules, if those include a wage cap as in France, England and Wales then that was part of their eligibility. If this was not the case then any participant could enter one team for the Euro Cup without a wage cap and another that was eligible for the PRO14, Premiership or Top14.

I had a brief search online but didn’t find anything.

Anyone know a link or have more information?

by carpet baboon Sun 19 Jan 2020, 9:59 pm

TightHEAD wrote:Would the Pro14 welcome Sarries?

No

by **BigGee** Sun 19 Jan 2020, 10:12 pm

It seems to be a slightly grey area. Certainly there is no rules on wage caps for Euro comps, I guess as different leagues have different caps (England and France) then that would not be possible. So that given line, that seems to be quoted by everyone, is that there are no caps in Europe.

However the reality is also that no team would just have a squad for Europe, they could not afford that, no matter how much they were cheating the system. The players that play in Europe, also play in the national leagues and in Sarries case, should not have been had they stuck to the rules. If Sarries are genuinely best part of £2 million over spent, then how many of the players who played for them today, would not have been in that squad and would it have effected the result?

That is a moral question, as what they did today, did not appear to break any rules. You can bet your life they would have been into them if they had.

I wonder in the cold light of day if the senior brass at Sarries think that winning this competition really would be a good idea now. Perhaps today was their final and they can now move on and deal with other more pressing matters.

by maestegmafia Sun 19 Jan 2020, 10:15 pm

BigGee wrote:It seems to be a slightly grey area. Certainly there is no rules on wage caps for Euro comps, I guess as different leagues have different caps (England and France) then that would not be possible. So that given line, that seems to be quoted by everyone, is that there are no caps in Europe.

However the reality is also that no team would just have a squad for Europe, they could not afford that, no matter how much they were cheating the system. The players that play in Europe, also play in the national leagues and in Sarries case, should not have been had they stuck to the rules. If Sarries are genuinely best part of £2 million over spent, then how many of the players who played for them today, would not have been in that squad and would it have effected the result?

That is a moral question, as what they did today, did not appear to break any rules. You can bet your life they would have been into them if they had.

I wonder in the cold light of day if the senior brass at Sarries think that winning this competition really would be a good idea now. Perhaps today was their final and they can now move on and deal with other more pressing matters.

rumour has it the pat the Saracens squad will be disassembled by the end of the season.

https://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12572/11912911/saracens-relegated-mark-mccall-confirms-squad-will-be-broken-up

by **BigGee** Sun 19 Jan 2020, 10:22 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/51149035

a handful of players will leave the club by the end of January

Farrell also says that he will be staying, but can the club genuinely afford to pay a player £700,000 to play in the championship? It may be out of his hands and he may not have thought it through properly yet!

by maestegmafia Sun 19 Jan 2020, 10:35 pm

Can’t see the club being able to pay their wages with a reduced income.

Lots of rumours flying around about other clubs being over the wage cap might be sour grapes but we may well see a number of high profile players leave clubs in the next few weeks. Jamie Roberts surprise mid season move to Stormers could well be part of this

by **BigGee** Sun 19 Jan 2020, 10:42 pm

Surely Roberts already counted for this season anyway.

A more cynical view would be that they wanted to lose him to free up some spend for an available Sarries player. I know that they have picked up Matevasi in the meantime but i imagine he will be a lot cheaper than the good doctor, whoes heart did not really look like it was in the mood to wallow through the mud of the rec for to much longer in any case.

by Pot Hale Mon 20 Jan 2020, 1:58 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
TJ wrote:We know roughly Leinsters spend - its around 7 million players budget. We know that sarries overspent the salery cap by at least a million. salery cap is IIRC ( I am sure you will correct me) 7 million plus marquee players plus various dispensations an loopholes - whats sarries total spend on players? 10 million?
Glasgows TOTAL budget is around 7 million. 7.5 millon - thats total cost. Players budget is around 5.5 million. top paid player at glasgow will be on around £300 000pa. Sarries will have a lot of players on twice that.

Yes we do not have total transparancy on pay in any league. Its a shame. But we do have a lot of info in the public realm and these sorts of numbers are about right. Leinster would prbaly be under the english cap. Glasgow certainly well under

Not having a dig TJ but it's all guesswork really so not really a valid point if you know what I mean.

I was always under the impression Leinster spent much more than the AP cap, upwards towards 10m GBP.....but this again was based on nothing concrete, just reports and random discussions.

There's also the complexity of the Irish system with central contracts etc etc.......again, not that it really matters as Leinster are not in the AP and Saracens playing any Pro14 side has got nothing to do with the AP Salary cap.

2013/14
ERC and Provincial income is down slightly lower on last year at €10.3m. The monies earned here go some way towards reducing the €23.8m contribution that the Union made to the four Provincial teams and their Academies.

Note: Contribution does not mean salary budget. It means contribution to various costs of the province, including contributions to player salaries based on contract rankings, insurance, specialist coaching requirements, one-off costs for a particular province item in a season.

by Khouli Khan Mon 20 Jan 2020, 6:57 am

BigGee wrote:

If their contrition, as per their statement is genuine, then they really aught to not be looking st winning competitions this season and concentrate on doing the best thing for their players and staff.

From what I saw from the pundits on TV yesterday, $aracens were given the choice - open your books to a severe audit or be relegated.

Saracens chose relegation - which speaks volumes about the level of financial villainy going on that 'club' (and I now use the term club lightly in their case). However, $aracens' statement said that they need to work hard now to rebuild confidence and trust - while choosing relegation over audit....

Haven't started off on the right road have they.....

by **Rugby Fan** Mon 20 Jan 2020, 7:11 am

Eggchasers podcast is not very illuminating this week. JB decided to be contrarian, and defend Saracens co-investments. Ultimately, it came down to neither him nor Cocker knowing what had actually gone on, so it all seemed like a blind alley.

BBC Rugby podcast is more interesting. Includes the Mail on Sunday reporter who broke the co-investments story. Raises the question of why those in charge of policing the cap were unable to find out what she found out, and criticizes the lack of accountability.

Brendan Venter is also on. He clearly has taken sides but it's interesting to hear his take. He doesn't absolve Saracens but argued they had legal advice supporting their co-investments, and says all routes to remedy the situation were closed off. Monye asks him why he thinks other clubs might not be squeaky clean, and he says any club developing talent will face the problems Saracens had. He noted Gloucester suddenly sent Hudson, Sharples & Hudson out on loan (don't know when he's talking about).

There aren't a lot of answers in the BBC podcast but they ask many good questions.

by Khouli Khan Mon 20 Jan 2020, 7:14 am

Rugby Fan wrote:

BBC Rugby podcast is more interesting. Includes the Mail on Sunday reporter who broke the co-investments story. Raises the question of why those in charge of policing the cap were unable to find out what she found out, and criticizes the lack of accountability.

The level of corruption, enough to warrant such severe punishment, suggests that every single person at the club - board, coaching staff and players, were complicit in this scandal and that they probably had tentacles reaching into the RFU.

I'm so pleased Saracens have been relegated - couldn't have happened to a nice bunch...

by No 7&1/2 Mon 20 Jan 2020, 7:28 am

What have the rfu got to do with it?

by Khouli Khan Mon 20 Jan 2020, 7:30 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:What have the rfu got to do with it?

I believe that the level of corruption reached further than the club itself.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 20 Jan 2020, 7:33 am

But what has a wage bill got to do with the rfu?

by **LondonTiger** Mon 20 Jan 2020, 7:36 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:What have the rfu got to do with it?

1) Nothing, as they have only superficial governance of the Premiership

or

2) They are complicit with the club that has perpetrated the biggest heist in sporting history. A club so evil that Kim Jong-Un is a fan. A club so pernicious that even the arch cynic that is SecretFly (love ya really) has grudging respect.

The real issue is that the Salary Cap manager has, until now, been required to work only from the information submitted by the clubs. There could be other teams deliberately breaking the cap, though nowhere near to the level Sarries did, who have utilised the same evasion. This though is not an RFU thing, it is a PRL thing. Which we should all remember is owned by the clubs.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 20 Jan 2020, 7:40 am

That was my understanding LT. Possibly Khan is getting confused.

by Khouli Khan Mon 20 Jan 2020, 7:43 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:That was my understanding LT. Possibly Khan is getting confused.

I did mean the PRL and typed RFU out of habit of taking every opportunity to 'out' corruption within the sport.

by **Rugby Fan** Mon 20 Jan 2020, 7:45 am

If The RFU hadn't screwed their finances over the last couple of years, they could potentially have been in a position to take advantage of this mess by signing some Saracens players on central contracts. That would have opened the door to taking back a measure of control.

by Khouli Khan Mon 20 Jan 2020, 7:47 am

LondonTiger wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:What have the rfu got to do with it?

1) Nothing, as they have only superficial governance of the Premiership

or

2) They are complicit with the club that has perpetrated the biggest heist in sporting history. A club so evil that Kim Jong-Un is a fan. A club so pernicious that even the arch cynic that is SecretFly (love ya really) has grudging respect.

The real issue is that the Salary Cap manager has, until now, been required to work only from the information submitted by the clubs. There could be other teams deliberately breaking the cap, though nowhere near to the level Sarries did, who have utilised the same evasion. This though is not an RFU thing, it is a PRL thing. Which we should all remember is owned by the clubs.

In rugby terms, they have - pretty much.

Saracens are cheats, and to some people, that within sport is a truly evil crime - in fact, there can be little worse. And its about time some people woke up to the disrepute they've brought to the sport.

by Khouli Khan Mon 20 Jan 2020, 7:48 am

Rugby Fan wrote:If The RFU hadn't screwed their finances over the last couple of years, they could potentially have been in a position to take advantage of this mess by signing some Saracens players on central contracts. That would have opened the door to taking back a measure of control.

Damned right - nobody - Saracens, the PRL or the RFU come out of this looking particularly good. As far as i'm concerned, they're all as guilty as a puppy sitting next to a pile of poo.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 20 Jan 2020, 7:51 am

Again what has it to do with the rfu. What jurisdiction do they have? In terms of saracens having tentacles in the prl what do you mean exactly?
Are Exeter guilty as they form part of the prl?
If everyone is guilty shouldn't they just scrap the cap,j

by carpet baboon Mon 20 Jan 2020, 7:54 am

Bit of speculation on my part but..... In 2015 2 clubs were found to be in n breech of the cap (bath and Saracens) now they were fined, but we're never publicly identified or the fine made public, this was due to threats of legal action from the two clubs and the threat of not signing the new participation agreement with the RFU, thus depriving the other clubs of funds they needed.
Now at the time it was reported that not going public and delaying the outcome of the investigation was to "not damage the image of English rugby just before a home world cup"
Also In 2015 BT sport's were negotiating a new TV deal with the PRL. Now up untill this last week BT have been a huge supporter of Saracens even trying to justify the original fine as being to harsh by most (not all) presenters.
Which shouldn't suprise anyone when you look back at the closeness between BT, McCafferty (PRL) Craig and Wray (Bath and Saracens) who shared a lot of common Interests.
We could imagine that maybe some pressure was applied by higher ups in BT sport and communicated by McCafferty that they didn't want the 2015 report you going public as it may "damage" the brand and reduce its price in the tv markets.
So we could speculate that after such pressure was originally applied by the teams, the head of PRL and the broadcaster that Saracens may have felt safe that no real scrutiny would head there way with the backing they had already received, and the continued look the other way approach from the PRL right up untill a reporter made things public and PRL had no choice but to be seen to be doing something.
You could also go full conspiracy and say it's only got this far as macafferty is stepping down as head of PRL and knew it wouldn't be kept hidden once he had gone and wanted to be seen to do the right thing

Anyway this is all speculation on my part and could be well wide of the mark.

Has anyone asked McCafferty why it took so long to look properly??

by No 7&1/2 Mon 20 Jan 2020, 8:00 am

Brian Moore is pretty vocal again on the subject and he points out the silence from the majority of the press. No unlike the cheating in the brexit referendum.

by Khouli Khan Mon 20 Jan 2020, 8:04 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Again what has it to do with the rfu. What jurisdiction do they have? In terms of saracens having tentacles in the prl what do you mean exactly?
Are Exeter guilty as they form part of the prl?
If everyone is guilty shouldn't they just scrap the cap,j

Anyone found guilty of association with this inequity should be publicly birched.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 20 Jan 2020, 8:08 am

I assume you're typing up roper responses to the questions Khan.

by Irish Londoner Mon 20 Jan 2020, 8:20 am

Am I the only one who is concerned that Saracens were even allowed to choose between relegation and opening their books up to inspection and then were allowed to go "OK we'll take relegation but you're not seeing the books"?
So what happens next season when they come back up again and the PRL ask to see their books - are they going to stay in the Championship?
Final point - as anyone asked the Championship clubs - some of whom like Ealing and Pirates are trying to get promoted to the Premiership and now have to cope with the Saracens behemoth landing in their division?

by Khouli Khan Mon 20 Jan 2020, 8:55 am

Irish Londoner wrote:Am I the only one who is concerned that Saracens were even allowed to choose between relegation and opening their books up to inspection and then were allowed to go "OK we'll take relegation but you're not seeing the books"?

Yes, because the offer should have been 'open up your books and get relegated' or 'don't open up your books and we'll strip you of your titles and you will be relegated'.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 20 Jan 2020, 9:00 am

Khouli Khan wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:What have the rfu got to do with it?

1) Nothing, as they have only superficial governance of the Premiership

or

2) They are complicit with the club that has perpetrated the biggest heist in sporting history. A club so evil that Kim Jong-Un is a fan. A club so pernicious that even the arch cynic that is SecretFly (love ya really) has grudging respect.

The real issue is that the Salary Cap manager has, until now, been required to work only from the information submitted by the clubs. There could be other teams deliberately breaking the cap, though nowhere near to the level Sarries did, who have utilised the same evasion. This though is not an RFU thing, it is a PRL thing. Which we should all remember is owned by the clubs.

In rugby terms, they have - pretty much.

Saracens are cheats, and to some people, that within sport is a truly evil crime - in fact, there can be little worse. And its about time some people woke up to the disrepute they've brought to the sport.

Saracens have cheated, that is a given.

Arguably PRL have been complicit by not enforcing the rules.

RFU however have very little interaction with these proceedings. I am usually happy to bash the RFU, but prefer to wait for things they have control over.

by Khouli Khan Mon 20 Jan 2020, 9:04 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Khouli Khan wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:What have the rfu got to do with it?

1) Nothing, as they have only superficial governance of the Premiership

or

2) They are complicit with the club that has perpetrated the biggest heist in sporting history. A club so evil that Kim Jong-Un is a fan. A club so pernicious that even the arch cynic that is SecretFly (love ya really) has grudging respect.

The real issue is that the Salary Cap manager has, until now, been required to work only from the information submitted by the clubs. There could be other teams deliberately breaking the cap, though nowhere near to the level Sarries did, who have utilised the same evasion. This though is not an RFU thing, it is a PRL thing. Which we should all remember is owned by the clubs.

In rugby terms, they have - pretty much.

Saracens are cheats, and to some people, that within sport is a truly evil crime - in fact, there can be little worse. And its about time some people woke up to the disrepute they've brought to the sport.

Saracens have cheated, that is a given.

Arguably PRL have been complicit by not enforcing the rules.

RFU however have very little interaction with these proceedings. I am usually happy to bash the RFU, but prefer to wait for things they have control over.

Alright, I can agree with that - but the point I made subsequently was that you did allude to Saracens' crime not actually being that serious, by using sarcastic phrases like 'the biggest heist in sporting history' and 'A club so evil that Kim Jong-Un is a fan' - when actually, what they've done is absolutely abhorrent.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 20 Jan 2020, 9:09 am

I think you're coming from an emotional place on this Khan. You havent really backed up anything you've said.

by TJ Mon 20 Jan 2020, 9:27 am

and says all routes to remedy the situation were closed off

They are now in January. they were not at the beggining of the season. Signing Daly may well have been the last straw. Overspend the salery cap then recruit more expensive players?

Does anyone else think they should be thrown out of the european cup as well? BY being in breech of their home leagues rules they are not eligible for the euro cup. It could be done now with no disruption to the cup

by carpet baboon Mon 20 Jan 2020, 9:33 am

Just listening to the BBC rugby pod. Brendan Venter is very adamant that Saracen's did nothing wrong ( but did some things wrong )and have been unfairly treated, yet then says he dosent have all the information and is going on what he has been told.
Does he still work for Saracens or just a super fan?

by No 7&1/2 Mon 20 Jan 2020, 9:34 am

Toulouse for the bye. Dont think anyone can really throw them out now though. There will be a few people hoping they dont win it though else it'll be a bit of farce not having them in next year.

by carpet baboon Mon 20 Jan 2020, 9:42 am

Also Brendan says they didn't buy a team then goes on to use strettle and ashton as examples of players they had to let go, but they are two players they did buy in not through there academy.
It seemed very confused

by Khouli Khan Mon 20 Jan 2020, 9:46 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think you're coming from an emotional place on this Khan. You havent really backed up anything you've said.

I don't need to back up what i've said with regards to Saracens being cheats. That's proven.

The only other thing i've said is to imply that the PRL and to a very minor extent, the RFU have been complicit in this cheating - I can't prove that. but I never stated it was fact in the first place so I don't need to back it up. But lets be honest, who would be surprised if it wasn't later proven.

Not me.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 20 Jan 2020, 9:49 am

I've not asked a question to you regarding whether saracens cheated. These were the questions you havent answered: Again what has it to do with the rfu. What jurisdiction do they have? In terms of saracens having tentacles in the prl what do you mean exactly?
Are Exeter guilty as they form part of the prl?

I've not asked you to prove anything.

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