Scotland WC Chat

by **RDW** Mon 18 Mar 2019, 8:39 am

First topic message reminder :

FORWARDS (23)

John Barclay (Edinburgh) – 71 caps; Rugby World Cup 2007 and 2011
Simon Berghan (Edinburgh) – 19 caps
Jamie Bhatti (Glasgow Warriors) – 13 caps
Magnus Bradbury (Edinburgh) – 7 caps
Fraser Brown (Glasgow Warriors) – 42 caps; Rugby World Cup 2015
Allan Dell (Edinburgh) – 22 caps
Matt Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) – 3 caps
Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) – 19 caps
Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh) – 33 caps; Rugby World Cup 2015
Gary Graham (Newcastle Falcons) – 2 caps
Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors) – 51 caps; Rugby World Cup 2015
Stuart McInally (Edinburgh) – 27 caps
Willem Nel (Edinburgh) – 29 caps; Rugby World Cup 2015
Gordon Reid (London Irish) – 34 caps; Rugby World Cup 2015
Jamie Ritchie (Edinburgh) – 10 caps
Sam Skinner (Exeter Chiefs) – 5 caps
Grant Stewart (Glasgow Warriors) – uncapped
Josh Strauss (Sale Sharks) – 22 caps; Rugby World Cup 2015
Blade Thomson (Scarlets) – uncapped
Ben Toolis (Edinburgh) – 18 caps
George Turner (Glasgow Warriors) – 5 caps
Hamish Watson (Edinburgh) – 25 caps
Ryan Wilson (Glasgow Warriors) – 43 caps; Rugby World Cup 2015

BACKS (19)

Darcy Graham (Edinburgh) – 4 caps
Nick Grigg (Glasgow Warriors) – 9 caps
Chris Harris (Newcastle Falcons) – 8 caps
Adam Hastings (Glasgow Warriors) – 11 caps
Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors) – 67 caps; Rugby World Cup 2015
George Horne (Glasgow Warriors) – 4 caps
Pete Horne (Glasgow Warriors) – 41 caps; Rugby World Cup 2015
Rory Hutchinson (Northampton Saints) – uncapped
Huw Jones (Glasgow Warriors) – 21 caps
Sam Johnson (Glasgow Warriors) – 4 caps
Blair Kinghorn (Edinburgh) – 11 caps
Greig Laidlaw (Clermont Auvergne) – 71 caps; Rugby World Cup 2015
Sean Maitland (Saracens) – 40 caps; Rugby World Cup 2015
Byron McGuigan (Sale Sharks) – 8 caps
Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors) – 24 caps
Henry Pyrgos (Edinburgh) – 27 caps; Rugby World Cup 2015
Finn Russell (Racing 92) – 44 caps; Rugby World Cup 2015
Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors) – 50 caps; Rugby World Cup 2015
Duncan Taylor (Saracens) – 21 caps

World Cup Warmups

France V Scotland
Scotland V France
Georgia V Scotland
Scotland V Georgia

World Cup Fixtures

Ireland v Scotland
International Stadium Yokohama, Yokohama
Sunday 22nd September 2019
Kick Off: 8:45am

Scotland v Samoa
Kobe Misaki Stadium, Kobe
Monday 30th September 2019
Kick Off: 11:15am

Scotland v Russia
Shizuoka Stadium Ecopa, Shizuoka
Wednesday 9th October 2019
Kick Off: 8:15am

Japan v Scotland
International Stadium Yokohama, Yokohama
Sunday 13th October 2019
Kick Off: 11:45am

by **BigGee** Sun 22 Sep 2019, 2:30 pm

International constraints are not like club ones.

Gatland certainly spends a decent amount of the year back in NZ with his familly.

Who is to say, but he might be agreeable to that sort of a deal, where he could come and go a bit more than the 10 month grind of s club season

by **RDW** Sun 22 Sep 2019, 2:49 pm

So trying to sift through the wreckage...

Front row

Starters generally held their own against a powerful unit - there was the usual refereeing lottery on occasion. None of them made much of an impact around the pitch though, including McInally who was very quiet. And not just in a playing sense - I didn't see him speak to Barnes once to highlight what the Irish were up to.

2nd row

Their counterparts made game changing interventions - ours didn't. Gilchrist at least put himself forward for carries whereas Gray was fairly anonymous. Our lineout also failed at key times - again. I think we need one of those two either combined with Cummings for his carrying or Toolis for his lineout abilities. They don't compliment each other as a pair.

Back row

Comprehensively played off the park. Other than as a lineout option Wilson was AWOL all game. Unfortunately I'm coming round to the idea that Barclay does appear to be past it - he should be match fit by now but looked way off the pace. Thompson added real impetus when he came on.

Assuming Bradbury comes into the squad I'd put him straight in the starting team - we desperately need physicality and go forwards. Ritchie to bring energy and work rate.

Halfbacks

Unfortunately today was the day we were reminded about Laidlaw's limitations. Price brought a lot of energy when he came on.

Russell tried a lot and it pretty much never came off. He was part of the lack of control and the horrible rush to do something immediately from first phase.

Centres

Offered very little as a unit. Who would have thought after barely any time together! I think we've been so desperate for Taylor to be good that we've been blinding by the fact he's actually not done very much. Toonie took a risk on him and it's not paying off so far.

Harris brought a lot more direction band hard running in attack - is it time we put our faith in him??

Back 3

Hogg was trying too hard but it never came off. He also seemed to forget how to pass! Maitland made a nice break but also looked quite lethargic. Seymour continues to bring nothing to the team and looks shot of confidence - Graham has to replace him.

My team for Samoa - seeks like a knee jerk reaction but I genuinely think we need it:

Dell
McInally
Nel
Gilchrist
Cummings
Bradbury
Ritchie
Thompson

Price
Russell
Maitland
Johnson
Harris
Graham
Hogg

Subs - Reid, Brown, Berghan, Gray, Wilson, Laidlaw (in case of emergency), Hastings, Taylor

by TJ Sun 22 Sep 2019, 2:56 pm

Leadership and tactics were the main issues for me. Ireland imposed their gameplan and also countered scotlands denying the backs space. Add that to our forwards getting no go forward at all and the backs were on a hiding to nothing.

I saw nothing wrong with laidlaws game - he was not slow at all. His passing is so crisp and accurate.

by TheMildlyFranticLlama Sun 22 Sep 2019, 3:05 pm

As much as I love him, Russell was almost totally dogsh1t today. No composure and tried to win the match with every touch. The very worst of him

by **BigGee** Sun 22 Sep 2019, 3:48 pm

Thats what happens when he gets slow ball though and when you end up chasing the game.

I'd be prepared to give Johnson/Taylor another try but Harris pressing hard for a start, whatever we have said about him in the past, at least he seems to want it!

by **RDW** Sun 22 Sep 2019, 3:49 pm

TJ wrote:Leadership and tactics were the main issues for me. Ireland imposed their gameplan and also countered scotlands denying the backs space. Add that to our forwards getting no go forward at all and the backs were on a hiding to nothing.

I saw nothing wrong with laidlaws game - he was not slow at all. His passing is so crisp and accurate.

His passing was ok but that's not the point - he offers no threat from 9 and his first thought is always to slow things down, not speed them up!

by **NeilyBroon** Sun 22 Sep 2019, 3:53 pm

Aye harris was one of the few to put his hand up today. I am prepared to eat my words and would like him starting against samoa. However more than anything it shows the madness that Toonie left Hutchinson behind.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun 22 Sep 2019, 7:10 pm

Lengthy twitter rant from a Scotland supporter spreads the blame quite widely.

https://twitter.com/DeesideCybernat/status/1175700778352353286

by **RDW** Sun 22 Sep 2019, 7:16 pm

That is indeed quite the rant, although perhaps not surprising from someone who proudly calls himself a cybernat!

Surprised he didn't get into there that it's all Westminster's fault.

by SecretFly Sun 22 Sep 2019, 7:23 pm

RDW wrote:That is indeed quite the rant, although perhaps not surprising from someone who proudly calls himself a cybernat!

Surprised he didn't get into there that it's all Westminster's fault.

.... and Trump, AND Trump! Him being part Scottish an' all.

by TJ Sun 22 Sep 2019, 8:38 pm

Stats for the ireland game make painful reading. Overall not too bad but look into it a bit more? Forwards - our top carrier was Barclay - 9 carries for 12m. No one else made double figures!

Stander 16 for 42m
Henderson 7 for 32m

~Thats where the game was lost. No go forward from the forewards = Irish defense being well prepared and reading the backs moves = no space for the backs.

by **NeilyBroon** Sun 22 Sep 2019, 8:47 pm

We didn't play enough phases to even get any go forward from the forwards

by TJ Sun 22 Sep 2019, 8:58 pm

65 carries from the forwards

by tigertattie Sun 22 Sep 2019, 9:01 pm

Barclay doing the most carries but folk calling for his head.

We’ve got other passengers to cull yet like Wilson and Gray before we go looking at Barclay.

by TJ Sun 22 Sep 2019, 9:15 pm

wilson certainly was a complete passenger. Surely thats his last game? He didn't even start a fight FFS! 5 passes, 8 carries, 6m gained 3 turnovers conceded, 10 tackles.

by alive555 Sun 22 Sep 2019, 9:34 pm

So your number 8 gains 6 m

Lol

by TJ Sun 22 Sep 2019, 9:42 pm

Yup

Pure mince

by tigertattie Sun 22 Sep 2019, 10:08 pm

alive555 wrote:So your number 8 gains 6 m

Lol

Tenner says he’s still in the match squad next week.

He plays above the ground though.

Farcical. At least Scott Johnson knew he was crap at the job

by 123456789. Sun 22 Sep 2019, 10:18 pm

At least that’s our traditional thumping loss for an opener out the way. Our lack of Plan B is worrying. It’s fine wanting to play the fastest rugby in the world. It’s praiseworthy to want to entertain. But when it doesn’t work we have to have a plan B. On the biggest occasions running out and trying to chuck the ball here, there and everywhere faster than anyone has ever before simply doesn’t seem to be working.

So what’s the solution? The ultimate one is creating a time machine back to 2017 and retaining Vern Cotter. Ultimately the CEO’s business background meant that he panicked when Gregor Townsend said he wanted a new challenge. Determining that the optics of a young, talented Scottish coach leaving wouldn’t play well he gave him the top job. Now his lack of experience and our lack of Plan B are almost unquestionably connected.
Giving Big Vern 2-3 more years to finish his project would have made far more sense. Perhaps even getting Dave Rennie to take over from him (although Glasgow have at best treaded water under his leadership). In the mean time Townsend could have been in France, England and maybe even the Southern Hemisphere. Gaining the experience, working out a plan B. There’s nothing like patience in rugby.
The fact is we don’t have a time machine and things aren’t as bad as they seem. I certainly don’t think that Cybernat’s geographic analysis of Scottish rugby is relevant to today’s game. We do have really bloody good players. It is also worth considering what we have achieved under Townsend; the best result against England in 36 years, the best away result against England in 35 years, our best ever result against Australia, our closest game against New Zealand in a long, long time. We’ve also brought a few younger lads through in that time. Today was a poor result, and features in a litany of poor results in recent years. They did not arrive with Townsend. There’s little doubt that there’s an inherent softness that goes to the core of Scottish rugby. The problem is that whilst Cotter appeared to be the antidote, Townsend is the embodiment.
In terms of playing personnel, we are in a much better place than we’ve been in a long time. Again, if Roy Keane was Alex Ferguson’s torch carrier on the pitch then Finn Russell is Townsend’s. On good days he’s brilliant, he takes teams apart in a way that no Scottish stand-off has in decades. However there is no Plan B. There’s no moments of control on the big occasions. That is probably the natural result of playing first for Townsend’s Glasgow and then for the Paris globetrotters. Thing is, we’ve seen this year even at Racing that his all-singing all-dancing attack needs tweaked in the big games. I am more concerned about Hogg, he’s still brilliant but he seems to have lost a yard of pace in recent times. Perhaps since his hip troubles. Around 2008 O’Driscoll had put on a bit of bulk and a bit of pace had gone with it. In 2009 he deliberately lost weight and altered his weights programme. We all know what happened next. Now I’m not suggesting that unless Hogg gets on the 5:2 we’ll repeat 1990 in 2020. It just seems a while since he’s terrorised a team the way he did in 2017. I honestly can’t think of an individual performance as good as his against New Zealand.
My issue is that unless the next few weeks are utterly catastrophic nothing is going to change. We should beat Samoa, Japan and Russia with some to spare. Then we’re in the quarter-finals and everything will stay the same. I’ve seen some of the Irish former players comments on the games show them to be utterly contemptuous of the Scottish game. The fact is that Ireland has a similar rugby history (perhaps even lesser) than us, similar geography, similar economics and demographics. There is no reason whatsoever for them to be better than us. So the logical thing is for the SRU is to model our system on the Irish one.

by reallybored Mon 23 Sep 2019, 1:00 am

We're severely lacking leadership, I don't think the captaincy sits well with McInally and for all the praise of Laidlaw & Barclay's leadership it was once again totally absent when needed.

I am so sick of watching THAT Scotland performance, feel like we've seen it countless times over the past 12 months with the occasional decent half thrown in.

We've been the worst team at the RWC so far, by a distance imo.

by **NeilyBroon** Mon 23 Sep 2019, 6:40 am

If I was jim mallinder I'd be making a few calls to agents and reaching out to coaches who could be interested in an international contract. We can minimise the damage if we get someone in pre 6Ns but if not I'd be tempted to have mallinder as an interim head coach (not convinced by danny wilson so far).

I think regardless of how the rest of the pool goes the SRU have to make a bold move and get rid of Toonie. He's shown to be a master of smoke and mirrors and not much else. I do wonder, looking at Ulster, whether most of the previous good stuff we saw was down to McFarland, with the odd flashy backs move paying off. Look at Glasgow and it was the same. The decline seems to have accelerated since his departure and wilson just hasn't had an impact.

Obviously I'd hate to see scotland knocked out at this stage but I'd hate to see us continue on a downward spiral more. We almost need to be knocked out to show toonie for what he is qnd for the sru to take action.

by **BigGee** Mon 23 Sep 2019, 7:02 am

As we suspected, Watson going home with the knee injury, though no official diagnosis of what he has done, nor suggested prognosis.

Bradbury comes in and can officially start training with squad in 48 hours

I wonder who would be the next back rower to be called up if we lose anyone else?

by **NeilyBroon** Mon 23 Sep 2019, 7:29 am

Surely fagerson would be?

Though maybe he'll go with "experience and defensive graft" and bring in Tiny Tim

by **BigGee** Mon 23 Sep 2019, 7:58 am

Yes Fagerson was unlucky and in hindsight should have gone over Wilson or Barclay.

by bsando Mon 23 Sep 2019, 8:23 am

Under Townsend opposition teams have learned that a rush defence nullifies Scotland's attack, their key strength. Ireland's defence won them that game yesterday. Wales also applied a similar rush defence tactic against us in the 6N to great affect.

Schmidt knew Russell was more likely than not going to throw a pass than not throw one. By getting the Irish line to push up hard onto him Russell had to react quickly. He got his passes away yesterday but the Irish defence forced a lot of Scottish mistakes. Taylor forced a long pass to no one early on and that lead to the first try. If you rewatch it, he actually had a 3 on 2 with a far easier pass to Johnson who would have been able to draw in Ringrose and a single Irish defender out wide. A subsequent pass to Maitland would have been a very good attacking opportunity. Later in the game Seymour missed a Russell pass after some rare Scottish pressure being applied. All that work was ruined by the Irish rush defence as an Irish defender booted it up field, cruelly hitting the post that lead to an Irish 5m scrum and try. Had that pass gone to hand, Seymour may have got through the gap and Scotland would have been deep in Ireland's 22. We've said it a million times but small margins in test rugby.

So for Townsend and his coaching team, how are they going to deal with strong defences that inevitably come with tougher sides? We saw this year against Italy, Georgia and France at home that Scotland can create fantastic trys against easier defences. Yet that first half against England, the Ireland game, the Wales game, the France away games, Scotland struggled really badly.

The plan B answer is Scotland need to be able to build pressure against bigger teams and not just through their backline and kicking for territory. Townsend's Scotland has become too predictable. Teams know Scotland don't want to attack via the forwards when they're attacking in the midfield or opposition half. Scotland just want to find a good platform to get the ball to Russell so he can either feed the backline or kick it. More often than not, Scotland only go through a handful of phases via the forwards in the midfield. The exception is when they are in the opposition 22. I'd really like to see Scotland batter teams up front a bit more in that midfield area and be a bit more patient. It doesn't have to be all the time, kicking is important too, but yesterday Scotland were trying to beat players who were not tired at all and superior fitness surely calls for your side to be the one making the most carries. Scotland made 116 to Ireland's 117 yesterday. Scotland need to be upping that to 140+ 30-40 more than the opposition and it's their forwrds who need to making up those numbers.

by **RDW** Mon 23 Sep 2019, 8:36 am

Realy shame for Hamish - hopefully it's not a serious 9 month to a year injury. It certainly didn't look good!

Leaves us in a tricky position for the Russia game too with Ritchie now the only real 7 in the squad. Barclay or Wilson I suppose.

by **RDW** Mon 23 Sep 2019, 8:49 am

So Hogg said after the game something like "we'll learn from this experience and be better". I appreciate there's not much more he could say but these words are sounding pretty hollow given how many times we have been in this position the last few years - we're not learning our lessons.

On the plus side at least we know from previous experience there's a good chance we will be significantly better against Samoa and win comfortably, as that's what we tend to do after a sobering loss. Problem is it shouldn't take getting humped to remember that you need to try hard and play well at international level to get a win!

by tigertattie Mon 23 Sep 2019, 9:38 am

Gutted for Watson. Hopefully Bradbury can put his hand up and show he should have gone over the Adam West impersonator.

It’s a real shame that Watson was injured but it’s all the more frustrating that it happened from an illegal clear out. There’s a reason in at the side and off feet rules are there and it’s not just to keep the ball available, it’s to stop players getting cabbaged.

The breakdown is becoming an absolute mess and refs simply can’t keep up with the pace on everything. Sounds mental I know but I think we’ll need to go the way of nfl and have a few more refs on the park. Only for internationals due to the speed those games are played at.

by **RDW** Mon 23 Sep 2019, 9:40 am

There certainly wasn't any malice at all in the clear out, but one of the players came in clearly from the side (Furlong I think) when Watson was already being held by someone else, and the twist caused the damage.

by **RDW** Mon 23 Sep 2019, 10:01 am

Worth saying that this is probably been the most angry social media backlash I've seen after a Scotland game. Of course there's still the odd 'you're not a true fan if you say bad things about the team' Facebook brigade but generally there is a lot of anger about the performance.

The players and coaches are going to be in for a torrid week I reckon. And rightly so!

by Tramptastic Mon 23 Sep 2019, 10:05 am

So we had zero go-forward from our forwards on Saturday. Townsend doesn't like picking players who's best skill is generating go forward ball and for a while this has been a case of "because we don't have forwards who can do that".

However, we do now have these players - Bradbury is one, Thomson is another, Richie Gray is our best lock for it. We know the situation with Gray so thats excusable but why oh why did Wilson start and Thomson was on the bench? I know Wilson is good for morale, great for it, but why pick him to start against Ireland???

We don't even pick backs that renowned for hard carries. Dunbar has gone and we haven't picked anybody who can take up his mantle of being Mr Reliable!

You can't play international rugby without being able to generate go-forward ball, you need a few big lads who can make a few yards with every carry, we don't pick em, we don't get over the gainline which means our backs are running at a settled, confident rush defence that blitzes our main attacking weapons and totally nullifies us. There's rugby basics and one of them is being able to generate quick ball. Townsend is ignoring this basic tenet of rugby and we are getting hammered by physical sides. Idiotic.

by **RDW** Mon 23 Sep 2019, 10:07 am

Tramptastic wrote:So we had zero go-forward from our forwards on Saturday. Townsend doesn't like picking players who's best skill is generating go forward ball and for a while this has been a case of "because we don't have forwards who can do that".

However, we do now have these players - Bradbury is one, Thomson is another, Richie Gray is our best lock for it. We know the situation with Gray so thats excusable but why oh why did Wilson start and Thomson was on the bench? I know Wilson is good for morale, great for it, but why pick him to start against Ireland???

We don't even pick backs that renowned for hard carries. Dunbar has gone and we haven't picked anybody who can take up his mantle of being Mr Reliable!

You can't play international rugby without being able to generate go-forward ball, you need a few big lads who can make a few yards with every carry, we don't pick em, we don't get over the gainline which means our backs are running at a settled, confident rush defence that blitzes our main attacking weapons and totally nullifies us. There's rugby basics and one of them is being able to generate quick ball. Townsend is ignoring this basic tenet of rugby and we are getting hammered by physical sides. Idiotic.

This. And I remember numerous games where we've been saying the same things in the postmortem!

by Tramptastic Mon 23 Sep 2019, 10:21 am

It's rinse and repeat! The players either have an overinflated sense of achievement - 1 Glasgow Pro12 final win is the only silver ware any of them have won (outside of Taylor and Maitland at Sarries). They demand respect without actually earning it (see Horne buffing himself up on the bbc or Laidlaw talking about himself at any time) and none of them can graft well enough.

I'm sick of the highs and lows with this team. The England match has papered over the cracks, can anyone remember we were 31-0 down after 30 minutes??? we were 20-3 down after 20 minutes against Ireland!! There's something fundamentally wrong with this team either from picking players who are ill suited to a game plan or a game plan that is ill suited to these players. And an attitude that beggars belief.

by EWT Spoons Mon 23 Sep 2019, 11:01 am

Three biggest issues as I see it currently:
1. Defense - It's non existent. Whenever Ireland got into a position to get near our line, they came away with points. I think only on one occasion we managed to keep them out. That's shocking! Any team watching will know that if they ping the ball down towards our 22 and go for a driving maul there is at least an 80% chance they're coming away with a try.

2. Leadership - I'm a big fan of McInally, but he doesn't speak to the ref or really anyone that much, it's more a lead by example type of deal with him. We could do with someone who can speak to the ref, like Barclay used to when he was captain. It's not going to happen but Ritchie would actually be a good option. He's captained through the age grades and is pretty vocal on the park. But as I say that won't happen as he's not guaranteed his place. Mind you with losing the Mish maybe he is.

3. Composure/an actual plan - I might be doing them a disservice as they might have a plan, but it just looks like they've been told "fling it about lads" which if a team lets us play is great, however if a team is organised and close us down, it's worse than useless. Russell was especially bad for this, but the whole team was to an extent. Offloading to players who are surrounded by the opposition rather than just going to ground. I get we're looking to play fast rugby, but if all you're doing is putting a teammate under more pressure and more likely to be turned over then what is the point.

I said it when he was appointed, I don't think Toonie justified getting the position over Vern, yes he was likely to leave Glasgow and try his hand somewhere else, but that would have been a positive, he would have learned his trade in a different environment and would likely have come back a better coach. I'm not saying with Vern we'd be winning this game either mind you, but at least we'd be competitive, that performance on Sunday was inept.

by Old Man Mon 23 Sep 2019, 11:15 am

EWT Spoons wrote:Three biggest issues as I see it currently:
1. Defense - It's non existent. Whenever Ireland got into a position to get near our line, they came away with points. I think only on one occasion we managed to keep them out. That's shocking! Any team watching will know that if they ping the ball down towards our 22 and go for a driving maul there is at least an 80% chance they're coming away with a try.

2. Leadership - I'm a big fan of McInally, but he doesn't speak to the ref or really anyone that much, it's more a lead by example type of deal with him. We could do with someone who can speak to the ref, like Barclay used to when he was captain. It's not going to happen but Ritchie would actually be a good option. He's captained through the age grades and is pretty vocal on the park. But as I say that won't happen as he's not guaranteed his place. Mind you with losing the Mish maybe he is.

3. Composure/an actual plan - I might be doing them a disservice as they might have a plan, but it just looks like they've been told "fling it about lads" which if a team lets us play is great, however if a team is organised and close us down, it's worse than useless. Russell was especially bad for this, but the whole team was to an extent. Offloading to players who are surrounded by the opposition rather than just going to ground. I get we're looking to play fast rugby, but if all you're doing is putting a teammate under more pressure and more likely to be turned over then what is the point.

I said it when he was appointed, I don't think Toonie justified getting the position over Vern, yes he was likely to leave Glasgow and try his hand somewhere else, but that would have been a positive, he would have learned his trade in a different environment and would likely have come back a better coach. I'm not saying with Vern we'd be winning this game either mind you, but at least we'd be competitive, that performance on Sunday was inept.

It is very difficult to have good defensive structures when the plan is run everything, I also noticed a number of no look passes from your fly half, handling overall was poor.

During a RWC structure is important, game management need structure.

by Tramptastic Mon 23 Sep 2019, 11:53 am

I think one of the worst things was seeing Scotland just not react to Irelands blitz. Russell should have been firing in little chips and grubbers through the onrushing defence early on which would have slowed their rush right down

by **RDW** Mon 23 Sep 2019, 11:54 am

https://www.606v2.com/t69063-scotland-v-samoa-monday-30th-september-1115-ko-bst

by EST Mon 23 Sep 2019, 12:23 pm

RDW wrote:
Tramptastic wrote:So we had zero go-forward from our forwards on Saturday. Townsend doesn't like picking players who's best skill is generating go forward ball and for a while this has been a case of "because we don't have forwards who can do that".

However, we do now have these players - Bradbury is one, Thomson is another, Richie Gray is our best lock for it. We know the situation with Gray so thats excusable but why oh why did Wilson start and Thomson was on the bench? I know Wilson is good for morale, great for it, but why pick him to start against Ireland???

We don't even pick backs that renowned for hard carries. Dunbar has gone and we haven't picked anybody who can take up his mantle of being Mr Reliable!

You can't play international rugby without being able to generate go-forward ball, you need a few big lads who can make a few yards with every carry, we don't pick em, we don't get over the gainline which means our backs are running at a settled, confident rush defence that blitzes our main attacking weapons and totally nullifies us. There's rugby basics and one of them is being able to generate quick ball. Townsend is ignoring this basic tenet of rugby and we are getting hammered by physical sides. Idiotic.

This. And I remember numerous games where we've been saying the same things in the postmortem!

This *2.

It is such an obvious truth that has happened so often, that I begin to wonder how/why Toonie hasn't addressed it. He surely must have a reason, i'd love to hear a journo grill him on it.

In response to the comment on a lack of game plan, I was really interested to see how the AB's countered the boks blitz defence. Their first instinct was to constantly go up the blind side, nullifying the blitz by playing in a really narrow channel and sucking in more defenders from the openside, only when did they get in behind the saffas did they put some air on the ball. Correspond that with our shaming, and I honestly couldn't tell you what our plan was. Not once did we attempt to truck Taylor or Johnson up the middle, we didn't seem to have a discernible shape or structure. I nearly punched the TV when we tried that ridiculously intricate move that led to Conway kicking it through before their third try.

by 123456789. Mon 23 Sep 2019, 12:31 pm

Not much point predicting Townsend to go. The SRU are enraptured by him. I’ve said it a few times. The World Cup features too heavily in Scotland’s focus. Ultimately if we lose to Ireland, win the other three and then crash out in the quarters then all will go on as usual. If we beat New Zealand or South Africa then he’ll be hailed as a genius. If we lose to Japan then he’ll have to go. The issue is that there could be one try or one penalty or one missed tackle between those eventualities.
The frustration is that we won’t win anything until we find consistency. Yet every single series and every game we start poorly.

by bsando Mon 23 Sep 2019, 1:35 pm

bsando wrote:Under Townsend opposition teams have learned that a rush defence nullifies Scotland's attack, their key strength. Ireland's defence won them that game yesterday. Wales also applied a similar rush defence tactic against us in the 6N to great affect.

Schmidt knew Russell was more likely than not going to throw a pass than not throw one. By getting the Irish line to push up hard onto him Russell had to react quickly. He got his passes away yesterday but the Irish defence forced a lot of Scottish mistakes. Taylor forced a long pass to no one early on and that lead to the first try. If you rewatch it, he actually had a 3 on 2 with a far easier pass to Johnson who would have been able to draw in Ringrose and a single Irish defender out wide. A subsequent pass to Maitland would have been a very good attacking opportunity. Later in the game Seymour missed a Russell pass after some rare Scottish pressure being applied. All that work was ruined by the Irish rush defence as an Irish defender booted it up field, cruelly hitting the post that lead to an Irish 5m scrum and try. Had that pass gone to hand, Seymour may have got through the gap and Scotland would have been deep in Ireland's 22. We've said it a million times but small margins in test rugby.

So for Townsend and his coaching team, how are they going to deal with strong defences that inevitably come with tougher sides? We saw this year against Italy, Georgia and France at home that Scotland can create fantastic trys against easier defences. Yet that first half against England, the Ireland game, the Wales game, the France away games, Scotland struggled really badly.

The plan B answer is Scotland need to be able to build pressure against bigger teams and not just through their backline and kicking for territory. Townsend's Scotland has become too predictable. Teams know Scotland don't want to attack via the forwards when they're attacking in the midfield or opposition half. Scotland just want to find a good platform to get the ball to Russell so he can either feed the backline or kick it. More often than not, Scotland only go through a handful of phases via the forwards in the midfield. The exception is when they are in the opposition 22. I'd really like to see Scotland batter teams up front a bit more in that midfield area and be a bit more patient. It doesn't have to be all the time, kicking is important too, but yesterday Scotland were trying to beat players who were not tired at all and superior fitness surely calls for your side to be the one making the most carries. Scotland made 116 to Ireland's 117 yesterday. Scotland need to be upping that to 140+ 30-40 more than the opposition and it's their forwrds who need to making up those numbers.

http://www.rugbyworldcup.com/news/479964

So to add to my earlier post, it seems someone in the RWC noticed the same thing regarding the Irish blitz fefence. They have some great examples there too from the match.

by **NeilyBroon** Mon 23 Sep 2019, 1:48 pm

SRU have just posted an article resharing Toonies post match review. Every time i see "We've got to win the next 3 games" and "we didnt play with enough energy" my blood pressure rises a wee bit.

Thanks for pointing out the obvious whilst failing to address the actual game plan and skills issues. Good work there Toonie.

by Tramptastic Mon 23 Sep 2019, 3:02 pm

I'd like to know why he doesn't pick the big bruisers. If it's anything along the lines of "they don't fit the game plan" I think i'd snap. You need a balance! Gah!

by 123456789. Mon 23 Sep 2019, 3:38 pm

Watching one of the series of banal political documentaries on the Television currently I was reminded of the famous Neil Kinnock speech: "’ll tell you what happens with impossible promises. You start with far-fetched resolutions. They are then pickled into a rigid dogma, a code, and you go through the years sticking to that, out-dated, mis-placed, irrelevant to the real needs".

We seem to have bought heart and soul into a dogma; that we have to play fast, we have to play loose and we will keep doing that no matter what. We have got stuck into a stasis. But there's no sense of practicality. No sense of simply getting done what we need to get done. Sometimes I wish we could chuck on Dan Parks and Grame Morrison with 20 minutes to go and play the dull stuff, the boring stuff and get stuck in. To see us over the line. Ireland know how to play us. Wales know how to play us. All the while we hear talk of 'energy levels', I think it's more than that. Our defence needs to improve and our attack has to step up. Defensively, I think we have to look at Matt Taylor, regardless of what comes next. At Twickenham in this cycle we have conceded 99 points. At the Millenium we have conceded 61 points. At the Aviva 65 and at the Stade De France 49.

I am not sure how far along Edwards is in terms of moving to France. But we should give absolutely everything to get him in. I think we should be in favour of Townsend's wider motives. Of playing fast and loose, exciting rugby, quick rugby. But we need to have the foundations in place and we need to have another idea of how to play when things aren't working. And yes, we need to toughen up.

by TheMildlyFranticLlama Tue 24 Sep 2019, 4:06 am

While acknowledging the “major blow” of losing Watson, one of Scotland’s most consistent performers in recent seasons, forwards coach Danny Wilson was keen to emphasise what Bradbury – who narrowly missed out on the original 31-man squad – will bring to the party.

“I’m pretty confident that Magnus can come in and bring a ball-carrying presence that we maybe didn’t have, and we showed we didn’t have last night,” said Wilson. “So there is a strength that has been added there.”

Utter madness, the whole rugby supporting public could have told them this when the squad was announced, but it took a pasting from Ireland for the coaches to realise they lack carriers?

by **BigGee** Tue 24 Sep 2019, 6:35 am

So things are going from bad to worse, Ali Price joins Watson on the plane home, ankle i jury not going to recover in time for any more meaningful game time in this WC.

Henry P on his way out as a replacement.

Oh well at least we will get to see what Georgie boy csn do. It could be a great opportunity for him.

by jimbopip Tue 24 Sep 2019, 6:47 am

Fecc!!!

We'll see what Toonie is made of now.
If the Toonie Tram is to be the fastest commute in the world Wee Horn needs to be driver. Also, no passengers.

by **RDW** Tue 24 Sep 2019, 7:37 am

Ah FFS. I'd be amazed if Horne starts against Samoa but I'd be delighted if he did!

by **NeilyBroon** Tue 24 Sep 2019, 7:40 am

This may be finally the chance that horne has long deserved.

Gutted for price. Henry p can consider himself lucly that sam hc already ruled himself out.

by **RDW** Tue 24 Sep 2019, 7:41 am

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:
While acknowledging the “major blow” of losing Watson, one of Scotland’s most consistent performers in recent seasons, forwards coach Danny Wilson was keen to emphasise what Bradbury – who narrowly missed out on the original 31-man squad – will bring to the party.

“I’m pretty confident that Magnus can come in and bring a ball-carrying presence that we maybe didn’t have, and we showed we didn’t have last night,” said Wilson. “So there is a strength that has been added there.”

Utter madness, the whole rugby supporting public could have told them this when the squad was announced, but it took a pasting from Ireland for the coaches to realise they lack carriers?

On Danny Wilson, it's fair to say the jury is very much still out - can't say our pack has been overly great since he took over. And he's been in charge for more than enough time now!

by Tramptastic Tue 24 Sep 2019, 8:33 am

RDW wrote:
TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:
While acknowledging the “major blow” of losing Watson, one of Scotland’s most consistent performers in recent seasons, forwards coach Danny Wilson was keen to emphasise what Bradbury – who narrowly missed out on the original 31-man squad – will bring to the party.

“I’m pretty confident that Magnus can come in and bring a ball-carrying presence that we maybe didn’t have, and we showed we didn’t have last night,” said Wilson. “So there is a strength that has been added there.”

Utter madness, the whole rugby supporting public could have told them this when the squad was announced, but it took a pasting from Ireland for the coaches to realise they lack carriers?

On Danny Wilson, it's fair to say the jury is very much still out - can't say our pack has been overly great since he took over. And he's been in charge for more than enough time now!

Thing is though, we all assume the 31 squad that was picked was all agreed upon by all the coaches so we assume they are all culpable for not picking decent ball carriers.

For all we know Wilson was the one saying "we've nobody who can carry for the hard yards, why have we picked Ryan Wilson???".

Aye the jury is still out on Wilson but we don't know where he stands in regards to disagreements with Townsend. Townsend ultimately has the final word so the buck stops with him.

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