The unofficial International Rankings

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Post by maestegmafia on Wed 28 Aug 2019, 4:17 pm

Wales Online published a piece today with a ranking as they see it, England top of the pile, Ireland a long way down the list.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/rugby-world-cup-power-rankings-16824473

Who do you see as the top 20 teams going into the RWC and in want rank do they sit currently in your opinion...?

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Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 28 Aug 2019, 4:33 pm

Haha, thats good for a laugh. Placing Ireland below Japan, Scotland, Argentina and France you need to have a bit of craic about you.

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Post by Pie on Wed 28 Aug 2019, 5:02 pm

Unofficial rankings are subjective and meaningless QED...

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Post by robbo277 on Wed 28 Aug 2019, 5:43 pm

I've seen lists like these before. They're very reactionary and are designed to change massively week to week. E.g. if Ireland beat Wales away they'd probably be in the top 3.

You could generously call it a talking point, or if you were being harsh you'd call it clickbait. Take your pick.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Wed 28 Aug 2019, 5:48 pm

As long as they are proved to get the top one right, i don't care.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 28 Aug 2019, 7:20 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:As long as they are proved to get the top one right, i don't care.

Nah, does not matter who they rank as top. It uses garbage methodology and is designed to create clickbait and flames.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Wed 28 Aug 2019, 7:35 pm

LT, I totally agree, I was saying that as long as they are right, I don't care about clickbait. When I say right, I mean their number 1 prediction producing a little trophy at the start of November

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 28 Aug 2019, 10:15 pm

Aha. Understand now.

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Post by maestegmafia on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 7:12 am

My personal ranking for top ten would currently be

NZ
SA
England
Wales
Australia
Argentina
Ireland
France
Scotland
Fiji

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 7:30 am

NZ
SA
England
Australia
Wales
Ireland
France
Argentina
Scotland
Japan

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 8:50 am

Augustin Pichot moaning about the official rankings, without really understanding how they work. His main gripe seems to be the low ranking of Argentina, yet they constantly lose home series against much weakened opposition (Wales by choice in 2018, England due to Lions in 2017) and rarely win a match in B&I.

This may come back to bite me com WC but I would rank them 8th at best.

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Post by maestegmafia on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 8:55 am

LondonTiger wrote:Augustin Pichot moaning about the official rankings, without really understanding how they work. His main gripe seems to be the low ranking of Argentina, yet they constantly lose home series against much weakened opposition (Wales by choice in 2018, England due to Lions in 2017) and rarely win a match in B&I.

This may come back to bite me com WC but I would rank them 8th at best.

The way they work rewards consistency. If you win a lot you go higher. NZ haven’t had a great last 12 months. They have lost more than wales but if wales played NZ and the kiwis won they would rightfully be ranked numero uno..!

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 9:00 am

Yep - summer tours avoiding NZ or Oz helps thumbsup

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Post by maestegmafia on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 9:14 am

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Yep - summer tours avoiding NZ or Oz helps thumbsup

Or works in your favour if you win, like England did in Australia a few years ago.

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Post by robbo277 on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 10:03 am

LondonTiger wrote:Augustin Pichot moaning about the official rankings, without really understanding how they work. His main gripe seems to be the low ranking of Argentina, yet they constantly lose home series against much weakened opposition (Wales by choice in 2018, England due to Lions in 2017) and rarely win a match in B&I.

This may come back to bite me com WC but I would rank them 8th at best.

In the last 2 calendar years they have 1 win against Australia away. They've lost 9 in a row, including to Scotland and France who sit in 7th and 8th, as well as those in the top 6.

If they're worried about their ranking, it's because Japan and Fiji have overtaken. In which case they should play more tests against Tier 2 sides and call themselves the best Tier 2 team. If Argentina won just 1 game (home or away) against Fiji they'd overtake them and if they won just 1 game against Japan they'd overtake both. Given the rankings, they'd even gain points if they played any of Georgia, Italy, USA, Tonga or Samoa (on neutral or away ground).

The issue therefore is there's not enough games between the bottom of Tier 1 (which Argentina definitely are) and the top of Tier 2. Due to the Rugby Championship and the fact that there are more Tier 1 teams in the NH than the SH, Argentina can load their calendar exclusively with Tier 1 fixtures. I know their B team play a few Tier 2 fixtures, but their first team hasn't played a Tier 2 team since Georgia at home in June 2017 and have only played 2 this World Cup cycle.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 10:08 am

I've said for a while rankings are what they are. If pichot thinks there can be a definitive ranking list good luck to him but it's impossible for it to be so unless you play everyone home and away during the year at the same stage in their season ie true global season. Never going to happen.

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Post by robbo277 on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 10:12 am

maestegmafia wrote:My personal ranking for top ten would currently be

NZ
SA
England
Wales
Australia
Argentina
Ireland
France
Scotland
Fiji

This is probably quite fair looking at the last couple of years - especially around the top. I'd say NZ are an edge ahead, with England, SA and Wales very closely grouped and Australia and Ireland just below.

For England - we lost to NZ at home by a point in the only game we played against them in 2018. We are 2-2 against South Africa in 2018 (1H, 3A) and 2-2 against Wales across 2018/2019 (2H, 2A).

We beat Australia in the only game we played against them and we've beaten Ireland 3 times. Australia have obviously taken wins against NZ and SA in the last couple of seasons though and Ireland have the 2018 Grand Slam, so that keeps them above the rest. Ireland possibly just ahead, because they have that trophy, although Australia have had a better 2019 so far.

France and Scotland are very evenly matched, I think they're 2-2 over the past couple of years and although both have notable wins neither have been particularly consistent.

Argentina I'd say should be below these, but they've been covered more closely in my post above.

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Post by NeilyBroon on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 10:27 am

Scotland 7th? Some journos definitely don't keep up to date with our team 😂 I'd put us 10th at best right now.
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Post by bsando on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 10:30 am

On current form I'd probably have

NZ
SA
ENG
AUS
WAL
SCO
IRE
FRA
JAP
FIJ

NZ have been shakey this year but they're still the ones to beat. SA look a force who are rising very nicely and have some excellent emerging talent. Eng look like they've shaken off their critics since the 6N, brought key players up to fitness and have some nice combinations working. Aus actually look dangerous again but defence is still questionable. Wales still a solid defensive team but lack the attacking stars of the teams above IMO. Scotland shook off a full strength France after a poor start and look like they're back on track. Ireland look a shadow of the side in 2018 but are still building match fitness and testing players by looks of it. France looked awesome against a 2nd string Scotland at home but looked weak away against a close to full strength Scotland. Japan building very nicely with some solid wins and a good balance of attack and defence. Argentina slightly ahead of Fiji and Italy due to the quality of teams they've had to play recently but they should be doing better really.

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Post by LordDowlais on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 11:07 am

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Yep - summer tours avoiding NZ or Oz helps thumbsup

England avoided New Zealand for four years until they played them last year. Since 2014 England have played New Zealand once. Wales toured New Zealand in 2016 and played them in the AI's the year after.

Looks as though only one nation has been avoiding the All Blacks. Very Happy

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 11:25 am

LordDowlais wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Yep - summer tours avoiding NZ or Oz helps thumbsup

England avoided New Zealand for four years until they played them last year. Since 2014 England have played New Zealand once. Wales toured New Zealand in 2016 and played them in the AI's the year after.

Looks as though only one nation has been avoiding the All Blacks. Very Happy

Yes I was disappointed we didn’t play them in 2016 but that was down to their exorbitant demands & the financial wrangling.
Last years game was a cracker which we really deserved to win. Lawes should have cut his toe nails.
As MM stated above we had a very successful tour of Oz in 2016 & subsequently beaten them three times in consecutive years since.



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Post by Pete330v2 on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 11:37 am

NZ
ENG
SA
WAL
AUS
IRE
FRA
SCO
JAP
FIJ

I'd be very tempted to push Wales up a place and Ireland down one but this is the definitive list, trust me, I know stuff Wink

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Post by Pie on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 4:00 pm

Eng aren't better than the GS 6 Nations Champions and no 1 ranked tram in the world who they have lost to twin this year.

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Post by lostinwales on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 5:06 pm

Pie wrote:Eng aren't better than the GS 6 Nations Champions and no 1 ranked tram in the world who they have lost to twin this year.

Have you ever had any treatment for that chip on your shoulder?

2-1 this year so far all games won at home. Go back over 2 years it is 2-2. Games from 2016 5-2 to England. Last time Wales won vs England away from Cardiff was a certain game last RWC, although those stats do not allow for all the games when somehow Wales gifted England wins.

But no there isn't much between the teams right now, Wales toughness and defense against England's more potent attack.

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 5:37 pm

Pie wrote:Eng aren't better than the GS 6 Nations Champions and no 1 ranked tram in the world who they have lost to twin this year.

If you are actually talking about trams, then frankly neither England nor Wales have anything to compare with the San Francisco trolley cars.

If you are talking about teams, I would agree with you, as Wales won the only match that actually mattered (containing the strongest teams available to the coach), that Wales have been the better team. It is possible that the four people who have listed England above Wales in their rankings (one each from England, Ireland Scotland & Wales) are basing it on what they expect from the next few months. In the end it is just opinion. And like bumholes we all have an opinion.

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Post by maestegmafia on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 10:08 pm

I based my thoughts on current form

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Post by Taylorman on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 10:43 pm

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Yep - summer tours avoiding NZ or Oz helps thumbsup

Not if you're the Lions... Doh not on the list...

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Post by Taylorman on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 10:47 pm

maestegmafia wrote:I based my thoughts on current form

Yeah if you went on last three months forgetting EVERYTHING before it, definitely England and SA with wales very close by then NZ, only because of the draw with SA and win over Oz.

Ireland wouldnt be that far down but not far off it.

But luckily the last three months results doesnt matter a lot. Jockying for position can have its ups and downs...

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Post by Old Man on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 10:58 pm

Regardless of rankings you have to ask yourself which teams have a better than average chance to win the RWC.

Those teams are NZ, OZ, SA, Wales, Ireland and England in no particular order.

The pool results can pit certain teams together depending on results.

Looking only at the last three months only tells you which teams look like they are peaking, looking at the last 18 months will prove consistency.

Some teams like SA look to be peaking, England as well, but then Wales and New Zealand have been most consistent, teams like Ireland and OZ have shown dips, but also good performances.

Writing any of these teams off is foolish, the finals are one off matches and none of these six teams are invincible.

This RWC is wide open, speculation is just that , speculation.

We are in for a humdinger of a tournament.

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Post by Pie on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 2:59 am

lostinwales wrote:
Pie wrote:Eng aren't better than the GS 6 Nations Champions and no 1 ranked tram in the world who they have lost to twin this year.

Have you ever had any treatment for that chip on your shoulder?

2-1 this year so far all games won at home. Go back over 2 years it is 2-2. Games from 2016 5-2 to England. Last time Wales won vs England away from Cardiff was a certain game last RWC, although those stats do not allow for all the games when somehow Wales gifted England wins.

But no there isn't much between the teams right now, Wales toughness and defense against England's more potent attack.

potent attack? Laugh Laugh Laugh what you mean that potent attack that couldn't even score a try in Cardiff

About as potent as your post.

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Post by Pie on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 3:01 am

Subjective opinions are one thing, results another.

It is farcical t say that the team that squandered another 6 Nations and lost 2-1 to Wales this year is better. Unless you're English/newly promoted MOD

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Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 3:36 am

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Yep - summer tours avoiding NZ or Oz helps thumbsup

England avoided New Zealand for four years until they played them last year. Since 2014 England have played New Zealand once. Wales toured New Zealand in 2016 and played them in the AI's the year after.

Looks as though only one nation has been avoiding the All Blacks. Very Happy

Yes I was disappointed we didn’t play them in 2016 but that was down to their exorbitant demands & the financial wrangling.
Last years game was a cracker which we really deserved to win. Lawes should have cut his toe nails.
As MM stated above we had a very successful tour of Oz in 2016 & subsequently beaten them three times in consecutive years since.

Coming out with this again, seriously?

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 7:24 am

Pie wrote:Subjective opinions are one thing, results another.

It is farcical t say that the team that squandered another 6 Nations and lost 2-1 to Wales this year is better. Unless you're English/newly promoted MOD

I repeat, four people ranked England higher than Wales on this thread. Only one was English which does not fit with your conspiracy theories.

I will repeat my own view - the rankings are a fair reflection of form. Wales deserve to be ranked number 1 and if they keep winning their matches they will stay there fully deservedly.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 4:52 pm

England have been on the wrong end of at least two decisions recently that have affected the result, Lawes' toenails really was a 50/50 call, it just depended on the camera angle you looked at and whether it was at 90 degrees to the touchline where Lawes toenails were. I have seen stills that show him a foot onside and others that show him the same offside, the angles the TMO had where from up-field and showed him slightly (toenail) offside. A decent knowledge of geometry would have produced enough doubt to allow the try as it certainly wasn't obvious and missed by the ref.

The second one is down to gamesmanship, within the Laws, but so far off the standards of sportsmanship and protocol that WR took 3 days to change the protocol into a law to stop it happening again. Legal but definitely against the spirit of the game.

With better referees England would have won one and drawn one.

Wales' wins against England have proved to be very tight; England, the side that some think doesn't have a potent attack put 4 tries past a full strength Wales side the week before (conveniently forgotten) despite them supposedly fantastic defence and with an experimental side.

Even with a full strength side at home, against an again weakened England it took the aforementioned piece of gamesmanship to fashion a win.

Would England the England games have affected the rankings, as far as England are concern, no. Wales, I don't think that they would either wasn't a draw sufficient to go No. 1?

You can't win a RWC if you can only win against the better sides at home, unless you host it and there is little chance of that in the foreseeable future

Are Wales better than England, probably not, more consistent definitely. Have Wales beaten the AB or even come close in recent years, no, have they beaten Australia, yes, but once again at home. Against SA, better record, won the 4 out of 5, but none in SA. England 3 out of 5 against the Boks including one in SA, Australia, 6 out of 6 including 3 away, New Zealand, like Wales 0 out of 5 but only one loss has been by more than 5 points, the nearest Wales have got is 14 points.

It shows that England have a much better record against SH sides and away from home (like in a RWC). Consistency can get you to the top of the rankings, however, surprisingly England have won 19 of the 30 games in the professional era against Wales.

I think it massively ironic that having built the Millennium Stadium in an era when so much effort was put into get Wales recognised as a country, not just a Principality and even get the "country" added to the map of the EU, once they get their wish, they name their stadium "The Principality Stadium".

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 4:57 pm

Great accurate post WPI.

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Post by Taylorman on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 5:28 pm

Pie wrote:Subjective opinions are one thing, results another.

It is farcical t say that the team that squandered another 6 Nations and lost 2-1 to Wales this year is better. Unless you're English/newly promoted MOD

no more farcical to say that the side that has been thrashed four times by the number one side in the last two to three years has just overtaken them in the rankings. never mind any marginal 2-1seys. 4 straight thrashings Laugh home and away.

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Post by Pie on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 5:43 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Pie wrote:Subjective opinions are one thing, results another.

It is farcical t say that the team that squandered another 6 Nations and lost 2-1 to Wales this year is better. Unless you're English/newly promoted MOD

no more farcical to say that the side that has been thrashed four times by the number one side in the last two to three years has just overtaken them in the rankings. never mind any marginal 2-1seys. 4 straight thrashings Laugh home and away.

We still have a better record than NZ hence why we are No 1 and you ain't. Suck it up.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 6:02 pm

Pie wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Pie wrote:Subjective opinions are one thing, results another.

It is farcical t say that the team that squandered another 6 Nations and lost 2-1 to Wales this year is better. Unless you're English/newly promoted MOD

no more farcical to say that the side that has been thrashed four times by the number one side in the last two to three years has just overtaken them in the rankings. never mind any marginal 2-1seys. 4 straight thrashings Laugh home and away.

We still have a better record than NZ hence why we are No 1 and you ain't. Suck it up.

Is that so? As no. 1 it is difficult to pick up meaningful points as you are expected to win against everyone and therefore pick up very little, when you are ranked 7 and start beating the 3-5 ranked sides you pick up a lot of points for still not being very good, good yes but not very good. Wales have picked up good points beating Australia and SA when they were high in the rankings but dropping and also by having a lot of home games against the better sides in the 6N. I cannot see when they have looked even close to being at NZs level.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 6:11 pm

SA and Oz werent high in the rankings when Wales beat them. Beating Ireland and England was probably worth a lot more points wise for Wales.

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 6:14 pm

And also having all those NH teams at the top will make it easier to gain points through the 6 nations games

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Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 7:14 pm

Wales without Anscombe, Faletau, Rob Evans, Lee, Hill, Tipuric, Webb, Liam Williams already beat a full strength England. There’s no sidestepping this most blatant of facts. The reaction from England fans when they lose any and every game is pathetic. Even when they were the best in 2016, their fans on here and social media proved to be the least gracious in WR.
This isn’t a WUM - my response to the upcoming crying at my factual posts. My post is based on years of observations across multiple forums. If you don’t like it try having a look at yourself and then the England fan next to you.

Mods I would suggest separating fans during the World Cup IE, only allow the supporters to comment on the threads regarding their own team. It would be a shame if it comes to that but the simple fact is one group keep ruining this forum - then they have the nerve to complain about the moderation on the feedback thread!

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 7:15 pm

Weird. Ludlam is first choice now. Or someone doesn't follow rugby. Must be 1 of the 2.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 7:18 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Pie wrote:Subjective opinions are one thing, results another.

It is farcical t say that the team that squandered another 6 Nations and lost 2-1 to Wales this year is better. Unless you're English/newly promoted MOD

no more farcical to say that the side that has been thrashed four times by the number one side in the last two to three years has just overtaken them in the rankings. never mind any marginal 2-1seys. 4 straight thrashings Laugh home and away.

Do you like your coach Jabba, and crooked Pichot, not understand the formula? Try again. Now are Wales better than NZ? In my honest opinion, no chance.

So glad I have kiwi friends here who are normal blokes. Go to the forums and you lot are almost up there with the thread-ruiners here.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 7:19 pm

You need to remember that in 2017, Wales were ranked 7th, SA 4th, Aus 5th. Like SA in 2018. Wales were bottom of the heap in terms of the major nations, only France were below them.

By getting a lot better over the next few years they picked up a lot of points that were not available to NZ.

To say that a side that hasn't beaten NZ in the life time of anyone still playing the game at a serious level is daft and shows the inadequacy of the ranking system.

Wales last played NZ in 2017 when they were at their worst, (Wales that is) got thrashed 18-33 at what is now the stadium presumably owned by The Prince of Wales and haven't played them since.

I never thought I would do it, but I agree with our NZ posters, you cannot call yourself the best side in the world if you haven't played the previous number 1 for 2 years and have played all the sides above you when you started your rise when they were on the way down. England for example were falling from 2nd to 5th in the times that Wales were on the rise and still England managed to win 3 out of 5.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 7:25 pm

England didn’t play NZ in the same period. Why don’t they tour NZ often nowadays? When you last lost to NZ you blamed the ref as usual, something you’re still doing after all this time.

I don’t recall anyone here calling Wales THE best, you’re just wumming and the mods continue to allow this to happen whilst non-English posters get moderated for discussing the subject.

I think that we’re doing pretty well lately, considering that Evans, Lee, Hill, Faletau, Tipuric, Webb, Anscombe and L Williams were missing. Shingler and Navidi were also out up until the 2nd half of this most recent game. Why there was so much fuss over the 2nd and 3rd team for England myth, and no mention of our guys missing I don’t know - but that’s how this place goes.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 7:26 pm

Tbf you think Ludlam is first choice. Kinda makes your thoughts on rugby redundant mikey.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 7:30 pm

Must make WPI’s earlier post redundant to you too then. Another worthless post 7.5. At least the WUMs I’m replying to here can be a little more astute, unlike you. It’s so boring reading your posts.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 7:31 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Wales without Anscombe, Faletau, Rob Evans, Lee, Hill, Tipuric, Webb, Liam Williams already beat a full strength England. There’s no sidestepping this most blatant of facts. The reaction from England fans when they lose any and every game is pathetic. Even when they were the best in 2016, their fans on here and social media proved to be the least gracious in WR.
This isn’t a WUM - my response to the upcoming crying at my factual posts. My post is based on years of observations across multiple forums. If you don’t like it try having a look at yourself and then the England fan next to you.

Mods I would suggest separating fans during the World Cup IE, only allow the supporters to comment on the threads regarding their own team. It would be a shame if it comes to that but the simple fact is one group keep ruining this forum - then they have the nerve to complain about the moderation on the feedback thread!

Blimey, all those highlighted will be pleased, they have suddenly become first choice in their positions

Forwards

1 Ellis Genge                           Mako, Marler
2 Luke Cowan-Dickie                        George
3 Dan Cole                                      Sinkler
4 Joe Launchbury                      Lawes, Kruis
5 Maro Itoje
6 Courtney Lawes                 Wilson, Curry
7 Lewis Ludlam                 Underhill
8 Billy Vunipola
Backs

[b]9 Willi Heinz                    Youngs              
10 George Ford (Captain)     Farrell
11 Joe Cokanasiga                May
12 Piers Francis
13 Jonathan Joseph               Manu
14 Anthony Watson
15 Elliot Daly


Of the 15 starters, 5 would be considered to be first choice and there is debate about some of them.

One mans fact is another mans opinion and as we all know, opinions are very rarely factual.

"My post is based on years of observations across multiple forums". Have you  tried resuscitating any cats lately?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 7:33 pm

So you dont consider ludlam first choice then mikey? You're very confused at present.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 7:34 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Must make WPI’s earlier post redundant to you too then. Another worthless post 7.5. At least the WUMs I’m replying to here can be a little more astute, unlike you. It’s so boring reading your posts.

Mikey, I have never stated that Ludlum should be first choice, only that he has had a good start to his international career and that people were forgetting him in their teams for Friday. Please stop putting words in my mouth, a nice pint of IPA would be much better.

"I think that we’re doing pretty well lately, considering that Evans, Lee, Hill, Faletau, Tipuric, Webb, Anscombe and L Williams were missing."

The only person that has been out "forever" in that list is Faletau, Webb is barred due to taking the money, not injury, Anscombe has only just got injured and hasn't necessarily been first choice, Williams has been around most of the last two years. The others are not certain starters of even squad members now Wales have such strength in depth.


Last edited by WELL-PAST-IT on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 7:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

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