Wales and Ireland Two warm up test series Match Thread

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Post by maestegmafia on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 1:46 pm

First topic message reminder :

7th SEPTEMBER 2019
KO: 14:00
IRELAND VS WALES
Aviva Stadium

Ireland

15. Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 91 caps
14. Jordan Larmour (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 15 caps
13. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Leinster) 37 caps
12. Bundee Aki (Galwegians/Connacht) 19 caps
11. Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 77 caps
10. Jonathan Sexton (St Marys College/Leinster) 83 caps
9. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 73 caps

1. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 90 caps
2. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) 119 caps CAPTAIN
3. Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster) 35 caps
4. James Ryan (UCD/Leinster) 18 caps
5. Jean Kleyn (Munster) 2 caps
6. CJ Stander (Shannon/Munster) 32 caps
7. Josh van der Flier (UCD/Leinster) 18 caps
8. Jack Conan (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 15 caps

Replacements
16. Sean Cronin (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 69 caps
17. Dave Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster) 30 caps
18. Andrew Porter (UCD/Leinster) 17 caps
19. Iain Henderson (Queens University/Ulster) 47 caps
20. Rhys Ruddock (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 22
21. Luke McGrath (UCD/Leinster) 13 caps
22. Jack Carty (Buccaneers/Connacht) 6 caps
23. Garry Ringrose (UCD/Leinster) 23 caps


Wales

Leigh Halfpenny (Scarlets); George North (Ospreys), Jonathan Davies (Scarlets), Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets), Josh Adams (Worcester Warriors); Rhys Patchell (Scarlets), Tomos Williams (Cardiff Blues); Wyn Jones (Scarlets), Elliot Dee (Dragons), Tomas Francis (Exeter), Jake Ball (Scarlets), Alun Wyn Jones (capt, Ospreys), Aaron Wainwright (Dragons), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Ross Moriarty (Dragons).

Replacements: Ken Owens (Scarlets), Nicky Smith (Ospreys), Dillon Lewis (Cardiff Blues), Adam Beard (Ospreys), Josh Navidi (Cardiff Blues), Gareth Davies (Scarlets), Dan Biggar (Northampton Saints), Owen Watkin (Ospreys)


Last edited by maestegmafia on Thu 05 Sep 2019, 3:25 pm; edited 4 times in total

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 5:50 pm

Out of the Wales team today Patchel, Lane, and Amos, was certainly on the plane for japan IMO any way.

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Post by maestegmafia on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 5:54 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Out of the Wales team today Patchel, Lane, and Amos, was certainly on the plane for japan IMO any way.


It’s either Lane or Amos, who would you take?

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 5:58 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:Out of the Wales team today Patchel, Lane, and Amos, was certainly on the plane for japan IMO any way.


It’s either Lane or Amos, who would you take?

That is a tough one, I think it would be probably Amos. But would put Lane on stand by.

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Post by maestegmafia on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 6:09 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:Out of the Wales team today Patchel, Lane, and Amos, was certainly on the plane for japan IMO any way.


It’s either Lane or Amos, who would you take?

That is a tough one, I think it would be probably Amos. But would put Lane on stand by.

I think we are guessing that Lane will get in as Patchell will likely go ahead of Evans. Not much in it, Amos has been around a long time and experience counts for a great deal if you want to go far in RWCs.

Depends how many positions we want to cover?

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Post by Poorfour on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 6:15 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Interesting that one-eyed Guns has gone quiet about the scrums. Wtf was Poite’s odd calls all about there? Kilcoyne looked good. The rest of Ireland’s props and hookers were meh. If those guys don’t improve next week then Ireland won’t be much good. Oh well, onto next week!

Wales were dominated in the scrums Mikey, I dont think Wales will be happy with that. Ireland had two tight heads playing and still dominated.

I wouldn’t take too much from that at all.. all four props were playing in their first games of the season pretty much so I don’t think we held great hopes for our scrum..

Bit annoying that Poite wasted so much of everyone’s time resetting again and again rather than just awarding a pen try...

To be honest the yellow card was equally pedantic... this is a friendly kick about, not a competitive match. What we all genuinely want to see is ball in play right...!

It’s not just the players who are warming up for the real thing and under scrutiny from the selectors... the refs in the warm up games will also have been trying to show that they’re on their game and have got their heads around the law tweaks. Letting stuff slide because it’s not in a competition was never on the cards.
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Post by Collapse2005 on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 6:17 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Interesting that one-eyed Guns has gone quiet about the scrums. Wtf was Poite’s odd calls all about there? Kilcoyne looked good. The rest of Ireland’s props and hookers were meh. If those guys don’t improve next week then Ireland won’t be much good. Oh well, onto next week!

Wales were dominated in the scrums Mikey, I dont think Wales will be happy with that. Ireland had two tight heads playing and still dominated.

Where do you get dominated from? The first scrum of the match went to Wales. I agree Ireland got the upper hand but from then on they collapsed a few. Wales won the final scrum but Poite just waved play on and didn’t award us the pen. Thanks to Ireland Poite took a dislike to Brown and to be honest that’s just how scrums go, but it’s still frustrating to watch.

Wales conceded a penalty try, numerous scrum penalties, turn overs and a yellow from the scrum. Ireland dominated Mikey but as Maes rightly points out it was a fairly green Wales front row.

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Post by maestegmafia on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 6:18 pm

Poorfour wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Interesting that one-eyed Guns has gone quiet about the scrums. Wtf was Poite’s odd calls all about there? Kilcoyne looked good. The rest of Ireland’s props and hookers were meh. If those guys don’t improve next week then Ireland won’t be much good. Oh well, onto next week!

Wales were dominated in the scrums Mikey, I dont think Wales will be happy with that. Ireland had two tight heads playing and still dominated.

I wouldn’t take too much from that at all.. all four props were playing in their first games of the season pretty much so I don’t think we held great hopes for our scrum..

Bit annoying that Poite wasted so much of everyone’s time resetting again and again rather than just awarding a pen try...

To be honest the yellow card was equally pedantic... this is a friendly kick about, not a competitive match. What we all genuinely want to see is ball in play right...!

It’s not just the players who are warming up for the real thing and under scrutiny from the selectors... the refs in the warm up games will also have been trying to show that they’re on their game and have got their heads around the law tweaks. Letting stuff slide because it’s not in a competition was never on the cards.

Sadly you might be right.

Not really sure that Poite did himself any favours by dithering with the penalty try for so long.

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Post by maestegmafia on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 6:20 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Interesting that one-eyed Guns has gone quiet about the scrums. Wtf was Poite’s odd calls all about there? Kilcoyne looked good. The rest of Ireland’s props and hookers were meh. If those guys don’t improve next week then Ireland won’t be much good. Oh well, onto next week!

Wales were dominated in the scrums Mikey, I dont think Wales will be happy with that. Ireland had two tight heads playing and still dominated.

Where do you get dominated from? The first scrum of the match went to Wales. I agree Ireland got the upper hand but from then on they collapsed a few. Wales won the final scrum but Poite just waved play on and didn’t award us the pen. Thanks to Ireland Poite took a dislike to Brown and to be honest that’s just how scrums go, but it’s still frustrating to watch.

Wales conceded a penalty try, numerous scrum penalties, turn overs and a yellow from the scrum. Ireland dominated Mikey but as Maes rightly points out it was a fairly green Wales front row.

To be fair Collapse it was that same period that resulted in the yellow card the endless penalties and then the penalty try and god only knows what was going on in that scrum, it’s far too hard to know from watching on the tv.

Whatever happens I take little from it, it was in fact a waste of time for both teams and particularly the fans.

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Post by Poorfour on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 6:34 pm

I was once at a Wayne Barnes talk where he explained that the basic philosophy of reffing the scrum is that the side under pressure can always go backwards. If that’s not happening, then they are probably the ones committing an offence.

Poite is a bit more technical about it - when he is on his game I think he tends to get it right because he tackles it in the right sequence: binds, body angles and then how the scrum moves. He does occasionally get badly conned (as with Australia’s front row dancing to the side like a Broadway chorus line in 2015), but generally I think he calls things pretty well.

I didn’t watch all of the game, and I only saw the end of the build up to the penalty try. But in the scrums I saw the Welsh pack were under pressure and the scrum would have been going backwards if they hadn’t been going down.

Personally, I have never liked the way Gatland’s teams approach scrummaging. They play for penalties rather than to get the ball back in play. They’re pretty good at it and win a fair number of penalties that strictly they shouldn’t. But if you’re going to complain about reset scrums then I would say that a big chunk of the issue starts there.
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Post by Collapse2005 on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 6:36 pm

Poorfour wrote:I was once at a Wayne Barnes talk where he explained that the basic philosophy of reffing the scrum is that the side under pressure can always go backwards. If that’s not happening, then they are probably the ones committing an offence.

Poite is a bit more technical about it - when he is on his game I think he tends to get it right because he tackles it in the right sequence: binds, body angles and then how the scrum moves. He does occasionally get badly conned (as with Australia’s front row dancing to the side like a Broadway chorus line in 2015), but generally I think he calls things pretty well.

I didn’t watch all of the game, and I only saw the end of the build up to the penalty try. But in the scrums I saw the Welsh pack were under pressure and the scrum would have been going backwards if they hadn’t been going down.

Personally, I have never liked the way Gatland’s teams approach scrummaging. They play for penalties rather than to get the ball back in play. They’re pretty good at it and win a fair number of penalties that strictly they shouldn’t. But if you’re going to complain about reset scrums then I would say that a big chunk of the issue starts there.

You`re not wrong with any of that. Good summary.

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Post by The Oracle on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 6:46 pm

Poorfour wrote:I was once at a Wayne Barnes talk where he explained that the basic philosophy of reffing the scrum is that the side under pressure can always go backwards. If that’s not happening, then they are probably the ones committing an offence.

Poite is a bit more technical about it - when he is on his game I think he tends to get it right because he tackles it in the right sequence: binds, body angles and then how the scrum moves. He does occasionally get badly conned (as with Australia’s front row dancing to the side like a Broadway chorus line in 2015), but generally I think he calls things pretty well.

I didn’t watch all of the game, and I only saw the end of the build up to the penalty try. But in the scrums I saw the Welsh pack were under pressure and the scrum would have been going backwards if they hadn’t been going down.

Personally, I have never liked the way Gatland’s teams approach scrummaging. They play for penalties rather than to get the ball back in play. They’re pretty good at it and win a fair number of penalties that strictly they shouldn’t. But if you’re going to complain about reset scrums then I would say that a big chunk of the issue starts there.

I think that is a little bit of an outdated view of Wales. We certainly did play for penalties in the Adam Jones era and when the ‘hit’ was a thing. But since they removed that from the scrum in the last couple of years it was the start of the end of Adam Jones’ career. We have looked to get it out much quicker since. We simply haven’t got the players, or the laws, that favour us at scrum time like they used to. The laws have moved on and so have we!
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Post by maestegmafia on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 6:50 pm

The Oracle wrote:
Poorfour wrote:I was once at a Wayne Barnes talk where he explained that the basic philosophy of reffing the scrum is that the side under pressure can always go backwards. If that’s not happening, then they are probably the ones committing an offence.

Poite is a bit more technical about it - when he is on his game I think he tends to get it right because he tackles it in the right sequence: binds, body angles and then how the scrum moves. He does occasionally get badly conned (as with Australia’s front row dancing to the side like a Broadway chorus line in 2015), but generally I think he calls things pretty well.

I didn’t watch all of the game, and I only saw the end of the build up to the penalty try. But in the scrums I saw the Welsh pack were under pressure and the scrum would have been going backwards if they hadn’t been going down.

Personally, I have never liked the way Gatland’s teams approach scrummaging. They play for penalties rather than to get the ball back in play. They’re pretty good at it and win a fair number of penalties that strictly they shouldn’t. But if you’re going to complain about reset scrums then I would say that a big chunk of the issue starts there.

I think that is a little bit of an outdated view of Wales. We certainly did play for penalties in the Adam Jones era and when the ‘hit’ was a thing. But since they removed that from the scrum in the last couple of years it was the start of the end of Adam Jones’ career. We have looked to get it out much quicker since. We simply haven’t got the players, or the laws, that favour us at scrum time like they used to. The laws have moved on and so have we!

I agree scrums look more like a platform wales use to attack from on their put in. What are you meant to do on the opposition put in, sink, squeeze drive...?

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 7:08 pm

Poorfour wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Interesting that one-eyed Guns has gone quiet about the scrums. Wtf was Poite’s odd calls all about there? Kilcoyne looked good. The rest of Ireland’s props and hookers were meh. If those guys don’t improve next week then Ireland won’t be much good. Oh well, onto next week!

Wales were dominated in the scrums Mikey, I dont think Wales will be happy with that. Ireland had two tight heads playing and still dominated.

I wouldn’t take too much from that at all.. all four props were playing in their first games of the season pretty much so I don’t think we held great hopes for our scrum..

Bit annoying that Poite wasted so much of everyone’s time resetting again and again rather than just awarding a pen try...

To be honest the yellow card was equally pedantic... this is a friendly kick about, not a competitive match. What we all genuinely want to see is ball in play right...!

It’s not just the players who are warming up for the real thing and under scrutiny from the selectors... the refs in the warm up games will also have been trying to show that they’re on their game and have got their heads around the law tweaks. Letting stuff slide because it’s not in a competition was never on the cards.

Oh. Well maybe Aki should’ve seen a card then.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 7:16 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Interesting that one-eyed Guns has gone quiet about the scrums. Wtf was Poite’s odd calls all about there? Kilcoyne looked good. The rest of Ireland’s props and hookers were meh. If those guys don’t improve next week then Ireland won’t be much good. Oh well, onto next week!

Wales were dominated in the scrums Mikey, I dont think Wales will be happy with that. Ireland had two tight heads playing and still dominated.

Where do you get dominated from? The first scrum of the match went to Wales. I agree Ireland got the upper hand but from then on they collapsed a few. Wales won the final scrum but Poite just waved play on and didn’t award us the pen. Thanks to Ireland Poite took a dislike to Brown and to be honest that’s just how scrums go, but it’s still frustrating to watch.

Wales conceded a penalty try, numerous scrum penalties, turn overs and a yellow from the scrum. Ireland dominated Mikey but as Maes rightly points out it was a fairly green Wales front row.

Just asking for a bit more consistency there otherwise it just becomes frustrating to watch, for everyone. You’ve already been given two examples where Wales coulda/shoulda had the penalty by myself and another. When Brown got the card he didn’t do anything, the Ireland TH clearly went to ground first, Ireland did this a couple more times in the second half. Admittedly we were under pressure but not long before the YC it was Wales’ scrum, yet before the scrum began Poite turned it over for some odd reason. Therefore he was overly harsh on one team but as I said it was the Ireland front row that convinced him. To believe that is dominance when it was Ireland’s best front row coming in to do that is pretty delusional. Ireland were better there but all things considered, I don’t believe that’s dominance.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 7:28 pm

Coulda, shoulda, woulda Mikey. The record books will show your scrum played a big part in losing you the game. Ireland were pretty dominant. Cant see the same happening next week though.

I don't see this as much of a win for us realistically. Beating Wales in Cardiff is amazing but this wasn't really a Wales 15.


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Post by SecretFly on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 7:30 pm

?

Is no team capable of playing rugby right except Wales, Mikey?

No dominance...
Delusional....
Penalties should have been given....

.....

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 7:34 pm

No guys, 57-15 is dominant. Perspective is important once in a while... now less of the crying.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 7:36 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Coulda, shoulda, woulda Mikey. The record books will show your scrum played a big part in losing you the game. Ireland were pretty dominant. Cant see the same happening next week though.

I don't see this as much of a win for us realistically. Beating Wales in Cardiff is amazing but this wasn't really a Wales 15.

Oh don’t cry and take it too seriously, this is just my point of view. The real test is next week in Dublin.

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Post by SecretFly on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 7:47 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:

Oh don’t cry and take it too seriously

Someone is, Mikey. Someone has been very animated all week in the Ranking threads.

You're right, a KitKat is needed. Time for Yoga. Real fun starts in the World Cup.

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Post by SecretFly on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 7:52 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:57-15 is dominant.

It's overkill. That's what it is. Overkill. They're only warmups.

Irish players haven't even started the dreaded Welsh ice box training yet. Cigar time still Cool Easy street. Cruising. No worries and still can't seem to kick the habit of falling into 2nd spot in the Woyld.
It's embarrassing from so little effort. I blush.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 7:59 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Coulda, shoulda, woulda Mikey. The record books will show your scrum played a big part in losing you the game. Ireland were pretty dominant. Cant see the same happening next week though.

I don't see this as much of a win for us realistically. Beating Wales in Cardiff is amazing but this wasn't really a Wales 15.

Oh don’t cry and take it too seriously, this is just my point of view. The real test is next week in Dublin.

Ireland should win next week due to home advantage. But wait Wales was at home this week, and lost right. laughing

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Post by Taylorman on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 8:08 pm

LondonTiger wrote:According to pre match press, the coaches agreement was that todays game would be largely experimental teams with next week much closer to full strength. Who do people expect to see playing next week?

Really? The coaches actually discussed an agreement to have a soft match?

Two NZ ones at that. Dont see the point of that one bit. Why put the rugby echelon, expenses, fans tickets, wages etc through a facade of a training run?

Poor planning for these matches. Theres either too many, or someone has more money than sense. Nothing to gain from it. Best thing they could have done with so many newbies would have been to put them under genuine test match pressure.

But no, each coach gets to tell their side theyre playing happy families.

No way on earth the ABs would have lost 57-15 then agreed to any 'friendly' with a side it might be facing for the potential title.

No wonder theyre soft at knockout time.

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Post by maestegmafia on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 8:17 pm

Taylorman wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:According to pre match press, the coaches agreement was that todays game would be largely experimental teams with next week much closer to full strength. Who do people expect to see playing next week?

Really? The coaches actually discussed an agreement to have a soft match?

Two NZ ones at that. Dont see the point of that one bit. Why put the rugby echelon, expenses, fans tickets, wages etc through a facade of a training run?

Poor planning for these matches. Theres either too many, or someone has more money than sense. Nothing to gain from it. Best thing they could have done with so many newbies would have been to put them under genuine test match pressure.

But no, each coach gets to tell their side theyre playing happy families.

No way on earth the ABs would have lost 57-15 then agreed to any 'friendly' with a side it might be facing for the potential title.

No wonder theyre soft at knockout time.

I don’t think there was any doubt it was a proper test match. Great opportunity for both coaches to put their players under pressure and make some decisions today.

Wales squad to be announced tomorrow

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 8:19 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Coulda, shoulda, woulda Mikey. The record books will show your scrum played a big part in losing you the game. Ireland were pretty dominant. Cant see the same happening next week though.

I don't see this as much of a win for us realistically. Beating Wales in Cardiff is amazing but this wasn't really a Wales 15.

Oh don’t cry and take it too seriously, this is just my point of view. The real test is next week in Dublin.

Ireland should win next week due to home advantage. But wait Wales was at home this week, and lost right. laughing

Lol pathetic WUM. Tman give this guy some tuition.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 8:20 pm

SecretFly wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:

Oh don’t cry and take it too seriously

Someone is, Mikey.  Someone has been very animated all week in the Ranking threads.

You're right, a KitKat is needed.  Time for Yoga.   Real fun starts in the World Cup.

By someone I take it you mean some English guys?

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Post by The Oracle on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 8:25 pm

Taylorman wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:According to pre match press, the coaches agreement was that todays game would be largely experimental teams with next week much closer to full strength. Who do people expect to see playing next week?

Really? The coaches actually discussed an agreement to have a soft match?

Two NZ ones at that. Dont see the point of that one bit. Why put the rugby echelon, expenses, fans tickets, wages etc through a facade of a training run?

Poor planning for these matches. Theres either too many, or someone has more money than sense. Nothing to gain from it. Best thing they could have done with so many newbies would have been to put them under genuine test match pressure.

But no, each coach gets to tell their side theyre playing happy families.

No way on earth the ABs would have lost 57-15 then agreed to any 'friendly' with a side it might be facing for the potential title.

No wonder theyre soft at knockout time.

You seem to be confusing ‘experimental’ with playing ‘soft’. Where on earth did LT say they agreed to a soft match?! They agreed to both put out 2nd/3rd teams, is all. It would be too risky to put out the first team for all 4 games, while not trying some of the fringe players. Remember, the NH season ended months ago. The wider squad players need a hit out too.
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Post by SecretFly on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 8:26 pm

Taylorman wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:According to pre match press, the coaches agreement was that todays game would be largely experimental teams with next week much closer to full strength. Who do people expect to see playing next week?

Really? The coaches actually discussed an agreement to have a soft match?

Two NZ ones at that. Dont see the point of that one bit. Why put the rugby echelon, expenses, fans tickets, wages etc through a facade of a training run?

Poor planning for these matches. Theres either too many, or someone has more money than sense. Nothing to gain from it. Best thing they could have done with so many newbies would have been to put them under genuine test match pressure.

But no, each coach gets to tell their side theyre playing happy families.

No way on earth the ABs would have lost 57-15 then agreed to any 'friendly' with a side it might be facing for the potential title.

No wonder theyre soft at knockout time.

Well yes, Taylor.  But you've already touched on the explanation without fully realising it.  

Both head coaches are Kiwis.  And last time these two agreed 'pre-planned terms' for a set of friendly warm-ups, one Kiwi ended up blaming the other Kiwi for breaking the arrangement and bringing his A team to an agreed B team game.....

So in short, Gatland and Schmidt don't trust each other as far as they could throw each other.  The 'agreement' if there was indeed a definable one rather than just a casual chat, would likely be the kind of agreement two gangsters make to meet in an underground car park with no funny business. - There is always funny business.  One guy tries to kill the other.

Next week Joe has agreed to let Gats win.  There will be blood! Wink

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Post by Rugby Fan on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 8:29 pm

Taylorman wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:According to pre match press, the coaches agreement was that todays game would be largely experimental teams with next week much closer to full strength. Who do people expect to see playing next week?

Really? The coaches actually discussed an agreement to have a soft match?...Why put the rugby echelon, expenses, fans tickets, wages etc through a facade of a training run?

I've heard a few people argue that these matches should not be promoted as full Tests. It's not just this year, mind you. The warm-up match England lost to France before the 2003 tournament was one where we had agreed to play our second team against France's first choice line-up. (they did likewise at Twickenham)

Taylorman wrote:No way on earth the ABs would have lost 57-15 then agreed to any 'friendly' with a side it might be facing for the potential title.

Allegedly, Gatland and Schmidt agreed on what they wanted to do well before the whole series, not just before their head-to-head. Eddie Jones didn't have any particular arrangements with either. One reason he announced his squad early is that he didn't want players feeling they were in a selection battle. He claims he had a very specific idea of what game time he wanted players to get, and what he wanted the team to do in each match.

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Post by SecretFly on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 8:32 pm

Eddie never plays Ball! mad

He don't trust Kiwis neither, the Aussie git!

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Post by maestegmafia on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 8:52 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:According to pre match press, the coaches agreement was that todays game would be largely experimental teams with next week much closer to full strength. Who do people expect to see playing next week?

Really? The coaches actually discussed an agreement to have a soft match?

Two NZ ones at that. Dont see the point of that one bit. Why put the rugby echelon, expenses, fans tickets, wages etc through a facade of a training run?

Poor planning for these matches. Theres either too many, or someone has more money than sense. Nothing to gain from it. Best thing they could have done with so many newbies would have been to put them under genuine test match pressure.

But no, each coach gets to tell their side theyre playing happy families.

No way on earth the ABs would have lost 57-15 then agreed to any 'friendly' with a side it might be facing for the potential title.

No wonder theyre soft at knockout time.

Well yes, Taylor.  But you've already touched on the explanation without fully realising it.  

Both head coaches are Kiwis.  And last time these two agreed 'pre-planned terms' for a set of friendly warm-ups, one Kiwi ended up blaming the other Kiwi for breaking the arrangement and bringing his A team to an agreed B team game.....

So in short, Gatland and Schmidt don't trust each other as far as they could throw each other.  The 'agreement' if there was indeed a definable one rather than just a casual chat, would likely be the kind of agreement two gangsters make to meet in an underground car park with no funny business. - There is always funny business.  One guy tries to kill the other.

Next week Joe has agreed to let Gats win.  There will be blood! Wink

I think Gats could throw Schmidt a lot further than Schmidt could throw Gats, but I would be interested to see the results.

Maybe a little competition before the anthems next week?

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Post by SecretFly on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 9:08 pm

Ah now maest.  Size ain't everything.  Joe still looks like a kid and seems very fit.  So I'd bet he could throw Gats about 3inches further than more middle-aged spread Gats could throw him.

But it's a moot point coz Gangsters don't throw each other to gauge prowess ....they got little friends that do their talkin'

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Post by Taylorman on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 9:09 pm

SecretFly wrote:Eddie never plays Ball! mad

He don't trust Kiwis neither, the Aussie git!

then he knows what he's doing. No way Hansen is going to be negotiating an approach to a test match with an opposition coach. This is why Perth cost us so heavily. While Hansen was trying to work combinations in, Cheika was wanting the win at all costs, and it showed. We reciprocated that

This was Irelands chance to test the pain of a loss under pressure- that was the only and greatest value of the match at Millenium and now theyve thrown that away.

Schmidt should have rung Gatland and told him all bets are off and said we're coming to get you, full on. The world cup is more about mental prep than working combinations and having a series where two coaches chat over tea to be soft this time but not next is ridiculous.

Sorry, but both Wales and Ireland have missed the boat on this altogether. Next week is irrelevant now, because you end up with a turn on turn off set of mental instructions.

Doesnt work that way. Players get motivated by the pain of losing, or the thought of it, not by some pre organised agreement that everyone agrees on.

total waste of time because from a mental prep perspective, they've lost the plot.

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Post by Taylorman on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 9:19 pm

The Oracle wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:According to pre match press, the coaches agreement was that todays game would be largely experimental teams with next week much closer to full strength. Who do people expect to see playing next week?

Really? The coaches actually discussed an agreement to have a soft match?

You seem to be confusing ‘experimental’ with playing ‘soft’.

Absolutely not. I'm not confused one bit, Thats why I can be clear on that. 'Confused' is what the players will be.

'So what is it this week coach? on a scale of 1 to 10 what should our mental state be tuned to? 1 being a light training run, 10 being 'we've just been absolutely humiliated by 50 points, our fans hate us, my family and friends are embarrassed, my son won't talk to me...kinda thing.

You just give us a number boss and we'll go with that one'.

geez...


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Post by SecretFly on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 9:21 pm

Well maybe Joe Did ring Gats and say all bets are off.  I think you're reading too much into it, Taylor.
It was a chat about what teams were thinking and I joke about the idea that they were feeling each other out to double cross.  But not by much...joking that is.  

Gats wants to win everything.  It's just his nature and he put out a side that he believed could take it to Ireland.  He wasn't far wrong either.  Do you really think he told Schmidt in advance..."and then Patchell is going to come on at that time and gazump the f**king intensity and pace and burn the daylights out of your old blowhards"

Joe might have been anticipating the clockwork, traditional full on fightback but I doubt Gatland warned him directly that yet again he intended pulling victory from defeat late in the game when Ireland's old boys couldn't take the heat.

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Post by maestegmafia on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 9:24 pm

Taylorman I think that both teams players were all happy to get the opportunity to try and get selected today. It’s not as though the coaches were doing anything different to what many coaches do in many different sports were they need to select a squad for the big event.

The game was definitely competitive and from a fans perspective very enjoyable to watch.

From the coaches perspectives I think they will know who is going to be in their squads now.

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Post by SecretFly on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 9:26 pm

Taylorman wrote:

geez...


What was the Australia game then? What are the pool games the All Blacks sometimes bluff their way through pretending a minnow side is giving them problems? Cool

No half hearted, keeping powder dry efforts from the men in black?

Course there is. It's sport. Sport is still played by humans. Humans are deceptive basterdes if they think a prize worth bluffing for sits further down the track.

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Post by Taylorman on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 9:30 pm

maybe, but its all contrived for me, cant believe any coach would underpin the real value of these matches from a mental prep perspective. We experimented, but for our own correct selfish purposes, losses were risked, not arranged.
I won't go on because the concept of pre-arranging test conditions between coaches is so foreign to me its absurd. Mental prep and hardness is more important than 'giving players a go in a safe environment'.

Anyway, it is what it is, wont be bothered with next weeks farce. And to think one gave away the world no. 1 ranking on an agreement to be friendly.

Hilarious.

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Post by The Oracle on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 9:31 pm

Taylorman wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:According to pre match press, the coaches agreement was that todays game would be largely experimental teams with next week much closer to full strength. Who do people expect to see playing next week?

Really? The coaches actually discussed an agreement to have a soft match?

You seem to be confusing ‘experimental’ with playing ‘soft’.

Absolutely not. I'm not confused one bit, Thats why I can be clear on that. 'Confused' is what the players will be.

'So what is it this week coach? on a scale of 1 to 10 what should our mental state be tuned to? 1 being a light training run, 10 being 'we've just been absolutely humiliated by 50 points, our fans hate us, my family and friends are embarrassed, my son won't talk to me...kinda thing.

You just give us a number boss and we'll go with that one'.

geez...


What the f*** are you on about?! Stay off the drugs, son. Not a good look!
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Post by The Oracle on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 9:35 pm

Taylorman wrote:maybe, but its all contrived for me, cant believe any coach would underpin the real value of these matches from a mental prep perspective. We experimented, but for our own correct selfish purposes, losses were risked, not arranged.
I won't go on because the concept of pre-arranging test conditions between coaches is so foreign to me its absurd. Mental prep and hardness is more important than 'giving players a go in a safe environment'.

Anyway, it is what it is, wont be bothered with next weeks farce. And to think one gave away the world no. 1 ranking on an agreement to be friendly.

Hilarious.

They didn’t pre-arrange test conditions. Where are you getting this BS from? You’re just making it up. They agreed to play b teams. And those teams went as hard as they could. Those players were auditioning for a place on the plane. Nothing ‘soft’ about it. For some of the Wales players they fluffed their chance. They tore up their plane tickets and will be turning out for their club sides in the autumn instead of travelling to Japan. Life sucks for them. But to suggest it was a pre-arranged training run is just........... dumb.
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Post by Taylorman on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 9:37 pm

Yes, say that when Ireland dont have the mental fortitude to fight when down as they did in 2015.

Weak minds yield weak results. Sending your teams out on the basis of a phone call between coaches has got to be the weakest thing Ive seen in rugby.

You just don't get it...now...but you will. For years we've seen weak minded players come out this way. They give up before half time in some cases.

Easy to see why. And where I was warmed to see either go to AB coach, no way would I want anyone who's prepared to discuss how a test match should work. The line has to be drawn somehere, and these two just crossed it. The match provided zero and possibly less from a mental prep perspective.

Anyway, I get both sides of view, you dont get mine. thats fine.


Last edited by Taylorman on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 9:40 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by The Oracle on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 9:38 pm

Taylorman wrote:Yes, say that when Ireland dont have the mental fortitude to fight when down as they did in 2015.

Weak minds yield weak results. Sending your teams out on the basis of a phone call between coaches has got to be the weakest thing Ive seen in rugby.

You just don't get it...now...but you will. For years we've seen weak minded players come out this way. They give up before half time in some cases.

Easy to see why.


Again, WTF?!
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Post by Taylorman on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 9:43 pm

The Oracle wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Yes, say that when Ireland dont have the mental fortitude to fight when down as they did in 2015.

Weak minds yield weak results. Sending your teams out on the basis of a phone call between coaches has got to be the weakest thing Ive seen in rugby.

You just don't get it...now...but you will. For years we've seen weak minded players come out this way. They give up before half time in some cases.

Easy to see why.


Again, WTF?!

Not very smart for an Oracle then huh?

Maybe it should be ' Dazed and confused, bewildered' ?

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 9:43 pm

The Oracle wrote:What the f*** are you on about?! Stay off the drugs, son. Not a good look!

Great response. You would be absolutely crying if I said this to an English person.

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Post by The Oracle on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 9:45 pm

“Anyway, I get both sides of view, you dont get mine. thats fine.”

It’s not a view. You’ve just completely misunderstood the ‘phone call’. picard

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 9:47 pm

Taylorman wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Yes, say that when Ireland dont have the mental fortitude to fight when down as they did in 2015.

Weak minds yield weak results. Sending your teams out on the basis of a phone call between coaches has got to be the weakest thing Ive seen in rugby.

You just don't get it...now...but you will. For years we've seen weak minded players come out this way. They give up before half time in some cases.

Easy to see why.


Again, WTF?!

Not very smart for an Oracle then huh?

Maybe it should be ' Dazed and confused, bewildered' ?

Correct.
Simply put, the teams arranged too many games. Wholesale changes needed to be made for at least one game otherwise risk burnout before the World Cup. Personally I’d have arranged 3 games and then one against the barbarians, with one of the former 3 being some hyped up minnows like Georgia. You can expect wholesale changes from teams during the pool stage too, and for us that will be the final pool game against Uruguay.

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Post by SecretFly on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 9:48 pm

I will say Taylorman has a point.  I don't like the scent of these cosies either.  We're competitors.  We should meet at all times knowing only of our own intentions.  Warm ups should have the same criteria as full competitive games in that the coach selects his team exclusively on his needs, balancing rookies with experience if need be, deciding on more 2nd string if he has the confidence to play them.  But because the decisions would be all in house, then all teams are forced to create their own scenarios in player choice on game day too.  If one coach feels constrained in timing game opportunities for fringe players, then all coaches feel the same pressure in a no friendly chats scenario.  Level playing field.

I just think it is dicey in games that people still drop money onto that cosy chats happen around a friendly fire.  I'd prefer that they didn't happen.

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Post by The Oracle on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 9:48 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
The Oracle wrote:What the f*** are you on about?! Stay off the drugs, son. Not a good look!

Great response. You would be absolutely crying if I said this to an English person.




Let’s not get into personal insults. There is no need which is why we have rule to prohibit them.

I have deleted your post

MM

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Post by Taylorman on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 9:51 pm

The Oracle wrote:
Taylorman wrote:maybe, but its all contrived for me, cant believe any coach would underpin the real value of these matches from a mental prep perspective. We experimented, but for our own correct selfish purposes, losses were risked, not arranged.
I won't go on because the concept of pre-arranging test conditions between coaches is so foreign to me its absurd. Mental prep and hardness is more important than 'giving players a go in a safe environment'.

Anyway, it is what it is, wont be bothered with next weeks farce. And to think one gave away the world no. 1 ranking on an agreement to be friendly.

Hilarious.

They didn’t pre-arrange test conditions. Where are you getting this BS from? You’re just making it up. They agreed to play b teams. And those teams went as hard as they could. Those players were auditioning for a place on the plane. Nothing ‘soft’ about it. For some of the Wales players they fluffed their chance. They tore up their plane tickets and will be turning out for their club sides in the autumn instead of travelling to Japan. Life sucks for them. But to suggest it was a pre-arranged training run is just........... dumb.

nah, you dont 'arrange' to play B teams in a test as a test to see whether they should be on the plane to a World cup or not. Cos what happens then? They have no idea whether that player will succeed in a knockout. 'ooh, x went well in the Ire Wales game, should be ok vs NZ in the knockout' . Oh sure, that works.

This is what you're not getting. We don't play 'agreements' as prep before world cup matches. For good reason.

Yet here you have two sides, never having made a final, doing exactly that. Youre touting players from an agreed match between players is being used to determine who gets on the plane or not? There is more reason in that as an explanation for their early exits than anything else I can think of.

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Post by The Oracle on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 9:54 pm

So why do New Zealand play B Sides?
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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 9:54 pm

Great response again oracle. Seeing as I’ll be between Newport and Bristol in a couple weeks time would you care to meet up and say that or whatever else you feel to my face? Your personal attacks against me because I don’t agree with your way of thinking have been going on a while now.

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