Ireland [1] vs Scotland [7] Pool A, Match 6, RWC 2019

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Post by bsando on Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:20 pm

First topic message reminder :

Ireland vs Scotland

Pool A, Match 6
Sunday, September 22
Kick Off 08:45 BST
International Stadium Yokohama, Kanagawa Prefecture, Yokohama City

Teams


Ireland
Ireland [1] vs Scotland [7] Pool A, Match 6, RWC 2019 - Page 10 Downlo10

1.Healy, 2.Best (C), 3.Furlong
4.Henderson, 5.James Ryan
6.O'Mahony, 7.Van der Flier
8.Stander

9.Murray, 10.Sexton
12.Aki, 13.Ringrose
11.Stockdale, 15.Lamour, 14.Conway

Replacements: Scannell, Kilcoyne, Porter, Beirne, Conan, McGrath, Carty, Farrell

Scotland
Ireland [1] vs Scotland [7] Pool A, Match 6, RWC 2019 - Page 10 Scot10

1.Dell, 2.McInally (C), 3.Nel
4.Gilchrist, 5.Gray
6.Barclay (VC), 7.Watson, 8.Wilson

9.Laidlaw (VC), 10.Russell
12.Johnson, 13.Taylor
11.Maitland, 15.Hogg, 14.Seymour

Bench: Brown, Reid, Berghan, Cummings, Thomson, Price, Harris, Graham


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Post by Old Man on Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:21 pm

Just to again prove you wrong.

World Cup round one kicks from hand.

Ireland 39
NewZealand 30
Scotland 27
England 27
Argentina 25
South Africa 24
France 23
Australia 12


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Post by Taylorman on Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:27 pm

Yes we are kicking a lot, it’s part of why we beat SA, Smith was putting the Boks under big pressure and has Murray’s mark in that area lately. But we are also kicking creatively, twice Mo’unga found Reece out wide so you may as well call them passes.

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Post by Old Man on Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:29 pm

I don’t have an issue with kicking, especially when the kick has a purpose. The only kicks that are wasted are those that has no intended purpose.

Collapse on the other hand suggests SA kick the leather off the ball

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Post by tigertattie on Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:32 pm

I don’t know if it can be called boring but it is efficient risk adverse rugby.

Ireland don’t execute a flowing backs move for example. Ireland’s scores today came from Scottish errors.

Ireland either score from playing advantage (so no risk on trying something) or they launch from a platform of a set piece after Scotland inevitably made an error.

Ireland play a game where they almost do not want the ball. They kick it to you and have a high pressing line and want the opposition to make a mistake which they can then pounce on.

It’s not attractive free flowing JPR Williams stuff but it gets them results.

They are the exact opposite of Scotland.
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Post by Old Man on Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:35 pm

tigertattie wrote:I don’t know if it can be called boring but it is efficient risk adverse rugby.

Ireland don’t execute a flowing backs move for example. Ireland’s scores today came from Scottish errors.

Ireland either score from playing advantage (so no risk on trying something) or they launch from a platform of a set piece after Scotland inevitably made an error.

Ireland play a game where they almost do not want the ball. They kick it to you and have a high pressing line and want the opposition to make a mistake which they can then pounce on.

It’s not attractive free flowing JPR Williams stuff but it gets them results.

They are the exact opposite of Scotland.

Which is pretty much how South Africa plays. Hard for some to hear, but the truth nonetheless.

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Post by tigertattie on Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:43 pm

Old Man wrote:
tigertattie wrote:I don’t know if it can be called boring but it is efficient risk adverse rugby.

Ireland don’t execute a flowing backs move for example. Ireland’s scores today came from Scottish errors.

Ireland either score from playing advantage (so no risk on trying something) or they launch from a platform of a set piece after Scotland inevitably made an error.

Ireland play a game where they almost do not want the ball. They kick it to you and have a high pressing line and want the opposition to make a mistake which they can then pounce on.

It’s not attractive free flowing JPR Williams stuff but it gets them results.

They are the exact opposite of Scotland.

Which is pretty much how South Africa plays. Hard for some to hear, but the truth nonetheless.

This is why I wasn’t worried about losing and ending up playing the blacks. You can argue that NZ are the better side than SA (or could before SA lost to them yesterday) but Scotland are not set up to play risk adverse basic skills teams.

For Scotland to win, we need to draw the opposition into playing our brand of batschit mentalness. NZ could be drawn into that game but Ireland and SA will not.

Today showed just how poor we are when we’re not getting to throw the ball around without a care in the world.

We were that bad that it doesn’t look good for the QF (if we get there) but we’re also Scotland and that could be the one game where we do play (and get to play) so it’s possible we at least show a good account of ourselves. Unlikely though
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Post by majesticimperialman on Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:43 pm

I say old man you did realise Ireland was playing in ( GREEN ) and not blue. thumbsup

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Post by SecretFly on Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:46 pm

Old Man wrote:Just to again prove you wrong.

World Cup round one kicks from hand.

Ireland 39
NewZealand 30
Scotland 27
England 27
Argentina 25
South Africa 24
France 23
Australia 12


Nice stat.  Kicking wins games obviously.... Whistle

I know, I know, ya just can't win this argument when we got lads who'll see the positives in any stats..... Run

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Post by alive555 on Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:51 pm

Scotland played a kick chase game in the 2000s
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Post by Collapse2005 on Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:53 pm

Old Man wrote:Just to again prove you wrong.

World Cup round one kicks from hand.

Ireland 39
NewZealand 30
Scotland 27
England 27
Argentina 25
South Africa 24
France 23
Australia 12


You havent proved me wrong because the more relevant stat is over the course of this year SA has kicked more of their possession than anyone else.

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Post by RiscaGame on Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:54 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Some effort from 37 year old Best today. All lineouts won, scored a try and he played 80 minutes. Ireland legend, still got it.

Good shift. Makes me wonder whether Wales are better defensively in the lineouts, than I gave them credit for. I thought Scotland would really challenge the lineout, but it seemed like they hardly competed.

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Post by Taylorman on Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:57 pm

tigertattie wrote:
Old Man wrote:
tigertattie wrote:I don’t know if it can be called boring but it is efficient risk adverse rugby.

Ireland don’t execute a flowing backs move for example. Ireland’s scores today came from Scottish errors.

Ireland either score from playing advantage (so no risk on trying something) or they launch from a platform of a set piece after Scotland inevitably made an error.

Ireland play a game where they almost do not want the ball. They kick it to you and have a high pressing line and want the opposition to make a mistake which they can then pounce on.

It’s not attractive free flowing JPR Williams stuff but it gets them results.

They are the exact opposite of Scotland.

Which is pretty much how South Africa plays. Hard for some to hear, but the truth nonetheless.

This is why I wasn’t worried about losing and ending up playing the blacks. You can argue that NZ are the better side than SA (or could before SA lost to them yesterday) but Scotland are not set up to play risk adverse basic skills teams.

For Scotland to win, we need to draw the opposition into playing our brand of batschit mentalness. NZ could be drawn into that game but Ireland and SA will not.

Today showed just how poor we are when we’re not getting to throw the ball around without a care in the world.

We were that bad that it doesn’t look good for the QF (if we get there) but we’re also Scotland and that could be the one game where we do play (and get to play) so it’s possible we at least show a good account of ourselves.  Unlikely though

Yes you want a like for like match and will more likely get that versus NZ. Fair comment and that’s probably true, you will. NZ could, but won’t, tighten up vs Scotland and will probably be happily drawn into that game, simply because the chances that Scotland offer up won’t be turned down, so in another sense be careful what you wish for. Scotland will certainly get more chances vs the NZ game, but taking them is one thing, delivering on them another.

Could be the most entertaining quarter final though.

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Post by Old Man on Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:09 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Old Man wrote:Just to again prove you wrong.

World Cup round one kicks from hand.

Ireland 39
NewZealand 30
Scotland 27
England 27
Argentina 25
South Africa 24
France 23
Australia 12




You havent proved me wrong because the more relevant stat is over the course of this year SA has kicked more of their possession than anyone else.

Yeah, I showed you the stat England and Scotland generally kick kore than SA.

In fact our average is 24.9 kicks per match and that is how many kicks we made vs NZ.


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Post by tigertattie on Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:12 pm

Taylorman wrote:
tigertattie wrote:
Old Man wrote:
tigertattie wrote:I don’t know if it can be called boring but it is efficient risk adverse rugby.

Ireland don’t execute a flowing backs move for example. Ireland’s scores today came from Scottish errors.

Ireland either score from playing advantage (so no risk on trying something) or they launch from a platform of a set piece after Scotland inevitably made an error.

Ireland play a game where they almost do not want the ball. They kick it to you and have a high pressing line and want the opposition to make a mistake which they can then pounce on.

It’s not attractive free flowing JPR Williams stuff but it gets them results.

They are the exact opposite of Scotland.

Which is pretty much how South Africa plays. Hard for some to hear, but the truth nonetheless.

This is why I wasn’t worried about losing and ending up playing the blacks. You can argue that NZ are the better side than SA (or could before SA lost to them yesterday) but Scotland are not set up to play risk adverse basic skills teams.

For Scotland to win, we need to draw the opposition into playing our brand of batschit mentalness. NZ could be drawn into that game but Ireland and SA will not.

Today showed just how poor we are when we’re not getting to throw the ball around without a care in the world.

We were that bad that it doesn’t look good for the QF (if we get there) but we’re also Scotland and that could be the one game where we do play (and get to play) so it’s possible we at least show a good account of ourselves.  Unlikely though

Yes you want a like for like match and will more likely get that versus NZ. Fair comment and that’s probably true, you will. NZ could, but won’t, tighten up vs Scotland and will probably be happily drawn into that game, simply because the chances that Scotland offer up won’t be turned down, so in another sense be careful what you wish for. Scotland will certainly get more chances vs the NZ game, but taking them is one thing, delivering on them another.

Could be the most entertaining quarter final though.

Oh don’t get me wrong. New Zealand are by far the better team. They are probably the most complete all round team on the planet.

The only glimmer of hope (and we need the hope) is that NZ won’t use the power game that Ireland and SA would put in. They could. But they won’t.

Basically, NZ will run the ball at us which means we can look to use our counter attacking game. NZ will run at us not because they are naive and don’t realise we are a threat on the counter, but because they are confident enough to do it.

Ireland are not that side which is why they perfectly played their game to feed off our mistakes and not make any of their own.

I don’t think we’ll see a traditional match against NZ. It’ll either be horribly one sided towards NZ or Scotland will be brave to the end with the result going either way (wishful thinking). Scotland won’t lose by 7 to 10 points, we’ll either lose by 1 or 30 plus
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Post by Collapse2005 on Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:15 pm

Old Man wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Old Man wrote:Just to again prove you wrong.

World Cup round one kicks from hand.

Ireland 39
NewZealand 30
Scotland 27
England 27
Argentina 25
South Africa 24
France 23
Australia 12




You havent proved me wrong because the more relevant stat is over the course of this year SA has kicked more of their possession than anyone else.

Yeah, I showed you the stat England and Scotland generally kick kore than SA.

In fact our average is 24.9 kicks per match and that is how many kicks we made vs NZ.


Scotland and England generally have more posession that SA too and therefore also pass the ball significantly more than SA. The undeniable fact is that SA kicks more of their posession than anyone else so far this year.

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Post by Old Man on Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:16 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Old Man wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Old Man wrote:Just to again prove you wrong.

World Cup round one kicks from hand.

Ireland 39
NewZealand 30
Scotland 27
England 27
Argentina 25
South Africa 24
France 23
Australia 12




You havent proved me wrong because the more relevant stat is over the course of this year SA has kicked more of their possession than anyone else.

Yeah, I showed you the stat England and Scotland generally kick kore than SA.

In fact our average is 24.9 kicks per match and that is how many kicks we made vs NZ.


Scotland and England generally have more posession that SA too and therefore also pass the ball significantly more than SA. The undeniable fact is that SA kicks more of their posession than anyone else so far this year.

Again, do you comprehend number of possessions and number of passes isn’t the same thing?

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Post by Collapse2005 on Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:17 pm

picard

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Post by SecretFly on Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:19 pm

Scotland have a chance to stretch their legs and offloads against Japan...to test out if you will how confident they remain in their freeform version of high jinx rugby.  If they get that kind of game with Japan and it plays well for them, then that will increase their willingness to put it all out there against New Zealand.  Best to play the brand they are most comfortable playing than trying to slow down and contain New Zealand.

But two problems with Scotland's game when it comes to the ABs -
1.  The AB game isn't as freeform and devil-may-care as it might appear to the Ooh Ahh crowd.  It's a ruthless well rehearsed machine with a bundle of plays to call on (they do train and the do practice).  So in other words and obviously, their batschit mentalness won't be either as mental or as batschit as perhaps Scotland's instinctive dash play might be.
2.  You don't spook a New Zealand team with chaos.  They'll just join the party.

Yep, potential to be an entertaining game though, and yes more of a functional fit for a Scottish team bred for loose, pacey, counter attacking play.  And who knows what fate might have in store if the sides meet.

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Post by miaow on Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:44 pm

Ireland are 'frustrating' before they're boring, particularly if your side is on the receiving end of one of their squeezing, grinding, tactical masterclasses. SA, NZ, Wales and ofc Scotland have in recent years, and they're well represented by posters on here calling them boring.

They arguably are 'boring' for the neutral, though their home fans will love every second they maintain the ball and drain the life out of the opposition. But who cares? Wales are fairly boring as well, but we know we have it in the bank to mix it up as/when we need to in the final quarter. It's made us successful, same goes to Ireland. Tonga were 'boring' today. If you're a fan of rugby, you should appreciate the clash and the competition, in every facet.

If not, it comes across as bitterness and fear, which about sums up the criticisms on this site.

I went back and watched the 2003 WC final a few weeks ago, with Johnson and Dallaglio commentating on it. Strange to think they were considered 'boring' when you see things back through different eyes. I don't doubt when we look back on Ireland - when rugby has become full-on American Football-esque at every ruck - we won't see them as 'boring'. It's a weird label anyway. British/Irish sport has always been about pressure and forcing the opposition in to mistakes, for all its failings in producing/encouraging postive/attacking teams. Different strokes for different folks.


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Post by Taylorman on Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:45 pm

‘You don't spook a New Zealand team with chaos. They'll just join the party’

Ha ha, a lot of our matches versus oz are like that, both teams can go 80 one way then 80 the other, and sometimes back again in the same play. A near missed try at one end can result in a try at the other.

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Post by miaow on Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:28 pm

"Scotland 'battered' by Ireland despite 'spot-on' preparation - Stuart Hogg"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/49788213

Honestly, that hits the nail on the head. I don't think there is a worse feeling than losing a game of sport having barely got out of the blocks, where nothing really works, and everything is flat. I can't imagine how that must feel, personally, in a professional level, at a RWC. Hogg was the sole source of threat today, but Ireland still shut him down with ease.

I imagine if Scotland crash out in the groups there will be some interesting chapters in a few autobioraphies about this game and this world cup. Scotland feel like a team lacking leadership top down, and in the team itself.

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Post by Taylorman on Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:10 pm

miaow wrote:Ireland are 'frustrating' before they're boring, particularly if your side is on the receiving end of one of their squeezing, grinding, tactical masterclasses. SA, NZ, Wales and ofc Scotland have in recent years, and they're well represented by posters on here calling them boring.

They arguably are 'boring' for the neutral, though their home fans will love every second they maintain the ball and drain the life out of the opposition. But who cares? Wales are fairly boring as well, but we know we have it in the bank to mix it up as/when we need to in the final quarter. It's made us successful, same goes to Ireland. Tonga were 'boring' today. If you're a fan of rugby, you should appreciate the clash and the competition, in every facet.

If not, it comes across as bitterness and fear, which about sums up the criticisms on this site.

I went back and watched the 2003 WC final a few weeks ago, with Johnson and Dallaglio commentating on it. Strange to think they were considered 'boring' when you see things back through different eyes. I don't doubt when we look back on Ireland - when rugby has become full-on American Football-esque at every ruck - we won't see them as 'boring'. It's a weird label anyway. British/Irish sport has always been about pressure and forcing the opposition in to mistakes, for all its failings in producing/encouraging postive/attacking teams. Different strokes for different folks.

That may be but over time, that approach really does become truly boring, to the detriment of the game. That’s because it’s a game plan based on not letting anyone do anything. It’s a controlling style designed to kill creativity and long term, enjoyment in watching it.p, and even worse, players taking up the game.

It’s fine for Ireland to play that style now as it has got them success to date, and good luck to them. But over time, and it’s something you only learn as a fan having followed the best side over a very long period, you end up strangling yourselves. You take less risks, you play the same players longer...because ‘converting’ and strangling whatever enthusiasm youngsters have for the game takes a longer learning curve, but mostly, you become so predictable you get worked out. That happened with England’s 2003 side, they built a style up over years and brought zero players through on it, and collapsed when the long term era left. We also saw it with the Boks in 2007-2009, their kick the ball away sole tactic got them so far.

That’s why NZ doesn’t take up the same style...we could, but we owe it to our youth to continue to explore what’s possible in this game, not set an example of how to kill all enjoyment of the game. We kick a lot yes, and we’ve had to, it’s pretty obvious the rush defence evolved largely from having to stop NZ, and we are currently working out ways to get around that, rather than take the same style on and make it better, something we could easily do. In doing so we risk losing, so be it.

You might talk yourselves into the winning ugly is great but, in the end, ugly...is actually ugly, no matter how much lipstick you apply.

Ireland were probably the most convincing winners of the few favourites and they’ll be on the up, which is great. A showdown with SA means they must consolidate their game plan to take that one. That looks like a close match and in my opinion the side that starts better will win, because both are poor finishing scorers, and don’t come back when down easily.

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Post by Taylorman on Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:45 pm

One of the most obvious things we saw with Sexton is he’s using every opportunity to get the play back towards the forwards by moving out a step or two to hopefully drag the defence, then pass back inside to a runner running straight off him.

Highly predictable and those runners are going to start getting smashed if he keeps doing it.

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Post by carpet baboon on Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:54 pm

Taylorman wrote:
miaow wrote:Ireland are 'frustrating' before they're boring, particularly if your side is on the receiving end of one of their squeezing, grinding, tactical masterclasses. SA, NZ, Wales and ofc Scotland have in recent years, and they're well represented by posters on here calling them boring.

They arguably are 'boring' for the neutral, though their home fans will love every second they maintain the ball and drain the life out of the opposition. But who cares? Wales are fairly boring as well, but we know we have it in the bank to mix it up as/when we need to in the final quarter. It's made us successful, same goes to Ireland. Tonga were 'boring' today. If you're a fan of rugby, you should appreciate the clash and the competition, in every facet.

If not, it comes across as bitterness and fear, which about sums up the criticisms on this site.

I went back and watched the 2003 WC final a few weeks ago, with Johnson and Dallaglio commentating on it. Strange to think they were considered 'boring' when you see things back through different eyes. I don't doubt when we look back on Ireland - when rugby has become full-on American Football-esque at every ruck - we won't see them as 'boring'. It's a weird label anyway. British/Irish sport has always been about pressure and forcing the opposition in to mistakes, for all its failings in producing/encouraging postive/attacking teams. Different strokes for different folks.

That may be but over time, that approach really does become truly boring, to the detriment of the game. That’s because it’s a game plan based on not letting anyone do anything. It’s a controlling style designed to kill creativity and long term, enjoyment in watching it.p, and even worse, players taking up the game.

It’s fine for Ireland to play that style now as it has got them success to date, and good luck to them. But over time, and it’s something you only learn as a fan having followed the best side over a very long period, you end up strangling yourselves. You take less risks, you play the same players longer...because ‘converting’ and strangling whatever enthusiasm youngsters have for the game takes a longer learning curve, but mostly, you become so predictable you get worked out. That happened with England’s 2003 side, they built a style up over years and brought zero players through on it, and collapsed when the long term era left. We also saw it with the Boks in 2007-2009, their kick the ball away sole tactic got them so far.

That’s why NZ doesn’t take up the same style...we could, but we owe it to our youth to continue to explore what’s possible in this game, not set an example of how to kill all enjoyment of the game. We kick a lot yes, and we’ve had to, it’s pretty obvious the rush defence evolved largely from having to stop NZ, and we are currently working out ways to get around that, rather than take the same style on and make it better, something we could easily do. In doing so we risk losing, so be it.

You might talk yourselves into the winning ugly is great but, in the end, ugly...is actually ugly, no matter how much lipstick you apply.

Ireland were probably the most convincing winners of the few favourites and they’ll be on the up, which is great. A showdown with SA means they must consolidate their game plan to take that one. That looks like a close match and in my opinion the side that starts better will win, because both are poor finishing scorers, and don’t come back when down easily.

Sorry tman.
I love it when we win. Couldn't give a flying fig if you or anyone else finds it boring, it's the score at the end that matters.

If people don't like it they need to stop it from working and force us to change.
But for me, winning isn't boring in the slightest.

Ps love be the idea that you play that way because "you owe it to the children"
Magnificently altruistic of you.

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Post by SecretFly on Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:56 pm

First objective of any International side is to bring a sense of joy and happiness to the people you represent.
Now you might say a joyous, expressive, creative gameplan or style is the way to do it but ask Scotland fans today?  Some of them are sick of the talk of creativity and fastest rugby.... Why? - Because ultimately winning is what brings joy to fans.  Winning is primary.

Second objective is finding a style and players to improve your winning potential.  There are a few ways of winning rugby games.  New Zealand have their way, SA have their way, Ireland have their way, etc etc.  Now rugby is still rugby so you'll find crossover in styles.    So New Zealand can be doggedly physical and forward power orientated, and surprise, surprise Ireland can actually produce some beautiful attacking backs based moves.  They ain't frequent but Provincial players can do more than flop over lines as our reasonably strong European club record suggests.  
Our plan to win and make fans happy simply chooses to go a different path at International.  Variety shouldn't be boring, it should be regarded as interesting, like war games - which contrasting tactics win this one?  I find that interesting when two good styles meet.

Anyway, Joe is near the end of his tenure.  New players coming in bit by bit.  How will Ireland choose to Try to play - to Win - to make Irish fans happy  - under Farrell and his choices of assistant coaches?  Questions, questions.  Future will tell.

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Post by SecretFly on Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:00 pm

carpet baboon wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
miaow wrote:Ireland are 'frustrating' before they're boring, particularly if your side is on the receiving end of one of their squeezing, grinding, tactical masterclasses. SA, NZ, Wales and ofc Scotland have in recent years, and they're well represented by posters on here calling them boring.

They arguably are 'boring' for the neutral, though their home fans will love every second they maintain the ball and drain the life out of the opposition. But who cares? Wales are fairly boring as well, but we know we have it in the bank to mix it up as/when we need to in the final quarter. It's made us successful, same goes to Ireland. Tonga were 'boring' today. If you're a fan of rugby, you should appreciate the clash and the competition, in every facet.

If not, it comes across as bitterness and fear, which about sums up the criticisms on this site.

I went back and watched the 2003 WC final a few weeks ago, with Johnson and Dallaglio commentating on it. Strange to think they were considered 'boring' when you see things back through different eyes. I don't doubt when we look back on Ireland - when rugby has become full-on American Football-esque at every ruck - we won't see them as 'boring'. It's a weird label anyway. British/Irish sport has always been about pressure and forcing the opposition in to mistakes, for all its failings in producing/encouraging postive/attacking teams. Different strokes for different folks.

That may be but over time, that approach really does become truly boring, to the detriment of the game. That’s because it’s a game plan based on not letting anyone do anything. It’s a controlling style designed to kill creativity and long term, enjoyment in watching it.p, and even worse, players taking up the game.

It’s fine for Ireland to play that style now as it has got them success to date, and good luck to them. But over time, and it’s something you only learn as a fan having followed the best side over a very long period, you end up strangling yourselves. You take less risks, you play the same players longer...because ‘converting’ and strangling whatever enthusiasm youngsters have for the game takes a longer learning curve, but mostly, you become so predictable you get worked out. That happened with England’s 2003 side, they built a style up over years and brought zero players through on it, and collapsed when the long term era left. We also saw it with the Boks in 2007-2009, their kick the ball away sole tactic got them so far.

That’s why NZ doesn’t take up the same style...we could, but we owe it to our youth to continue to explore what’s possible in this game, not set an example of how to kill all enjoyment of the game. We kick a lot yes, and we’ve had to, it’s pretty obvious the rush defence evolved largely from having to stop NZ, and we are currently working out ways to get around that, rather than take the same style on and make it better, something we could easily do. In doing so we risk losing, so be it.

You might talk yourselves into the winning ugly is great but, in the end, ugly...is actually ugly, no matter how much lipstick you apply.

Ireland were probably the most convincing winners of the few favourites and they’ll be on the up, which is great. A showdown with SA means they must consolidate their game plan to take that one. That looks like a close match and in my opinion the side that starts better will win, because both are poor finishing scorers, and don’t come back when down easily.

Sorry tman.
I love it when we win. Couldn't give a flying fig if you or anyone else finds it boring, it's the score at the end that matters.

If people don't like it they need to stop it from working and force us to change.
But for me, winning isn't boring in the slightest.

Ps love be the idea that you play that way because "you owe it to the children"
Magnificently altruistic of you.

OK

Everyone is entitled to their preferences of course but sometimes the criticisms of Irish ways sounds like someone berating you to play more like them so that they can have a much easier time beating you.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:24 pm

CJ seems to play much better at 6.

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Post by Taylorman on Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:46 pm

carpet baboon wrote:

Ps love be the idea that you play that way because "you owe it to the children"
Magnificently altruistic of you.

Oh it’s a commonly held view since the Boks 3-0d us in 2009. We took the view that we’d either have to join em or beat em, but as Henry correctly said NZers first and foremost love to run with the ball, and it’s been core to our success since, even though we have to add a lot of kicking, but we’ve remained loyal to our running game which is why we can produce players like Barrett and probably why Ireland won’t.

They get tamed into the risk game, the ball cant be too far away from the pack or it gets too scary. Versus SA Barrett tried running it from behind the goa line to which Hansen applauded, one effort almost getting a try the other end.

As fans you’ll never see that stuff, because you’re so....tight. Too much ‘risk’. Laugh Can imagine the dads all getting their kids to watch, yes, a pushover...no wait, another pushover. ‘No thanks a Dad, we’ll kick around at the back’.

Tis a pity there’s not more courage in this game, little unwillingness to explore ones potential. Three early Irish pushovers to seal the win. Ho hum. Seen that before many times from the Boks. Enjoy it while you can because one things certain, it has a short shelf life.

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Post by Taylorman on Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:47 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:CJ seems to play much better at 6.

Was the standout loose for me. Played very well.

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Post by Taylorman on Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:03 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Everyone is entitled to their preferences of course but sometimes the criticisms of Irish ways sounds like someone berating you to play more like them so that they can have a much easier time beating you.

Oh absolutely agree with that, and your point about Scotland, who play a more similar NZ game than most. Part of that may be because they aren’t producing the big forwards needed for the power game, and that’s also a concern for us going all mobile- we can definitely lose to that sort of game, and might. In which case, we start again.

Irish fans are finally enjoying the returns of good hard work of Irish rugby over the past few years and nothing wrong with that.

That they’ve adopted probably the most ‘right wing’ version of the game in terms of conservatism, structure etc etc will mean they’ll be more consistent, and that will only serve them to go further right. Sounds a good plan? Perhaps...ask the Boks.

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Post by carpet baboon on Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:05 pm

Taylorman wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:

Ps love be the idea that you play that way because "you owe it to the children"
Magnificently altruistic of you.

Oh it’s a commonly held view since the Boks 3-0d us in 2009. We took the view that we’d either have to join em or beat em, but as Henry correctly said NZers first and foremost love to run with the ball, and it’s been core to our success since, even though we have to add a lot of kicking, but we’ve remained loyal to our running game which is why we can produce players like Barrett and probably why Ireland won’t.

They get tamed into the risk game, the ball cant be too far away from the pack or it gets too scary. Versus SA Barrett tried running it from behind the goa line to which Hansen applauded, one effort almost getting a try the other end.

As fans you’ll never see that stuff, because you’re so....tight. Too much ‘risk’. Laugh Can imagine the dads all getting their kids to watch, yes, a pushover...no wait, another pushover. ‘No thanks a Dad, we’ll kick around at the back’.

Tis a pity there’s not more courage in this game, little unwillingness to explore ones potential. Three early Irish pushovers to seal the win. Ho hum. Seen that before many times from the Boks. Enjoy it while you can because one things certain, it has a short shelf life.

Your bringing a tear to my eye tman.

It's all for the kiddos.
Your all so brave

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Post by miaow on Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:34 pm

[quote="Taylorman"]
miaow wrote:

That may be but over time, that approach really does become truly boring, to the detriment of the game...

...in your opinion.

Try giving Leinster a watch at some point. Broaden your horizons.

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Post by Don Alfonso on Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:54 pm

Taylorman wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:

Ps love be the idea that you play that way because "you owe it to the children"
Magnificently altruistic of you.

Oh it’s a commonly held view since the Boks 3-0d us in 2009. We took the view that we’d either have to join em or beat em, but as Henry correctly said NZers first and foremost love to run with the ball, and it’s been core to our success since, even though we have to add a lot of kicking, but we’ve remained loyal to our running game which is why we can produce players like Barrett and probably why Ireland won’t.

They get tamed into the risk game, the ball cant be too far away from the pack or it gets too scary. Versus SA Barrett tried running it from behind the goa line to which Hansen applauded, one effort almost getting a try the other end.

As fans you’ll never see that stuff, because you’re so....tight. Too much ‘risk’. Laugh Can imagine the dads all getting their kids to watch, yes, a pushover...no wait, another pushover. ‘No thanks a Dad, we’ll kick around at the back’.

Tis a pity there’s not more courage in this game, little unwillingness to explore ones potential. Three early Irish pushovers to seal the win. Ho hum. Seen that before many times from the Boks. Enjoy it while you can because one things certain, it has a short shelf life.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M_6Ez0U6pi4

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Post by miaow on Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:14 am

Also, if Ireland or any other NH team knock NZ out, I worry for your health TMan!

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Post by Taylorman on Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:01 am

miaow wrote:Also, if Ireland or any other NH team knock NZ out, I worry for your health TMan!

Ha ha nah, went through 24 years of that rubbish. 2007 taught us a lot of things. One is knowing how to take losses. You don’t see me packing a sad or disappearing after we lose, as you do others, I’m usually the first to congratulate the winners. One thing discussing the merits of yours or other teams, another knowing how to take a loss. Quite open to a loss this year, and I’ve made some argument that expects it, going all mobile being the main one. Means you can get onto the meaty discussions.

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Post by Taylorman on Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:07 am

Don Alfonso wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:

Ps love be the idea that you play that way because "you owe it to the children"
Magnificently altruistic of you.

Oh it’s a commonly held view since the Boks 3-0d us in 2009. We took the view that we’d either have to join em or beat em, but as Henry correctly said NZers first and foremost love to run with the ball, and it’s been core to our success since, even though we have to add a lot of kicking, but we’ve remained loyal to our running game which is why we can produce players like Barrett and probably why Ireland won’t.

They get tamed into the risk game, the ball cant be too far away from the pack or it gets too scary. Versus SA Barrett tried running it from behind the goa line to which Hansen applauded, one effort almost getting a try the other end.

As fans you’ll never see that stuff, because you’re so....tight. Too much ‘risk’. Laugh Can imagine the dads all getting their kids to watch, yes, a pushover...no wait, another pushover. ‘No thanks a Dad, we’ll kick around at the back’.

Tis a pity there’s not more courage in this game, little unwillingness to explore ones potential. Three early Irish pushovers to seal the win. Ho hum. Seen that before many times from the Boks. Enjoy it while you can because one things certain, it has a short shelf life.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M_6Ez0U6pi4

Ha ha, one solitary moment,
Better to do several...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Cby41N3PJU


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Post by Don Alfonso on Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:29 am

I just thought it showed courage, and willingness to explore potential. Stockdale (a winger) scored a record amount of tries for one player in his debut Six Nations. Doesn't sound like Ireland grinding out pushover tries.

Your narrative is attractive because it's neat, but that's all it is - a narrative. The tired old trope of " their rugby is so boooooooring" is just a device rolled out, as is often the case, to make fans of losing teams feel better about having lost. Why not get rid of tries and just have a panel of judges, marking the teams throwing the ball about out of ten?

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Post by rodders on Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:39 am

I thought that was a superb performance by Ireland, the best of 2019 by some distance.

A few people were tipping Scotland before the game but they were really smashed in almost every aspect of the game.  Getting the 2 early tries was key, once the weather deteriorated whoever was chasing the game was always going to struggle.

We were never going to get into a lose game with them and allow them a foothold, it was always going to be the case of who could impose their game plan on the other, and thankfully that was us. If Scotland had of got the lead early it may have been different.

There will be things to work on but there were so many positives, especially the way we managed the 10 minute period with Beirne in the bin and the defense across the board was sensational. The line out was solid and we looked very physical up front, a step up again from the back to back wins over Wales.

So many players looked on top form - Best, Stander, Henderson, Murray, Furlong, Ryan, Ringrose etc. - and with Henshaw, Kearney and Earls to come back in. The one negative is Sexton doesn't look match fit, he was struggling with the hamstring from quite early on.  

If we can get past Japan next week though, we can afford to rotate a bit to keep things fresh for an epic showdown with the Boks. On this evidence I would fancy our chances of getting to last 4.
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Post by eirebilly on Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:45 am

Right,

From that game I would have to say that POM (as well as he played and he did play well) needs to be pushed from 6 and CJ start there for the big matches with Conan at 8. It was clearly a better balance and allowed CJ to be more attacking.

Henderson, well what a game he had. Keeps up this form and he and Ryan will go very well together.

Aki, Aki has to drop to the bench and out of the match day squad. (I know I sound like a broken record but he is simply not good enough). Ringrose to play 13 with Henshaw as back up and Farrell or Henshaw to play 12.

Larmour is good for the less important games but Kearney is an absolute must for the big important games at 15.
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Post by EWT Spoons on Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:55 am

I've not read this thread since the game, as it would likely just depress me having to relive it, but just wanted to say well done Ireland, only one team in it from the moment you got the first try and no complaints on the result. I mean loads of complaints about how we played, but no argument about who deserved to win.

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Post by SecretFly on Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:59 am

EWT Spoons wrote:I've not read this thread since the game, as it would likely just depress me having to relive it, but just wanted to say well done Ireland, only one team in it from the moment you got the first try and no complaints on the result.  I mean loads of complaints about how we played, but no argument about who deserved to win.

We've been there a few times this year, EWT. Completely deflated. But one side had to lose that game. Had we lost it then getting out of the pool would be still the priority. And the mood has to go up again to achieve that - both players and fans. And if will with Scotland. Still absolutely all to play for.

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Post by RDW on Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:03 am

It's not the losing that's the issue - Ireland were heavy favourites so we weren't really expecting a win - it was the manner of performance. Also, it was the fact that we have been here 6 or 7 times under Townsend, the same failings where we clearly haven't learnt our lessons.

There's a lot of anger in Scottish rugby fans and former players on social media, and rightly so.

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Post by rodders on Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:03 am

eirebilly wrote:Right,

From that game I would have to say that POM (as well as he played and he did play well) needs to be pushed from 6 and CJ start there for the big matches with Conan at 8. It was clearly a better balance and allowed CJ to be more attacking.

I thought VDF was incredible, Scotland couldn't deal with the line speed he and Ringrose brought in defense. For me he is one of the first names on the team sheet.

CJ had a great game though and Conan did well at 8 but it is hard to see O'Mahoney not starting.
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Post by eirebilly on Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:08 am

Its very hard to see POM not starting, I agree rodders but right now I would not start him. The balance was so much better with CJ at 6, VDF at 7 and Conan at 8.

I have always ben a fan of VdF and feel he or Ryan is the future Captain of Ireland after Best.
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Post by Collapse2005 on Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:13 am

rodders wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Right,

From that game I would have to say that POM (as well as he played and he did play well) needs to be pushed from 6 and CJ start there for the big matches with Conan at 8. It was clearly a better balance and allowed CJ to be more attacking.

I thought VDF was incredible, Scotland couldn't deal with the line speed he and Ringrose brought in defense. For me he is one of the first names on the team sheet.  

CJ had a great game though and Conan did well at 8 but it is hard to see O'Mahoney not starting.

No time for being sentimental, thats two games in a row that our backrow have had their best games of the year. CJ is clearly a better 6, in fact he isnt really an 8 at all. VdF is undroppable at 7 after that game and Conan is a natural 8 and on form.

That said POM will be definitely be back at some point. Our first two lineouts went to him (POM) and we won them and that set the tone for a great day for Best and the lineout.

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Post by SecretFly on Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:26 am

eirebilly wrote:

Larmour is good for the less important games but Kearney is an absolute must for the big important games at 15.

Larmour is very young and learning valuable lessons out there in the best way to learn them, in intense games with real prizes up for grabs.

Kearney is an aging player that at any time might get the injury that knocks him out of the World Cup completely.  So it's frightening to use the word 'must' about him.  I don't share that opinion on 'must' about him though.

It's great to have him there.  It's good to think he's in the form to be chosen for the trip.  And it's good to think he's an option for tougher games to come.  But if he's gone, he's gone and Ireland will still have to believe they have the tools to win the big games.  In theory, I think they do have those tools - even if Sexton misses a big game, even if Murray misses a big game.  We have the tools to still compete with the top sides.  Not being smug and not saying we'd win, but we'd compete and we might win.

Besides, Larmour played in possibly the most important game of the WC in making our chances of getting past the quarters more possible.  Scotland was a very important game.  How do we rank important games?  The team still have to beat Japan, Russia and Samoa to make the first day mean anything.

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Post by rodders on Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:37 am

SecretFly wrote:
eirebilly wrote:

Larmour is good for the less important games but Kearney is an absolute must for the big important games at 15.

Larmour is very young and learning valuable lessons out there in the best way to learn them, in intense games with real prizes up for grabs.

Kearney is an aging player that at any time might get the injury that knocks him out of the World Cup completely.  So it's frightening to use the word 'must' about him.  I don't share that opinion on 'must' about him though.

I thought Larmour did really well but he wasn't really put under much pressure.

Assuming we do play the springboks in the QF I would really hope to see Kearney back and fit.

I think Kearney is only good for one or 2 big performances a season now so him sitting out some of the group games isn't a bad thing.
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Ireland [1] vs Scotland [7] Pool A, Match 6, RWC 2019 - Page 10 Empty Re: Ireland [1] vs Scotland [7] Pool A, Match 6, RWC 2019

Post by SecretFly on Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:59 am

rodders wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
eirebilly wrote:

Larmour is good for the less important games but Kearney is an absolute must for the big important games at 15.

Larmour is very young and learning valuable lessons out there in the best way to learn them, in intense games with real prizes up for grabs.

Kearney is an aging player that at any time might get the injury that knocks him out of the World Cup completely.  So it's frightening to use the word 'must' about him.  I don't share that opinion on 'must' about him though.

I thought Larmour did really well but he wasn't really put under much pressure.

Assuming we do play the springboks in the QF I would really hope to see Kearney back and fit.

I think Kearney is only good for one or 2 big performances a season now so him sitting out some of the group games isn't a bad thing.

Of course you try to cushion the older more influential lads as much as possible in preparation for the bigger games.  But let's say we meet SA in QF with Kearney in position and we win; Kearney running 15 magnificently.  But let's say he also gets a serious injury late in the game and is out of the rest of our journey.
Do fans really go into themselves and have the wakes and tears about our future hopes being shattered?

I won't if it happens.  Larmour did fine and if we try to pretend he wasn't under pressure, being given the toughest pool assignment in theory and whilst under the media spotlight and against high speed unstructured rugby kings Scotland?  He was under plenty of pressure both in the mind and during the game.

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Ireland [1] vs Scotland [7] Pool A, Match 6, RWC 2019 - Page 10 Empty Re: Ireland [1] vs Scotland [7] Pool A, Match 6, RWC 2019

Post by Old Man on Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:12 am

rodders wrote:I thought that was a superb performance by Ireland, the best of 2019 by some distance.

A few people were tipping Scotland before the game but they were really smashed in almost every aspect of the game.  Getting the 2 early tries was key, once the weather deteriorated whoever was chasing the game was always going to struggle.

We were never going to get into a lose game with them and allow them a foothold, it was always going to be the case of who could impose their game plan on the other, and thankfully that was us. If Scotland had of got the lead early it may have been different.

There will be things to work on but there were so many positives, especially the way we managed the 10 minute period with Beirne in the bin and the defense across the board was sensational. The line out was solid and we looked very physical up front, a step up again from the back to back wins over Wales.

So many players looked on top form - Best, Stander, Henderson, Murray, Furlong, Ryan, Ringrose etc. - and with Henshaw, Kearney and Earls to come back in. The one negative is Sexton doesn't look match fit, he was struggling with the hamstring from quite early on.  

If we can get past Japan next week though, we can afford to rotate a bit to keep things fresh for an epic showdown with the Boks. On this evidence I would fancy our chances of getting to last 4.

Yes it was ominous, the Irish has made a statement, they definitely number one on my power rankings.

It was a comprehensive performance, they are sure to meet SA in the quarters. SA will have to improve vastly and execute a lot better if they want to get past Ireland who execute very well, and is tactically very astute.


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Post by rodders on Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:26 am

I think it is difficult to take too much from the group games, once the QFs come it will start over and form in the groups won't come into it.

In the last 2 RWCs we've performed very well in the group and just haven't delivered in the QF.

I do think we have much better depth than previous years and should have a lot more in the tank come the KO stages.
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