2020 And Beyond: Andy Farrell's Ireland

First topic message reminder :

I've started this thread to appease the mocker gods.


It's almost the end of an era as Schmidt's time is coming to an end. Farrell is the new coach and will bring in his own way of doing things. Mike Catt is the new attack coach and John Fogarty takes over from Greg Feel.


There'll be changes in squad selections too with players possibly being involved with the squad for the last time in this world cup. Ireland don't do world cup cycles like other teams so for instance the 32 year old Healy won't be gotten rid of even though he's unlikely to make the next world cup.


There's a new generation of players emerging now so who do you think will make the squad in 2020 and the proceeding years?

Honest question then - and maybe no one outside really knows - but was Farrell running the team this season? Or, at least, did he take on a significantly greater role?

In which case...has what happened to England in 2015 literally happened to Ireland in 2019, with Farrell being the consistent thread?

It's a question that will presumably not be answered fully, if ever, for years to come.

miaow wrote:Honest question then - and maybe no one outside really knows - but was Farrell running the team this season? Or, at least, did he take on a significantly greater role?

In which case...has what happened to England in 2015 literally happened to Ireland in 2019, with Farrell being the consistent thread?

It's a question that will presumably not be answered fully, if ever, for years to come.

If we play as lethargic in the 6N as we've done all through 2019, then yep, maybe people will begin to scratch their head and think aloud, was em..... was Farrell the weak link all along?
Yep, depending on how we perform - not how we do in terms of winning it or not - but if we're as impotent and one dimensional in performance terms then it might be as early as after the next 6N that alarm bells are ringing.
Don't think it will be so but who knows... we wait.

The Great Aukster wrote:Schmidt's perseverance is phenomenal. Turning a sow's ear into a silk purse visibly took its toll on Joe and he must have been approaching burnout. Farrell would do well to follow Joe's lead and nothing would delight Joe more than to see a legacy of success built on his foundation.

Agreed

Okay.  Enough criticism of Ireland and Joe Schmidt's systems.

Now on to another few sitting ducks.  The critics.  People like me in other words.  

I'm all for balance and so now the focus changes.

Is it not time now for someone like Ronan O'Gara to quit crapping from the safety of his abode in France where he was accostumed to talking up his nose (for thus was the extreme angle he chose for his 'selfie' footage on Off The Ball during the WC) ... and instead come home to prepare himself to assist in some way our assault on the next WC?

He's no spring chicken.  I don't know how much coaching 'experience' he's looking for before he decides he's a man and a 'work experience' excuse at this point is just delaying our access to his full on genius.

I'm being a little flippant of course but not much, as I do probably think Ronan has a lot of info stored in that brain that might aid Ireland to finally at least look like a team with a chance during the WC itself rather than a year out as we usually do.

At the moment, Ronan is more a psychology overview pundit in his broadcasts.  He tends to focus on how the player feels and thinks rather than the indepth practical tactics and techniques he'd be concentrating on in his day job.

At times he appeared very emotionally detached from the notion of his country trying - an failing - in Japan.  He often shrugged his shoulders and suggested he had too much on his own plate in France to be overly worked up about anything happening in Japan.  And that's fair enough.  He has to focus on his own job.  
But here's an Irish coach who has played at the highest levels, coached in France, coached in New Zealand, now back in France.  He might have no interest in coaching Ireland, even as an assistant, or indeed no interest in coaching at International at all.  Again, so be it if so.  But if he was interested in coaching Ireland one day, I think he'd want to be starting to place himself in and around the environment sooner than later.  

He now has valuable insight into the background day to day experiences of players that emerge from the formidable production line in New Zealand.  He now even potentially knows how that tight system works from club coaches up to Hansen.  He's said he had encounters with Hansen whilst there, a guy who remained suspicious of him and his presence in NZ.

So - even as kicking coach (and I think he'd up our success stats there) he could impart a lot of knowledge that would let our Internationals know the standards they should expect of themselves, the standards that wouldn't be tolerated in a place like NZ, and finally even as an assistant, he might be able to encourage training concentration on areas that might not be fully appreciated right now in Irish training camps.

So whada'ya say, Ronan?  Time to stop teleconferencing and time to pick up the phone and apply for a kicking coach job with IRFU?

O’Gara is in his first job as head coach. He needs at least a couple of years showing he can make it as head coach. Rather than talking a load of Shiite which he is very good at.

ROG is only two years younger than Andy Farrell but compare their coaching paths. Rog has chosen the brick by brick approach to his experience wall so he needs to build on the top layers before reaching the pinnacle.

The Great Aukster wrote:ROG is only two years younger than Andy Farrell but compare their coaching paths. Rog has chosen the brick by brick approach to his experience wall so he needs to build on the top layers before reaching the pinnacle.

Good one, Aukster. That actually sounds like something O'Gara might say in one of his more pensive philosophical moments.

o'gara played for the best part of a decade longer than farrell, though, didnt he?

miaow wrote:o'gara played for the best part of a decade longer than farrell, though, didnt he?

Yep..... thus why Sexton screamed at him in defiance that time... "Will you ever f**k off, ROG and let me in!!!!"

If anyone was watching some of the pro 14 today I would take the whole connacht back line with Shane Daly from munster given the way they play the game. Just to move on from the turgid Shiite we have had to put up with for the last twelve months and longer.

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:If anyone was watching some of the pro 14 today I would take the whole connacht back line with Shane Daly from munster given the way they play the game. Just to move on from the turgid Shiite we have had to put up with for the last twelve months and longer.  

Yes. We could do it for a year or two anyway and at least we and players might enjoy the style even if we dropped some results....

...then we could return to the frowning, serious plodding stuff as we grow back into the next WC.... because a few people have been suggesting SA played a Joe Schmidt game to beat England and hoist the World Cup ( better than us obviously because Joe's style has been basically SA style without the giants to play it well enough, consistently enough. )

SA pack were smaller than welsh and English.

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:SA pack were smaller than welsh and English.

Must be optical illusion stuff then, because they don't look small or play small.

Maybe. However let’s take an example from today. My motm was Am. completely unheralded player yet was probably the best back on show both defensively and attacking. We don’t have an equivalent

Oh for sure SA rely on more than their cliched big forwards.  They've been impressing me with the slick stuff and I couldn't work out why people weren't seeing that when SA wanted to attack it often seemed so fluid it looked downright casual...and few other sides managed to look casual in lethal attack...even the mighty ABs look rushed when rushing.
Oh SA won because they have a complete game but they also have a grand 'Schmidt' game and can service it because of their ability to withstand the stresses.

Incidentally, wouldn't it be a blast if Rassie's first job as Director was to employ Joe Schmidt as Head Coach...finally the man would get the right kind of players to prove the full potency of his 'system'.

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:SA pack were smaller than welsh and English.

Maybe collectively, once they had a player yellow carded. Otherwise obviously not.

SecretFly wrote:Oh for sure SA rely on more than their cliched big forwards.  They've been impressing me with the slick stuff and I couldn't work out why people weren't seeing that when SA wanted to attack it often seemed so fluid it looked downright casual...and few other sides managed to look casual in lethal attack...even the mighty ABs look rushed when rushing.
Oh SA won because they have a complete game but they also have a grand 'Schmidt' game and can service it because of their ability to withstand the stresses.

Incidentally, wouldn't it be a blast if Rassie's first job as Director was to employ Joe Schmidt as Head Coach...finally the man would get the right kind of players to prove the full potency of his 'system'.

Rassie would never hire Schmidt. Not in a million years. You might have missed some of the interaction when he was with Munster.

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Oh for sure SA rely on more than their cliched big forwards.  They've been impressing me with the slick stuff and I couldn't work out why people weren't seeing that when SA wanted to attack it often seemed so fluid it looked downright casual...and few other sides managed to look casual in lethal attack...even the mighty ABs look rushed when rushing.
Oh SA won because they have a complete game but they also have a grand 'Schmidt' game and can service it because of their ability to withstand the stresses.

Incidentally, wouldn't it be a blast if Rassie's first job as Director was to employ Joe Schmidt as Head Coach...finally the man would get the right kind of players to prove the full potency of his 'system'.

Rassie would never hire Schmidt. Not in a million years. You might have missed some of the interaction when he was with Munster.

He didn't like the Schmidt way? Seemed to have been a theme with Munster coaches if so.

Well if you saw how Munster ( and connacht) played today the Schmidt era is over. Although in fairness to connacht and their coaches (all from nz) they never followed the Schmidt plan

How embarrassing. Neil Francis seems to think sa copied joes game plan.

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:How embarrassing. Neil Francis seems to think sa copied joes game plan.  

They definitely lifeted elements of Ireland's gameplan, definitely.

I think Farrell has a big job on his hands, we were found to be well off the pace of the top 4 sides. I wouldn't be complacent about not being usurped by France and Australia either.

For all the talk of handling skills and offloading, ultimately it came down again to power and set piece dominance, so maybe Joe had the right idea all along.... just not quite the players and depth to see things through to the latter stages of the RWC.

I think we need a good 6N and continue to try and build depth through the provincial system. For all the improvements since 2015 we are still a bit off the top sides.

rodders wrote:I think Farrell has a big job on his hands, we were found to be well off the pace of the top 4 sides. I wouldn't be complacent about not being usurped by France and Australia either.

For all the talk of handling skills and offloading, ultimately it came down again to power and set piece dominance, so maybe Joe had the right idea all along.... just not quite the players and depth to see things through to the latter stages of the RWC.

I think we need a good 6N and continue to try and build depth through the provincial system. For all the improvements since 2015 we are still a bit off the top sides.

Even though we beat Wales twice in the lead up?

rodders wrote:....so maybe Joe had the right idea all along....

Right idea, wrong players.  It's kinda been an echo in his ears in recent years.  Right ideas Joe, but too few genuine candidates to implement them.  Resilience, resilience, resilience under high impact International peak standard rugby....that's what we keep proving we don't have enough of.

Oh perhaps right players too...but not for four, five, six or seven games in a row week after week at a WC.  So basically  wrong idea unless we had the right players, and we don't breed the right kind for Joe's gameplan as quickly as other Nations.

But it doesn't seem to matter much.  Our greatest quality is stubbornness.  And true, maybe Farrell will come out fighting in the 6N with more blunderbuss hits up the middle until players get suitably punch drunk to keep it up for 80 when their brains are neutralised by the shudders.  He might do that and we might get 3rd, 2nd, or might even get a 6N win.

Will we then conveniently forget the WC demands again or will we be able to retain focus this time and admit to ourselves that what we witnessed, although good, won't be good enough in a WC?

Exciting times.  Answers will be coming soon enough in the players he chooses and any evidence there might be of something less predictable in the pipeline.  The only thing we genuinely can modify is giving Irish players a game that lessens the physical load on them so that when they DO choose or need a physical game, they'll have the willingness and brute force to endure it.

Na, Joe is a control freak. That was the problem. The players were scared rigid that they would make a mistake. They could do it for a while, but eventually they got burnt out of it.

Rassie is an absolute brilliant coach who just gets the best out of his players and his coaching staff.

Jacques Nienaber will be new SA head coach.

Totally agree with the idea Schmidt became a control greak. That culture of self flagellation over errors is unhealthy, but more than that, it was the way he spoke in press conferences during the 6Ns. 'Yes, yes, we knew that they were going to do that, the very specific ruck defence/entry/competiton and, yes, it completely destroyed us but we knew it was coming and we'll do better net time hopefully/maybe with a better ref.'

Joe struck me as that nice/kind guy who will f you over in an instant - and apparently the players saw his temper, no? Just don't think that's the kind of coach players respond to when struggling, at all. Great for the media, avoiding grenades or whatever, but you'd much rather the d1ckhead coach like Cheika, or even Gatland, who will put their arm around you and back you up and fight your corner. Ideally you want the middle ground, but I do think 2015 scarred Schmidt and everthing Ireland did after that - including the successes - contributed to their downfall in Japan.

Case in point - how did Ireland play in the Autumn they beat NZ? Apart from that game, how did they play? I remember them looking pretty awful against Italy wasn't it?

Seems Ireland have thrown their lot in with the English set up now, though. Farrell, Lancaster, Rowntree etc. Also picking up McBryde, who I think has really come on as a coach. What's happening to Easterby? Any chance of a swap?

Collapse2005 wrote:

rodders wrote:I think Farrell has a big job on his hands, we were found to be well off the pace of the top 4 sides. I wouldn't be complacent about not being usurped by France and Australia either.

For all the talk of handling skills and offloading, ultimately it came down again to power and set piece dominance, so maybe Joe had the right idea all along.... just not quite the players and depth to see things through to the latter stages of the RWC.

I think we need a good 6N and continue to try and build depth through the provincial system. For all the improvements since 2015 we are still a bit off the top sides.

Even though we beat Wales twice in the lead up?

Fair point but they weren't really competitive games, albeit the game in Dublin had two close to full strength sides out. Ultimately in our 1 "real" game against Wales this year we were well beaten.

I don't think there is much between us on Wales on paper, arguably we have better depth but there is no denying they've had a much better 2019 than we have. Aside from the 2 warm up games mentioned and decent wins over Scotland and Samoa really we haven't impressed since we beat the ABs last November.

In term of power, pace and skill we have fallen behind the curve this year. Like 2007 I guess we may never know exactly were it went wrong but Farrell has a chance now to show he is part of the solution and not the problem.

Joe Schmidt's gameplan required obedience.  Obedience to the principles made it effective.  And it was effective.  It won games (against all sides that his team met over the years he had).  There wasn't one side that was left above the reach of his gamelan.  It beat them all at one time of another.... and for Ireland, that was a major step up in competitiveness during his tenure.

So control freak?  Yes.  
Were we happy for a lot of his term with the results coming in? Yes.  
Even the begrudgers begrudged quietly and drank their 'winning' rounds of drinks with smiling contentment.  

Joe Schmidt had less time than Gatland took with Wales.  Gatland had time for one or two 'rebirths' within the Welsh system.  Who can tell now that Schmidt wouldn't have had the same re-goes of fortune had he stayed on.  He was good for Ireland.  Plenty good.  And it was his personality and determination that pushed the goodness.

His big problem over time was his blindness not his coaching methods.  His big problem was that he simply couldn't compute the impact his style/gameplan was having on his players in a cumulative  context.  
We just didn't/still don't have the conveyor belt of player types that his system requires.  He just didn't want to seem to compute that into his philosophy.  I've forgotten the amount of times players came off the field breathing heavily, sucking for air and telling the world yet one more time: "That's one of the toughest games I've ever been involved in".  

They were telling the truth - over and over and over again. We made even easy games on paper into tough encounters because even when oodles of space was there in front of players, system focus meant we mostly stuck to system methods.

SA could run Joe's system with ease over five, six or seven weeks in a row.  We simply never could and Joe failed to appreciate that it was his plan that needed modifying to save the players he trusted to play it.  But opportunist 'gifted' players having a go themselves off the hoof ..that would have made the Joe's system more successful?  Rubbish.  Attack is coached with support runners knowing their roles.  Zebo doing his thing with freedom suddenly bringing ease to players working to a different system?  Rubbish.

SecretFly wrote:Joe Schmidt's gameplan required obedience.  Obedience to the principles made it effective.  And it was effective.  It won games (against all sides that his team met over the years he had).  There wasn't one side that was left above the reach of his gamelan.  It beat them all at one time of another.... and for Ireland, that was a major step up in competitiveness during his tenure.

So control freak?  Yes.  
Were we happy for a lot of his term with the results coming in? Yes.  

I wasn't. I always suspected it would end in tears for the players.

As for his gameplan. It was too restrictive. He didn't allow offloads. He didn't like passing. He didn't allow the ball to be spread out wide (unless after about 100 phases and a step from the line). Just truck, truck, truck, taking all the joy out of the game.

edit: If Andy Farrell has any sense, he should bring Simon Zebo into the camp to inspire a bit of confidence and fun back into the group. Schmidt has turned them all into robots and their batteries need recharging.

Joe took Ireland to new heights during his tenure - not compatible with failure or a misguided gameplan including the World Cup.

Ireland are a top 8 team based on resources but managed to creep into the top 4 under a master coach. Ireland have never progressed beyond the quarter finals of a RWC and in meeting the current back to back champions this year were massive underdogs to progress. Even if Ireland had topped their pool, an exit to eventual winners South Africa would not have been unexpected.
So was 2019 worse that 2015 where Ireland scraped past Italy and were hammered by Argentina in the quarters?
...or 2011 beating Australia in the pool but then losing to Wales?
2007 didn't make the KOs
2003 beaten by France in the 1/4s
1999 didn't make the quarter finals

An experimenting Ireland lost to England first up in the 6N, and never regained their composure eventually finishing third. It's still interesting that for a misfiring team supposedly stifled by Schmidt's control freakery they still finished joint second in the tries scored column.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Joe Schmidt's gameplan required obedience.  Obedience to the principles made it effective.  And it was effective.  It won games (against all sides that his team met over the years he had).  There wasn't one side that was left above the reach of his gamelan.  It beat them all at one time of another.... and for Ireland, that was a major step up in competitiveness during his tenure.

So control freak?  Yes.  
Were we happy for a lot of his term with the results coming in? Yes.  

I wasn't. I always suspected it would end in tears for the players.

As for his gameplan. It was too restrictive. He didn't allow offloads. He didn't like passing. He didn't allow the ball to be spread out wide (unless after about 100 phases and a step from the line). Just truck, truck, truck, taking all the joy out of the game.

edit: If Andy Farrell has any sense, he should bring Simon Zebo into the camp to inspire a bit of confidence and fun back into the group. Schmidt has turned them all into robots and their batteries need recharging.

Okay sin, you weren't happy when we were winning games we couldn't even dream of winning before Schmidt turned up.  I understand the dilemma when supreme principles are involved.

I've heard so much about Simon Zebo this WC, you'd swear he was the second coming of the guy that changed water into wine.  I didn't know whether to laugh my guts up or bust my iPad against the wall in anger.  Maybe Simon will creep back to Munster now that Darth Schmidt has departed.  Everyone will feel ready to cheer us on again when comic genius Zebo is back on stage in an Irish shirt.

Zebo would be great to get back in the camp.The lads are probably sick of Christy Moore at this stage so some new entertainers might freshen things up.

Outsider perspective - Zebo is a pretty ordinary flair player. Not sure how he's seen as the Irish Jason Robinson or Shane Williams. He wasn't bad but he wasn't great.

That said, the more I think about it, the more I believe Ireland have a massive, massive problem with not selecting English-based players for the national team. Or Welsh/Scottish/French-based as well. Imitating NZ's philosophies only work if you have the best natural ability in the world, like NZ'ers do, the best understanding of the basics etc. Feel like I'm repeating myself now, but it's not just skills, it's personality, and the inclination and desire to experience new things, earn more money (!!), play a different way, live a different way. All of these contribute to a team dynamic so I don't think it's a mad idea that 'freshness' in the Irish camp - from a player like Zebo - isn't a fundamental part of what keeps players ticking over.

Like England with Robshaw or just selecting what works in the Premiership and creating a hierarchy from that, if you just transplant what works in the provinces, the chances are you're not going to replicate their dominance at club level. Different standards, different mentality, different skills needed. But also, a player who is a leader at club level can become distinctly ordinary at test level. And vice versa - some players shine when they go up a level.

It does seem part of Schmidt's control freakery to want to effectively keep everything 'in house' and lift systems or whatever else from the 4 provinces, top down, diktat style, instead of actually creating a new, different 'club' among the national team itself. England appear to get that spot on this year - you don't do it by absolutely ripping in to players in front of their colleagues and fellow men. Particularly those who are still your rivals in many ways. He's got the wrong attitude to familiarity, I feel. Regimented, scheduled b0llockings...great, what a thing to look forward to, lads.

That is what I believe the fundamental difference between Gatland in Wales has been, and Schmidt in Ireland. And Townsend in Scotland as well, actually. Club teams become more than the sum of their parts under Gatland, and less under the latter - at least for the most part, when it really counts. Gatland selects 13 Ospreys and tops it up for familiarity, but builds on it, develops it; when the Scarlets were winning, he selected lots of players lik Shingler, Aled Davies, Prydie, James Davies etc. Reward club form but don't become obsessive about it - there's room for the Dragons (Connacht) boys who show ability and promise.

I do feel sorry for Schmidt as I believe he has world class capabilities but to get two RWCs so wrong isn't luck or chance - at least not just those things. It shows a failing, particularly over the last 10 months. And I honestly think Ireland are doing the wrong thing all over again - trying to implement an English 'system' by bringing in coaches to flood all levels of the club and test game, to get everyone on the same hymn sheet, but then not actually allowing players to (very, very quickly) develop a different way of living/playing/understanding life and rugby by moving overseas, really testing yourself as a man and as a pro, and seeing where the chips fall. You can't just import everything in and hope for the best. Irish rugby isn't good enough for that, in spite of how good Leinster is. Would Tadhg Beirne be anywhere near a cap if he'd stayed in Ireland or gone to, say, Connacht? Were Geordie Murphy etc. better players for going overseas? I just cannot see the logic for Ireland's rigidity tbh on the issue of selection. The IRFU seemed to bend over backwards to accommodate Sexton as well which strikes of hypocrisy.

Miaow, weren’t you flouncing off after the World Cup Final?

Aren't there more deceased people whose memories you'd like to desecrate for the sake of snide remarks on 606, Squirrel?

Just GO! For the good of the forum. Please. You promised it. Just be good to your word. Every thread is pointless with you picking an argument.

I give up with moderation on this site. I’ve tried to use reporting and PMs to mods. On all the the threads that you ignore this is just getting worse. No feedback and no action. When RDW posted he wanted to improve the site he obviously didn’t mean it and there’s now nowhere to raise problems as the thread was closed down and PMs to mods are ignored as well as reports.

Cyril wrote:Miaow, weren’t you flouncing off after the World Cup Final?

I read that post Cyril. Nothing wrong with it. You felt the need to just turn up at the next Miaow post and have a go? After having no contribution to the topic yourself?

You started that and then start moaning to the mods.

Then you pounce over to the one He has a go at me on then ask for both of us to be removed?


Pfff...

Taylorman,
Between you, both you and Miaow have wrecked this forum in the build up to the World Cup, during and afterwards.

Why don’t you give it a rest?

Well I’ve talked rugby today Cyril. You? Can’t see any. Perhaps you should? It is a rugby forum after all. Look forward to it.

There’s no point it’ll just get derailed by you two squabbling. Any proper discussion ends up pages back while you throw insults at each other.

I’ve reported it to the mods and sent PMs to them but they don’t seem to be bothered any more. Looks like they’ve given up too. Well done, you’ve won.

Alternatively, actually contribute something worthwhile Cyril instead of whatever bile you can produce from your fingertips in the time it takes for you go number 2? Chances are, if more people did that, there would be better #content.

You literally played your part in dragging the standards down on this site - and the old one - for basically a decade. You've made some horrible, petty, disgraceful accusations recently that anyone in good conscience should feel shame for - but not you, apparently. Where you get the idea you're whiter from white from, I have no idea.

Farrell is in a good position now. If he wants a fresh start the players are there to have a right clear out of the squad. All the provinces are also playing good attacking rugby now. No excuse to continue the limited style Schmidt played. I think both fans and players had enough of it. It was successful for a while but it doesn't mean a different style wouldn't have been a success either.


Farrells first move was to hire Catt. That signals a big change in style. His next move is the next squad announcement. That'll tell us a lot on his thinking .i.e a continuation of Schmidt's or a fresh start.

Not sure the players are there.
The excuse to continue playing the Schmidt style is that it worked and made Ireland the most successful that they have ever been. His style was more successful than the different styles that preceeded it, and there is no evidence to suggest that a new style would be any better, or whether Ireland have the players to sustain it.

What change will Catt make that will be better?

The Great Aukster wrote:Not sure the players are there.
The excuse to continue playing the Schmidt style is that it worked and made Ireland the most successful that they have ever been. His style was more successful than the different styles that preceeded it, and there is no evidence to suggest that a new style would be any better, or whether Ireland have the players to sustain it.

What change will Catt make that will be better?

A lot can happen in 4 years. Look at South Africa and how they turned it around with some coaching changes.

Like England, South Africa have loads more players to pick from so the coach can select a closer fit for his plan - both starters and backups.

The Great Aukster wrote:Like England, South Africa have loads more players to pick from so the coach can select a closer fit for his plan - both starters and backups.

Yet, SA has to pick from abroad with all these resources at their fingertips. That theory didn't work though with SA's previous coach and it did take 2 years for Rassie's gameplan to work.

Rassie, when talking about one of the things he learned from Irish rugby was that it is worthwhile putting resources into developing players and his criticism of SA was that it was too quick to discard players rather than develop them.

South Africa have such large resources they can afford to lose players to other nations like Ireland because those players wouldn't be picked for the Boks anyway.

Sin é wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Not sure the players are there.
The excuse to continue playing the Schmidt style is that it worked and made Ireland the most successful that they have ever been. His style was more successful than the different styles that preceeded it, and there is no evidence to suggest that a new style would be any better, or whether Ireland have the players to sustain it.

What change will Catt make that will be better?

A lot can happen in 4 years. Look at South Africa and how they turned it around with some coaching changes.

2nd best rugby culture and country in the world, though. Also arguably the best schools system.

The Great Aukster wrote:Not sure the players are there.
The excuse to continue playing the Schmidt style is that it worked and made Ireland the most successful that they have ever been. His style was more successful than the different styles that preceeded it, and there is no evidence to suggest that a new style would be any better, or whether Ireland have the players to sustain it.

What change will Catt make that will be better?

Cant argue with that at all. The proof is in the results, most of them anyway.

That said its a good time to move on and try new things.

Okay.  So this debate keeps going back and forward.

1. We should abandon/modify the Schmidt blueprint because we don't have the conveyer belt of players to sustain the brute physicality required for it.
2. We should pretty much keep the Schmidt blueprint because we don't have the conveyer belt of players with more silky skills to try other ways/modify our style.

That's basically the general overview of the back and forth.  It's doubtful the two camps will be finding common ground on those basic disagreements.

So what can all observers agree on?  Well, I heard it mentioned so much this year from all quarters that I think it's safe to assume that most people can agree that Ireland have been most vulnerable and most impotent when going behind and not having a cutting edge to claw back.  

So let's say Joe's methods are still the best provided we can find the next generation of players to take it forward.  Okay, but that still leaves the inherent weakness in the system - not having the cutting edge to reclaim a lead when needing to chase a game.  
That weakness hasn't been influenced by bad form of certain players or wrong players chosen.  It's just an inbuilt weakness in the system that emphasises defensive obedience, lack of risk taking, and methodical/training ground set-piece try scoring sequences.

So, in my view the only logical conclusion is that we need to modify our game plans and have them Actively coached, practiced, drilled to create a more incisive attack game When We Need It.  Because it doesn't matter how limited our players are in silky skills (a theory I strongly disagree with) - if you're losing whilst playing the more attritional, one dimensional, predictable-phaseplay-slog game.... then you're losing.
It's just logic then - the traditional Schmidt style Ireland has to be modified to a degree more or less, and therefore new habits must be given training time to perfect, and therefore the team will noticeably have a different looking style.  
Or we won't change anything and we'll go on losing to high octane running and physical sides that will either destroy us in a first half or claw back any lead we might have in the second half.

I believe Farrell will modify us noticeably.  But then I also believed right until the bitter end that Joe would finally unleash a more sexy version of Ireland.  Was quite enthusiastic about this year despite the dreadful results, because I thought Joe in his last year would bring something new to the party........ but of course, the worst incarnation of bang, bang, bang took to the stage again.