SF1 - Match Thread - ENGLAND v NEW ZEALAND - 26/10/19 - K/O 09:00 BST

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Post by miaow on Thu 17 Oct 2019, 9:55 pm

Again, making these early for the sake of ease and consistency.

ENGLAND

Team:Daly; Watson, Tuilagi, Farrell (capt), May; Ford, Youngs; M Vunipola, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Lawes, Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Marler, Cole, Kruis, Wilson, Heinz, Slade, Joseph.

NEW ZEALAND

Team: Beauden Barrett; Sevu Reece, Jack Goodhue, Anton Lienert-Brown, George Bridge; Richie Mo'unga, Aaron Smith; Joe Moody, Codie Taylor, Nepo Laulala, Brodie Retallick, Sam Whitelock, Scott Barrett, Ardie Savea, Kieran Read (capt).

Replacements: Dane Coles, Ofa Tuungafasi, Angus Ta'avao, Patrick Tuipulotu, Sam Cane, TJ Perenara, Sonny Bill Williams, Jordie Barrett.



Venue: Yokohama
Referee: Nigel Owens
AR1: Romain Poite
AR2: Pascal Gauzere
TMO: Marius Joncker


Last edited by miaow on Thu 24 Oct 2019, 1:52 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post by majesticimperialman on Thu 17 Oct 2019, 10:00 pm

QF1 England. Hope i have not Jinx England right now.

QF2 Ireland. Head say's NZ Heart say's Ireland.

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Post by ebop on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 9:34 pm

England looked pretty laborious against an error ridden Australian side so I reckon the ABs have got this in the bag. 30-10.
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Post by majesticimperialman on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 9:37 pm

ebop wrote:England looked pretty laborious against an error ridden Australian side so I reckon the ABs have got this in the bag.

Really? New Zealand only looked good because Ireland did not pose too much of a threat.

So in other words Ireland made New Zealand look better than they was. Hug

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Post by Big on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 9:43 pm

ebop wrote:England looked pretty laborious against an error ridden Australian side so I reckon the ABs have got this in the bag. 30-10.

And New Zealand didn't win by much more against an Ireland side putting in an atrocious performance. So to be honest both teams must be shockingly bad really. Probably not worth bothering to watch the game, I expect it will be an error strewn bore fest. Thankfully the other semi will be much better whoever gets through.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 9:49 pm

Big wrote:
ebop wrote:England looked pretty laborious against an error ridden Australian side so I reckon the ABs have got this in the bag. 30-10.

And New Zealand didn't win by much more against an Ireland side putting in an atrocious performance.  So to be honest both teams must be shockingly bad really.  Probably not worth bothering to watch the game, I expect it will be an error strewn bore fest.  Thankfully the other semi will be much better whoever gets through.

Nicely put.Very Happy

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Post by Taylorman on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 10:13 pm

I think it’ll be a great match. Both sides have strengths in different areas. I think that was missing in our respective oppositions today. Oz were simply ‘too Oz’. Too loose.

Once again they got caught out with defence issues out wide and like Scotland in 2015 gave two intercepts away trying stuff on attack. England punished both.

Ireland were simply not allowed to dominate in the narrow scope they normally do.

I see the biggest advantage NZ has is they’ve just got validation they’re on the right track, one that’s been set for over a year, probably two or three. Pre quarters no one really knows where everyone’s at because pool play is not a go home or stay outcome.

We’ve also now beaten two sides originally considered potential champs, two of probably five, one convincingly in knockout.

That ticks a lot of boxes going forward, no matter who we play, and the 2011 and 2015 semi efforts become clearer as attainable goals.

England get confidence another way. They haven’t yet played a pre tournament ‘pick’ and were even robbed of playing an outside pick...France.

But the manner of the win against Oz...creating chances out wide, individuals stepping up, punishing mistakes heavily...gives England an equal validation they’re on the right track.

The manner of the win considering the rating of the opposition seems to put NZ ahead slightly comparatively for this meeting, but nothing more.

Next week is for me the clash of the best two sides at this tournament so far.

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Post by ebop on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 10:31 pm

Mako Vunipola looked like he’s struggling
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Post by majesticimperialman on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 10:39 pm

I personally think this game is 50/50, both teams playing really well too put the amount of points on the opposition like they did.

I do not see any team putting a cricket score on the other,1/5 points total in the game.

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Post by TightHEAD on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 10:44 pm

ebop wrote:Mako Vunipola looked like he’s struggling

He always looks like that whether his played 60/70mins, puts the kettle on, had sex or puts the rubbish out!
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Post by Taylorman on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 10:48 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:I personally think this game is 50/50, both teams playing really well too put the amount of points on the opposition like they did.

I do not see any team putting a cricket score on the other,1/5 points total in the game.

You do know many said that about our last game? ...just checking. thumbsup

I don’t either but I’d say the ABs getting even better, much better, is one likely possibility.

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Post by TightHEAD on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 10:50 pm

At least we won't have that useless Kiwi TMO again!
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Post by majesticimperialman on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 10:57 pm

TightHEAD wrote:At least we won't have that useless Kiwi TMO again!
NO, but you might have Wayne Barnes???????

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Post by TightHEAD on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 11:03 pm

Don't think we will.
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Post by miaow on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 11:17 pm

TightHEAD wrote:
ebop wrote:Mako Vunipola looked like he’s struggling

He always looks like that whether his played 60/70mins, puts the kettle on, had sex or puts the rubbish out!

How was it?

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Post by ebop on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 11:23 pm

miaow wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:
ebop wrote:Mako Vunipola looked like he’s struggling

He always looks like that whether his played 60/70mins, puts the kettle on, had sex or puts the rubbish out!

How was it?
Mako is a sloppy looking dude and just needs a moustache to complete the vibe
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Post by ebop on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 11:24 pm

On the contrary, you have Martin Tuilagi, whom talks like he was born in a castle. It truly is the most remarkable thing to witness.
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Post by miaow on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 12:26 am

Drawing parallels with 4 years ago, NZ beat South Africa by 2 points after smashing France in the QFs - a fairly old, but experienced, SA'n side that beat a shattered and bare-boned Wales with a late try, and had lost to Japan in the groups.

If analogies between tournaments are relevant - and I'm not too sure they are in this case - there's perhaps hope that NZ are unlikely to back up today's performance with a similar barnstorming game.

Considering England barely got going and managed to beat Australia, this game will hopefully live up to the billing, as at the moment it's looking pretty monumental.

Perhaps a far more interesting - and more important - subtext will be that England and NZ will both have benefited and/or suffered from cancelled games, and unless France beat Wales, will be the only 2 teams to have missed a game to be in this position. With fatigue playing little factor in England's tournament so far, you have to think one of the key worries pre tournament - that '5 game' streak they would have to go through to win the cup - isn't even an issue at this point.

No idea who to call. You make NZ favourites simply because it's NZ and everything that means, but by how much? Hard to say.

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Post by yappysnap on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 12:57 am

NZ are still the favourites.

England played NZ a couple of years ago when NZ were poor and we were at home. We still lost. I cant see this NZ team losing in a neutral territory.

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Post by Taylorman on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 12:58 am

Geez you have a warped way of analysing stuff.

Ok, let’s look at what we have. Assuming you agree with the fact that most people considered there are five potential winners of this tournament before it started..NZ, SA, England, Ireland, Wales.

Oz, France and Argie weren’t considered likely, or at least as likely as the others. Correct?

So far, NZ have beaten two, one totally convincingly, and are a third.

England did not even play a tier one (sorry, likely candidate, they played Argie) in pool, and played Oz, not considered likely, as it showed.

So they go into the semis having met none capable of winning this, so assumption is, they’ve yet to be tested.

Correct?

Now they go up against who is, tonight’s games aside...CLEARLY the best performed side so far by the Irish result.

So for this tournament alone, that ‘easily’ puts the ABs as favourites in a pure logical sense.

In 2015, they beat SA, what are you trying to conjure up there? That they didn’t beat them well enough to suggest that’s reason here?

That’s your argument? That an ‘impression’ of winning is a key factor?

NZ are faves cos:

1 they are current and twice defending champs (historical)
2 they are no. 1 ranked
3 they have consistently been rated by all bookmakers and the power rankings as favourites, and now have the World rugby media ‘drooling’ over them
4 they have beaten 2 of the favoured 5 teams, one by thrashing

And those are only the ‘facts’. My personal opinion is they are still raw, and will get MUCH better in the next two matches.

So can you tell me again why England deserve favouritism for the semi please. I’d like to understand the facts behind your logic.

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Post by miaow on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 1:06 am

Taylorman wrote:Geez you have a warped way of analysing stuff.

Seriously, tone it down, man. It's beyond boring. You're arguing with something no-one has said ffs...

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Post by Taylorman on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 1:18 am

I replied to this

’You make NZ favourites simply because it's NZ and everything that means, but by how much? Hard to say.’

True I didn’t say you said England but by how much?...61/39, as per the power rankings is as good as any. Certainly close enough to be concerned about an England win.

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Post by hugehandoff on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 1:50 am

New Zealanders are the most arrogant supporters in the world Shocked


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Post by ebop on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 2:49 am

That’s a pretty big call. You should see what 7.5 says when someone asks him who the best team in the world is. It’s pretty entertaining and he actually replies with a straight face without any hint of a joke.
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Post by Pie on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 3:59 am

Taylorman whatever your blind optimism tells you about next weekend, and I expect you'll win, you're too myopic too understand England barely got out of 2nd gear today. Aussie handed them the game with ridiculous kicks for starters. Next week you will see a level of intensity up front that will definitely cause NZ problems. Added to which they have a ridiculously strong bench.

It will not be like parlous Ireland at all

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Post by Taylorman on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 4:10 am

Who said it would be? I was talking about favouritism. I know it will be tough.

But then, you could have said that about the Irish effort last night before the match. No way will Ireland just fold...yet that’s exactly what they did.

‘One’ of the possibilities next week is the ABs do the same to England as they did Ireland. If you can’t see that then you are the myopic one.

But it is only one. I expect England to be competitive and may win, I’ve said all along theyre the ones to beat. But to exclude a demolition after one has just happened is to be the same that you accuse of here.

The main reason the ABs won last night is because man for man they had better individual rugby players on the field each operating at far higher levels than their opposite.

The also have far better players man for man vs England as well. Doesnt mean they’ll win on that basis either, but it will be a big factor.

Looking forward to a great game.

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Post by whocares on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 7:33 am

ABs are heavy favourite despite England good form: they have beaten 1 good team on their way (SA) totally owned and humiliated the former number 1 team (Ireland) and didn’t drop a sweat against lesser opposition while England managed to only draw against France FFS. They also have experience, best players eva, best coaches, the Haka (copyright) and the best and more knowledgeable supporters in the world. England has what ? Boris Johnson and a strange song about chariots? Very Happy kiss
On a slightly more serious note I hope it’s a French ref that gets appointed to spice things up Wink

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Post by Taylorman on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 7:54 am

Well we drew with Italy so there.

The people I feel sorry for are the Japanese paying public watching the haka start and simultaneously watching the whole stadium break out into Swing low...they won’t have any idea what they’ve walked into. Laugh

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Post by Big on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 8:03 am

New Zealand are rightly favourites and 61 to 39 sounds about right to me. But some of the press I've read took the praise way too far, you'd think that they just need to turn up to the next couple of games and it's all in the bag.


I hope for the players sake that Hanson keep them isolated from it. If they go into the game thinking that they are some kind of rugby gods that cannot be beaten, that is exactly when they will get beaten.

Actually maybe I should hope he doesn't isolate them from the hype. It would be ideal for us if the message this week is that they just need to turn up.

As a bit of an aside, one interesting thing today will be what happens in France v Wales. If, against the odds, France blow Wales away, it will raise serious questions about what impact the week off for the 3 teams has been and how much benefit it has given them.

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Post by Old Man on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 8:11 am

In theory England can go up a few gears, but the question is how many gears do they have?

In theory New Zealand is raw. How raw is debatable, a few combinations might be new, but raw, I would suggest they are medium to well done, definitely not raw or rare or even medium.

All this theory goes by the way side once they step onto the field, and previous form means diddely squat if they don’t perform on match day.

Having said all that, I believe it is perhaps 55/45 in New Zealand’s favour.

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Post by TightHEAD on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 12:28 pm

hugehandoff wrote:New Zealanders are the most arrogant supporters in the world Shocked


Did you see the Air NZ ad for the Irish!

So arrogant. Not rugby at all.
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Post by LondonTiger on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 12:43 pm

hugehandoff wrote:New Zealanders are the most arrogant supporters in the world Shocked


Generally only the online ones. Go to a game in NZ and you will find the vast majority to be knowledgeable and gracious.

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Post by LondonTiger on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 12:44 pm

Old Man wrote:In theory England can go up a few gears, but the question is how many gears do they have?

In theory New Zealand is raw. How raw is debatable, a few combinations might be new, but raw, I would suggest they are medium to well done, definitely not raw or rare or even medium.

All this theory goes by the way side once they step onto the field, and previous form means diddely squat if they don’t perform on match day.

Having said all that, I believe it is perhaps 55/45 in New Zealand’s favour.

80-20 for me.


Edit: Stuff Making it 60:40

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Post by whocares on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 12:49 pm

After witnessing the mediocrity in today’s QF it’s safe to say that this will be the final in advance (with ABs to be 80-90% favs still).

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Post by BamBam on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 1:40 pm

Given we were 1-2 in the rankings when the draw was done, how has this been drawn as the semi final match when both won the groups picard

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Post by Old Man on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 1:44 pm

BamBam wrote:Given we were 1-2 in the rankings when the draw was done, how has this been drawn as the semi final match when both won the groups picard

Because world rugby are the only ones that don’t seed teams.

normally you would have seedings the way tennis is done.

so 1-4 and 2-3 meet in the semifinals.

However world rugby just put the top four in a bag and draw them randomly.

that way anything s possible 1 can therefor meet anyone of the top four

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Post by BamBam on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 1:45 pm

That would explain it, thanks old man

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Post by Old Man on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 1:48 pm

OK

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 2:15 pm

60-40 in the Kiwis favour for me. Whichever team goes on to win will be strong favourites for the final.

England’s discipline and kicking out of hand will have to be better in this fixture, and their big name players will need to have the game of their lives.

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Post by Taylorman on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 2:18 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
hugehandoff wrote:New Zealanders are the most arrogant supporters in the world Shocked


Generally only the online ones. Go to a game in NZ and you will find the vast majority to be knowledgeable and gracious.

And you’ll also find those are the same people. kiss

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 3:08 pm

Taylorman wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
hugehandoff wrote:New Zealanders are the most arrogant supporters in the world Shocked


Generally only the online ones. Go to a game in NZ and you will find the vast majority to be knowledgeable and gracious.

And you’ll also find those are the same people. kiss

Quite perceptive T OK Was going to suggest so but damn it, a Kiwi beat another Irishman to the line

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Post by LondonTiger on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 3:12 pm

Taylorman wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
hugehandoff wrote:New Zealanders are the most arrogant supporters in the world Shocked


Generally only the online ones. Go to a game in NZ and you will find the vast majority to be knowledgeable and gracious.

And you’ll also find those are the same people. kiss

Nah, it is easier to hide the ignorance and arrogance among a crowd of 30k. Much harder in a crowd of 2.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 3:30 pm

I doubt England would have beaten a New Zealand team on fire like they were yesterday. The question is whether we've got the game to stop them playing like that, and give us a chance.

England under Jones have only one game against New Zealand. I thought we'd lose, not least because we were missing players, but we ended up making a close game of it. I'd say New Zealand have improved since then, and we have more confidence, so it might be a similar game. I don't think we'll be blown away nor them by us, although history has many more examples of the former than the latter.

If only one of England and Wales makes the final and wins it, then they'll have earned the title by beating the three Tri-Nations teams.

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Post by Big on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 3:55 pm

Big wrote:


As a bit of an aside, one interesting thing today will be what happens in France v Wales. If, against the odds, France blow Wales away, it will raise serious questions about what impact the week off for the 3 teams has been and how much benefit it has given them.

Much as we all might like to think it was the brilliance of our two teams that led to two bigger than expected wins yesterday, the France Wales game has made me think that we and France have benefited from the rest. I don't think England and New Zealand are as much better than Aus and Ireland as the matches and score-lines suggested, and it took a red card to stop France from getting a comfortable win against a normally much better Wales side. The fact as I see it is that all 3 sides that had a break seemed to have had better line speed, more physicality at the breakdown, and were just that little bit slicker in attack - all things I'd expect to see with reduced fatigue. Thankfully it won't affect the semi - with both Eng and NZ being in the same position, but I do think the QF results should be taken with a pinch of salt. And I do think that whichever of Wales and South Africa makes the final they will be at a bit of a disadvantage.

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Post by Mr Bounce on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 3:57 pm

The thing is, England-NZ last year was played with fourth and fifth choice loosehead props and a flanker at No.8. We were clearly missing a lot of good players and yet (admittedly with home advantage played in the rain) only lost by a point. They were 15-0 up at one point. Add to that a marginal (but correct) offside call for a chargedown and they would have won. The point is, they made it difficult for NZ and really put the pressure on.

England will be up for this, have no doubts. Will they win? They might. And as an England fan supporting his team against the best in the world? That will do for me. If everyone is playing at the top of their game, then we have a good chance of making the final. The All Blacks are not Gods. They are men, albeit bl**dy good rugby players. If the Aussies (who most have ripped apart on these boards) can beat them, then so can we.

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Post by LondonTiger on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 4:28 pm

Big wrote: And I do think that whichever of Wales and South Africa makes the final they will be at a bit of a disadvantage.

Really only because they play their semi on Sunday, so have one day less rest.

The bulk of the Wales team had an 11 day break before today. SA last played 12 days earlier and that was their second team getting a run out.

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Post by hugehandoff on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 7:41 pm

Scary thing for me re the New Zealand performance was the return to form of Kieran Read, the lovely off-loads and having Retallick back in the engine room. They looked very impressive. England have a chance of course and will need to apply lots of pressure to the NZ backs. Ireland were too awful to do this and we will need to play our best game. No missing touch on penalty kicks (x3). Basically we need to be on fire and still it may not be enough, but lets at least give it a real crack.

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Post by Gooseberry on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 7:57 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Big wrote: And I do think that whichever of Wales and South Africa makes the final they will be at a bit of a disadvantage.

Really only because they play their semi on Sunday, so have one day less rest.

The bulk of the Wales team had an 11 day break before today. SA last played 12 days earlier and that was their second team getting a run out.

I think the disadvantage is they aren't as good as the team they'll be playing. Plus if its Wales who get through there might not be many of them left by then.

Jokes aside its not just the rest but also the intensity of the tests theyve played. Wales made heavy weather of some of their group games and when balls out against Aus. A tough game again today, and youd kind of assume the SA game will be a physical challenge and close, hopefully without any elbows to the face this time but the Boks are little better than the french when it comes to outright thuggery. Maybe less so for SA who had a tough game against NZ, and were run ragged by Japan only being able to relax late. But England have yet to be really pushed in this tournament, and NZ have had a pretty soft ride too. Even if as hoped that semi is an epic both teams should be in better shape come the final than their opposition. Wales already look tattered and had injury trouble coming into the tournament, there were quite a few more hobblers by the end of today.



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Post by Taylorman on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 8:14 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:The thing is, England-NZ last year was played with fourth and fifth choice loosehead props and a flanker at No.8. We were clearly missing a lot of good players and yet (admittedly with home advantage played in the rain) only lost by a point. They were 15-0 up at one point. Add to that a marginal (but correct) offside call for a chargedown and they would have won. The point is, they made it difficult for NZ and really put the pressure on.

England will be up for this, have no doubts. Will they win? They might. And as an England fan supporting his team against the best in the world? That will do for me. If everyone is playing at the top of their game, then we have a good chance of making the final. The All Blacks are not Gods. They are men, albeit bl**dy good rugby players. If the Aussies (who most have ripped apart on these boards) can beat them, then so can we.

A lot of thats true but as showed with Ireland, last year was irrelevant. I wouldnt make the mistake of think a near win last year (we should have lost) has anything to do with this. WCup is absolute priority, AI's, especially last years, were exploratory, the last chance to get a look at the two main northern sides at the time.

You make the point about being bl##dy good rugby players. Thats all it is. Hansens selected our best, and has created an environment in which they can perform, which has included a huge amount of variation to break down defensive rushes, something that wrecked Irelands chances of holding them.

Look at the second Smith try, where Reece ghosts along behind the backline waiting for the opportunity from Goodhue, suddenly he's in huge space to effect the try further down.

NZ's only chance is now to create many opportunities like that. Predictable, but very hard to stop. I think Hansen has banked on others taking the cautious risk averse route, and I think that showed in the second lot of quarter finals. Not a lot of creativity.

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Post by MightyQuin on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 9:41 pm

The games last year are certainly irrelevant but you’d say the writing was on the wall for Ireland, given their more recent results.

I’d say both NZ and Eng have improved since the Autumn game last year and both will be fielding stronger teams. Scoreline will be similar in my opinion, just haven’t figured which way round it’ll be.

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