Refreshed side

First topic message reminder :

So a few comments I've lifted from the guardian from Eddie Jones. Pretty much as you'd expect in terms of looking ahead to the next challenge.
“I tell you what happens to teams – they evolve,” Jones said. “Some guys will lose desire, some guys will lose fitness, some guys will get injuries and there’ll be young guys come through. So this team is finished now. There will be a new team made. We’ll make a new team for the Six Nations and that new team for the Six Nations will be the basis of going to the next World Cup.'

Apparently the team at the weekend is the youngest to appear in a WC final so there won't be 15 new guys coming in but clearly a few are coming to the end. Are there particular areas or players jones will be looking at?

For me this bunch stand a decent chance in and around the squad to get more caps soon. Genge, Painter, Willis, Dombrandt, Smith, spencer, Robson and a outside chance of Mullins at full back.

Guys that are all young enough to be around for years to come but all with great potential. Perhaps not as good/proven as some who will step back but hugely talented.

LondonTiger wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:That is a position of strength for Saints, with both Furbank and Tuala, I have always thought that 12 was his natural position where he can play the big bruising lump who should make ground, but also as a second playmeker aks Farrell on steroids (hope not really). With his size, height and natural ability  he has everything you need in a 12 and a whopping great big boot as well.

The flaws that mean he is not a 10 are still present at 12. Not as debilitating but for me still an issue. His decision making is iffy, especially when hurried. This happens because he is fairly slow in thought and the big body slow to start moving.

I guess he's a bit like James Hook. Almost good enough to be first choice in any position in the backline. Not good enough to nail down any of them though. He is still young.

Only seen the limited highlights which showed good attacking lines and stepping but the write ups and tops of the hat that malins received is promising.

Malins looks a hell of a prospect. Where will he settle though...10 or 15.

Tom Homer. could he be a future England full back? as he ever been in the Full England squad? From what i seen of him at the week end, woulds be better than Daily.

majesticimperialman wrote:Tom Homer. could he be a future England full back? as he ever been in the Full England squad? From what i seen of him at the week end, woulds be better than Daily.

Homer reminds me a little of Halfpenny, in that he is a no thrills (with the very occasional eye catching burst) kicking fullback. I think he could definitely do a job for England, but you feel that we need more than he has to offer at international level. If he is the future, it will have to be very soon because is already 29.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Malins looks a hell of a prospect. Where will he settle though...10 or 15.

I suspect that like Alex Goode Sarries had originally seen him as a long term 10, but will actually be at 15. With Williams back to Wales, and Goode possibly off to France should Malins stay he could play a lot at 15 in coming seasons.

Tho k Homer's age makes it pretty clear he wont get a call. Jones has made short term picks in the past, like Heinz, but that was on the eve of a world cup.
Almost exclusively his new caps have been players around the start of their careers who have the potential to be better than the current number one. The older players bought in have been ones already capped and maybe just missing out on injury ( tuillagi the most obvious example).
Given this is the start of a world cup cycle it would be really odd to see a 29 year old capped unless theres an injury crisis on the level wales are facing with their centres. Even then I'd see it more likely someone like Goode or Brown would come in to "do a job".

Could see Watson or Nowell given the 15shirt, and Daly/Dally/Daley/Daily appear 11,13,14,23 or step of shame. Would hope to see a player in his early 20s in the training squad though.

Theres a few promising youngsters coming through, but i guess its all about how they develop in the seniors and if they are lucky with injuries etc.

Who is currently injured that might be in the 6Ns squad?

I can think of Cokanasiga & Slade but not sure there are too many others. Brown and Shields are currently injured but probably no longer contenders. Cannot recall seeing Francis recently but again perhaps no longer a contender.

Pretty sure Francis was a replacement for Saints last weekend. However, will he be used? Nick Tompkins at Sarries looks a much better bet.

Ben Earl is another youngster that's probably worth taking a look at - he's also been on fire this season.

Think Earl will get called up, doubt Mercer will get a look in. Sam Simmonds has been tearing it up as well.
I would love to see a Curry, Underhill, Earl backrow against Scotland

Zach Mercer would have stood a very good chance before injury. Hughes has looked in better form for Bristol but I think Mercer is the second best 8 England have available.

Lozowski is fit I believe but seems to be on the naughty step for Sarries. Tompkins is in such good form I hope he is in the 6 Nations squad but with Slade injured both could have stood a chance.

Slade has no luck with injuries

Really doesn't. Has been involved in two world cups but it feels like he's hardly featured, barring that six nations.
I would honestly like to see a lot of key players rested. Lets build depth again, and have a young established core of players going into the next world cup.

England were the youngest side to ever make an RWC final. There is no need to do a big rebuilding exercise. With senior players being rested from the summer tour to Japan I would much rather we actually tried to win the 6Ns.

Options (accepting not all are fit)

LH - Marler, Mako, Genge, Obano, Hepburn, (Moon)
Hooker - George, LCD, Singleton, Dunn, Thacker
TH - Sinckler, Williams, (Cole)
Locks - Itoje, Kruis, Lawes, Launchbury, Ewels, Isiekwe, Hill
Flankers- T Curry, Underhill, Ludlum, Willis, Hill, B Curry (Wilson & Shields)
No 8 - Billy, Simmonds, Hughes, Dombrandt, Mercer

SH - (Youngs), Spencer, Robson
FH - Farrell, Ford, Smith, Simmonds
Centres - Manu, Slade, Joseph, (Marchant), Tompkins, Devoto
Wings - May, Watson, Nowell, Cokanasiga, Thorley
FB -
Utility - Daly

I know I have deliberately missed out some players too old, and some very inexperienced plus bound to have forgotten some.

However it seems clear that we have to be looking at TH prop, Scrum Half, Inside Centre and Full Back.

Positions we have been worried about for the last 2 years at least.

Will Stuart might be worth having a look at in the 3 shirt (or 18, more likely), and Ehren Painter is a prospect. I personally would rate Moon ahead of Hepburn. Is Harry Randall considered to be too small? He's playing well for Bristol right now. I am no Sarries fan, but Tompkins has to be right up there with centre considerations, especially with Marchant overseas and Slade injured (again).

Of all the positions we are well covered for, we're certainly not short of decent flankers, 8s and locks. We also seem to be well covered for losseheads, hookers, wings and (primarily outside) centres.

I'd like to see Malins looked at for the 15 shirt - I remember him from his U20 days and he's been very impressive for Saracens this season.

As for those which we'll see less of, I expect Cole to carry on as long as he's needed, but also reckon he'll be outshone by a youngster sooner rather than later. Ashton, Brown, Robshaw and Care won't be in an England shirt again, nor will Don Armand. Ben Youngs will carry on until he's broken, but as for Marler, well, he's an enigma - expect him for the 6 nations but to be given the summer off for the tour. Shields I am not sure about - he's not old, so if on form expect him to be around the fringes. However, the back row places are well-catered for, so it will be difficult...

Tompkins may well be the best all round option at 12. Big difference between him and many other centre options is that he's excellent at inside and outside centre. He doesn't have the distribution of Slade, pace of Joseph or power of Manu but he's a very rounded player.

9.Youngs 10.Farrell 11.May 12.Tompkins 13.Tuilagi 14.Watson 15.Nowell

21.Spencer 22.Ford 23.Daly

That would cover most the basis you want from a back line. Tompkins is very good in defence as well. Manu is a better defender in the 13 channel and Farrell's missed tackle stats at centre are well known.

I don’t know, I worry England don’t score enough tries against good defences with Farrell at 10. Ford seems to be able to unlock teams in a manner that Farrell does not seem capable of. That isn’t to say Ford is perfect, he has flaws, but England seem much more dangerous with him at 10.

king_carlos wrote:Tompkins may well be the best all round option at 12. Big difference between him and many other centre options is that he's excellent at inside and outside centre. He doesn't have the distribution of Slade, pace of Joseph or power of Manu but he's a very rounded player.

9.Youngs 10.Farrell 11.May 12.Tompkins 13.Tuilagi 14.Watson 15.Nowell

21.Spencer 22.Ford 23.Daly

That would cover most the basis you want from a back line. Tompkins is very good in defence as well. Manu is a better defender in the 13 channel and Farrell's missed tackle stats at centre are well known.

Jones likes two playmakers and with Farrell you really need an alternative (hence Goode or Mallins at 15 or Lozowski at 13 for Sarries).

One name that seems always overlooked I think completely unfairly is Sam James. Big, physical, good defender, quick enough, great offloading game and has played 10/12/13/15 for Sale in big games. No brainer for him to be given a go at 12 in my eyes or as an alternative to Manu.

I really rate Sam James, but Eddie seems not too.

He always looks good. Slade s injury open up an opportunity. Thought that it may be Tompkins chance with marchant unavailable but he looks to be slipping behind the other saracens centres. God knows how.

LondonTiger wrote:I really rate Sam James, but Eddie seems not too.

Eddie has changed his mind on players before. Would be quite the turnaround though given James has been in good form for years and is clearly a leader in that Sale side as well. I suspect he's another Sale player the IRFU were hoping to find having Irish heritage they could exploit.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:I really rate Sam James, but Eddie seems not too.

Eddie has changed his mind on players before. Would be quite the turnaround though given James has been in good form for years and is clearly a leader in that Sale side as well. I suspect he's another Sale player the IRFU were hoping to find having Irish heritage they could exploit.

Wonder if there is a Welsh granny hiding in the closet.

As to Tompkins, 7.5, it is a shame that come Sarries biggest game of the season so far that he slides out of the XV. Same for Ben Earl.

Both are on the bench. Looks like Sarries are keeping their options open on the bench. Earl, Thompkins and Lozowski can all be introduced to add more firepower if Sarries need points. Wigglesworth and Kruis are there if they are in front and want to just tighten things up and see the game out.

Thompkins unlucky that Sarries are always likely to plump for the physicality and leadership of Brad Barritt in these type of games. Be interesting to see if he either retires or takes a back seat at the end of the season. He'll be 34 come the start of next season and Sarries can't risk losing the natural replacement because he isn't getting the chances, they'd certainly be a line of clubs if Thompkins were to think about leaving.

It is a 'worry' that I haven't really seen any young scrumhalfs sticking their hands up to push or even replace Ben Youngs so far this season. It seems to be the usual players who Eddie clearly doesn't fancy who are next in line - Spencer and Robson. Heinz played well on his return at the weekend and would probably be my choice as starter for the 6 Nations if he keeps up that form, although at 33 he isn't one for the future.

nlpnlp wrote:It is a 'worry' that I haven't really seen any young scrumhalfs sticking their hands up to push or even replace Ben Youngs so far this season.  It seems to be the usual players who Eddie clearly doesn't fancy who are next in line - Spencer and Robson.  Heinz played well on his return at the weekend and would probably be my choice as starter for the 6 Nations if he keeps up that form, although at 33 he isn't one for the future.

So who is there at 9, outside of those mentioned above?

Jack Maunder at Chiefs, Harry Randall at Bristol... anyone else merit a mention?

Alex Mitchell at Saints looked good vs Barbarians in the one chance has has had to show what he can do. Should be back from injury in the next week or so may get a chance to remind EJ what he is like before the 6N

I'd prefer Andy Uren to Randall. He generally starts for Bristol and seems to have a decent all round game. Still young and is Bristol born and raised I think. Like Mitchell and Maunder he isn't close to being up there with Robson, Simpson and Spencer. Heinz really should be yesterday's man. Youngs is frustrating in that he always plays better for England than he does for Tigers and his form is middling for Tigers so will probably be exceptional for England.

There's a few young scrum halfs but it feels like they are a season or two away from really stepping up. Mitchell at Saints, Whitely at Sarries, White at Tigers, Maunder at Chiefs and though nothing seems to have happened yet I thought Rory Brand at LI might have been one to watch.

I don't think England need to worry about succession planning really, Robson and Spencer are in their mid 20s and Youngs is only 30.

Tighthead is a more pressing concern. Harry Williams hasn't quite become the monster his frame suggested he would. Sinckler seems to pick up injuries and got absolutely mullered by Genge at the scrum at the weekend, had he not got injured he might have been sin binned for repeated infringements. Painter seems to be coming through quite well but he is very young and still a rough diamond, possibly a season too early for him. Hill has virtually disappeared from view and needs to move on to get game time. Cole is as reliable and as limited as ever. His form is good, Marler got taken to the cleaners in the scrum with Sinckler reminding those that wrote Dan off previously he's still one of the best scrummagers going (no shame in struggling Vs the Beast). Who else is there? Plus side Cole might become an international centurion which he would deserve.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I'd prefer Andy Uren to Randall. He generally starts for Bristol and seems to have a decent all round game. Still young and is Bristol born and raised I think. Like Mitchell and Maunder he isn't close to being up there with Robson, Simpson and Spencer. Heinz really should be yesterday's man. Youngs is frustrating in that he always plays better for England than he does for Tigers and his form is middling for Tigers so will probably be exceptional for England.

There's a few young scrum halfs but it feels like they are a season or two away from really stepping up. Mitchell at Saints, Whitely at Sarries, White at Tigers, Maunder at Chiefs and though nothing seems to have happened yet I thought Rory Brand at LI might have been one to watch.

I don't think England need to worry about succession planning really, Robson and Spencer are in their mid 20s and Youngs is only 30.

Tighthead is a more pressing concern. Harry Williams hasn't quite become the monster his frame suggested he would. Sinckler seems to pick up injuries and got absolutely mullered by Genge at the scrum at the weekend, had he not got injured he might have been sin binned for repeated infringements. Painter seems to be coming through quite well but he is very young and still a rough diamond, possibly a season too early for him. Hill has virtually disappeared from view and needs to move on to get game time. Cole is as reliable and as limited as ever. His form is good, Marler got taken to the cleaners in the scrum with Sinckler reminding those that wrote Dan off previously he's still one of the best scrummagers going (no shame in struggling Vs the Beast). Who else is there? Plus side Cole might become an international centurion which he would deserve.

I think I will be very frustrated if Heinz is still in the squad, it doesn't address any of the longer term issues. I guess the problem with the back up scrumhalves is that nobody is demanding inclusion and after (basically) a decade of the same 2-3 players dominating the position England are in somewhat uncharted territory. It is such a key position on the field. You can see the difference when Youngs is focused and on form, England look a different animal. I've said it before, but I would sacrifice more mercurial play for consistently quick and accurate service. Players like Robson and Simpsons seem to offer the same issues that Youngs and Care have. Although I have had limited viewing of the younger scrumhalves, they all seem to have trouble 'controlling' the game.

Personally I'd like us to target this 6Ns and look to GS the thing. Pick ourselves back up from the L and show we're still a force, and it'll show we're still improving, there's faith in the team and no one's panicking.

To that end I'd keep changes to a minimum, obviously we'll have injuries. But after that I'd only look at dropping Youngs and Cole from the team to being squad players, and beyond that Heinz, Wilson and the Wasps 6 out altogether (forget his name unfortunately).

England have been good.
Wales have been good.
But SA upped the game by just being ultra efficient in the meaty sections of a game.

The problem most 6N sides have had and will still have with England is their version of meat.  It proved a lesser version than the version SA produced but still.... will the others have the personnel to withstand and/or hold off the dynamic physicality that England can bring?  Will England players who bring that aspect be still in WC 'peak' readiness for the 6N?  Will the mental edge have come off and make the fast-heavyweight game they play less formidable?
Wales, Italy and Ireland  .... ( and France?) with new head coaches so some guess work for Eddie Jones to do on what threats those sides might pose.  Everyone will largely know how England want to play it.

So enough question marks in existence to keep things very interesting in the run in.

yappysnap wrote:Personally  I'd like us to target this 6Ns and look to GS the thing. Pick ourselves back up from the L and show we're still a force, and it'll show we're still improving, there's faith in the team and no one's panicking.

To that end I'd keep changes to a minimum, obviously we'll have injuries. But after that I'd only look at dropping Youngs and Cole from the team to being squad players, and beyond that Heinz, Wilson and the Wasps 6 out altogether (forget his name unfortunately).

Shields

Not sure if we should drop Wilson too quickly. I know he's going to be squad filler material but he's a good guy to have around in bad weather in February.

Fine with losing Cole (sad though it is). The eternal problem is Youngs. Who replaces him?

LondonTiger wrote:England were the youngest side to ever make an RWC final. There is no need to do a big rebuilding exercise. With senior players being rested from the summer tour to Japan I would much rather we actually tried to win the 6Ns.

Spot on LT.

Keep the core...add a few to the positions we're struggling with and really go all out to win the Grand Slam this 6n.

Tompkins has been playing well...Devoto has been developing nicely with Exeter aswell.
Big powerful carrier now.

We've discussed Sam James many times on this site...still dont get what the coaches are not seeing in him. Must be somethng because everyone i talk to about him seems to reate him highly.

It's a stretch to suggest marler and sinckler are anything other than top class in the scrum. The rest of harlequins front 5 is generally pants though.
As for a replacement for youngs: anyone would have been better than him in the wc as heinz showed.

I don't think sheer physicality is enough for England, we could never be as consistently brutal as the Springboks.  If we try to play like that, we end up looking like the diet/budget version.  Plus with the nature of the Six Nations (the heritage/ emotion involved) you are always likely to encounter (but especially England IMO) a team who is going to have that one off insanely committed game.  It is why I sometimes worry about Farrell at ten.  If we can't beat a team into submission, he doesn't seem to be able to change things.  

I agree that there will be relatively few changes, but I am unsure the situation with the EPS anyway.  Does Eddie get free pick again?  Or does he have to abide by the player he picked for the World Cup?  I have been trying to find out if/when the new squad will be named, but I cannot find anything.

I do think we may have seen the last of Shields, he will do well to get his place back off young Willis who has looked superb.  The competition in the back-row in general is going to be huge. I'm a massive fan of Wilson but I do wonder if he gets back in.  He is in his 30s now and he won't displace any of the incumbents (Underhill, Curry or Vunipola, so you are left asking if his current form vs. his nearest competitors brings him in for a bench/squad spot and right now he has barely played (at all?) since the World Cup.  There are so many youngsters like Earls, Dombrandt, Willis, Simmonds, Ludlam and Mercer (when fit) demanding selection, Wilson could end up being the forgotten man.

Does anyone know when Eddie is likely to select his new larger EPS, or the 6N squad?
The Welsh and Irish have already announced their training camps I think.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Tompkins has been playing well...Devoto has been developing nicely with Exeter aswell.
Big powerful carrier now.

We've discussed Sam James many times on this site...still dont get what the coaches are not seeing in him. Must be somethng because everyone i talk to about him seems to reate him highly.

Fraser Dingwall is another to keep an eye on at the moment.

propdavid_london wrote:Does anyone know when Eddie is likely to select his new larger EPS, or the 6N squad?  
The Welsh and Irish have already announced their training camps I think.

Sorry Cumbrian - saw you were asking the same!

Wilson may well be the man to miss out! Has he even played for Sale yet? Injured, or just not getting picked in front of the Curry boys and Ross? I don't recall seeing him on any of the team sheets.

propdavid_london wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:Does anyone know when Eddie is likely to select his new larger EPS, or the 6N squad?  
The Welsh and Irish have already announced their training camps I think.

Sorry Cumbrian - saw you were asking the same!

Great minds!

propdavid_london wrote:Wilson may well be the man to miss out!  Has he even played for Sale yet?  Injured, or just not getting picked in front of the Curry boys and Ross? I don't recall seeing him on any of the team sheets.  

Hes been injured.

How big is Ben Earl? He looks around 6'1 / 6'2 and about 16 and a half stone?

So no different to Sam Simmonds really...and he seems to be deemd too small to play at 8 for England.

So to me it looks like a crazy number of options for 2 flanker places....and a few 8's battling it out for that 8 spot.

Earl seems to be around 6ft 2in & 16st 0lb, whilst Simmonds is around 6ft and 16st 2lb, so on the surface similar sizes. I will however say that those stats seem to exaggerate Simmonds size. Having seen them both play, I think Earls looks a fair bit bigger. However, it is worth remembering that Earl is only 21 and will likely naturally put on more muscle over the next 18 month/ 2 years and could end up around the 17 stone mark.

I think Vunipola, Dombrandt, Earls and Simmonds seems fairly healthy competition.  Throw in a resurgent Nathan Hughes and a fit again Mercer and things look better still.

Ben Curry has kicked on this season. After a full pre-season he has been in fantastic form for Sale. Similar to Tom he is offering more in the carry now which makes him a blindside option. As well as being strong in the tackle and over the ball.

Ted Hill is the other option at blindside if Jones wants a more physical pack. He is brutal in contact although he doesn't offer the same at the breakdown as the Curry boys or Wilson.

COuld we see a Curry 6 & 7 at some point...?

Surely with all the options coming through now...we can really produce a world class back row...for years to come.

You would hope so, I guess problems will come if Eddie (or his eventual replacement) chops and changes. With a lot of options there will always be the temptation to chop and change. What you want the manger to do is find the correct balance and stick with as much as possible.

For instance the Curry twins and Vunipola wouldn't work together in my opinion because I think England would lose too much in the line-out.

For what it is worth, I see a back-row of Jack Willis, Tom Curry and Alex Dombrandt as being a superb back-row going forward longer term.