Refreshed side

by No 7&1/2 Mon 04 Nov 2019, 8:17 am

First topic message reminder :

So a few comments I've lifted from the guardian from Eddie Jones. Pretty much as you'd expect in terms of looking ahead to the next challenge.
“I tell you what happens to teams – they evolve,” Jones said. “Some guys will lose desire, some guys will lose fitness, some guys will get injuries and there’ll be young guys come through. So this team is finished now. There will be a new team made. We’ll make a new team for the Six Nations and that new team for the Six Nations will be the basis of going to the next World Cup.'

Apparently the team at the weekend is the youngest to appear in a WC final so there won't be 15 new guys coming in but clearly a few are coming to the end. Are there particular areas or players jones will be looking at?

For me this bunch stand a decent chance in and around the squad to get more caps soon. Genge, Painter, Willis, Dombrandt, Smith, spencer, Robson and a outside chance of Mullins at full back.

Guys that are all young enough to be around for years to come but all with great potential. Perhaps not as good/proven as some who will step back but hugely talented.

by king_carlos Tue 21 Jan 2020, 5:53 pm

I've been wanting Hill around the squads since first seeing him against Tigers when coming into senior rugby. He was a bull at age grade but sometimes players need time to acclimatise. Hill really didn't.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-bjZBSCrrw

The first try there against Tigers sums it up. He's just brutal ball in hand. We have Billy at 8 who can offer that but haven't had that style of flanker for a long time.

Combine Hill and Mercer with Curry, Underhill, Ludlam and Earl. Plus Billy hopefully staying fit and fulfilling his massive potential. It's really promising.

I especially like that there are differing skill sets amongst those players.

by Mr Bounce Tue 21 Jan 2020, 8:42 pm

I think it's interesting to see that England have for years struggled to get a decent 7, usually playing 6s "out of position", and the only real capped 7s we've had since Neil Back have been Tom "Injured" Rees, and the almost never selected Andy Hazell, Alex Sanderson and Michael Lipman. I guess another potential was Magnus Lund but he only grabbed a handful of caps. Since 2003 we've otherwise (amongst others) used Moody, Worsley, Robshaw, Haskell and Wood at 7. Now we have several more traditional 7s - Curry, Underhill, Ludlam and Earl all feature in the 6 Nations squad and there's lots waiting in the wings including Curry's twin brother Ben.

I wonder how much of this is down to Eddie himself and the Australian way of playing? The RWC final in 2003 had Waugh and Smith both starting, yet they were as "7" as one could get. It's nice to have an embarrassment of riches there. Wales have been very lucky in that department too with Warburton and Tipuric standing out but also Ellis Jenkins and James Davies come to mind.

by Cumbrian Wed 22 Jan 2020, 8:56 am

Mr Bounce wrote:I think it's interesting to see that England have for years struggled to get a decent 7, usually playing 6s "out of position", and the only real capped 7s we've had since Neil Back have been Tom "Injured" Rees, and the almost never selected Andy Hazell, Alex Sanderson and Michael Lipman. I guess another potential was Magnus Lund but he only grabbed a handful of caps. Since 2003 we've otherwise (amongst others) used Moody, Worsley, Robshaw, Haskell and Wood at 7. Now we have several more traditional 7s - Curry, Underhill, Ludlam and Earl all feature in the 6 Nations squad and there's lots waiting in the wings including Curry's twin brother Ben.

I wonder how much of this is down to Eddie himself and the Australian way of playing? The RWC final in 2003 had Waugh and Smith both starting, yet they were as "7" as one could get. It's nice to have an embarrassment of riches there. Wales have been very lucky in that department too with Warburton and Tipuric standing out but also Ellis Jenkins and James Davies come to mind.

I'm not sure it is down to Eddie. He has been too short term form to be the solution, I think it is down to luck really. I just don't think the potential number sevens were good/ consistent or fit enough when the likes of Moody, Worsley and Robshaw were around. The game plan probably came into it, but I think it was more that we didn't have the beef available.

I has seemed like feast of famine with England for the last 10-15 years when it comes to certain positions.

by hugehandoff Wed 22 Jan 2020, 9:26 am

SCW wrote in his Daily Mail article, which i totally agree, that Eddie appears to have not learnt some key lessons from the RWC. And that is the imbalance in the squad. Too many locks and not enough 9s or 8s. In the RWC we all know that Jack Nowell, Rory McConnachie and Joe Cokanasiga were in essence luxury picks. He should have replaced 2 of them with another tighthead (a good scrummager) and 9. Come the RWC final and we were exposed. Ben Youngs was not having a great game and needed taking off earlier in the match, but the replacement had only arrived in Tokyo a few days before. Now we needlessly are in the same boat. If a 9 or 8 (whoever that is in Billy's absence) withdraws at the last minute then we are in an unnecessarily difficult position. We don't need 6 locks. We don't need apprentices.

Otherwise happy to see some new faces, but just frustrated that we have left ourselves open.

by lostinwales Wed 22 Jan 2020, 10:05 am

hugehandoff wrote:SCW wrote in his Daily Mail article, which i totally agree, that Eddie appears to have not learnt some key lessons from the RWC. And that is the imbalance in the squad. Too many locks and not enough 9s or 8s. In the RWC we all know that Jack Nowell, Rory McConnachie and Joe Cokanasiga were in essence luxury picks. He should have replaced 2 of them with another tighthead (a good scrummager) and 9. Come the RWC final and we were exposed. Ben Youngs was not having a great game and needed taking off earlier in the match, but the replacement had only arrived in Tokyo a few days before. Now we needlessly are in the same boat. If a 9 or 8 (whoever that is in Billy's absence) withdraws at the last minute then we are in an unnecessarily difficult position. We don't need 6 locks. We don't need apprentices.

Otherwise happy to see some new faces, but just frustrated that we have left ourselves open.

There are particular issues with an RWC a long way from home that just don't apply for a 6N. The selection of McConnachie in particular was very much to fill a role- that of spare part who could otherwise add a distraction to the media, something to training and would not be a disruptive influence when sitting on their backside for most of the tournament. I do buy into Eddie's statement being that the extra players are very important picks.

Its also worth reminding ourselves that England almost went all the way, destroying NZ in the process only to come unstuck against a SA team whose previous performances had not come close to the superb effort they produced in the final.

by Geordie Wed 22 Jan 2020, 10:30 am

Ultimately one of the biggest jobs for Eddie with regards to the back row is picking players and sticking with them.

Some VERY good players are not going to be picked
All of these will not fit in to a squad.

Billy V
T Curry
B Curry
Dombrandt
Mercer
Underhill
Earl
Ludlum
Willis
T. Hill
M. Wilson (I suspect he'll be one for the first to go so can we have him back please)

by **Rugby Fan** Wed 22 Jan 2020, 10:37 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ultimately one of the biggest jobs for Eddie with regards to the back row is picking players and sticking with them.

Some VERY good players are not going to be picked
All of these will not fit in to a squad.

Billy V
T Curry
B Curry
Dombrandt
Mercer
Underhill
Earl
Ludlum
Willis
T. Hill
M. Wilson (I suspect he'll be one for the first to go so can we have him back please)

A fit James Chisholm is also a handy player. He was World Rugby Junior Player of the Year in 2015. Josh Beaumont was on the radar for Jones early on but he's been dogged with injuries too.

by bluestonevedder Wed 22 Jan 2020, 10:41 am

Anyone else concerned that following his England snub, we could lose Dombrandt to Wales, a la Tompkins?

by Soul Requiem Wed 22 Jan 2020, 10:44 am

bluestonevedder wrote:Anyone else concerned that following his England snub, we could lose Dombrandt to Wales, a la Tompkins?

He doesn't qualify for Wales does he?

by No 7&1/2 Wed 22 Jan 2020, 10:45 am

Hed need to move to wales and qualify for them so it would give the rfu enough notice to change their minds.

by bluestonevedder Wed 22 Jan 2020, 10:54 am

I thought he had played for Wales U20s? And didn't he meet the residency requirements during his time at Cardiff Met?

by No 7&1/2 Wed 22 Jan 2020, 10:57 am

He did play for wales u 20s but wouldn't have met the requirements for the full side at that time. He now lives in england so would have to re qualify through residency. From memory uni diesnt count towards residency either.

by Soul Requiem Wed 22 Jan 2020, 10:58 am

bluestonevedder wrote:I thought he had played for Wales U20s? And didn't he meet the residency requirements during his time at Cardiff Met?

You only have to live in the country to qualify for the U20's.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:00 am

bluestonevedder wrote:I thought he had played for Wales U20s? And didn't he meet the residency requirements during his time at Cardiff Met?

He did play for Wales U20s while at university, however to be eligible he would need to have lived in Wales for 36 consecutive months immediately before being capped (or have 10 years of accumulated residency). Assuming his course started in September and finished in June then being a 3 year course it would have fallen short of 36 months, so he was never eligible. Moving back to England terminated the consecutive months.

by Gooseberry Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:06 am

We dont need apprentices is a bit unfair, those players arent taking up senior spots and Id absolutely argue that the long term is absolutely as important as the short. Marler started off as an apprentice for one. Calling a player like Nowell as a luxury pick is really stretching it, one of the 3 could be called such but they wouldve been very short of outside backs without 2 of them given Jones wanted to keep Farrell starting 10 as an option.

I do think its reasonable top question the inclusion of Umaga in the senior squad, and not a scrum half who is at a similar level of development. Its essentially tied einz/Youngs and Ford Farrell as being in the 23 for the 6 nations, and left no options who can cover 10 and 9 from the bench should one get injured without calling a player in cold. Umaga has ridiculously little senior rugby under his belt and isnt even a first choice at a mediocre club. Hes not physically mature in the way Manu Tuilagi was when he burst onto the scene, and for all his skills cant possibly have the gamecraft and tactical nous required for test rugby. If you could justify leaving Cipriani out of the squads so often then surely the same applies to picking Umaga who doubles down on some of the reasons for that.
I like that hes in there for the longer term, but at the expense of a possible 9 or 10 who actually could come in a do a job this 6 nations and be realistic first choice for the summer tour its seems bonkers. Doubly so with scrum half where there absolutely has to be another found in the next couple of years to be a regular in the 23 as Heinz reaches retirement age.

Im less bought into the Ben Youngs lost us the world cup and that we left 25 amazing scrummagers at home narrative.

Its also worth noting that some of the current picks for the pack and outside backs are based on injuries. Many are pointing to the lack of a specialist 8, but it could be because the first 3 choice are all out injured. Does Jones see a point spending time on a 4th choice specialist or more interested in seeing what utility flankers can do there given you'd probably 8 covered by one form the bench in a first choice 23. The general theory regarding 6 locks is that one or more have been picked as a 6. Its still a bit odd, but a few weeks back someone posted up about the lack of good options coming through with some of the main ones ageing out in the coming years.

Another thing this throws up is Jones doing away with the Saxons and choosing to focus on a smaller group of senior players.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:17 am

The other cynical view is to try and tie some of the uncapped players to england for where they do have relatives.

by Gooseberry Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:21 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:The other cynical view is to try and tie some of the uncapped players to england for where they do have relatives.

True, but they arent tied if they dont get capped, and again....Saxons.

by BamBam Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:24 am

Saxons need another A side to be willing to play them. There could be an argument that the Celtic unions are much less minded to play A team fixtures against the Saxons knowing that it would tie players with potential Celtic eligibility to England

Probably need my tinfoil hat, but its a possibility!

by No 7&1/2 Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:27 am

But have them in the squad and throw them in for a couple of mins against italy. Job done.i really hope theres someone in the RFU taking that view and having a word with jones. Given the other unions refused to review compensation england need to ensure that others dont take advantage.

by Geordie Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:41 am

Anyone wonder why Dombrandt hasnt been included?

Is it his defensive pace?
His workrate etc?

by BamBam Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:41 am

Yep, clear the bench against Italy, and with the RWC squad being given the summer off, anyone we might want in future who has any kind of Celtic eligibility needs to play against Japan

by No 7&1/2 Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:46 am

I keep forgetting the summer tour will be a host of newbies. That's a chance to tie a load.

by Geordie Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:54 am

The summer tour will effectively be a Saxons tour i would have thought.

by bluestonevedder Wed 22 Jan 2020, 12:11 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
bluestonevedder wrote:I thought he had played for Wales U20s? And didn't he meet the residency requirements during his time at Cardiff Met?

He did play for Wales U20s while at university, however to be eligible he would need to have lived in Wales for 36 consecutive months immediately before being capped (or have 10 years of accumulated residency). Assuming his course started in September and finished in June then being a 3 year course it would have fallen short of 36 months, so he was never eligible. Moving back to England terminated the consecutive months.

Ah, I see. That puts me at ease then.

by lostinwales Wed 22 Jan 2020, 12:17 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:But have them in the squad and throw them in for a couple of mins against italy. Job done.i really hope theres someone in the RFU taking that view and having a word with jones. Given the other unions refused to review compensation england need to ensure that others dont take advantage.

You cannot do that unless you are prepared for those players to play 79mins and 59 seconds following the first choice player tripping over and going off injured at kick off.

If I was a player close to the 1st team but who qualified to play for others I'd be very wary about accepting a cap in those circumstances.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 22 Jan 2020, 12:40 pm

And against italy youd get away with that.

by BamBam Wed 22 Jan 2020, 12:44 pm

lostinwales wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:But have them in the squad and throw them in for a couple of mins against italy. Job done.i really hope theres someone in the RFU taking that view and having a word with jones. Given the other unions refused to review compensation england need to ensure that others dont take advantage.

You cannot do that unless you are prepared for those players to play 79mins and 59 seconds following the first choice player tripping over and going off injured at kick off.

If I was a player close to the 1st team but who qualified to play for others I'd be very wary about accepting a cap in those circumstances.

If anyone refuses a cap in those circumstances, that player should immediately be considered a non English player and all payments to his club for EQ player requirements should be stopped

Its harsh, but the RFU should set its stall out and make players make the choice. Its then the choice of the clubs how to proceed with future contracts etc. We shouldn't be making payments and helping develop players for other nations

by Gooseberry Wed 22 Jan 2020, 12:47 pm

BamBam wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:But have them in the squad and throw them in for a couple of mins against italy. Job done.i really hope theres someone in the RFU taking that view and having a word with jones. Given the other unions refused to review compensation england need to ensure that others dont take advantage.

You cannot do that unless you are prepared for those players to play 79mins and 59 seconds following the first choice player tripping over and going off injured at kick off.

If I was a player close to the 1st team but who qualified to play for others I'd be very wary about accepting a cap in those circumstances.

If anyone refuses a cap in those circumstances, that player should immediately be considered a non English player and all payments to his club for EQ player requirements should be stopped

Its harsh, but the RFU should set its stall out and make players make the choice. Its then the choice of the clubs how to proceed with future contracts etc

Think the other thing that points to England not seeking to cap for the sake of capping is Dombrants exclusion. Hes been poached from the Welsh age grades, played against the Barbarians and was in the extended world cup squad but still not tied.
If England were looking to nail on these players down he'd surely be up there with Barabbas.

by BamBam Wed 22 Jan 2020, 12:51 pm

According to mikey on the rumours thread, there's talk of him now signing for Cardiff Blues.

As he was only eligible for the Welsh U20s due to being at Cardiff Uni, would he now be required to sit through the 5 years residency period before being eligible for a call up?

edit - looks like mikey was on the wind up Doh

by Soul Requiem Wed 22 Jan 2020, 12:51 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
BamBam wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:But have them in the squad and throw them in for a couple of mins against italy. Job done.i really hope theres someone in the RFU taking that view and having a word with jones. Given the other unions refused to review compensation england need to ensure that others dont take advantage.

You cannot do that unless you are prepared for those players to play 79mins and 59 seconds following the first choice player tripping over and going off injured at kick off.

If I was a player close to the 1st team but who qualified to play for others I'd be very wary about accepting a cap in those circumstances.

If anyone refuses a cap in those circumstances, that player should immediately be considered a non English player and all payments to his club for EQ player requirements should be stopped

Its harsh, but the RFU should set its stall out and make players make the choice. Its then the choice of the clubs how to proceed with future contracts etc

Think the other thing that points to England not seeking to cap for the sake of capping is Dombrants exclusion. Hes been poached from the Welsh age grades, played against the Barbarians and was in the extended world cup squad but still not tied.
If England were looking to nail on these players down he'd surely be up there with Barabbas.

You don't need to nail down a player who is only eligible for one country.

by Geordie Wed 22 Jan 2020, 12:57 pm

SO for France v England next Sunday would you expect this?

1 Marler
2 George
3 Sinkler
4 Itoje
5 Kruis
6 Underhill
7 Curry
8 Earl

9 Youngs
10 Ford
11 May
12 Farrell
13 Manu
14 Watson
15 Daly

16 Genge
17 Dunn / LCD
18 Stuart
19 Lawes
20 Heinz
21 Devoto / Dingwall
22 Joseph
23 Furbank

by mikey_dragon Wed 22 Jan 2020, 12:57 pm

BamBam wrote:According to mikey on the rumours thread, there's talk of him now signing for Cardiff Blues.

As he was only eligible for the Welsh U20s due to being at Cardiff Uni, would he now be required to sit through the 5 years residency period before being eligible for a call up?

edit - looks like mikey was on the wind up

Gotcha!

by Cumbrian Wed 22 Jan 2020, 1:09 pm

Italy match could be grandslam/ championship decider, no way will there be an experimental side if we are still in the hunt.

by king_carlos Wed 22 Jan 2020, 1:37 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:SO for France v England next Sunday would you expect this?

1 Marler
2 George
3 Sinkler
4 Itoje
5 Kruis
6 Underhill
7 Curry
8 Earl

9 Youngs
10 Ford
11 May
12 Farrell
13 Manu
14 Watson
15 Daly

16 Genge
17 Dunn / LCD
18 Stuart
19 Lawes
20 Heinz
21 Devoto / Dingwall
22 Joseph
23 Furbank

I definitely don't see the 4-4 split on the bench, GF. I think the starting backs are correct. Although I'd love Furbank to get 5 starts this tournament.

I reckon Earl will be on the bench against France with Lawes, Underhill and Curry in the back row. I don't like that back row but I could see it being selected as a short term fix, then Earl and Hill getting starts during the tournament.

I also can't see Mako being dropped if he's fit. I hope Marler starts though. He was excellent in the RWC and as France have dropped Slimani their most capped tighthead is Demba Bamba with 7 caps. Hopefully Marler can attack that.

1.Marler 2.George 3.Sinckler 4.Itoje 5.Kruis 6.Lawes 7.Underhill 8.Curry
9.Youngs 10.Ford 11.May 12.Farrell 13.Tuilagi 14.Watson 15.Daly

16.Cowan-Dickie 17.Vunipola 18.Williams 19.Launchbury 20.Earls 21.Heinz 22.Joseph 23.Furbank

by TightHEAD Wed 22 Jan 2020, 1:42 pm

I think all Sarries players should be excluded from the England team until all the salary details are known.

by Soul Requiem Wed 22 Jan 2020, 1:45 pm

TightHEAD wrote:I think all Sarries players should be excluded from the England team until all the salary details are known.

Why?

by TightHEAD Wed 22 Jan 2020, 1:47 pm

Because they knew what was going on.
Their characters are tainted and do not deserve to wear the Red Rose.

That is why.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 22 Jan 2020, 1:50 pm

Just so long as Marler is not required to cover TH, having to do it in the "Big Match" must have been a chastening experience.

by Soul Requiem Wed 22 Jan 2020, 1:51 pm

TightHEAD wrote:Because they knew what was going on.
Their characters are tainted and do not deserve to wear the Red Rose.

That is why.

Ever thought of not being a prat?

by **LondonTiger** Wed 22 Jan 2020, 1:53 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Because they knew what was going on.
Their characters are tainted and do not deserve to wear the Red Rose.

That is why.

Ever thought of not being a prat?

Best to keep your personal opinions of people's character to yourself SR to avoid breaking the rules.

by Soul Requiem Wed 22 Jan 2020, 1:53 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Because they knew what was going on.
Their characters are tainted and do not deserve to wear the Red Rose.

That is why.

Ever thought of not being a prat?

Best to keep your personal opinions of people's character to yourself SR to avoid breaking the rules.

Very true LT.

by TightHEAD Wed 22 Jan 2020, 1:56 pm

They don't deserve to be there, they have earned their reputations by playing in a team that has knowingly cheated. Other players have not had the opportunities these cheats have had because their teams have played by the rules.

Why are people still defending them?

They are not fit to play for England until all details are known.

RFU core values. RESPECT, TEAMWORK,ENJOYMENT, DISCIPLINE, and SPORTSMANSHIP!

How can Sarries players fall under those 5 values?

by Geordie Wed 22 Jan 2020, 1:58 pm

THead, its a professional sport. its no longer the core values in the upper leagues.

Maybe in local club rugby...

by TightHEAD Wed 22 Jan 2020, 1:59 pm

Then its time to change that.

Plenty of other players who abide by the rules.

by Geordie Wed 22 Jan 2020, 2:00 pm

Okey dokey.

by Soul Requiem Wed 22 Jan 2020, 2:00 pm

TightHEAD wrote:They don't deserve to be there, they have earned their reputations by playing in a team that has knowingly cheated. Other players have not had the opportunities these cheats have had because their teams have played by the rules.

Why are people still defending them?

They are not fit to play for England until all details are known.

RFU core values. RESPECT, TEAMWORK,ENJOYMENT, DISCIPLINE, and SPORTSMANSHIP!

How can Sarries players fall under those 5 values?

Right...

I must have missed the bit where companies go about explaining there illegal dealings to their employees.

by TightHEAD Wed 22 Jan 2020, 2:03 pm

Stop defending them.

and you call me a prat!

Lol.

by TightHEAD Wed 22 Jan 2020, 2:06 pm

I'd rather see a team made of deserving players this 6 nations, start of a world cup cycle and its time to blood new players.

by Gooseberry Wed 22 Jan 2020, 2:11 pm

Bath were the other team consistently called out for breaking the cap prior to the last few years Tighthead. Funny how you didn't have a problem with it then.

by king_carlos Wed 22 Jan 2020, 2:12 pm

My favourite cheese is Vacherin. Not the cheapest or easiest to find in the UK but a wonderful body to it and goes so simply with some nice toast and hint of honey.

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