Lions tour 2021

First topic message reminder :

So, the dates are announced for the Lions schedule in 18 months:

Sat July 3rd 2021: Stormers v Lions, Cape Town Stadium, Cape Town
Wed July 7th: South Africa Invitational v Lions, NMB Stadium, Port Elizabeth
Sat July 10th: Sharks v Lions, Jonsson Kings Park, Durban
Wed July 14th: South Africa 'A' v Lions, Mbombela Stadium, Nelspruit
Sat July 17th: Bulls v Lions, Loftus Versfeld, Pretoria
Sat July 24th: T1 Springboks v Lions, FNB National Stadium, Johannesburg
Sat July 31st: T2 Springboks v Lions, Cape Town Stadium, Cape Town
Sat Aug 7th: T3: Springboks v Lions, Emirates Airline Park (Ellis Park), Johannesburg

So, eight matches, three tests - two of which are at altitude. Tough schedule.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

BamBam wrote:Launchbury is unlucky his mum didn't once visit Wales on holiday. He'd have 100 odd caps by now, just too much competition in England

Kruis is a tough one. He is probably the best set piece specialist lock available to the Lions. Great lineout leader and adds to the scrum surprisingly more than any other English lock. One of the major errors of the world cup final was leaving Kruis on the bench. Against the Boks Gatland may be tempted for a refreshed Kruis who would be match fit from the end of the Japan season and could go straight into the friendlies on tour. The set pieces will be a huge part of the battle for the Lions.

It depends on Kruis. He was the best lock forward in the NH going into NZ. First test he was shocking and it’s like that was the last we heard of him for the following season. I still think Itoje is a good option at 6.

Also I know Henderson used to feature at 6 quite often but I’m not sure when he last played there.

Weakens us too much to move itoje to 6. Hes up there with rettalick for the best lock in the world. It's not as if we lack for flankers. Even big flankers who are better than itoje there.

I think Gatland might want to match the Boks and negate PSDT, hence why I think he could opt for someone as good as Itoje at 6.

I think England have gone with Lawes and Itoje at 6 because, until fairly recently, they weren't blessed with great flankers. Think back to 2017, England's flankers of choice prior to the tour were Haskell and Robshaw. Neither of them were near the test team. Robshaw didn't tour at all and Haskell went along primarily for the enthusiasm he brought to off field activities. Jones operate to get the best players onto the pitch. I don't think second-row is a particular position of strength across the four nations, back row most certainly is. I don't think anyone would be particularly concerned if any of Wainwright, Shingler, Navidi, Tipuric, Faletau, Underhill, Curry, Vunipola, Ritchie, Watson, O'Mahony, Stander etc. etc. etc. were to run out for the Lions. Conversely, if you went to that far in terms of depth at second row you may well be looking at Toolis and Toner running out.

And it's been a long while since itoje has lined up at 6 for england. Cant remember the last time. If england have better options at 6 then the lions certainly do.

I suppose much will depend on the conditioning of Kruis. Some players freshen up in Japan, others just get fat.

Even if he's in the best shape of his life, there's little chance of him being ready for a full blooded test series against the World Champions. Saracens last match was the 7th March. The Lions are playing a shorter tour than usual. There's five warm up games. Realistically he'll play a maximum of three. Some England players will be in the Championship but it seems probable they will play for England too. Next season could well include the last Six Nations game, England's summer tour, the November series, the Six Nations. Saracens players will have a leg up from not playing aside from that. I suspect some of the rest of them will be crawling onto the plane exhausted.

Although the pessimist in me says this will all prove academic anyhow.

Ouch. Negative stuff numbers. Worth remembering that the players are in the middle of a pretty decent stretch of time off. I'm in a fairly good place for this Lions tour. Gatland is the right appointment, and I think the WCF has perhaps placed this South Africa side slightly higher in people's estimations than it deserves to be.

3-0 Lions. 1st and 2nd Test will be closely fought Lions wins, with Finn Russell closing out tight games by curbing his attacking instincts and playing the %s beautifully. 3rd Test will be a landslide, with AWJ running one in from the half way line. Hamish Watson MOTM in all three Tests. Farrell retires immediately after the tour, having realised that Finn Russell can do things and reached a level of perfection he can only dream of. Warren Gatland wears a kilt for the 3rd Test as a homage to all the great Scots he has omitted over the years. Keith Wood finally accepts that JD2 was the right call for the clincher against the Aussies. Sir Clive says something that doesn't make Wilkinson cringe in the ITV studio.

All of this will definitely happen.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Ouch. Negative stuff numbers. Worth remembering that the players are in the middle of a pretty decent stretch of time off. I'm in a fairly good place for this Lions tour. Gatland is the right appointment, and I think the WCF has perhaps placed this South Africa side slightly higher in people's estimations than it deserves to be.

3-0 Lions. 1st and 2nd Test will be closely fought Lions wins, with Finn Russell closing out tight games by curbing his attacking instincts and playing the %s beautifully. 3rd Test will be a landslide, with AWJ running one in from the half way line. Hamish Watson MOTM in all three Tests. Farrell retires immediately after the tour, having realised that Finn Russell can do things and reached a level of perfection he can only dream of. Warren Gatland wears a kilt for the 3rd Test as a homage to all the great Scots he has omitted over the years. Keith Wood finally accepts that JD2 was the right call for the clincher against the Aussies. Sir Clive says something that doesn't make Wilkinson cringe in the ITV studio.

All of this will definitely happen.

Take it this includes Chris Harris' transformation into Brian O'Driscoll's more talented older brother?

Edit: who happens to be an appropriate age for test rugby in 2021, Chris Harris has indeed made a career from playing like a 40+ year old member of the O'Driscoll family

I can't believe it didn't occur to me before. Chris Harris is perfect for the Lions. Hardest working rugby player in the universe ever, never gets injured for some reason and he makes everyone around him play/look better (ideal if Gatland shoe horns North into the squad).

You need to make sure you have some players of pure physicality in that Lions set up.

Skill is great and essential but you need some sheer ferocious power agains the Boks.

I agree, the backs are going to need to win a few fairly hefty collisions, although it isn't an area where the Lions have stacks of quality.

Tuilagi, if fit, is a certainty. Gatland will presumably take North regardless of recent form. Stockdale is a big lad and Scotland may well blood Van Der Merwe ahead of the tour, and he's certainly a physical player, but in the centres, once you take out Tuilagi, there isn't a huge amount of muscle. Not sure whether JD2 will be fit, and i can't get excited about Aki or Parkes. We sadly don't have Gibbs or Roberts!

A backline for the lions of Biggar/Anscombe, Parkes, JD2, North would be uninspiring to say the least.

It's going to come down to if Gatland wants to try something new for his NZ job application or if he goes tried and tested with the players he knows.

mikey_dragon wrote:I think Gatland might want to match the Boks and negate PSDT, hence why I think he could opt for someone as good as Itoje at 6.

I think you can negate PSDT with a lightning quick back row myself; Wales would most likely have beaten South Africa were Navidi playing in my opinion so i'd be picking him alongside Curry and preferably Faletau based on fitness. Watson included in the 23 too.

Cokanasiga is an obvious choice of a winger of huge size who uses it well. His injury post world cup is a bit deafening though.

I think the Lions need to make sure they have the units in there to front up to the Boks; Tuilagi, Vunipolas, Faletau, Itoje etc. but it's quite simple as far as I'm concerned if Gatland picks our 15 biggest players in the hope of bullying them off of the park then the Lions will lose. Farrell at 12 makes sense to me, he's not small and he is physical but he's also a very smart rugby player. Russell at 10 provides the sort of guile that offers a different question to anything the English were able to pose in the final. Hogg and Williams in the back three offer a different sort of return from the South African kicking game.

Hogg, May, Williams back three? Offers very differing styles.

Watson is a better winger than both May and Williams and nothing is changing my mind

Let Williams and Hogg fight it out at full back, remember how Kearney and Byrne pushed each other all the way in 2009

Got me thinking who the biggest team we could put out, while keeping their positions.


Vunipola LCD(?) Furlong
Kruis toner
Hill SOB
Vunipola
Murray
Farrell cokanasiga McCloskey tuilagi north Mallider.
Sure I'm missing some obvious ones.

May has been the form winger in the world for a good while now Bam. Watson was better not the case now for me. May barely puts a foot wrong now. (After being outpaced by a scrum half).

As an all rounder I'm taking Watson..but it's close

They should be the starters for me, Daly is probably the perfect 23 so Williams and Hogg are competing for the 15 shirt imo

i appreciate you were looking purely on size 7.5 but i wouldnt want Mako V anywhere near that bok Scrum. Get a proper scrummager in at losehead.

Watson is a class act on the wing...i did actually forget about him.

GeordieFalcon wrote:i appreciate you were looking purely on size 7.5 but i wouldnt want Mako V anywhere near that bok Scrum. Get a proper scrummager in at losehead.

Rory Sutherland is a big unit but he is also a great scrummager. I think its a bit early yet for a lions call up, but he has the attributes required.

This tour could go either way really. I think the Boks (well thier fans) have perhaps over-hyped themselves just a tad, as is thier right to do so as World Champs. But I dont think they are as good as they think they are nor are they as good as the NZ teams that took to the field in 2017.

If Gatland picks a team to try and negate the Bok gameplan then I think the Lions will struggle and the Bok will win the series. If Gatland picks the best team to go out and play thier own style to win rather than trying to make thier opposition lose, then the Lions should have the quality throughout the squad to win.

tigertattie wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:i appreciate you were looking purely on size 7.5 but i wouldnt want Mako V anywhere near that bok Scrum. Get a proper scrummager in at losehead.

Rory Sutherland is a big unit but he is also a great scrummager. I think its a bit early yet for a lions call up, but he has the attributes required.

This tour could go either way really. I think the Boks (well thier fans) have perhaps over-hyped themselves just a tad, as is thier right to do so as World Champs. But I dont think they are as good as they think they are nor are they as good as the NZ teams that took to the field in 2017.

If Gatland picks a team to try and negate the Bok gameplan then I think the Lions will struggle and the Bok will win the series. If Gatland picks the best team to go out and play thier own style to win rather than trying to make thier opposition lose, then the Lions should have the quality throughout the squad to win.

Nah, Bok fans are grateful more than anything, nobody expected us to get close to the final.

Old Man wrote:

tigertattie wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:i appreciate you were looking purely on size 7.5 but i wouldnt want Mako V anywhere near that bok Scrum. Get a proper scrummager in at losehead.

Rory Sutherland is a big unit but he is also a great scrummager. I think its a bit early yet for a lions call up, but he has the attributes required.

This tour could go either way really. I think the Boks (well thier fans) have perhaps over-hyped themselves just a tad, as is thier right to do so as World Champs. But I dont think they are as good as they think they are nor are they as good as the NZ teams that took to the field in 2017.

If Gatland picks a team to try and negate the Bok gameplan then I think the Lions will struggle and the Bok will win the series. If Gatland picks the best team to go out and play thier own style to win rather than trying to make thier opposition lose, then the Lions should have the quality throughout the squad to win.

Nah, Bok fans are grateful more than anything, nobody expected us to get close to the final.

They were second favorites werent they?

I put money on them wining the whole thing. Most people i knew did the same.

Ha. Very much done purely on size GF.

tigertattie wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:i appreciate you were looking purely on size 7.5 but i wouldnt want Mako V anywhere near that bok Scrum. Get a proper scrummager in at losehead.

Rory Sutherland is a big unit but he is also a great scrummager. I think its a bit early yet for a lions call up, but he has the attributes required.

.

Thats actually who i was thinking of TT...looks the right type to take the boks on.

BamBam wrote:Watson is a better winger than both May and Williams and nothing is changing my mind

Let Williams and Hogg fight it out at full back, remember how Kearney and Byrne pushed each other all the way in 2009

Agree 100%. Watson on the right wing is a no brainer for me. I think it's between Hogg, Williams and Larmour for 15, and depending on that, May and Williams for the left wing.

I'm not at all worried about the back three. Lions have loads of great options here.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Old Man wrote:

tigertattie wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:i appreciate you were looking purely on size 7.5 but i wouldnt want Mako V anywhere near that bok Scrum. Get a proper scrummager in at losehead.

Rory Sutherland is a big unit but he is also a great scrummager. I think its a bit early yet for a lions call up, but he has the attributes required.

This tour could go either way really. I think the Boks (well thier fans) have perhaps over-hyped themselves just a tad, as is thier right to do so as World Champs. But I dont think they are as good as they think they are nor are they as good as the NZ teams that took to the field in 2017.

If Gatland picks a team to try and negate the Bok gameplan then I think the Lions will struggle and the Bok will win the series. If Gatland picks the best team to go out and play thier own style to win rather than trying to make thier opposition lose, then the Lions should have the quality throughout the squad to win.

Nah, Bok fans are grateful more than anything, nobody expected us to get close to the final.

They were second favorites werent they?

I put money on them wining the whole thing. Most people i knew did the same.

After our 2016-2017 season very few Springbok supporters had faith, even 2018 when Rassie took over was a 50/50 season.

Old Man wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Old Man wrote:

tigertattie wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:i appreciate you were looking purely on size 7.5 but i wouldnt want Mako V anywhere near that bok Scrum. Get a proper scrummager in at losehead.

Rory Sutherland is a big unit but he is also a great scrummager. I think its a bit early yet for a lions call up, but he has the attributes required.

This tour could go either way really. I think the Boks (well thier fans) have perhaps over-hyped themselves just a tad, as is thier right to do so as World Champs. But I dont think they are as good as they think they are nor are they as good as the NZ teams that took to the field in 2017.

If Gatland picks a team to try and negate the Bok gameplan then I think the Lions will struggle and the Bok will win the series. If Gatland picks the best team to go out and play thier own style to win rather than trying to make thier opposition lose, then the Lions should have the quality throughout the squad to win.

Nah, Bok fans are grateful more than anything, nobody expected us to get close to the final.

They were second favorites werent they?

I put money on them wining the whole thing. Most people i knew did the same.

After our 2016-2017 season very few Springbok supporters had faith, even 2018 when Rassie took over was a 50/50 season.

Interesting...most i knew said the Boks will win it...and we'll get a semi final with an inexperienced side...but we shoud be right up there to win the next one.

Our big issue was our backline, Am, Kolbe, Mapimpi had less than 10 tests each under the belt before the RWC.

From our perspective the rush defence wasn’t sorted yet (shown up vs the AB’s in the opening match) and our backline wouldn’t be able to adjust that quick.

Old Man wrote:Our big issue was our backline, Am, Kolbe, Mapimpi had less than 10 tests each under the belt before the RWC.

From our perspective the rush defence wasn’t sorted yet (shown up vs the AB’s in the opening match) and our backline wouldn’t be able to adjust that quick.

I wish we had to solve a problem as grave as having Kolbe on the wing...

Regarding the wing position I think Watson is the most rounded player and May has class and Cokanasiga has size.  Adams is no slouch but what about Rees-Zammit?

Wing is a very strong position for the Lions. If someone good was to miss out on the test team I think it’d be Watson and Daly. I think there are other wingers in better form as of late. 

Probably too soon for Rees-Zammit as he didn’t get capped. He’s a possible bolter though.

mikey_dragon wrote:Wing is a very strong position for the Lions. If someone good was to miss out on the test team I think it’d be Watson and Daly. I think there are other wingers in better form as of late. 

Probably too soon for Rees-Zammit as he didn’t get capped. He’s a possible bolter though.

Mikey I can't agree with that. I think Watson is head and shoulders above the other wingers at the moment. May on form is fantastic, but Watson is a far more rounded player and has incredible footwork. He hit a rich vein of form at the RWC and, final aside, showed total class throughout the competition. I'd have a back 3 of May, Watson, Williams with Daly on the bench. The wonderful thing about this though is there is no wrong answer. There's so many decent wingers: You could add in Conway, Graham, Adams, Maitland, & Cokanasiga to the mix and none would let you down.

Ideally you want the absolute best in their position - Watson is a former Lions test starter and has got better. I'd have no issue with him starting over any other wing, May included.

That’s okay. Gatland rates both Watson and Daly highly, so they do stand a good chance. Personally I don’t see the need for Daly when we have Slade and a number of good back 3 players. For the test team I’d select from Williams, Hogg, Adams and May - that’s based on more recent form. Watson will likely be competing for a place too, and probably Stockdale by the time the tour rolls around. Also, hard to leave out Larmour on recent form.

Soul Requiem wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I think Gatland might want to match the Boks and negate PSDT, hence why I think he could opt for someone as good as Itoje at 6.

I think you can negate PSDT with a lightning quick back row myself; Wales would most likely have beaten South Africa were Navidi playing in my opinion so i'd be picking him alongside Curry and preferably Faletau based on fitness. Watson included in the 23 too.

Navidi is quick and pretty strong, seems like an ideal choice to me. He was awesome against Australia at the World Cup, and they had a pretty good back-row. Shingler on his previous form would be good at negating people like PSDT, but he struggled to get back into the team last season so he’ll probably miss out. I know Curry was a 7, but is he also another one who can play across the back-row now?

I feel Gatland is not convinced by Liam Williams, as I’ve said before. You can see it on the last tour highlights, that he’s noticing mistakes that frustrate him.

I would probably say a back three of Adams, Hogg, Watson. I can’t see Adams not starting (currently), with the form he has been in.

RiscaGame wrote:I feel Gatland is not convinced by Liam Williams, as I’ve said before. You can see it on the last tour highlights, that he’s noticing mistakes that frustrate him.

I would probably say a back three of Adams, Hogg, Watson. I can’t see Adams not starting (currently), with the form he has been in.

Your going to struggle to leave out Johnny May...

Aa long as Daly isnt there it's a start.

Apparently Gatland told Hogg after he was injured on the last tour that he was in line to be the starting full-back for the test series. How much of that is true it's impossible to know. It could be that Gatland was just throwing him a bone.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I think Gatland might want to match the Boks and negate PSDT, hence why I think he could opt for someone as good as Itoje at 6.

I think you can negate PSDT with a lightning quick back row myself; Wales would most likely have beaten South Africa were Navidi playing in my opinion so i'd be picking him alongside Curry and preferably Faletau based on fitness. Watson included in the 23 too.

Navidi is quick and pretty strong, seems like an ideal choice to me. He was awesome against Australia at the World Cup, and they had a pretty good back-row. Shingler on his previous form would be good at negating people like PSDT, but he struggled to get back into the team last season so he’ll probably miss out. I know Curry was a 7, but is he also another one who can play across the back-row now?

In comparison with Curry Navidi has been around for ever. I wouldn't begrudge Navidi playing a prominent role in the next Lions tour but expect huge things of Curry over the next few years

No 7&1/2 wrote:Aa long as Daly isnt there it's a start.

Daly will be on the Lions tour if he's healthy. He may not be a starter but he'll be on the bench.

I think the British Isles have some very good and exciting rugby players and I hope Gatland will not be too conservative in building a side.  A side can be selected which will both stand up to the physical nature of the Boks and play rugby.

lostinwales wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I think Gatland might want to match the Boks and negate PSDT, hence why I think he could opt for someone as good as Itoje at 6.

I think you can negate PSDT with a lightning quick back row myself; Wales would most likely have beaten South Africa were Navidi playing in my opinion so i'd be picking him alongside Curry and preferably Faletau based on fitness. Watson included in the 23 too.

Navidi is quick and pretty strong, seems like an ideal choice to me. He was awesome against Australia at the World Cup, and they had a pretty good back-row. Shingler on his previous form would be good at negating people like PSDT, but he struggled to get back into the team last season so he’ll probably miss out. I know Curry was a 7, but is he also another one who can play across the back-row now?

In comparison with Curry Navidi has been around for ever. I wouldn't begrudge Navidi playing a prominent role in the next Lions tour but expect huge things of Curry over the next few years

Yeah unless a serious injury stops him, Curry should have a long and successful career. I don’t know why Navidi didn’t become a mainstay sooner. I guess it’s because we had good success with Lydiate, Warburton and Faletau for a while.

lostinwales wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I think Gatland might want to match the Boks and negate PSDT, hence why I think he could opt for someone as good as Itoje at 6.

I think you can negate PSDT with a lightning quick back row myself; Wales would most likely have beaten South Africa were Navidi playing in my opinion so i'd be picking him alongside Curry and preferably Faletau based on fitness. Watson included in the 23 too.

Navidi is quick and pretty strong, seems like an ideal choice to me. He was awesome against Australia at the World Cup, and they had a pretty good back-row. Shingler on his previous form would be good at negating people like PSDT, but he struggled to get back into the team last season so he’ll probably miss out. I know Curry was a 7, but is he also another one who can play across the back-row now?

In comparison with Curry Navidi has been around for ever. I wouldn't begrudge Navidi playing a prominent role in the next Lions tour but expect huge things of Curry over the next few years

His Twin Brother is the better player aswell

Hogg woud be my starting 15 by a country mile if he is fit and on form.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Hogg woud be my starting 15 by a country mile if he is fit and on form.

Not sure about the country mile, but i believe he should certainly tour and be in the picture for the test XV. Bear in mind that Larmour, Williams and Watson are also extremely good attacking fullbacks.

i would only consider Watson for wing. Lamour yes and Williams but i dont think they are as good as Hogg.