Wales - 2019/20 - Pivac, Grand Slams, and beyond - Post-RWC '19 and 2020 6Ns build up

First topic message reminder :

Wales' 2020 Six Nations Squad:

Forwards (21)

Rhys Carre (Saracens) (6 Caps)
Rob Evans (Scarlets) (36 Caps)
Wyn Jones (Scarlets) (22 Caps)
Elliot Dee (Dragons) (29 Caps)
Ryan Elias (Scarlets) (9 Caps)
Ken Owens (Scarlets) (73 Caps)
Leon Brown (Dragons) (6 Caps)
WillGriff John (Sale) (*uncapped)
Dillon Lewis (Blues) (22 Caps)
Jake Ball (Scarlets) (42 Caps)
Adam Beard (Ospreys) (20 Caps)
Seb Davies (Blues) (7 Caps)
Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys) (134 Caps) (CAPTAIN)
Will Rowlands (Wasps) (*uncapped)
Cory Hill (Dragons) (24 Caps)
Aaron Shingler (Scarlets) (26 Caps)
Aaron Wainwright (Dragons) (18 Caps)
Taulupe Faletau (Bath) (72 Caps)
Ross Moriarty (Dragons) (41 Caps)
Josh Navidi (Blues) (23 Caps)
Justin Tipuric (Osprey) (72 Caps)

Backs (17)

Gareth Davies (Scarlets) (51 Caps)
Rhys Webb (Toulon) (31 Caps)
Tomos Williams (Blues) (16 Caps)
Dan Biggar (Northampton) (79 Caps)
Owen Williams (Gloucester) (3 Caps)
Jarrod Evans (Blues) (3 Caps)
Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets) (25 Caps)
Nick Tompkins (Saracens) (*uncapped)
Owen Watkin (Ospreys) (22 Caps)
George North (Ospreys) (91 Caps)
Josh Adams (Blues) (21 Caps)
Owen Lane (Blues) (2 Caps)
Johnny McNicholl (Scarlets) (*uncapped)
Louis Rees-Zammit (Gloucester) (*uncapped)
Jonah Holmes (Leicester Tigers) (3 Caps)
Leigh Halfpenny (Scarlets) (85 Caps)
Liam Williams (Saracens) (62 Caps)

Yeah true, although Owen Williams wasn't that good if I remember rightly. Ben Thomas looks like a good prospect, and Jarrod looked good at 12 albeit for just two games (I think?).

mikey_dragon wrote:Yeah true, although Owen Williams wasn't that good if I remember rightly. Ben Thomas looks like a good prospect, and Jarrod looked good at 12 albeit for just two games (I think?).

The Parkes stop gap. He was drafted in for one AI in 2018 wasn't he? He's getting nowhere near a matchday squad at Glos, despite being on £300k a year. I think his contract ends up at the end of the season, it would be interesting if anyone takes him on.

Yeah he would be a good addition to a team and I think he had a really good boot at some point. His style would be a good contrast to one of the first choices at the Regions. I think it's a certainty he'll leave Gloucester. I reckon Cardiff would be the ones to show the most intent in signing him because he can play at 10 and 12.

chris_501 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Yeah true, although Owen Williams wasn't that good if I remember rightly. Ben Thomas looks like a good prospect, and Jarrod looked good at 12 albeit for just two games (I think?).

The Parkes stop gap. He was drafted in for one AI in 2018 wasn't he? He's getting nowhere near a matchday squad at Glos, despite being on £300k a year. I think his contract ends up at the end of the season, it would be interesting if anyone takes him on.

Be interesting to see what he would earn in Wales (if he came back), as I suspect it wouldn’t be that. He would probably be too pricey for Dragons and I believe that Ryan would be keen to develop what he already has in Dixon, Griffiths and Edwards and spend elsewhere.

If we’re talking about 12 then I think I’d prefer to see a 10 move out than a wing move in. Like an NZ 2nd 5/8th or whatever they call them. Think Henson, McAllister, Giteau, Carter, Wilkinson, Farrell, etc. who all played there. I like it for the distribution skills. Not sure who that could be though? If 13 then a wing moving in could be good. Lane, North, etc. Always wondered whether Amos could do a job there?

Yeah that's usually what NZ do, put another fly-half at 12. A wing to 13 if needs be. I just didn't think Owen Williams was good there, perhaps he's just a good club player and decent 5th choice Wales fly-half.

Yeah, has to be right. They don’t always do well, as in the Owen Williams example. This is all dependent on how Pivac wants us to play. Although saying that, it was interesting to read an interview with Gatland where he said that Warrenball/Gatlandball wasn’t really by design. He said he just happened to have a loads of big guys come through around the same time and for a number of years - Roberts, North, Phillips, Cuthbert, JD2, etc. He said he’s always seen what he’s got and then fit a game plan to that, rather than the other way around. So I’ve always assumed that Pivac will have Wales playing like he had the Scarlets playing but perhaps it depends who he has available. If a monster 12 comes through again maybe we’ll end up with crash ball rugby! (I still think there’s a place for a big crash ball 12 - just not to a point where it becomes obvious, predictable and pedestrian, as happened with Roberts and Wales).

Anyone got any thoughts on Steve Tandy becomming the new defence coach for Scotland, starting immediately for this years 6N?

A good appointment?

BigGee wrote:Anyone got any thoughts on Steve Tandy becomming the new defence coach for Scotland, starting immediately for this years 6N?

A good appointment?

I never really rated him as Ospreys head coach but I think that was because he wasn’t a big name and stepped in to take over the reigns at a time when there was a downturn in funding, etc. Always thought he was the cause of the fall but it might have been more to do with off field stuff. I think the Os have got worse since he left, so that might indicate he was ok!

Not a good appointment. Before he was sacked by Ospreys there were rumours of mutiny, infighting, etc. Webb and Biggar left to go elsewhere because of it.

mikey_dragon wrote:Not a good appointment. Before he was sacked by Ospreys there were rumours of mutiny, infighting, etc. Webb and Biggar left to go elsewhere because of it.

Hopefully at international level he won't be dealing with that kind of stuff and can just concentrate on the coaching. Maybe that might suit him better, he seems to have gone well with the Tah's in that role.

Here is hoping!

Yeah I don’t rate him but he could come good through all these new coaching experiences, and he’s no Phil Davies so you might be okay.

RiscaGame wrote:

chris_501 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Yeah true, although Owen Williams wasn't that good if I remember rightly. Ben Thomas looks like a good prospect, and Jarrod looked good at 12 albeit for just two games (I think?).

The Parkes stop gap. He was drafted in for one AI in 2018 wasn't he? He's getting nowhere near a matchday squad at Glos, despite being on £300k a year. I think his contract ends up at the end of the season, it would be interesting if anyone takes him on.

Be interesting to see what he would earn in Wales (if he came back), as I suspect it wouldn’t be that. He would probably be too pricey for Dragons and I believe that Ryan would be keen to develop what he already has in Dixon, Griffiths and Edwards and spend elsewhere.

The move to Gloucester has been a disaster for Owen Williams. At Tigers he was flying high, he's big strong, quick, has great hands including a wicked miss pass and an absolute siege gun of a boot. Injuries and Ackerman wanting the mercurial genius of Cipriani instead the consistency of Williams has meant his career has stalled badly. His bank balance is probably looking awesome though. If Williams wants to get back in Welsh contention he'll head home on a considerable wage reduction and probably do very well, the Ospreys want a new 10 don't they? One that can also play 12 alongside Anscombe would work out very well.

Tandy seems to have done well as a defence coach at the Tahs. Maybe head coach was a step beyond him.

Interested to hear what the Welsh view is on Rees-Zammit. He's absolutely rapid and pushing through into first team Premiership Rugby. Will he get a call up soon?

He (Rees-Zammit) is probably capable of stepping up but I don't think there is any need to rush him. Let the U20s play U20 rugby and see how they do on that stage. The other U20s I refer to are Ioan Lloyd and Taine Basham.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:

chris_501 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Yeah true, although Owen Williams wasn't that good if I remember rightly. Ben Thomas looks like a good prospect, and Jarrod looked good at 12 albeit for just two games (I think?).

The Parkes stop gap. He was drafted in for one AI in 2018 wasn't he? He's getting nowhere near a matchday squad at Glos, despite being on £300k a year. I think his contract ends up at the end of the season, it would be interesting if anyone takes him on.

Be interesting to see what he would earn in Wales (if he came back), as I suspect it wouldn’t be that. He would probably be too pricey for Dragons and I believe that Ryan would be keen to develop what he already has in Dixon, Griffiths and Edwards and spend elsewhere.

The move to Gloucester has been a disaster for Owen Williams. At Tigers he was flying high, he's big strong, quick, has great hands including a wicked miss pass and an absolute siege gun of a boot. Injuries and Ackerman wanting the mercurial genius of Cipriani instead the consistency of Williams has meant his career has stalled badly. His bank balance is probably looking awesome though. If Williams wants to get back in Welsh contention he'll head home on a considerable wage reduction and probably do very well, the Ospreys want a new 10 don't they? One that can also play 12 alongside Anscombe would work out very well.

Tandy seems to have done well as a defence coach at the Tahs. Maybe head coach was a step beyond him.

Interested to hear what the Welsh view is on Rees-Zammit. He's absolutely rapid and pushing through into first team Premiership Rugby. Will he get a call up soon?

If Ospreys signed Webb back, with Anscombe at 10 and signed Williams for 12, they’d probably be sharp. But then there are those that like the Williams they have already.

I don’t watch English Prem now, sadly, so can’t comment on RZ.

He scored a hat trick for Gloucester yesterday, looks like a young man in a hurry.

Hard to imagine he is not in Pivac's thoughts. He may well be in Eddie Jone's as well!

Ospreys backline is the worst I’ve ever seen. Signing Webb and Williams would be a statement of intent. I wouldn’t mind Dragons signing both of those either. Williams at 12 clearly isn’t working for them, try telling that to ‘Guest’ who was demanding that SW be thrust into the Wales starting team for the World Cup KO stages....

BigGee wrote:He scored a hat trick for Gloucester yesterday, looks like a young man in a hurry.

Hard to imagine he is not in Pivac's thoughts. He may well be in Eddie Jone's as well!

Yes, we need to be careful that we don’t miss out on him. Not sure if he’s a diehard Welshman or whether he has split allegiances? Don’t know much about him. I was reading yesterday that Wales U20s are no longer our 2nd designated team by which to ‘capture’ players and tie them to Wales (when playing another side using the U20s as their 2nd side, e.g. France). Not since 2016 apparently. Our A team is now our 2nd capping side even though they have not played any games since being re-introduced. So he’ll need capping at senior level if there’s a risk he might be snapped up by Eddie.

No split allegiances at all, same for Lloyd at Bristol. Ioan Lloyd looks like Matthew Morgan but a bit bigger and better at tackling. We'll probably lose Sheedy though.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/home-or-holm-the-impending-louis-rees-zammit-contract-flashpoint

Good article on the dilemmas surrounding RZs potential call up and his next contract! You would imagine that Gloucester won't be in a great rush to let him go!

Well it's almost the new year so i'll have a go at picking the squad. I will have left a few out, either as they're injured or just returning from injury but with exceptions.

LH: Wyn Jones, Rhys Carre, Nicky Smith
Hooker: Ken Owens, Elliot Dee, Ryan Elias
TH: WillGriff John, Samson Lee, Leon Brown
Lock: Adam Beard, Jake Ball, AWJ, Cory Hill
Flanker: Aaron Wainwright, Aaron Shingler, Justin Tipuric, Taine Basham
No.8: Josh Navidi, Taulupe Faletau
Scrum-half: Tomos Williams, Gareth Davies
Fly-half: Jarrod Evans, Dan Biggar
Centre: Hadleigh Parkes, Jamie Roberts
Wing: Josh Adams, Johnny McNicholl, Owen Lane, Louis Rees-Zammit
Full-back: Leigh Halfpenny

Guess I've gone back on my word, if you're good enough you're old enough. Those are just the name off the top of my head. The third scrum-half is a shoot out between Rhodri William and Keiran Hardy. Outside centre is possibly George North, Tyler Morgan, or Aaron Warren. I think we're light there and at LH. McNicholl to provide cover at 15.

I almost forgot about Moriarty, I think he will probably go over Basham, unless both can go. Navidi can also play 7 obvs, and interception pass aside I think he was brilliant in his first game back against Dragons.

Some of the significant names missing are Tomas Francis, Rhys Patchell, Jon Davies, Gareth Anscombe, Ellis Jenkins, Owen Watkin, Liam Williams - just off the top of my head again.

Guys can you help me out here, is WillGriff John ineligible? He signed a contract extension with Sale Sharks to 2021 but he wasn't on the Wales radar then, so as far as I know he can play for Wales up to 2021 when he must return to a Welsh region. He's an important anchor in a dominant Sale scrum and we'd be missing a trick by not bringing him in. With Carre and Brown improving our options at prop are starting to look pretty good. No to Dillon Lewis for me.

Rhys Webb will be back in contention now he has signed for Ospreys after they bought out the last year of his contract.

LordDowlais wrote:Rhys Webb will be back in contention now he has signed for Ospreys after they bought out the last year of his contract.

Yes and no. I’m not sure whether he will really get a shot again, given his age and the fact he has been out of the picture for a while. If you’re talking a four year cycle, you’d stick with what we have and look to develop younger mostly, I reckon. Whilst by the WRU rules, he’s in contention, I would be surprised to see him play again too often.

Without nitpicking (just seeking clarity, before offence is taken), didn’t Webb get released from his final year of contract for family reasons, rather than be bought out of it?

RiscaGame wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Rhys Webb will be back in contention now he has signed for Ospreys after they bought out the last year of his contract.

Yes and no. I’m not sure whether he will really get a shot again, given his age and the fact he has been out of the picture for a while. If you’re talking a four year cycle, you’d stick with what we have and look to develop younger mostly, I reckon. Whilst by the WRU rules, he’s in contention, I would be surprised to see him play again too often.

Without nitpicking (just seeking clarity, before offence is taken), didn’t Webb get released from his final year of contract for family reasons, rather than be bought out of it?

Yes your final paragraph or sentence is correct no money was exchanged between Ospreys and Toulon.

Is that how the rules work, that he is now eligible for the upcoming 6N having signed with Ospreys?

mikey_dragon wrote:Is that how the rules work, that he is now eligible for the upcoming 6N having signed with Ospreys?

I’m not sure that is accurate but it would be nice. Tough battle at 9 if it is the case.

Centre is the interesting selection. Where do we go? Parkes is about though not inspiring likewise Scott Williams. Ben Johnson at blues looks great, big step up and would he play at 13 with Hadleigh inside him or do we drop HP for BJ and look at a new flying 13?

I would really like to see Pivac cap Sheedy and Protheroe quickly too. Both very talented creative players that we need to keep available to wales.

maestegmafia wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Is that how the rules work, that he is now eligible for the upcoming 6N having signed with Ospreys?

I’m not sure that is accurate but it would be nice. Tough battle at 9 if it is the case.

Perhaps not the case for us, but it was with Australia who I thought we copied .

mikey_dragon wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Is that how the rules work, that he is now eligible for the upcoming 6N having signed with Ospreys?

I’m not sure that is accurate but it would be nice. Tough battle at 9 if it is the case.

Perhaps not the case for us, but it was with Australia who I thought we copied .

Well every other nation is happy to exploit the rules unless caught so why not us for a change..?

Rhodri
Rhys
Tomas
Gareth

That’s a pretty formidable nine line up, not sure who I would drop out of the four?

As I said centre is the issue where we are looking for new ideas and it’s not bad to be looking either. A bit of reinvention might liven it up for the fans..!

https://wales-admin.soticcloud.net/2020/01/webb-eligible-for-2020-guinness-six-nations-selection/

Webb is eligible.

mikey_dragon wrote:https://wales-admin.soticcloud.net/2020/01/webb-eligible-for-2020-guinness-six-nations-selection/

Webb is eligible.

Can he play outside centre?!

Didn’t expect the WRU to do that. Clearly he should make the squad now then and it’s pretty obvious who for. I think I would probably have T Williams as my starting 9 for the next RWC (as it currently stands), so I would still like to see him get good game time.

Tom Williams and Jarrod Evans to start at halfback for me. Davies/Webb and Biggar to come off the bench. 13's are available it's just a matter of whether they get picked, and before Guest asks no it isn't Scott Williams ffs.

Tough battle for the nine shirt. Tomos is the form player with Webb and GD nipping at his heels

In the ten shirt I’d take three. Jarrod Evans, Callum Sheedy and Mat Protheroe

How much does planning for the world cup cycle come into it in terms of the selections for half backs? Realistically Webb would be pushing it to make that. But does the injury situation, and new coach wanting desperately to get off on as strong a start as possible, influence the selections more in terms of short term thinking?
In terms of SH its nice to have the headache at least, elsewhere in the midfield it seems to be name a fit player time.

Gooseberry wrote:How much does planning for the world cup cycle come into it in terms of the selections for half backs? Realistically Webb would be pushing it to make that. But does the injury situation, and new coach wanting desperately to get off on as strong a start as possible, influence the selections more in terms of short term thinking?
In terms of SH its nice to have the headache at least, elsewhere in the midfield it seems to be name a fit player time.

There may be a new face or two at Tighthead and outside centre but there’s a lot of competition for the rest of the places in the squad.

Squad is announced February 1st.

Some fans, or 'guests' shall we say, seemed to be of the opinion that we should sacrifice everything for the sake of having a young and experienced team at the next world cup. It doesn't work like that for me. Some guys need to be slowly integrated, whilst older guys still have their worth and will probably continue to show it throughout this cycle; then in addition to that you get guys like Carre who step in out of nowhere and don't look outta place. I don't think we've had a good centre come through in a while. Some popped up but have regressed (Allen, Morgan, Watkin). I think in future we'll probably see one of our fly-halves at 12, and a winger at 13. Luckily we're strong on the wing right now.

mikey_dragon wrote:Some fans, or 'guests' shall we say, seemed to be of the opinion that we should sacrifice everything for the sake of having a young and experienced team at the next world cup. It doesn't work like that for me. Some guys need to be slowly integrated, whilst older guys still have their worth and will probably continue to show it throughout this cycle; then in addition to that you get guys like Carre who step in out of nowhere and don't look outta place. I don't think we've had a good centre come through in a while. Some popped up but have regressed (Allen, Morgan, Watkin). I think in future we'll probably see one of our fly-halves at 12, and a winger at 13. Luckily we're strong on the wing right now.

Just saw Biggar is selected in Northamptons team this weekend, thought Saints said he was injured and unlikely to make the six nations?

There are a number of players who are young but not very young who deserve a look. Sheedy and Protheroe are worthy of a shot. Both are playing superb rugby full of skill. Rhys Carre as you say needs more exposure to the wales set up, and I think you mentioned the Sale Tighthead as well, good call. Leon Brown is really starting to bare fruit at the dragons this season. Ben Thom’s looks a great choice for inside centre sooner or later. Steff Hughes being touted as a thirteen option after good work at the scarlets...! I would rather see players play in their preferred position than supplemented into new roles unnecessarily.

A mix of a squad between experienced nouse and youthful exuberance would be my wish....!

No I didn't hear that. I'm not sure Protheroe, Costelow or Sheedy are on our radar either tbh, wouldn't mind Sheedy though. Rees-Zammit, Basham and possibly Lloyd could be invited to train. It would be a welcome surprised if any of them made the squad.

Yes I'm happy for more of our front-row players to be playing in the premiership. John has been in the Sale first team for a couple seasons and is highly rated, whilst Carre seems to have become a regular in the Sarries 23 and they aren't short of depth. Leon Brown has improved a lot but I don't think he's first choice for Wales just yet, it'll be good to see him have a fair crack at it though. WillGriff John over Dillon Lewis is an absolute no-brainer for me. Next LH in line (maybe 6N next year) is probably Domachowski if he can continue to kick on with the Blues. It's perhaps too soon for Ben Thomas but he seems promising. I never really rated Hughes since U20s rugby tbh.

I agree on Hughes before but he is showing good things this season.

Interesting about Biggar. Good news though.

RiscaGame wrote:Interesting about Biggar. Good news though.

Yes, hopefully. He’s been in good form so far for saints

With regards to a change in the order we still have a tour to New Zealand next summer I think we don’t want to change everything too drastically just yet.

I’d love to see some talent added to the squad but we need to be competitive in this six nations and on tour.

Back to back GSs???

Big question marks over the Welsh centres. I think Scott Williams looks like the obvious choice if fit. Big game against the Dragons tomorrow could see him in to the 13 shirt.

Otherwise Steff Hughes, Corey Baldwin, Ben Thomas, Jack Dixon, Tyler Morgan could be called up, but not sure any of them are ready yet, or good enough.

If Parkes gets injured then Jamie Roberts might be hanging by the phone.

Miaow didn't stay away for long then. #honeymoonover

maestegmafia wrote:With regards to a change in the order we still have a tour to New Zealand next summer I think we don’t want to change everything too drastically just yet.

I’d love to see some talent added to the squad but we need to be competitive in this six nations and on tour.

Back to back GSs???

I think Wales will be competitive if the injuries ease off, then we'll have some good competition for places. If we don't find a midfield solution immediately teams like NZ will carve us up there.

Lots being said about this Rees-Zammit kid. Looks like a good prospect for the future but too soon for Wales. Bags of pace but very raw and can't defend. No need to rush him, should be good for a cap in the autumn.

Hope North has a big game against the Dragons. Johnny McNicholl is putting pressure on him for a starting place now.