Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[JuliusHMarx]

First topic message reminder :

How have some individuals got to the point where all they do is whinge and moan and complain about other people without any sense of compassion for those less well off than themselves through no fault of their own?

[McLaren]

Navy

It is pretty simple. I want to know how other people being hypocrites alters your behavior?

[navyblueshorts]

Navy

It is pretty simple. I want to know how other people being hypocrites alters your behavior?

It doesn't as I have more integrity than many, it would appear. However, if you accept the logic that, for example, Dominic Cummings's behaviour had a negative effect on general behaviour re. Covid, then it's clearly a widespread societal issue.

Let me be clear re. you and me. I find your inability (deliberate or subconscious) to apply equal standards to what you say (and presumably what you do) across all areas of debate a poor example of behaviour and a pretty good match for being described as a hypocrite. This is made worse by you wrapping yourself in some metaphorical cloak of wokeness, as if you're blind to the contradictions. Whatever; you'll not change, notwithstanding that this sort of text-only-based forum isn't ideal for clear understanding. I'm sure you're a good egg in real life and I'm sure we could have a good game of golf and beer or whatever afterwards....as long as we stayed away from political discussion perhaps .

[westisbest]

I would say sportsmen and woman are role models.

Young children who play sports, want to be as good as the likes of say, Henry, Ronaldo, Messi, Federer, O’Driscoll  Carter, Wilkinson, to name a few.

Yes, some footballers etc act like idiots, but youngsters will still look up to them in general.


Also i don’t think it’s the same to compare a player who plays in a team sport to an individual sport, in terms of trophies won.

[super_realist]

Why are sportsmen held to different standards than any other celebrity? No one looks up to Johnny Depp or Keith Richards as role models.

[westisbest]

What about drama students. Would they not look to the likes of Depp and want to follow in his footsteps in the acting world.

[JAS]

Yet another decent result in Europe for the Currant Buns last night. On the one hand they must be frustrated at not finishing Benfica after having their foot on their throats in both games but in the big picture, they'd have taken 2 draws when the groups were announced. Not quite done yet but qualification will surely come.

So third season in for Stevie G, surely even the most anti-Rangers/anti-Old Firm/anti Scottish Football detractors would now admit there's been significant progress?

The tricky questions now are...
How far can they go this season in the Europa League?
If, as seems increasingly likely, they qualify for the Champions League next season, how will they fare?
Is the balance of power in Glasgow approaching the tipping point?
How long will they hold on to Gerrard?

[super_realist]

Did you think so JAS? Blowing a two goal lead against a team ravaged with withdrawals from positive Covid Tests. Sounds more like a bottle job. If I was No Forehead Gerrard I would be absolutely raging with that result because that is exactly why they failed last year, far too many draws from winning positions.

I agree there's been progress, but it's still Scottish football and it's still a wretched product that drastically needs a revamp.

If they win the tinpot league and if they get into the Champions League, they might get one more season out of him, but no one stays in the poisonous cauldron of Glasgow unless they are a die hard fan. Both clubs are stepping stones and shop windows to get moves to better and bigger clubs.

Gerrard will go to a promotion challenging Championship club or a traditionally  bottom tier team in the Premiership. Could see him somewhere like Palace, Brighton or Leeds. You might claim that Celtic and Rangers are bigger, but that's only among their fans. No one else cares about them, so it's about moving to a club with more competition and more money and not having to play in awful 4th rate stadiums every second week, whilst he'll want to work with far better players and challenge himself against better teams than Hamilton and St Mirren.

[JAS]

Did you think so JAS? Blowing a two goal lead against a team ravaged with withdrawals from positive Covid Tests. Sounds more like a bottle job.

I agree there's been progress, but it's still Scottish football and it's still a wretched product.

If they win the tinpot league and if they get into the Champions League, they might get one more season out of him, but no one stays in the poisonous cauldron of Glasgow unless they are a die hard fan.
Gerrard will go to a promotion challenging Championship club or a traditionally  bottom tier team in the Premiership. Could see him somewhere like Palace or Leeds.

Blowing a 2 goal lead in both games is concerning yes but in the overall context, as I said they'd have taken 2 draws before a ball was kicked. Remember 3 years ago they were getting humiliated by a part time Luxemburg outfit, roll forward 39 months and they're frustrated at only drawing with the 4th biggest spenders (over the summer) in European football.

The European record under Gerrard is played 39, won 20, drawn 14, lost 5 which is hugely impressive when the list of teams includes Villareal, Feyenoord, Porto, Braga, Galatasary, Standard Liege & Benfica. The only team that has genuinely outclassed them has been Bayer Leverkuysen in the last 16 last season.

Gerrard's main job has to be getting the title off Celtic, that's beginning to look good but certainly no foregone conclusion. That'll please the huns more than any European run but it's the European record that's going to make other Clubs start noticing Gerrard.

I think he'll have at least one, maybe 2 tilts at the Champions League before he gets to the point where he knows he can't take Rangers any further. The state of the league does limit Rangers and Celtics capability to compete at the top level. Christ Rangers had to start from scratch 8 years ago and they just come straight through the whole league setup like a knife through butter to reestablish themselves in a top 2, miles ahead of the rest. I'd like to see the league a lot more competitive with the likes of the Aberdeens and Hibs making Europa League group stages, I just don't see it happening.

[Soul Requiem]

Did you think so JAS? Blowing a two goal lead against a team ravaged with withdrawals from positive Covid Tests. Sounds more like a bottle job. If I was No Forehead Gerrard I would be absolutely raging with that result because that is exactly why they failed last year, far too many draws from winning positions.

Are you capable of making comments without adding these childish jibes?

[super_realist]

It's just a forum, not the Oxford Bloody Union.

[super_realist]

Rangers and  Celtic have to take responsibility for their lack of progress as they directly influence the competitiveness of their domestic competition by asset stripping the league of the best players.
You can't blame lack of progress in Europe on lack of competition domestically when your teams are at least partially responsible for the parlous state of Scottish football.

Rangers also didn't come through the league set up like a "knife through butter" as it took them two years to grt out of the Championship and a good few more barely making second place once they got into the Premier League.

[JAS]

Rangers and  Celtic have to take responsibility for their lack of progress as they directly influence the competitiveness of their domestic competition by asset stripping the league of the best players.
You can't blame lack of progress in Europe on lack of competition domestically when your teams are at least partially responsible for the parlous state of Scottish football.

Or maybe you could say the "other teams have to take responsibility for themselves" Rangers gave the rest a golden opportunity to others to establishing themselves as title contenders and NOBODY stepped up to the plate, Celtic could have won the league with their reserves for at least 7 of their 9. Are you suggesting Rangers & Celtic shouldn't try to strengthen when they can? FWIW, I haven't checked exactly how many but I know there's a fair chunk of ex-Murray Park apprentices now plying their trade in other Scottish clubs so it cuts both ways.

Rangers also didn't come through the league set up like a "knife through butter" as it took them two years to grt out of the Championship and a good few more barely making second place once they got into the Premier League.

Now there's a desperate case of splitting hairs. If they do go on to win the title this season it'll be 8 seasons from scratch to title. Back in 2012 I would have put that as the absolute minimum. They were always going to coast through the lower divisions and (yes they did stumble one season). It was always going to be harder reestablishing themselves as title challengers once in the top flight though, with all due respect to the players that got them through the lower leagues there were clearly going to have to have a substantial squad overhaul and that takes time and to have to do it when your mains rivals have 8-9 years of European competition cash behind them was always going to be a huge ask. I will admit I did initially baulk at the appointment of Gerrard, I thought it was a huge gamble but it really is beginning to look now like it was an inspired choice.

I think you should go and find a spoonful of sugar to counteract those bitter lemons

[McLaren]

I think you should go and find a spoonful of sugar to counteract those bitter lemons

How tragic

[super_realist]

I don't think you get it JAS, Celtic and Rangers have the financial clout to effectively buy titles. No other team in the league does.
How can you ever realistically expect any team other than the Old Firm to challenge for the league in this day and age? That's a seriously ridiculous suggestion.

My point about Rangers and Celtic asset stripping is that they do so whilst simultaneously complaining about the lack of competition within the league, well they are partly responsible for it. It's sheer stupidity and incredible short sightedness to complain about something you are responsible for. Of course I expect them to improve theor teams, but if they do so by taking players directly from their competition, don't complain that you find the league too easy and don't complain that these teams aren't making sufficient challenge in the league.

Rangers going through the leagues was as guaranteed as a father beating his 6 year old at football. Half of those teams were part time for a start and didn't even have 1/10th of Rangers budget.

Scottish football has far too many teams and far too many leagues. Get rid of half of them and concentrate on making it two leagues. Tiers 3 and 4 of Scottish football are a complete joke and are just a waste of time and are just pretending to be professional sport. It's an even worse standard than the Europro Golf Tour is.

Also, I'm not bitter because I don't have a team. I'm just pointing out that Scottish football is dire and why.

[JAS]

No I don't think you get it Super, the scenario you mention is nothing unusual and happens in most leagues throughout Europe, on a different scale in some places though. Barca and Real in Spain, Porto & Benfica in Portugal, Ajax & PSV in Holland etc etc. In those countries though, the other teams find a way to make progress...Atletico, Braga, Feyenoord.

By the same token, the same element of financial clout that allows them to dominate in Scotland, condemns them to be asset stripped (when they have them) by bigger European fish. So they're kind of caught between being too big for one pond and not big enough for another. In the days before money completely ruined football it didn't matter quite so much but it does now.
Completely agree about there being too many professional clubs and league tiers. One league of 20 should more than cover it. The rest can drop down to the Juniors Leagues, There could be 4 (maybe more) regional junior leagues with play offs and ultimately the playoff winner replaces the bottom club each year.

I'd be quite curious of the average attendance of say Auchinleck Talbot compared to say Arbroath, Brechin, Cowdenbeath East Fife etc

[super_realist]

You were expecting Hearts or Aberdeen to challenge for the league when they demonstrably don't have the resources to mount such a challenge. It's a silly thing to expect.

You're right that Celtic and Rangers are selling clubs now, largely to the Southampton level of club, rather than "European giants" but those players aren't making other clubs in the SPL stronger and Celtic and Rangers respond by buying the likes of Ryan Christie, so it's a circular problem that ensures Celtic and Rangers always have a massive advantage. I'd prefer Celtic and Rangers to have the good grace to leave Scottish players where they are and either develop their own players or get them elsewhere. It would be far better for the league.

Nothing will ever change though because the league and the SFA have no balls or brains at all to do anything differently.

To me summer football is a no brainer. Why anyone would want to be at Pittodrie or Kilmarnock on a February Tuesday evening is beyond me.

[McLaren]

Super

Have you watched any SPFL this century?

[JAS]

You were expecting Hearts or Aberdeen to challenge for the league when they demonstrably don't have the resources to mount such a challenge. It's a silly thing to expect.

Not if another Ferguson or McLean came along... they showed that at least its possible, highly unlikely but possible

You're right that Celtic and Rangers are selling clubs now,

Yep they tried not to be, indeed Rangers tried to be financially big...it didn't end well!! HMRC didn't like the way they paid the big players they attracted. :-p

largely to the Southampton level of club

You say that as if they shouldn't be selling to the likes of Southampton?

I'd prefer Celtic and Rangers to have the good grace to leave Scottish players where they are and either develop their own players or get them elsewhere. It would be far better for the league.

What? you mean like deliberately assert a degree of control over a free market?? So there is hope of turning you Socialist yet :-p

By the way they DO develop their own that are capable of going on to greater things...Billy Gilmour at Chelsea, he's an Murray Park graduate

Nothing will ever change though because the league and the SFA have no balls or brains at all to do anything differently.

Emphatically agree

To me summer football is a no brainer. Why anyone would want to be at Pittodrie or Kilmarnock  on a February Tuesday evening is beyond me.

So you keep saying, I don't wholly disagree but I don't think its a magic bullet either

[super_realist]

Super

Have you watched any SPFL this century?

Mac, not only have I watched it but I've probably been to more matches than you have.
It is pitiful stuff.

[super_realist]

JAS, it wouldn't matter if a Ferguson or McLean came along now. They were successful when there was a far more equal footing.
Ancelotti hasn't exactly won the League for Everton has he?
You can't just stick a big name in at a club and suddenly expect to be winning leagues when there are half a dozen clubs above you with far more cash and who are seen as a sexier option to be at.

I mentioned Southampton because I wanted to differentiate and dispel the myth that either half of the Ugly Sisters are selling to "European Giants" as you suggest, rather mid table mediocrity in England largely.
The last player to go anywhere of any note was Dembele to Lyon, and they aren't exactly what anyone would call "a giant". Gilmour was not even a first team player when he went to Chelsea but I give him credit for not hanging around in Glasgow. The likes of McGregor, Jack, Kent, Christie, Tavernier and Forrest should be doing what Brown was too scared to do and join (or return) to a better league.

I can't see summer football being anything but a positive, at the very least they'd be better prepared for Europe.

[westisbest]

I’d have liked to see Scott Brown moved to the EPL to see how well he would do.

My Celtic supporting mates tell he’s quality.

But would he be quality in England?

[McLaren]

Have to say I have no idea why callum mcgregor is still in the SPFL. He could probably get a move to most teams in England. No worse than Jordan Henderson for example.

[super_realist]

I’d have liked to see Scott Brown moved to the EPL to see how well he would do.

My Celtic supporting mates tell he’s quality.

But would he be quality in England?

He's not what I'd call "quality", I'd say he was robust. Probably be about as successful as Barry Fergushun was, couple of seasons at a poor team like Blackburn then come running back.
He's the sort of player who would be at Bournemouth, Norwich or West Brom but unlikely at any of the better clubs or a flair team
Tierney is doing quite well, but Arsenal are not really Bergkamp/Henry era anymore.

[JAS]

Super if I ever lose the ability to find negativity in anything I'll give you a shout. You could actually be a negativity coach :-p

[JAS]

I’d have liked to see Scott Brown moved to the EPL to see how well he would do.

My Celtic supporting mates tell he’s quality.

But would he be quality in England?

So would I :-p

Probably the best opponent winder upper in the Scottish game. Doesn't like it back though

[super_realist]

Super if I ever lose the ability to find negativity in anything I'll give you a shout. You could actually be a negativity coach :-p

Simple logic Jas, if you have the talent to earn more money, have better colleagues and a better workplace with prolonged foreign travel after Christmas, you'd be a fool not to take it.

Tierney realised that the continual winning of tinfoil trophies was not as important as challenging his talent in a bigger pond, what's wrong with the rest of them?

[beninho]

The Pep barca team was probably the best team I've ever seen. I saw this today.

https://twitter.com/FCBarcelona/status/1332988146204745728?s=19

Though also the masterclass against Man Utd at Wembley.

[superflyweight]

The Pep barca team was probably the best team I've ever seen. I saw this today.

https://twitter.com/FCBarcelona/status/1332988146204745728?s=19

Though also the masterclass against Man Utd at Wembley.

That 5-0 against Madrid is the best team performance I've ever seen. They were incredible that night against a very strong Madrid side.

[Soul Requiem]

Always preferred Rijkaards Barca side, not quite as dominant as the Pep side but far more entertaining. Ronaldinho and Eto'o in full flow was something else.

[pedro]

I did enjoy the 90's side with Romario, Stoichkov and Laudrup (and of course Koeman and Pep).

[McLaren]

Man Utd '08 team has to be in the conversation of best ever.

[navyblueshorts]

Man Utd '08 team has to be in the conversation of best ever.

[McLaren]

Van der Sar
Neville
Evra
Ferdinand
Vidic
Carrick
Hargreaves
Fletcher
Scholes
Ronaldo
Giggs
Park
Nani
Rooney
Tevez
Saha


That is a ridiculously good squad.

[pedro]

Those 16 could beat any Barca 11.

[super_realist]

Van der Sar
Neville
Evra
Ferdinand
Vidic
Carrick
Hargreaves
Fletcher
Scholes
Ronaldo
Giggs
Park
Nani
Rooney
Tevez
Saha


That is a ridiculously good squad.

Is that what you're going to call your first born Mac?

[Soul Requiem]

Van der Sar
Neville
Evra
Ferdinand
Vidic
Carrick
Hargreaves
Fletcher
Scholes
Ronaldo
Giggs
Park
Nani
Rooney
Tevez
Saha


That is a ridiculously good squad.

Defensively that team is the best i've seen since the legendary AC Milan side of the early 90's and largely done with two ball playing midfielders as opposed to the ball winners who are now common in every team. Of course Fletcher and Hargreaves were deployed in such a role but largely Carrick and Scholes were the preferred pair. Wes Brown and John O'Shea provided more than able defensive cover, a lot to be said for squad players who go about their business without any fuss. When in full flow they could devastate teams on the break, the Rooney goal against Bolton being a prime example.

[beninho]

The United 08/09 team was beat pretty easily by Barcelona in the final. So good but not as good as Barcelona.

[Soul Requiem]

Beat them across two legs the year before without conceding so swings and roundabouts.

[superflyweight]

Beat them across two legs the year before without conceding so swings and roundabouts.

It's interesting because you could argue that the 2009 United team that played in the final was stronger than the 2008 team that beat Barcelona at Old Trafford -

United 2008 - Van der Sar, Hargreaves, Ferdinand, Brown, Evra, Park, Scholes, Carrick, Nani, Ronaldo, Tevez.

United 2009 - Van der Sar, O'Shea, Ferdinand, Vidić, Evra, Anderson, Carrick, Giggs, Park Ji-sung, Rooney, Ronaldo

Rooney and Vidic being the obvious upgrades and Ronaldo really starting  to hit his peak - Scholes perhaps being the obvious big miss.

Barcelona were undoubtedly stronger though with Pique and Busquets coming into the team, Messi was aother year closer to his peak and Guardiola had found a way to get Xavi and Iniesta controlling games in the opposition half:  

Barcelona 2008 - Valdes, Zambrotta, Puyol, Milito, Abidal, Toure, Messi, Xavi, Deco, Iniesta, Eto'o .

Barcelona 2009 -  Valdés, Puyol, Touré , Piqué, Sylvinho, Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Henry, Eto'o

By 2011, United had gone backwards and Barcelona had reached their peak.

[Soul Requiem]

In 2009 Fletcher was a near on certain starter in Europe and whilst he may not have tipped the balance in Man United's favour, the absence of both he and Scholes was significant however. Ferdinand in those 2008 matches was absolutely superb, his positioning and shepherding of that defensive unit was brilliant. The United team in general were showing signs of wear and tear after three long hard seasons; Ferdinand and Ronaldo would probably not have started were it a league game for instance.

Barcelona were a brilliant team, Eto'o was still a joy to watch and they were on the path to dominating possession in matches, in 2009 I felt that United were still the better overall team but by 2011 the balance had tipped entirely to Barca.

Either way both were great in their own ways. The early 90's Milan team was dull to watch but I think they were as close to unbeatable as team i've seen, tend to think they beat both United and Barca. The Ajax team of the mid 90's was pretty special also.

[JAS]

Anybody seen the docu-film The Three Kings (about Shankly, Busby & Stein)? I enjoyed it but must admit it never presented much of a revelation about HOW they all, coming from a similar background, were SO successful. It did touch on the fact that as 15 year olds they were all miners and that was where the value of teamwork was forged. They were all quite close as well (not like Revie/Clough). Cant help thinking as well that the main beneficiary of their collective wisdom was Fergie.

[superflyweight]

In 2009 Fletcher was a near on certain starter in Europe and whilst he may not have tipped the balance in Man United's favour, the absence of both he and Scholes was significant however. Ferdinand in those 2008 matches was absolutely superb, his positioning and shepherding of that defensive unit was brilliant. The United team in general were showing signs of wear and tear after three long hard seasons; Ferdinand and Ronaldo would probably not have started were it a league game for instance.

Barcelona were a brilliant team, Eto'o was still a joy to watch and they were on the path to dominating possession in matches, in 2009 I felt that United were still the better overall team but by 2011 the balance had tipped entirely to Barca.

Either way both were great in their own ways. The early 90's Milan team was dull to watch but I think they were as close to unbeatable as team i've seen, tend to think they beat both United and Barca. The Ajax team of the mid 90's was pretty special also.

The Milan team of the late '80's under Sacchi was more entertaining with peak Guillit and Van Basten than the one under Capello in the '90's, but they also did tend to strangle games.  It's shame that Capello didn't let his team of the leash more because when he did against Barcelona in '94 they were incredible.  Dejan Savicevic was a great player - an absolute genius and his goal in that '94 final is an underrated gem.  Think there's extended footage on YouTube of him against Man Utd at Old Trafford in the early 90's when he was playing for Red Star and he looks like he's from a different planet than anyone else on the pitch.

[Soul Requiem]

I don't know if i'm looking through rose tinted glasses but the 90's for me had the perfect balance of skill and physicality; the likes of Davids were still able to put their mark on a match while at the same time Litmanen or Kluivert could light up a match. Same with Desailly and Savicevic, just got the sense teams knew how to defend as well as attack, which sometimes led to entertaining low scorers. Nowadays everything is too weighted in favour of the attackers.

[superflyweight]

I'm a fan of laid back, almost lazy, playmakers and the '90's were a great time for them so I'm probably similar in looking back on them fondly. Don't see much of that type of player around now and the game is worse for it.

[superflyweight]

I don't know if i'm looking through rose tinted glasses but the 90's for me had the perfect balance of skill and physicality; the likes of Davids were still able to put their mark on a match while at the same time Litmanen or Kluivert could light up a match. Same with Desailly and Savicevic, just got the sense teams knew how to defend as well as attack, which sometimes led to entertaining low scorers. Nowadays everything is too weighted in favour of the attackers.

Think the '95 final between Milan and Ajax is a perfect example of that. It's a game that a lot of people think was boring, but I remember being engrossed by it because you knew that one mistake or one piece of attacking brilliance and the game was going to be over.

[Soul Requiem]

It was quite sad seeing that Ajax team ripped apart piece by piece, no one in the 95 final squad played for them beyond 1999 and most had left by the next season.

Van Gaals tactics were and still are revolutionary, he took total football and built upon it. Playing with one centre back would now be unthinkable but having 5/6 players who were pretty much interchangeable made it possible.

[JAS]

Utterly dreadful showing by Rangers in Europe last night, they allowed themselves to fall behind twice against the the team seeded only one above them in the group. Despite the win there’s a game to go and they still haven’t won the group after starting as 3rd seeds. Just so typical of the dire state of Scottish football. They now have to go and get a result in Poland that matches what Champions League failures Benfica can do in Belgium. If they can’t then in the last 32 they’ll be up against a top diddy team rather than a mediocre diddy team.... utterly dreadful.

[McLaren]

Must be a good time to be a Rangers fan.

If Gerard and Lampard keep this up how long will it be before the old problem of England can't have them at the same time crops up again?

[Eyetoldyouso]

Anybody seen the docu-film The Three Kings (about Shankly, Busby & Stein)? I enjoyed it but must admit it never presented much of a revelation about HOW they all, coming from a similar background, were SO successful. It did touch on the fact that as 15 year olds they were all miners and that was where the value of teamwork was forged. They were all quite close as well (not like Revie/Clough). Cant help thinking as well that the main beneficiary of their collective wisdom was Fergie.

Are you sure you were watching the real film not some ersatz copy. Sir Alex Ferguson was never a miner. As a Glaswegian born in the mid 1950s, I can say with some confidence that there weren't any mines in Govan or nearby when SAF was 15.

As for great club sides, let me throw the AJAX team of 1971-1974 into the discussion. I had the pleasure of seeing them live in Glasgow in 1971 and it was something very special. This was truly the start of total football with such wonderful players as Cruyff, Neeskens, Krol, Hulshoff and others and the great Rinus Michels as their coach.

[Eyetoldyouso]

Sorry my error - I just realised that you were talking about Stein, Busby & Shankly - must be a senior moment. Duh!!

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