Wales v England, Parc y Scarlets, 28th November 16:00

First topic message reminder :

England have been pretty comfortable so far clearly led by a set of forwards performing brilliantly. Breakdown, lineout, scrum, everything has been smooth and frankly dominant.

The backs continue to stutter looking for a bit of cohesion, perhaps unsurprisingly to an extent given there have been shuffles to selections. We've perhaps learnt that Furbank isnt good enough for international rugby and that having a winger play on the wing is sometimes a good thing. Obviously this means Jones will ignore that.

One guy completely set in stone is May who moved to joint second highest try scorer for England though. Always lightening but added so much to his game. Hes been relatively quiet this year but excellent yesterday. Quotes from Jones via  the bbc "The great thing is he is 30 and still improving,"
"There is no limit to where he can go. I don't think I have ever seen a player who is more professional in his preparation than Jonny. He is fast and elusive, at one stage it looked like he had spiders all over him."

He was always playing well when he got his england chance but obviously the best players continue to improve. You would normally say first name on the team sheet but theres about 5 of them at the moment.

Jones also said: 'We put ourselves in a good position to maybe go on and dominate. We didn't, but there is a lot more in us, which is pleasing," added Jones, who was named England head coach five years ago on Friday.

"Defence was pretty good but we are disappointed with the try at the end. We'd have liked to have a clean sheet, as they say in football, but we are improving. I particularly liked the ferocity of our ruck defence today."

"Wales is a massive game," added Jones. "If they have one game a year to save their season, it is against England. There is intense rivalry, the Scarlets' ground is an open one, so the elements will affect the game. It will be tough and we will pick our best 23 again."

Seems to me hes also a touch annoyed we didnt add more to the scoreboard and nil Ireland. Great defence clearly in the 2nd half but we struggled for field possession. The last sentence for me could be a bit misleading as it suggests the same team and bench for Wales, cant help but feel there'll be 2 or 3 changes though.


Again from the beeb it looks like Wales have a few injuries and doubts for the game: Tipuric was forced off the field in the second half, while Wales full-back Liam Williams also left the field with 15 stitches in his mouth after a stray boot but should be fit to face England. Wing Johnny McNicholl also departed with a rib cartilage issue.

Bath number eight Taulupe Faletau will be fit after recovering from injury, while Cardiff Blues back-rower Josh Navidi is battling to be in contention after missing the autumn programme so far with his own concussion issues.

Ross Moriarty is sidelined with an ankle problem.

Dragons back-rower Aaron Wainwright was handed the man-of-the-match accolade against Georgia after an impressive performance at number eight with Pivac believing this should be his long-term position.

"I personally like him at eight," added Pivac.

"I prefer him at eight to six. He gets his hands on the ball, he has very good acceleration out of the boot.

"You saw some of those skills tonight and I like him in that position."

Wales have an outside centre void to fill missing against England with Jonathan Davies set to miss the game with a knee problem. Johnny Williams impressed at inside centre on his debut.'

All set for a comfortable Wales win then.


Teams

Wales

TBC


England

Daly; Joseph, Slade, Farrell, May; Ford, Youngs; M Vunipola, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Launchbury, Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Stuart, Hill, Earl, Willis, Robson, Watson

doctor_grey wrote:If England play like this against France, Les Bleus will turn England into tiny little bits of brie.  

Ah im not sure Doc

Underhill really stood up with Itoje and Curry having slightly quieter but still solid games. A deserved MOM.

A great win for England. You have to Wales put a good per put performance in to day,put England under pressure, did mnot allow England the kind of space to really get in to open spaces.

LRZ did not see much of the ball would of like to see gus pace against MAY,
Wales set piece let them down as well.

doctor_grey wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:I think Farrell and Jones are holding England back.

We need to see some passion and flare

And Ford.

And mostly youngs.

doctor_grey wrote:If England play like this against France, Les Bleus will turn England into tiny little bits of brie.  

Not so sure. England defense is fantastic and they are probably better set for playing against France than a team like Wales, who have been organised and muscular in defense but otherwise poor.

But England are not looking like world beaters at the moment

doctor_grey wrote:If England play like this against France, Les Bleus will turn England into tiny little bits of brie.

Cant see it myself. England are playing well within themselves. During world cups theres always talk about focusing on that one performance and building to it. Think england are doing it with France. I can see a pretty comfortable flashy win next week.

Butbthey dont have to be world beaters at the moment...just win...

GeordieFalcon wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:If England play like this against France, Les Bleus will turn England into tiny little bits of brie.  

Ah im not sure Doc

Ntamack's fitness will be important. Dupont and Ntamack are so good that if England try to 'play without the ball' but kick poorly and give away penalties as they did today I think France will capitalise. Jalibert is a good 10 but not as clinical as Ntamack.

The big England tight five against the massive France tight five will once again be a massive arm wrestle for the gainline.

I might be inclined to start Genge and Stuart against France. .

That was a boring display by both sides. It looks like England are keeping their powder dry and just jabbing away until the final. We'll that's what I hope is happening or it could be that international rugby is now very stodgy . Wales were much better than last outings but never looked threatening. They have to sort the scrum as its killing the game.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:I think Farrell and Jones are holding England back.

We need to see some passion and flare

And Ford.

And mostly youngs.

Who would you replace Youngs with out of interest 7.5?

Robson convinces me even less than Care did to be honest.

Mitchell I think is talented but also very raw having only just taken over from Reinach.

Another comfortable win, but nothing special. Not quite clicking yet, but very dominant. Probably left 15 points on the field today.

To be honest, I think England will smash France.

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:I think Farrell and Jones are holding England back.

We need to see some passion and flare

And Ford.

And mostly youngs.

Who would you replace Youngs with out of interest 7.5?

Robson convinces me even less than Care did to be honest.

Mitchell I think is talented but also very raw having only just taken over from Reinach.

I mean that's the issue with the current squad. Spencer was the obvious guy to step into these games with Mitchell. Robson wouldn't be my ideal but at present youngs is just so average its painful.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I might be inclined to start Genge and Stuart against France. .

If Genge doesn’t get cited and banned.

RiscaGame wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I might be inclined to start Genge and Stuart against France. .

If Genge doesn’t get cited and banned.

What for Risca?

I was always feel that a confident coach does not go after the ref

Pivac is clearly under pressure and is looking to deflect it elsewhere. That was a poor call by Poite, but hard to say it may have effected the result so early in a game. England were very dominant and should really have won by a lot more.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:I think Farrell and Jones are holding England back.

We need to see some passion and flare

And Ford.

And mostly youngs.

Who would you replace Youngs with out of interest 7.5?

Robson convinces me even less than Care did to be honest.

Mitchell I think is talented but also very raw having only just taken over from Reinach.

I mean that's the issue with the current squad. Spencer was the obvious guy to step into these games with Mitchell. Robson wouldn't be my ideal but at present youngs is just so average its painful.

Spencer is just an odd one. He was dropped into the cold after some solid performances for England. Also left Sarries on a permanent deal rather than on loan like their other strong young EQP players - Singleton, Isiekwe, Earl, Malins, Lozowski. Part of me wonders if there's a story about attitude/application in training or something similar. His stye of play suits the England game plan and he's young enough to keep developing. A strange one.

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:I think Farrell and Jones are holding England back.

We need to see some passion and flare

And Ford.

And mostly youngs.

Who would you replace Youngs with out of interest 7.5?

Robson convinces me even less than Care did to be honest.

Mitchell I think is talented but also very raw having only just taken over from Reinach.

Having watched Reinach at Saints, it is clear how good he is. Part of Saints fall off the proverbial cliff is due to the loss of Reinach. None of the English 9s have the same combination of speed of the pass off the base and awareness. And he is a fast runner, too. Mitchell might get there, but has a long way to go. Didn't impose himself on the match against Quins today, nor did he last week either.
Youngs is long in the tooth for a Rugby player, but not sure who behind him is an improvement or even a reasonable change of pace. I like Robson, but he is not that much different. Certainly need something different there, which is not so much an indictment of Youngs, but shows the need for young'uns coming up and staking a place, such as England have in the back row.

king_carlos wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I might be inclined to start Genge and Stuart against France. .

If Genge doesn’t get cited and banned.

What for Risca?

Haha. He won’t, however it would appear he did throw his head at Francis, in that scrum where they had a bit of a dust up.

Wales got it up for this one but ultimately they are very much in a rebuilding stage. Wasn't a bad performance for them seeing as it was a bad game all round.

Refs need to stand up to Alun Winge Jones. Every decision was being questioned, enough is enough.

Wales tried hard to create some havoc and their lineout survived in the second half by basically throwing down the welsh line of players, which was a bit of a joke.
Biggar probably had a fair point on the basis he landed from his jump on Underhill's stationary shoulder and subsequently lost the ball with an English try as the eventual result.
At no point did Wales really look like scoring a try other than perhaps from another English mistake. The english attack also looked disjointed and never worked an overlap. Farrell missed three kicks and another eight points would have perhaps made a better representation to the score.
A disappointing game but the result was never in doubt.

BigGee wrote:I was always feel that a confident coach does not go after the ref

Pivac is clearly under pressure and is looking to deflect it elsewhere. That was a poor call by Poite, but hard to say it may have effected the result so early in a game. England were very dominant and should really have won by a lot more.

Yeah there were a lot of mistakes through out the match, not a lot of continuity at times. The Wales attack looks a little lost at sea at the moment, no one looks that comfortable in what they're trying to do. England seemed more organised in attack but they didn't take their chances and some of their plays were quite easy to read as the timing was off.

So England vs France likely now, Ireland vs Scotland and Italy vs Wales.

I have to be honest, landing on somebody’s stationary shoulder is a great description for taking a man in the air

Before Wales won the game last week to stop the rut of losses, many Welsh fans was saying Pivac must go and go now.

Is the way Wales are playing at the moment, totally down to the coach? How much of the way Wales are playing is actually down to the players? should the captain also take some responsability for the style pf play?

RiscaGame wrote:I have to be honest, landing on somebody’s stationary shoulder is a great description for taking a man in the air

That's why I pointed it out, but Underhill caught Biggar rather than tackle him - not sure any player could have got out the way in that split second but a penalty nonetheless.

BigGee wrote:I was always feel that a confident coach does not go after the ref

Pivac is clearly under pressure and is looking to deflect it elsewhere. That was a poor call by Poite, but hard to say it may have effected the result so early in a game. England were very dominant and should really have won by a lot more.

I get it to a point. I’ve only seen a transcript of an interview, but it seems he’s responding directly to questions asked? He’s right to highlight he isn’t happy with the Daly hit and the Biggar taken in the air shout. This is the second week in a row that the TMO has turned a blind eye to a shoulder to head, for a start. Unless there’s more scrutiny to decisions made, things won’t change. There’s no pressure on mistakes, as they’re private discussions and they’re not really scrutinised.

RiscaGame wrote:

BigGee wrote:I was always feel that a confident coach does not go after the ref

Pivac is clearly under pressure and is looking to deflect it elsewhere. That was a poor call by Poite, but hard to say it may have effected the result so early in a game. England were very dominant and should really have won by a lot more.

I get it to a point. I’ve only seen a transcript of an interview, but it seems he’s responding directly to questions asked? He’s right to highlight he isn’t happy with the Daly hit and the Biggar taken in the air shout. This is the second week in a row that the TMO has turned a blind eye to a shoulder to head, for a start. Unless there’s more scrutiny to decisions made, things won’t change. There’s no pressure on mistakes, as they’re private discussions and they’re not really scrutinised.

Didn't see his comments are they about the daly tackle on Adams near the touchline first half?

It looks like it. Whether you think it’s a card or whatever (I’d suggest yellow personally), it didn’t even get looked at.

Eng V Fra a bit like Saracens and Exeter against French clubs in Europe...as Englishman obviously want them to do well, but as lovers of rugby we really don't mind seeing them lose to some more expansive and risk taking flair.

Eng are so powerful and so dull and if we beat Fra it might just reinforce this dullness for the next few years. Hoping that EJ and the coaches have something a bit more up their sleeve for next week. Otherwise I don't really mind seeing Fra win.

RiscaGame wrote:It looks like it. Whether you think it’s a card or whatever (I’d suggest yellow personally), it didn’t even get looked at.

I don't even think it's a yellow card myself.

He brought both arms up to wrap, it's not even a penalty!

Recwatcher16 wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:I have to be honest, landing on somebody’s stationary shoulder is a great description for taking a man in the air

That's why I pointed it out, but Underhill caught Biggar rather than tackle him - not sure any player could have got out the way in that split second but a penalty nonetheless.

I would not have complained with it being penalised, but by the letter of the law Underhill was ok. He was stationary before contact, Biggar had misjudged it and jumped forward further than he went up and effectively jumped into a stationary man who ended up catching him more than anything - do anything else and both players risked injury.

The Daly challenge live I thought was a problem, in slow mo I see he is not high and is wrapping both arms. TMO looked at it and told ref it was ok (based on hearing the ref mike).

I am not willing to go back and re-read this thred, but I do hope that some of teh English fans who were suggesting this would be a cake walk have come back and eaten some humble pie.

You saying England will simply bore the French to sleep? They certainly tried to do it to us today. Except for being annoyed (ie. p**sed off) every time they kicked, which was every 30 seconds..........

Hey Doc, long time no see. Are you on the Covid front line. Sorry about Saints form recently.

Reminds me 1990....Eng lost the GS decider to Scotland having played lovely rugby. Then they won back to back GSs palying boring zero risk stuff. Echos of that post our RWC final loss.

Doc..you've comeback very angry...relax...England won ...playing fairly poorly..in a meaningless cup.

Why is Dan Biggar always the centre of attention of every game...

BamBam wrote:He brought both arms up to wrap, it's not even a penalty!

I didn’t hear that the TMO reviewed it, but I think it requires more than that, knowing the TMO’s growing reputation. The rabbit in the headlights should’ve had a look at it for me. The reason I think it’s probably okay, is I’m trusting a touch judge looked at it close up and saw nothing. It’s also why I suggest yellow if anything at all.

Does “wrapping your arms” matter, if you connect with a chin? That’s a genuine question.

LondonTiger wrote:I am not willing to go back and re-read this thred, but I do hope that some of teh English fans who were suggesting this would be a cake walk have come back and eaten some humble pie.

Ah yeah, the two usual suspects are bound to.

RiscaGame wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:I am not willing to go back and re-read this thred, but I do hope that some of teh English fans who were suggesting this would be a cake walk have come back and eaten some humble pie.

Ah yeah, the two usual suspects are bound to.

Can't see why, based on England's performances this autumn, anyone would think this would be easy. England were better, but just a step over mediocre against Italy, Georgia, and Ireland. Why would this be any different? Even when Wales are not playing up to snuff, they should still be equal or more likely better than Italy or Georgia.

And, by the way, no way this was a piece of cake: I was eating my wife's apple crumb pie, which was significantly better than how England played............

RiscaGame wrote:

BamBam wrote:He brought both arms up to wrap, it's not even a penalty!

Does “wrapping your arms” matter, if you connect with a chin? That’s a genuine question.

I did similar to LT, was concerned it was a shoulder charge without any arms watching it live but the slow mo showed a clear attempt to wrap the arms. As a result I didn't even notice whether there was a problem with shoulder to the chin.

I don't know the rule either - if the arms are wrapped around the upper chest like so many tackles are, surely there has to be some contact to the chin?

It’s just poor trolling, so not a problem. I’ll just ignore both, but I just feel it shouldn’t come to that on here. I’m sure most English people thought Wales would step up today, but ultimately get overpowered/outclassed.

BamBam wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:

BamBam wrote:He brought both arms up to wrap, it's not even a penalty!

Does “wrapping your arms” matter, if you connect with a chin? That’s a genuine question.

I did similar to LT, was concerned it was a shoulder charge without any arms watching it live but the slow mo showed a clear attempt to wrap the arms. As a result I didn't even notice whether there was a problem with shoulder to the chin.

I don't know the rule either - if the arms are wrapped around the upper chest like so many tackles are, surely there has to be some contact to the chin?

This is why I would go yellow as he goes chest height and catches Adams on the chin, so it’s not shoulder direct to head. But as there is contact, it has to be penalised in some way and I believe yellow is fair.

RiscaGame wrote:

BamBam wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:

BamBam wrote:He brought both arms up to wrap, it's not even a penalty!

Does “wrapping your arms” matter, if you connect with a chin? That’s a genuine question.

I did similar to LT, was concerned it was a shoulder charge without any arms watching it live but the slow mo showed a clear attempt to wrap the arms. As a result I didn't even notice whether there was a problem with shoulder to the chin.

I don't know the rule either - if the arms are wrapped around the upper chest like so many tackles are, surely there has to be some contact to the chin?

This is why I would go yellow as he goes chest height and catches Adams on the chin, so it’s not shoulder direct to head. But as there is contact, it has to be penalised in some way and I believe yellow is fair.

So the same as the numerous ruck clearouts through any match?

RiscaGame wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:I am not willing to go back and re-read this thred, but I do hope that some of teh English fans who were suggesting this would be a cake walk have come back and eaten some humble pie.

Ah yeah, the two usual suspects are bound to.

To be fair it should have been, and there was plenty of welsh fans after the last game declaring that Wales were going to get humped!

England did not play well at all with the ball in hand, and Farrell had one of his worst games with the boot. They can and should have performed a lot better. There were a couple of glimpses, like their first try, which showed what they are capable of when they execute. Do feel Wales are capable of producing more than just trying to out smash England too, but they butchered quite a lot trying to chase the game and make things happen. The young 10 running horizontally across the pitch till he tripped himself up perhaps the enduring image of both teams attempts to play.

Neither teams going to be too happy on that showing, although Englands pack will be slapping each others bottoms in the shower no doubt.

Still waiting to see England look like they are flowing for at least 60 of the 80 minutes. Theres lots of signs of whats possible, great set piece and solid defence (only one try that really came from opposition play so far this winter) has been enough to carry them through against some mediocre opposition so far this Autumn.

Nothing wrong with the Daly tackle...getting silly now

Soul Requiem wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:

BamBam wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:

BamBam wrote:He brought both arms up to wrap, it's not even a penalty!

Does “wrapping your arms” matter, if you connect with a chin? That’s a genuine question.

I did similar to LT, was concerned it was a shoulder charge without any arms watching it live but the slow mo showed a clear attempt to wrap the arms. As a result I didn't even notice whether there was a problem with shoulder to the chin.

I don't know the rule either - if the arms are wrapped around the upper chest like so many tackles are, surely there has to be some contact to the chin?

This is why I would go yellow as he goes chest height and catches Adams on the chin, so it’s not shoulder direct to head. But as there is contact, it has to be penalised in some way and I believe yellow is fair.

So the same as the numerous ruck clearouts through any match?

Also didnt look at all like he connected with the chin, the chaps neck just snapped back in contact. Pivac didnt even mention it in his post game moan, it was total non event.

Soul Requiem wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:

BamBam wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:

BamBam wrote:He brought both arms up to wrap, it's not even a penalty!

Does “wrapping your arms” matter, if you connect with a chin? That’s a genuine question.

I did similar to LT, was concerned it was a shoulder charge without any arms watching it live but the slow mo showed a clear attempt to wrap the arms. As a result I didn't even notice whether there was a problem with shoulder to the chin.

I don't know the rule either - if the arms are wrapped around the upper chest like so many tackles are, surely there has to be some contact to the chin?

This is why I would go yellow as he goes chest height and catches Adams on the chin, so it’s not shoulder direct to head. But as there is contact, it has to be penalised in some way and I believe yellow is fair.

So the same as the numerous ruck clearouts through any match?

Disagree there. I don’t think you can compare a ruck clear out to that.

Anyway, it’s moot. It won’t get cited probably and if it does, it won’t result in a ban as it will be yellow at worst. I don’t agree with Wales apparently complaining about the ref either, as it’s moot. Whatever comes of today, doesn’t affect Wales’ next game. What they should do is what Eddie did before the Ireland game and highlight issues like Porter’s scrummaging. That’s the way to do it.

I’m just discussing things and trying to gauge genuine opinions.

Whatever happened with cards etc, England would’ve ultimately overpowered us and won with a bit to spare. So, I’m not going to draw these discussions out further now and detract from a comfortable England win, which should have been greater than what it was.

Gooseberry wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:

BamBam wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:

BamBam wrote:He brought both arms up to wrap, it's not even a penalty!

Does “wrapping your arms” matter, if you connect with a chin? That’s a genuine question.

I did similar to LT, was concerned it was a shoulder charge without any arms watching it live but the slow mo showed a clear attempt to wrap the arms. As a result I didn't even notice whether there was a problem with shoulder to the chin.

I don't know the rule either - if the arms are wrapped around the upper chest like so many tackles are, surely there has to be some contact to the chin?

This is why I would go yellow as he goes chest height and catches Adams on the chin, so it’s not shoulder direct to head. But as there is contact, it has to be penalised in some way and I believe yellow is fair.

So the same as the numerous ruck clearouts through any match?

Also didnt look at all like he connected with the chin, the chaps neck just snapped back in contact. Pivac didnt even mention it in his post game moan, it was total non event.

He did mention it

Daly tackle?

"The question is whether he used an arm in the tackle.

"I'd have to have a good look at that to say."