Wales v England, Parc y Scarlets, 28th November 16:00

First topic message reminder :

England have been pretty comfortable so far clearly led by a set of forwards performing brilliantly. Breakdown, lineout, scrum, everything has been smooth and frankly dominant.

The backs continue to stutter looking for a bit of cohesion, perhaps unsurprisingly to an extent given there have been shuffles to selections. We've perhaps learnt that Furbank isnt good enough for international rugby and that having a winger play on the wing is sometimes a good thing. Obviously this means Jones will ignore that.

One guy completely set in stone is May who moved to joint second highest try scorer for England though. Always lightening but added so much to his game. Hes been relatively quiet this year but excellent yesterday. Quotes from Jones via  the bbc "The great thing is he is 30 and still improving,"
"There is no limit to where he can go. I don't think I have ever seen a player who is more professional in his preparation than Jonny. He is fast and elusive, at one stage it looked like he had spiders all over him."

He was always playing well when he got his england chance but obviously the best players continue to improve. You would normally say first name on the team sheet but theres about 5 of them at the moment.

Jones also said: 'We put ourselves in a good position to maybe go on and dominate. We didn't, but there is a lot more in us, which is pleasing," added Jones, who was named England head coach five years ago on Friday.

"Defence was pretty good but we are disappointed with the try at the end. We'd have liked to have a clean sheet, as they say in football, but we are improving. I particularly liked the ferocity of our ruck defence today."

"Wales is a massive game," added Jones. "If they have one game a year to save their season, it is against England. There is intense rivalry, the Scarlets' ground is an open one, so the elements will affect the game. It will be tough and we will pick our best 23 again."

Seems to me hes also a touch annoyed we didnt add more to the scoreboard and nil Ireland. Great defence clearly in the 2nd half but we struggled for field possession. The last sentence for me could be a bit misleading as it suggests the same team and bench for Wales, cant help but feel there'll be 2 or 3 changes though.


Again from the beeb it looks like Wales have a few injuries and doubts for the game: Tipuric was forced off the field in the second half, while Wales full-back Liam Williams also left the field with 15 stitches in his mouth after a stray boot but should be fit to face England. Wing Johnny McNicholl also departed with a rib cartilage issue.

Bath number eight Taulupe Faletau will be fit after recovering from injury, while Cardiff Blues back-rower Josh Navidi is battling to be in contention after missing the autumn programme so far with his own concussion issues.

Ross Moriarty is sidelined with an ankle problem.

Dragons back-rower Aaron Wainwright was handed the man-of-the-match accolade against Georgia after an impressive performance at number eight with Pivac believing this should be his long-term position.

"I personally like him at eight," added Pivac.

"I prefer him at eight to six. He gets his hands on the ball, he has very good acceleration out of the boot.

"You saw some of those skills tonight and I like him in that position."

Wales have an outside centre void to fill missing against England with Jonathan Davies set to miss the game with a knee problem. Johnny Williams impressed at inside centre on his debut.'

All set for a comfortable Wales win then.


Teams

Wales

TBC


England

Daly; Joseph, Slade, Farrell, May; Ford, Youngs; M Vunipola, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Launchbury, Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Stuart, Hill, Earl, Willis, Robson, Watson

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Old Man wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Itoje just looks more and more the premier lock in the world. Helped by Rettalick being seen so rarely over the last few years granted. Even I'm pleasantly surprised by how well his partnership with Launchbury is going though. Seem to compliment each other really well and the latter seems to be adding lineouts to his game at the top level. I'm hoping what we're seeing means no more locks at blind side.

As a combination the South African locks as a squad has no equal currently, with Etzebeth, de Jager, Mostert and Snyman the quality between the starting pair and subbing pair does not drop. You have line out prowess, work rate, physicality mobility and ball carrying with great ball skills.

Disagree. But that's life.

OK

LondonTiger wrote:The Farrell place is a quandary. He is the captain and hugely valued by Eddie. At the same time many fans look at him and feel he is a hindrance to the team.

Last week a NZ Rugby podcast were the latest to state Farrell is world class:
https://www.rugbydump.com/news/new-zealand-rugby-pod-admit-owen-farrell-is-world-class/

This follows Martin Johnson making the same assertion last year:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/rugby-union/50252255

And the Sydney Morning Herald in 2018:
https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-union/farrell-is-the-world-class-no-10-the-wallabies-need-to-learn-from-20181123-p50hu3.html


I do not see him as a World Class 12, while the skills he brings to the table at 10 are the more utilitarian ones, but valuable none the less. I am fine with Farrell being selected at 10 but less so at 12. Just feel that Eddie should pick Ford or Farrell and not shoe-horn both in. Moving the captaincy to Itoje would make it easier to switch them around as needed.

Farrell looks knackered to my eye. Between the World Cup, straight into the Sarries debacle, then covid layoff, now captaining England again in what could be a non-stop season. I think a short stint with a different set-up could do Faz the world of good even if it meant him missing the start of the Six Nations to manage his game time before the Lions tour.

He's a quality player despite having weaknesses as almost all do. He has always seemed very highly rated by players who play with and against which usually says a lot. Paul O'Connell in 2013 stating Farrell was driving the team round the park in an early warm-up game and that others needed to raise the bar to there said a lot of his onfield leadership at only 22.

His goal kicking wavering over the last few weeks is unusual. His playmaking has gone through ups and downs but kicking from the tee is usually rock solid in important games.

I rate Ford very highly too but his performance against Wales hardly demands selection after Faz's form has dropped. A good platform and a match heavy on territorial kicking should have suited Ford but he didn't perform anywhere near his best.

Unsurprisingly no citing for Daly or Genge.

No foul play hence why there is no Citing.

lostinwales wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:Also, to keep this on topic, I don't think Itoje's had a great game v Wales since 2016. Each time he's played, AWJ has got the better of him, and that was the same again at the weekend - AWJ outplayed Itoje. That's not exactly the sole barometer for judging just how good or bad he is but it reveals something; I don't 'fear' Itoje in the same way as coming up against some English players you just know they're going to be unplayable at times. That might almost entirely be down to AWJ nullifying them as there's a nice little love:hate rivalry there that has been forged in the Lions tour as well but Itoje hasn't been impressive v Wales since the first time he played them.

That is an opinion that you won't be able to back up with evidence. On the other hand there is that old video out there of Itoje outjumping AWJ unaided when AWJ was being lifted.

Look I do get the 'he's a totem for one team but unrated outside' thing. I really do. The best recent English example was Mike Brown. But Itoje is the real deal and one of the finest England rugby players of the modern era, not just at lock. I remember reading the Australian rugby forums when we went out there and beat them 3-0. They really disliked all of the shouting (winds up everyone) but all respected the player.

Even Wales Online has him down as the 'finest player in the Northern Hemisphere'

Would agree with you on Itoje. There is no reason not to rate him as one of the best locks in the world, everyone I come across seems to also rate Itoje that highly. As for AWJ well he’s done it all and doesn’t need to prove anything to Barnes or any other shmuck. He never stops be he can’t go on forever, that’s the only reason some fans want him to be phased out.

TightHEAD wrote:No foul play hence why there is no Citing.

Cant believe Biggar was let off scott free for deliberating jumping into players like that

king_carlos wrote:I rate Ford very highly too but his performance against Wales hardly demands selection after Faz's form has dropped. A good platform and a match heavy on territorial kicking should have suited Ford but he didn't perform anywhere near his best.

You have to give Ford something to work with. Our backs showed infinitely more with him at 10 than Farrell at 10 and that's without any options for him to use. Just one player to straighten the line and stop the opposition defence drifting would give him the ability to cause far more damage.

Gooseberry wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:No foul play hence why there is no Citing.

Cant believe Biggar was let off scott free for deliberating jumping into players like that

That was Sir's view at the time. The Welsh defender blocking Underhill and then dodging out the way as Biggar jumps in order to avoid contact.

Players should only be allowed to jump straight up. Jumping forward 2 or 3 metres with one foot forward at chest height is asking for trouble. the player who is moving forward is initiating contact. if you're still and that player goes into you when they're in the air - they give away the penalty and possibly more if their feet are high.

Its a difficult one to police with the current techniques, any change to the rule would probably impact player safety so on balance its probably right at the moment, even if there are times when the chasing team will be penalised.

I don't think there's a great deal that Underhill could have done differently, he realised that Biggar was jumping into him and made sure there was as little contact as possible. Probably a penalty by the letter of the law book but not the kind I want to see given.

But if i jumped straight up and down and someone else did, we shouldn't hit each other with any force that could cause injury - unless one of is going forward with momentum.

when a player catches a ball in their own 22 from a kick and no one is around them, they dont jump forward with their legs/ feet up. they catch it standing still. the jumping forward technique is done around players, to try to re-gather. Its looking to draw a penalty, but maybe they should be the ones to be penalised.

Perhaps if Underhill had tried to move or simply stood there I'd be more inclined to say it wasnt a foul. He did wrap his arms though. For me it should have been a penalty to Wales.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Perhaps if Underhill had tried to move or simply stood there I'd be more inclined to say it wasnt a foul. He did wrap his arms though. For me it should have been a penalty to Wales.

Tbh I actually feel that by "catching" Biggar he prevented both of them getting hurt. Poite did make a mistake as he states Biggar was not in the air, despite the TMO telling him he was. However as Underhill stops moving forward before Biggar leaves the ground I believe the law states it can only ever be a penalty against Biggar - though that would also be ridiculous.

I do believe Biggar new what he was doing, and was hoping to gain a penalty from jumping directly in to underhill. If you look at it Underhill did not jump into Biggar underhill never got off the ground and actually caught Biggar as he was coming down. From which a great try was scored.

majesticimperialman wrote:I do believe Biggar new what he was doing, and was hoping to gain a penalty from jumping directly in to underhill. If you look at it Underhill did not jump into Biggar underhill never got off the ground and actually caught Biggar as he was coming down. From which a great try was scored.

Clearly not the case and I was joking with the post that kicked all this off!

Do feel this is one of those cases where had he been penalised none would've criticised the refs but you can certainly look at is not the sort of thing that the law was designed to prevent or to penalise. Pivacs ire seemed more directed at Poites overuling of the TMO without looking at the screen than the actual call or the incident.

In general it did look like Poite was trying to speed the game up and avoid stoppages, which as fans we all in theory want. Its good to see the scope creep of TMOs has been addressed a bit this year and we arent seeing every try subject to a review panel. Even the Wales one was dealt with pretty quickly and decisively.

With the scrum it makes a change being an England fan to be on the right end of Poite. He is whistle happy unless the balls available to the attacking side and always seems to take the view he'd rather get them over and done with whether that's a penalty or a quick ball. I guess we could all argue all day and find a reason why every scrum was a penalty to both teams, but it was pretty evident on the few that actually did get a contest that England had the better of the Welsh pack, and the penalties were not all one way. So as much as the scrum is a ridiculous lottery and I can understand the frustration with apparent inconsistency don't feel it was vastly unjust or that Wales were somehow mugged off there.

The potential citing was of course for the Daly tackle, feels like that was a TV invention as an issue. The player was a bit miffed at the time, and wouldve felt that he was shoulder charged, but never a suggestion it was high and not something Pivac had picked up on so really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone its gone further despite the media looking for some drama to stoke emotion into what was a pretty flat game for both sides.

There is the Genge incident too - which seems to have been a non event apart from a couple of difficult camera angles.

He shouldve been cited for that haircut

Just seen that clear out again on Daly which did his ankle. Brutal. And completely illegal.

Gooseberry wrote:He shouldve been cited for that haircut

Will Stuart first though surely. (I did liken Genge's hair and tache to the male stars of 80s German porno)

Will Stuart's is so bad it's almost admirable. Almost.

At least with November being over the caterpillars will disappear from the upper lip of Daly / May etc all

LondonTiger wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:He shouldve been cited for that haircut

Will Stuart first though surely. (I did liken Genge's hair and tache to the male stars of 80s German porno)

Any idea where we can find some source material to :ahem: cross reference that...? 

king_carlos wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:He shouldve been cited for that haircut

Will Stuart first though surely. (I did liken Genge's hair and tache to the male stars of 80s German porno)

Any idea where we can find some source material to :ahem: cross reference that...? 

Well at least he knows there can be another career for him in the "speciality sausage" market if the propping doesn't work out long term. He's got one fan already by the sound of it.

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Perhaps if Underhill had tried to move or simply stood there I'd be more inclined to say it wasnt a foul. He did wrap his arms though. For me it should have been a penalty to Wales.

Tbh I actually feel that by "catching" Biggar he prevented both of them getting hurt. Poite did make a mistake as he states Biggar was not in the air, despite the TMO telling him he was. However as Underhill stops moving forward before Biggar leaves the ground I believe the law states it can only ever be a penalty against Biggar - though that would also be ridiculous.

Poite didn't even say that though - he said it was not a tackle in the air because Biggar jumped into the tackle. It's marginal, but I think it was the right call and clearly so did the citing commissioner.

The tackle in the air law is designed to protect a jumper going for the ball from being taken out by a player recklessly or intentionally taking their space. It's not designed to award penalties to a player jumping boot first into the path of another player (and jumping into the tackle is arguably dangerous play) - however much certain teams have trained to use it that way. The interpretation has leaned heavily in favour of the jumper since the Alex Goode / Jared Payne incident a few years ago, but it's probably gone too far and this starts to get things back in balance.

There was an incident back in 2016 or so where IIRC Faletau had to jump for an overhead pass and made contact with an England player who was already set for the tackle - possibly Billy V - before he landed. He was awarded a penalty. I think it might have been Poite refereeing that day, and he was very apologetic about awarding it. He's one of the most technically minded refs and it looks to me as if he has had a think about what the laws intend and therefore what the correct interpretation is in circumstances like that.

LondonTiger wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:He shouldve been cited for that haircut

Will Stuart first though surely. (I did liken Genge's hair and tache to the male stars of 80s German porno)

When i saw this i was trying to think who you was on about, then it dawned on me Burt Reynolds.

majesticimperialman wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:He shouldve been cited for that haircut

Will Stuart first though surely. (I did liken Genge's hair and tache to the male stars of 80s German porno)

When i saw this i was trying to think who you was on about, then it dawned on me  Burt Reynolds.

Johnny May Freddy Mercury?

Old Man wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Itoje just looks more and more the premier lock in the world. Helped by Rettalick being seen so rarely over the last few years granted. Even I'm pleasantly surprised by how well his partnership with Launchbury is going though. Seem to compliment each other really well and the latter seems to be adding lineouts to his game at the top level. I'm hoping what we're seeing means no more locks at blind side.

As a combination the South African locks as a squad has no equal currently, with Etzebeth, de Jager, Mostert and Snyman the quality between the starting pair and subbing pair does not drop. You have line out prowess, work rate, physicality mobility and ball carrying with great ball skills.

I don't think you're too far wrong with this assumption, although it's been a long time since any of them have showed this on the international stage for obvious reasons. I'm also not sure I'd throw Lood in at the top bracket, although he is very good.

Etzebeth is a funny one. When he broke onto the scene, he was such a force with unlimited potential it seemed. He then went really off the boil, seemingly out looking for a scrap rather than focusing on his game. The last few years, he's really came back at another level and is certainly in the top 3 locks around currently. I would say his lineout work and physicality are perhaps better than Itoje's, but I'd have Itoje marginally ahead in most other aspects. Itoje is just operating on another level, the standout lock in the game right now.

Poorfour wrote:There was an incident back in 2016 or so where IIRC Faletau had to jump for an overhead pass and made contact with an England player who was already set for the tackle - possibly Billy V - before he landed. He was awarded a penalty. I think it might have been Poite refereeing that day, and he was very apologetic about awarding it. He's one of the most technically minded refs and it looks to me as if he has had a think about what the laws intend and therefore what the correct interpretation is in circumstances like that.

Think it was 2014 and it was Hartley who gave away if its the same one I am thinking of. Think Hartley gave away 3 out of the 6 penalties Wales scored for their 18 points that day.

Poorfour wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Perhaps if Underhill had tried to move or simply stood there I'd be more inclined to say it wasnt a foul. He did wrap his arms though. For me it should have been a penalty to Wales.

Tbh I actually feel that by "catching" Biggar he prevented both of them getting hurt. Poite did make a mistake as he states Biggar was not in the air, despite the TMO telling him he was. However as Underhill stops moving forward before Biggar leaves the ground I believe the law states it can only ever be a penalty against Biggar - though that would also be ridiculous.

Poite didn't even say that though - he said it was not a tackle in the air because Biggar jumped into the tackle. It's marginal, but I think it was the right call and clearly so did the citing commissioner.

The tackle in the air law is designed to protect a jumper going for the ball from being taken out by a player recklessly or intentionally taking their space. It's not designed to award penalties to a player jumping boot first into the path of another player (and jumping into the tackle is arguably dangerous play) - however much certain teams have trained to use it that way. The interpretation has leaned heavily in favour of the jumper since the Alex Goode / Jared Payne incident a few years ago, but it's probably gone too far and this starts to get things back in balance.

There was an incident back in 2016 or so where IIRC Faletau had to jump for an overhead pass and made contact with an England player who was already set for the tackle - possibly Billy V - before he landed. He was awarded a penalty. I think it might have been Poite refereeing that day, and he was very apologetic about awarding it. He's one of the most technically minded refs and it looks to me as if he has had a think about what the laws intend and therefore what the correct interpretation is in circumstances like that.

I know Dylan Hartley was penalised for this about then, but may have been a different incident.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Old Man wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Itoje just looks more and more the premier lock in the world. Helped by Rettalick being seen so rarely over the last few years granted. Even I'm pleasantly surprised by how well his partnership with Launchbury is going though. Seem to compliment each other really well and the latter seems to be adding lineouts to his game at the top level. I'm hoping what we're seeing means no more locks at blind side.

As a combination the South African locks as a squad has no equal currently, with Etzebeth, de Jager, Mostert and Snyman the quality between the starting pair and subbing pair does not drop. You have line out prowess, work rate, physicality mobility and ball carrying with great ball skills.

I don't think you're too far wrong with this assumption, although it's been a long time since any of them have showed this on the international stage for obvious reasons. I'm also not sure I'd throw Lood in at the top bracket, although he is very good.

Etzebeth is a funny one. When he broke onto the scene, he was such a force with unlimited potential it seemed. He then went really off the boil, seemingly out looking for a scrap rather than focusing on his game. The last few years, he's really came back at another level and is certainly in the top 3 locks around currently. I would say his lineout work and physicality are perhaps better than Itoje's, but I'd have Itoje marginally ahead in most other aspects. Itoje is just operating on another level, the standout lock in the game right now.

SA produce class locks for themselves and every other team. I don't think anyone can touch the current four for the Boks. It doesn't make Itoje any less world class though.

There is one big benefit of having Itoje in your team compared the SA second rows and that's his ability to play 80 minutes every match, allows greater tactical flexibility in the overall 23.

Well hopefully we will find out how untouchable the SA 4 are this summer when Itoje and AWJ (cough) take them on. If we can get a cricket series there this winter then the hope has to be we can get a rugby team on the pitch in 6 months.

I don’t think they are untouchable, however Rassie plays his 6/2 split with a squad mentality, his requirement of his locks is simple, give me as many engagements as possible, give me a high workrate, I won’t pull you because you make mistakes, but I will pull you when your tire.

Itoje may well be an 80 minute player, but that is a lot of work for one player when going into a tournament or test series.