'better for everyone. The SA teams will mean bigger, tougher games'

First topic message reminder :

Interesting article here.
https://www.the42.ie/south-africa-pro16-5451128-May2021/


Its from a SA point of view but there was also this line: There is hope that the Pro16 could double or treble its turnover in the next six or seven years.


More competition, tougher games, big name players and teams with big fan bases, a straight forward league instead of conferences, better refs (hopefully). Sounds good to me. If Benetton get up to speed it would boost Italian interest too.


I also heard that it won't be called the pro16. Its going to get a new name.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:How is that spiteful trolling? Its a comment from you!

In my experience it's normally the same set of fans who will go to away games no matter if its down the road or in Plymouth. And those are the fans of the teams. The point of my reply was that you said that theres a host who don't support them at all.

It's the undertone of the comment, and you know what you are doing.

If you can drive to game and back all in the same day, then you will more than likely get travelling fans, if you have to stay overnight, pay for hotels, pay for flights, pay for ferry crossings, then you are less likely to see travelling fans, hence why you do not see them in the Pro14.

How were Anglo Welsh cup game attendances improved by someone like Bristol getting a Welsh team compared to the two "Northern" teams or a London team.

New things get old quickly. Munster still sell out for Champions Cup games but if there was a B&I league the average attendance would probably only be 1000 more than now for the home games by year 2 or 3.  It's not like playing Tigers/Quinns is any more appalling for the munster fan than playing Glasgow or Ospreys now.
Can't see how Scarlets v Bath becomes more appealing as a midtable game where the result doesnt matter in a B&I League happening every year compared to a once in a while Champions Cup where the winner tops the group.

Some Welsh wanting to be part of the Premership reminds me of a quote about Sarries and Quinn's. Sarries are Quinn's rivals and the big league games, but Quinn's are just another team to Sarries.

Brendan wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:There's no undertone just a point back. Stop being so thin skinned, if you want to make statements where everyone agrees with you a forum isn't the place to do it.

London pretty much says the same thing, it may be nice for some Welsh fans go to Bristol but the same issues would be there for Newcastle and Munster trips. Again from my experience of supporters the novelty helps crowds initially. As when you see new teams come up in the football prem they fill the ground travel away, if they're lucky enough to become a fixture the crowds generally fall away. To draw big crowds consistently you need really large fanbases, Given your point on less than half the rugby population supporting the regions it leads to the same issue. I don't think you'd see huge leaps in attendances for Bristol attendances at their home games for instance over a 5 year period.

Fans who don't go to home games aren't going to go to away games and I doubt 50% of the home team fans go to away games.

Games still happen on Friday night and if you want to drink then Hotels are kind of part of the journey.

Wales is also not blessed with great airports for anyone looking to fly (which might also be why the Welsh teams get less away fans) might find it harder to get to (like Galway which is about an hour from the airports)

2019 passager numbers
The 4 big London airports are 4 of the top 5. Manchester is no.4 (for Sale). Edinburgh 6, Birmingham 7, Bristol 8, Glasgow 9, Belfast 10,  Newcastle 11, London City 12, Liverpool 13, East Midlands 14, Leeds 15, Aberdeen 16, Belfast City 17, London Southend 18, Southampton 19, Jersey 20, Cardiff 21 (was a little smaller then Southampton and Jersey)
Irish Airports would have been Dublin is a little bigger than Manchester, Cork the size of Belfast City and Shannon is the size of Cardiff.

It use to be as cheap to fly from Cork to Newcastle as to drive to Dublin and even Scottish Airports are fairly cheap.  I don't see the problem in flying especially if a group gets together and packs a bus out.  It might be a Wales thing because of lack of flights but plenty Irish would go the UK or western Europe for a weekend and stay in some cheap hostel or AirBnB (pre-covid anyway) just for a change of scenery.

In theory driving is great to away games but after 3-5 hours in the car each way the flight looks more appealing

Re. the lack of flights. Bristol is high up on that list you posted. I live in Wales and pretty much always fly from Bristol. They fly pretty much everywhere. And it takes me the same time to get to Bristol airport from home as it does to get to Cardiff, so I guess you’d need to add in Bristol to your calculations for options available for Welsh travelling supporters too, which changes things a bit.

And when you say ‘maybe it’s a Wales thing’...... outside of the league (so international and Lions) Wales rugby supporters have always had one of the highest numbers of travelling fans. Remember reading about it a few years ago. So they do travel for weekends away, and in big numbers,, when they want to. Of course, it tends to be the ‘nicer’ weekends away that they are likely to travel for - France, Italy, 6 Nations weekends. Similarly for other nations too I guess, which might explain their absence from Newport on a winter Pro16 weekend

I’m with LD on the travel thing. I can and have travelled to England for games over the years. For me living in Newport it is easy to get to Bristol, Bath, Gloucester, Worcester - like, 30mins - 1 hour for all of them and trains running regularly. Reading is pretty close and straight down the M4 - do London Irish still play there?! It’s only really Sale (bit tricky) and Newcastle (very tricky) that would be in any way burdensome. I guess what I’m saying is that as someone who lives in wales I could and have considered and gone through with trips to premiership clubs. I haven’t once considered or gone through with a trip for a Pro16 game outside Wales. It’s just not on the radar. Apart from someone suggesting we go to Scotland for a weekend on the lash and catch a Dragons game. But that never materialised. Generally it’s just not something you’d consider doing.

Was going to say Bristol might be easier for Dragons fans but it's a long track to Llanelli to catch a flight. Hence why I mentioned Galway being simillarly a long treck from an airport.

I get that there are a few teams close to the Welsh boarder but going from West Wales the 4 close teams is still quite a treck and not really doable on a Friday.

People use to complain about Sunday afternoon games and being a pain to get to, I think people see the grass as greener and if it was to happen I'm not sure how many people would actually go.

The other thing that needs to be taken into consideration is how bad the train service is most weekends, as it's when they do all the maintenance - what was a two hour trip when you booked it two months ago on Trainline can easily turn into six hours on a "bus replacement service".
This used to happen quite regularly when I followed my football team around the country.

The only problem would be Newcastle on a Friday. Sale away was great, when I did it with Dragons. Coach trip was a great laugh. Maybe it was the novelty and it probably helped we won, for the journey back. But everything else would be easy.

But then again, I’m one of the diehards, so I wouldn’t need much convincing.

Even before Covid taking a train from Cardiff or further west back to the Midlands was like riding the full length of the Orient Express without any(!) of the creature comforts. And always seemed to be worse going back home. In the end, we usually drove. Always wanted to make my father the sober driver for the day, but that never lasted past the bottle he usually uncorked after we got in the car on the drive down in the morning.

Brendan wrote:Was going to say Bristol might be easier for Dragons fans but it's a long track to Llanelli to catch a flight. Hence why I mentioned Galway being simillarly a long treck from an airport.

I get that there are a few teams close to the Welsh boarder but going from West Wales the 4 close teams is still quite a treck and not really doable on a Friday.

People use to complain about Sunday afternoon games and being a pain to get to,  I think people see the grass as greener and if it was to happen I'm not sure how many people would actually go.

You say that, but I guess it depends what you mean by West Wales.  Proper west wales, and I mean places like Aberaeron, Aberystwyth, Newquay, etc. (I.e those ones looking out to sea at Ireland).  Yes, that’s a hell of a trek.  But who actually lives there apart from rich English folks with their 2nd homes?!

Even  though they call themselves ‘West Wales’, look on the map and you’ll see Llanelli are just to the left of centre south Wales on the south coast!  Llanelli are the furthest team yet and you can drive to Llanelli from Newport in an hour (my in-laws have a static just outside Llanelli so I know the drive well).  My point being that Llanelli to Bristol would be about 1.5 hours, maybe a little more.  So not exactly a long trek, depending on what time of day you do it.  

But yes I agree that proper West Wales, or North Wales for that matter, is a helluva trek.  Dem damn mountains in the way, see!

The Oracle wrote:

Brendan wrote:Was going to say Bristol might be easier for Dragons fans but it's a long track to Llanelli to catch a flight. Hence why I mentioned Galway being simillarly a long treck from an airport.

I get that there are a few teams close to the Welsh boarder but going from West Wales the 4 close teams is still quite a treck and not really doable on a Friday.

People use to complain about Sunday afternoon games and being a pain to get to,  I think people see the grass as greener and if it was to happen I'm not sure how many people would actually go.

You say that, but I guess it depends what you mean by West Wales.  Proper west wales, and I mean places like Aberaeron, Aberystwyth, Newquay, etc. (I.e those ones looking out to sea at Ireland).  Yes, that’s a hell of a trek.  But who actually lives there apart from rich English folks with their 2nd homes?!

Even  though they call themselves ‘West Wales’, look on the map and you’ll see Llanelli are just to the left of centre south Wales on the south coast!  Llanelli are the furthest team yet and you can drive to Llanelli from Newport in an hour (my in-laws have a static just outside Llanelli so I know the drive well).  My point being that Llanelli to Bristol would be about 1.5 hours, maybe a little more.  So not exactly a long trek, depending on what time of day you do it.  

But yes I agree that proper West Wales, or North Wales for that matter, is a helluva trek.  Dem damn mountains in the way, see!

Don't talk to me about your problems, talk to me about your successes.  Just move the d*mn mountains!!!!!!

doctor_grey wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

Brendan wrote:Was going to say Bristol might be easier for Dragons fans but it's a long track to Llanelli to catch a flight. Hence why I mentioned Galway being simillarly a long treck from an airport.

I get that there are a few teams close to the Welsh boarder but going from West Wales the 4 close teams is still quite a treck and not really doable on a Friday.

People use to complain about Sunday afternoon games and being a pain to get to,  I think people see the grass as greener and if it was to happen I'm not sure how many people would actually go.

You say that, but I guess it depends what you mean by West Wales.  Proper west wales, and I mean places like Aberaeron, Aberystwyth, Newquay, etc. (I.e those ones looking out to sea at Ireland).  Yes, that’s a hell of a trek.  But who actually lives there apart from rich English folks with their 2nd homes?!

Even  though they call themselves ‘West Wales’, look on the map and you’ll see Llanelli are just to the left of centre south Wales on the south coast!  Llanelli are the furthest team yet and you can drive to Llanelli from Newport in an hour (my in-laws have a static just outside Llanelli so I know the drive well).  My point being that Llanelli to Bristol would be about 1.5 hours, maybe a little more.  So not exactly a long trek, depending on what time of day you do it.  

But yes I agree that proper West Wales, or North Wales for that matter, is a helluva trek.  Dem damn mountains in the way, see!

Don't talk to me about your problems, talk to me about your successes.  Just move the d*mn mountains!!!!!!

But we love them!!! I’m actually off to the Brecon Beacons for a fitness hike (and post hike beers, of course) later today!

The Oracle wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

Brendan wrote:Was going to say Bristol might be easier for Dragons fans but it's a long track to Llanelli to catch a flight. Hence why I mentioned Galway being simillarly a long treck from an airport.

I get that there are a few teams close to the Welsh boarder but going from West Wales the 4 close teams is still quite a treck and not really doable on a Friday.

People use to complain about Sunday afternoon games and being a pain to get to,  I think people see the grass as greener and if it was to happen I'm not sure how many people would actually go.

You say that, but I guess it depends what you mean by West Wales.  Proper west wales, and I mean places like Aberaeron, Aberystwyth, Newquay, etc. (I.e those ones looking out to sea at Ireland).  Yes, that’s a hell of a trek.  But who actually lives there apart from rich English folks with their 2nd homes?!

Even  though they call themselves ‘West Wales’, look on the map and you’ll see Llanelli are just to the left of centre south Wales on the south coast!  Llanelli are the furthest team yet and you can drive to Llanelli from Newport in an hour (my in-laws have a static just outside Llanelli so I know the drive well).  My point being that Llanelli to Bristol would be about 1.5 hours, maybe a little more.  So not exactly a long trek, depending on what time of day you do it.  

But yes I agree that proper West Wales, or North Wales for that matter, is a helluva trek.  Dem damn mountains in the way, see!

Don't talk to me about your problems, talk to me about your successes.  Just move the d*mn mountains!!!!!!

But we love them!!! I’m actually off to the Brecon Beacons for a fitness hike (and post hike beers, of course)  later today!

OK be that way.  Keep your d*mn mountains!

Actually, the first thought I had when I saw your comment is I am truly envious.  Haven't been home since the 2019 holidays.  Really want to go home and just drive around (with a few beers of course)....

Right on my doorstep Pen-Y-Fan is. I do the walks quite often. The whole park is a beautiful.

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GCEA_enGB921GB921&source=univ&tbm=isch&q=pictures+of+the+brecon+beacons&safe=active&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi4i6bbxpbxAhW9D2MBHaVTA0UQjJkEegQICRAC&biw=1600&bih=767

Wouldn’t mind touring that with my 690 enduro

Old Man wrote:Wouldn’t mind touring that with my 690 enduro

I don't think the ramblers would appreciate you doing that though.

LordDowlais wrote:Right on my doorstep Pen-Y-Fan is. I do the walks quite often. The whole park is a beautiful.

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GCEA_enGB921GB921&source=univ&tbm=isch&q=pictures+of+the+brecon+beacons&safe=active&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi4i6bbxpbxAhW9D2MBHaVTA0UQjJkEegQICRAC&biw=1600&bih=767

I bet you often come across people who can't pronounce it correctly.

LordDowlais wrote:

Old Man wrote:Wouldn’t mind touring that with my 690 enduro

I don't think the ramblers would appreciate you doing that though.

Probably not

LordDowlais wrote:Right on my doorstep Pen-Y-Fan is. I do the walks quite often. The whole park is a beautiful.

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GCEA_enGB921GB921&source=univ&tbm=isch&q=pictures+of+the+brecon+beacons&safe=active&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi4i6bbxpbxAhW9D2MBHaVTA0UQjJkEegQICRAC&biw=1600&bih=767

It's a pleasant walk when the various squaddies from the camp are running past carrying logs to the top and back, assuming they still have to do the "Fan Dance" these days and aren't transported to the top by helicopter

mikey_dragon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Right on my doorstep Pen-Y-Fan is. I do the walks quite often. The whole park is a beautiful.

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GCEA_enGB921GB921&source=univ&tbm=isch&q=pictures+of+the+brecon+beacons&safe=active&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi4i6bbxpbxAhW9D2MBHaVTA0UQjJkEegQICRAC&biw=1600&bih=767

I bet you often come across people who can't pronounce it correctly.

Yep.

Also I have a lot of people asking what it means, along with Corn Du, Fan Brycheiniog and Cribyn. I end up giving people a Welsh lesson when I am walking around there. Mostly English people.

profitius wrote:Apparently a new name for the league has been chosen and will be announced in the next few weeks.

United Rugby Championship. URC.


https://www.ft.com/content/a818f21c-10f3-444b-8f10-3b531e11352b

profitius wrote:

profitius wrote:Apparently a new name for the league has been chosen and will be announced in the next few weeks.

United Rugby Championship. URC.

Meridian Cup.

Old Man wrote:

profitius wrote:

profitius wrote:Apparently a new name for the league has been chosen and will be announced in the next few weeks.

United Rugby Championship. URC.

Meridian Cup.

Wouldn't be bad either!

http://unitedrugby.com/

Is this legit or did you use your magical talents to create this?

Old Man wrote:Is this legit or did you use your magical talents to create this?

Legit. They've just announced it.


https://mobile.twitter.com/PRO14Official?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

Yep it is ligit.

However the format is BS. Why not just play everyone once? If you play “derby matches” you don’t play the same opponents twice. And also the qualification of the regional pools is still manipulation of the qualification for European Champions Cup. Someone is going to lose out.

Just keep it simple. Then there is no controversy

Old Man wrote:Yep it is ligit.

However the format is BS. Why not just play everyone once? If you play “derby matches” you don’t play the same opponents twice. And also the qualification of the regional pools is still manipulation of the qualification for European Champions Cup. Someone is going to lose out.

Welcome to the Pro14/16/18.........

Be careful though, as you will end up being tarred and feathered otherwise.

Old Man wrote:Yep it is ligit.

However the format is BS. Why not just play everyone once? If you play “derby matches” you don’t play the same opponents twice. And also the qualification of the regional pools is still manipulation of the qualification for European Champions Cup. Someone is going to lose out.

It is a difficult one that

Playing each team once or twice is clearly the gold standard but it gives either to few or to many games.

Take the derbies out and we are down to 15 regular games, which will have an impact on income and squad size and utility. It is not like the European teams have another competition like the Currie Cup or Mitre 10 to fall back on for that.

More derbies, which are certainly popular over here, also cuts down on the travelling considerably, which the players will appreciate as well.


I think having 8 teams into the knockouts will largely negate any advantages seen through weaker or stronger pools and it will keep every team interested in the season as well. I think the idea is to keep sides playing competitive teams, which in the Pro12/14 they have not always done.

It is certainly not going to please everyone, but it does seem like a good attempt at it!

Old Man wrote:Just keep it simple. Then there is no controversy

Yeah. They're trying to give the weaker teams a helping hand and keep interest in most countries going.


South African sides will play only 6 regular season games in europe. That should cut down the travel.

Looks like SA teams can qualify for the Heineken cup the season after next.

https://twitter.com/nickheathsport

The TV deal may not just be Premier Sports either!

BigGee wrote:https://twitter.com/nickheathsport

The TV deal may not just be Premier Sports either!

Yep, we already know this, BBC Wales will show 15 games with the Welsh sides playing next season.

Tournament is set for another 5 years then puts an end to the Welsh joining the English for a while then,

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/57475511

Not bad, seems like it is going in the right direction. The extra derbies shouldn't make too much difference to league standings as it's only 3 games, seem to be doing travel in the right way too.
So yeah pretty positive, hopefully it will lead to more competition.

BigGee wrote:https://twitter.com/nickheathsport

The TV deal may not just be Premier Sports either!

Great. Back to the good old days of taking ages to release fixtures

Wonder what those absolute top banter lads who came up with the absolutely hilarious PrO’14 moniker will create next for URC?

Well I suppose the fact that there aren’t conferences is good news. One log is vital

So basically if the other 4 places for the Champions Cup, i.e. the 4 non pool winners, are based on the final league standings, it would be possible for the winners of the URC to not qualify for the Champions Cup....

I think thewinners of the URC will still be in the top 8, considering they will be one of the stronger teams and every match outside the pools still count for the ultimate log standing

You have to be in the top 8 to qualify for the play offs.

Oakdene wrote:So basically if the other 4 places for the Champions Cup, i.e. the 4 non pool winners, are based on the final league standings, it would be possible for the winners of the URC to not qualify for the Champions Cup....

It may be mathematically possible, but seems very unlikely!

BigGee wrote:

Oakdene wrote:So basically if the other 4 places for the Champions Cup, i.e. the 4 non pool winners, are based on the final league standings, it would be possible for the winners of the URC to not qualify for the Champions Cup....

It may be mathematically possible, but seems very unlikely!

I think, all it takes is one of the 4 pool winners to not be in the top 8 in the & a side who finishes 7th or 8th to win the whole thing.

Oakdene wrote:

BigGee wrote:

Oakdene wrote:So basically if the other 4 places for the Champions Cup, i.e. the 4 non pool winners, are based on the final league standings, it would be possible for the winners of the URC to not qualify for the Champions Cup....

It may be mathematically possible, but seems very unlikely!

I think, all it takes is one of the 4 pool winners to not be in the top 8 in the & a side who finishes 7th or 8th to win the whole thing.

Indeed, but you are going to have to accumulate a lot of points to top your pool. A lot of those points will have to be won against sides in other pools.

Lets see how it plays out, but i still think it is very unlikely.

BigGee wrote:

Oakdene wrote:

BigGee wrote:

Oakdene wrote:So basically if the other 4 places for the Champions Cup, i.e. the 4 non pool winners, are based on the final league standings, it would be possible for the winners of the URC to not qualify for the Champions Cup....

It may be mathematically possible, but seems very unlikely!

I think, all it takes is one of the 4 pool winners to not be in the top 8 in the & a side who finishes 7th or 8th to win the whole thing.

Indeed, but you are going to have to accumulate a lot of points to top your pool. A lot of those points will have to be won against sides in other pools.

Lets see how it plays out, but i still think it is very unlikely.

Maybe but there is a chance all you need to do is be the best of a bad bunch.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Tournament is set for another 5 years then puts an end to the Welsh joining the English for a while then,

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/57475511

Not wanting to sound wummish....

I don't think The Welsh joining us was ever on the cards, why would we want them?

The English Premiership is a great league and excellent product, I would say our league and the T14 are the best in rugby currently. I have literally no idea of what goes on in the Pro14 or whatever it's called these days as it seems to change every season, this is not the sign of a league that is thriving.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Tournament is set for another 5 years then puts an end to the Welsh joining the English for a while then,

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/57475511

Not wanting to sound wummish....

I don't think The Welsh joining us was ever on the cards, why would we want them?

The English Premiership is a great league and excellent product, I would say our league and the T14 are the best in rugby currently. I have literally no idea of what goes on in the Pro14 or whatever it's called these days as it seems to change every season, this is not the sign of a league that is thriving.

The English has no second tier of note. It needs one. That's the change the WRU have missed by condemning Welsh rugby to the Emperor's New Clothes for so long.

We have the Championship.

No 7&1/2 wrote:We have the Championship.

I guess you missed the letter from Coventry RFC.

And then compare the Championship with ProD2.

And then re-assess.

The one from last year? So what? I'm not really bothered about the pro d2 as I don't watch it. The rugby is fine when I get the chance to watch the championship. Pies good anyway.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The one from last year? So what? I'm not really bothered about the pro d2 as I don't watch it. The rugby is fine when I get the chance to watch the championship. Pies good anyway.

So you make a point without a) keeping up to date with the facts and b) comprehending the point you were replying to

Standard.

Championship is great. Its fun. Why talk down the league simply because you want it replaced with Welsh teams?

What specifically is your problem with the league?

As a heads up the pros and cons on the news is going on in the prem thread.

PhilBB wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Tournament is set for another 5 years then puts an end to the Welsh joining the English for a while then,

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/57475511

Not wanting to sound wummish....

I don't think The Welsh joining us was ever on the cards, why would we want them?

The English Premiership is a great league and excellent product, I would say our league and the T14 are the best in rugby currently. I have literally no idea of what goes on in the Pro14 or whatever it's called these days as it seems to change every season, this is not the sign of a league that is thriving.

The English has no second tier of note. It needs one. That's the change the WRU have missed by condemning Welsh rugby to the Emperor's New Clothes for so long.

The simple answer Phil is that there isn't enough money or support to sustain a proper second division.
The French have some pretty big names in D2 - USAP, Biarritz, Oyonnax, which the Championship doesn't have, the biggest name in the Championship is whichever Premiership team has been relegated that season, who also are likely to win everything, so it's not that competitive.
Also the clubs that might think about chasing promotion - Ealing, Jersey, Pirates, Doncaster are wary of the arbitrary rules about "ground standards" that seem to apply to them but not relegated Premiership teams, or the costs of even trying to be competitive in the Premiership.