Ashes 2021/22 and other cricket through the winter of 2021 thread

[VTR]

First topic message reminder :

Don't know anything about that number 9 and 10, are they decent hitters that just happen to be low in the order, or were England again awarding outlier performances to the opposition?

[Duty281]

Joe Root (Yorkshire) captain Jonathan Bairstow (Yorkshire) Zak Crawley (Kent) Matthew Fisher (Yorkshire) Ben Foakes (Surrey) Dan Lawrence (Essex) Jack Leach (Somerset) Alex Lees (Durham) Saqib Mahmood (Lancashire) Craig Overton (Somerset) Matthew Parkinson (Lancashire) Ollie Pope (Surrey) Ollie Robinson (Sussex) Ben Stokes (Durham) Chris Woakes (Warwickshire) Mark Wood (Durham)

Good heavens, what is this rubbish? Matthew Fisher?! Overton, Woakes and Bairstow?!

Malan, Burns and Hameed also dropped. And Buttler. But Pope stays in, as do Crawley and Lawrence.

Lees, Foakes, Mahmood and Parkinson all come in, decent selections. Fisher is an absurd call. Absolutely absurd.

Woakes, Overton and Bairstow all getting picked shows the lack of learning. No rest for Stokes or Root.

Possible team - Lees, Crawley, Bairstow, Root, Stokes, Pope/Lawrence, Foakes as the top seven. Pick what you like from the bowlers. Hardly any batting depth, just Lawrence or Pope in reserve. No Bohannon (nearly forgot!) is also a big disappointment.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Interim Managing Director for England Men's Cricket, Sir Andrew Strauss, said:

"With the start of a new cycle, it has allowed the selection panel to refresh the Test squad with a particular focus on competing away from home.

"We felt that it was time to draw a line after the Ashes defeat, look forward and give some impetus with an influx of new players.

"In respect of James Anderson and Stuart Broad, I want to emphasise this does not mean the end for them as England players. We feel that it is important to look at some exciting new bowling potential and give some added responsibility to other players who have featured previously. No one doubts the quality and experience that James and Stuart bring to the England set-up. It will be up to the new managing director and permanent head coach to decide on whether they will be involved this summer and beyond.

"This selection of this squad is the start of a process and a journey to get England Test cricket back to where it needs to be, and the hard work starts now."


So not the end for Anderson/Broad, and basically using it to have a look at a few. Albeit how Woakes and Overton are part of that overseas I’ve no idea…

[Duty281]

Interim Managing Director for England Men's Cricket, Sir Andrew Strauss, said:

"With the start of a new cycle, it has allowed the selection panel to refresh the Test squad with a particular focus on competing away from home.

I don't get how he emphasises particular focus on competing away from home, whilst picking Woakes who is toffee away from home, albeit it's a Dukes ball in the West Indies (I think). Nothing new will be learnt from picking Woakes and Overton.

The batting is strange as well. No real depth to it. What happens if a player falls over in the dressing room (again) or two or three need to quarantine? Would it have hurt to pick one or two more players like Bohannon and Yates? I'm not a massive fan, but I am surprised Malan has been dropped.

West Indies big, big favourites for this series. They've won two and drawn one of the last three series at home v England, they should be able to extend that record.

Fisher's FC record is 21 matches, 63 wickets, average 27.5, SR 51 and an economy of 3.22 (concerning). Hardly inspiring stuff, though he did have a decent year in 2021, albeit with only 5 games - 20 wickets, average 19.65, SR 36.3 and an economy of 3.24.

I can only imagine the England selectors have seen something from him which justifies a test call-up because that record certainly doesn't.

[JDizzle]

I really wanted to shred the Fisher pick as he’s never looked anything special when I’ve seen him, albeit in white ball. Not particular quick and not particularly tall. Tough to see how consistent or how much movement he gets when I’ve only seen him with the white ball.

Like I say, I don’t wanted to shred the Fisher pick but he’s averaged 19, 18 and 26 in the last three FC seasons. Which is a lot better than I thought! Just not played many games - injuries?

[msp83]

So England dropped senior Batters James Anderson and Stuart Broad for their consistent failures with the bat throughout the series thus leading to the team's pathetic showing with the bat in the recently concluded Ashes series. Oliver Pope, the man who terrorized bowlers across the planet and beyond will lead the revamped batting unit, and specialist drinks carrier Daniel Lawrence has also been retained! As they expect all their batters to top-score throughout the series, Dawid Malan's 2nd best performance wasn't good enough for him to be retained in the side! How ruthless and demanding!

[JDizzle]

Dobell reporting Root ‘has been told’ he will bat 3. That is a worse decision than leaving out Broad and Anderson!

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

https://twitter.com/georgedobell1/status/1491117100601348098?s=21

Forcing Root to bat at 3 after he’s had a career year at 4, and has noted he doesn’t like 3 and tried there before?

For Christ sake lads

[msp83]

Dobell reporting Root ‘has been told’ he will bat 3. That is a worse decision than leaving out Broad and Anderson!

Root might still score at 3, but he's at his best at 4, and he is the only proper specialist bat worth his salt in that side!
The new control system seem to be taking a lot of decisions, just to come across as proactive! The saving grace for Strauss and co could be that they are going to be playing the West Indies...

[Duty281]

Dobell reporting Root ‘has been told’ he will bat 3. That is a worse decision than leaving out Broad and Anderson!

https://twitter.com/georgedobell1/status/1491117100601348098?s=21

Forcing Root to bat at 3 after he’s had a career year at 4, and has noted he doesn’t like 3 and tried there before?

For Christ sake lads

Just another reminder of how clueless the leadership is. The only bit of the team that works as it should is getting shunted up to a less preferable position so that...what? Bairstow bats at 4 instead? Or Pope?

And why isn't Root putting his foot down and saying that 'four is his best position, I won't be moved'.

I really hope the West Indies smash England 3-0.

Root at 3 - 38.66 average, two centuries.
Root at 4 - 51.27 average, 14 centuries.

[alfie]

Takes a bit of digesting , that squad , eh ?

At first glance it appears to me to be just a little more "experimental" than I'd expected : but people (including on here ) have been screaming for change so probably shouldn't be outraged when they see some...

Resting the two old boys may be OK (I'd still expect them to play some part in a busy summer) but it does really put a lot on the likes of Wood (stay fit , please !) Woakes with his dodgy overseas form and the not very fit Robinson : Fisher is a shock pick so someone must have seen something there.

Leach and Parkinson guarantees a number eleven spin selection. Jack is lucky to survive the cull I think so had better stand up this trip.

Batting looks a bit short handed : only two openers and no real number three ? And how Pope is kept after that Ashes tour is beyond me - I'd have thought he was certain to be returned to Surrey for rehab ; but we will see. Another rotten tour could do for him completely so hopefully he can recover some confidence and runs.

Root forced to bat at three ? Hmmm...

I do get the plan for the future thing but part of me thinks a lot of their troubles might stem from not treating non-Ashes matches as primarily games they need to win ...though I see goose has a contrary view. Personally I fear losing badly in West Indies would be an awful way to start a process of recovery so hopefully this squad has the makings of an effective team.

Possible XI ?

Crawley Lees Root Stokes Bairstow Lawrence Foakes Woakes Wood Leach Mahmood ?

[king_carlos]

1.Crawley 2.Lees 3.Root 4.Bairstow 5.Stokes 6.Lawrence/Pope 7.Foakes 8.Woakes/Overton 9.Robinson 10.Wood 11.Leach

Erm. Something like that I guess. Not particularly inspiring frankly.

I'd have picked Bracey though strictly as a top 3 bat, not as a keeper at Test level.

Josh Bohannon has a decent average but only 3 centuries in F-C cricket so I struggle to see him as banging the door down.

I really don't see Overton adding much long term. He's a good swing/seam bowler in home conditions but we've got much better at home, I'm not sure what he really offers away. Hopefully he proves me wrong.

[Gooseberry]

So yeah Strauss actually said "it does not mean the end of them" (Broanderson) in the press conference.

So some of the overeaction can be rolled back

[VTR]

I actually support resting/dropping them/whatever it actually is. England have hardly won any games in the last year despite their efforts, it now does feel like time to start rebuilding again. Broad and Anderson themselves took several years each to become world class bowlers, which they only achieved through opportunities to play. Its tough, but they presumably have less than 2 years left in them, it is time to move on

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I actually support resting/dropping them/whatever it actually is. England have hardly won any games in the last year despite their efforts, it now does feel like time to start rebuilding again. Broad and Anderson themselves took several years each to become world class bowlers, which they only achieved through opportunities to play. Its tough, but they presumably have less than 2 years left in them, it is time to move on

Yeah, it seems likely both will be in squads during the home summer too - it is slightly odd, but as you say, it will provide a good opportunity to Robinson/Wood/Mahmood in particular to both gain experience of leading an attack/taking the new ball, and also give some opportunities for England to see some fringe bowlers (Fisher!) and if they have anything for the future.

Keeping Woakes in the squad for this overseas tour is slightly bizarre to me...I can kind of understand it for Overton, he has been a standout county bowler and he really hasn't had a proper opportunity in the test side bar the odd game here or there, so having him in the squad again (with it being sans Anderson/Broad) does make some sense to me. Woakes, I can't quite wrap my head around.

If I had to choose an XI out of the squad it would be (in light of this really being an opportunities tour, I do agree Alfie that tests really shouldn't be seen like this, but in light of the flux I do think it makes some sense to be a bit more flexible rather than win at all costs, that mentality will return when they get the new coach/selectors etc in)

Lees
Crawley
Stokes
Root
Lawrence
Pope
Foakes (wk)
Robinson
Wood
Mahmood
Parkinson

We already know that won't happen, because bizarrely they want to put Root at 3 (totally blows my mind this, if you want to trial someone at 3 I would suggest Stokes might be a good option, especially if we are looking to reduce his bowling workload, which imo we should be as it's clear his body isn't upto a full bowling quota anymore).

Foakes should really be given a run in the side now with the gloves. As said before, I am not convinced he will be much better than Buttler/Bairstow, but he's earnt a chance and missed out due to pure bad luck last summer.

Lees and Crawley pick themselves as there is no reserve opener!

I would personally give Parkinson the series over Leach...I do like Leach, but again if this is a tour looking to give players opportunities, how about lets not have Parkinson carry drinks for a whole tour again. Parkinson panning out as a viable test bowler would be massively massively valuable to England's test plans, more so than playing Leach (we kinda know what he is now)

Big series for Robinson to prove his fitness - I think we all know by now he is good enough, just needs to shoulder the workload better.

Should be a good watch - I don't quite share Duty's pure pessimism, it should be remembered the West Indies are hardly some juggernaut side either (particularly with the bat)...but I would make them favourites to win at the end of the series.

[Duty281]

Yep, pure pessimism. England have only won two series out of the last eleven in the Caribbean (same as in Australia) and need to go there with the strongest team to have a chance of victory.

Instead, they're dropping their two best seamers (because the Ashes are happening soon), moving the best batsman of 2021 in the world to a position he doesn't like, and have only one batsmen in reserve in-case of bad form/injury. Good start.

The overall strength of the top seven is marginally better than Zimbabwe, but the slip catching isn't. The seam bowling is comprised of a man who would be called unfit in 1954; another man who's made of glass; and someone else who averages 50 overseas. But don't worry as I'm sure Fisher and Overton will bail England out. Leach might play, but he probably won't, and if he does he'll get to bowl to a '180/2 in the 32nd over ODI field'. Parkinson will carry more drinks than a Soho waiter and should spend the next week learning how to mix cocktails.

Topping off this fantastic recipe is Joe Root's captaincy. Say no more.

West Indies are not amazing by any stretch. Their batting is quite weak, but they have a tidy seam bowling attack which was able to limit a decent Pakistan batting order quite significantly, and they should pull apart England's woeful top seven. I'm looking forward to how Seales does after a good start to his test career.

I'm looking forward to the odds, because I reckon England will be made narrow favourites.

[alfie]

Interesting this business about Root being (ordered ?) to bat at three...

Is he the captain or not ?  I do not always see eye to eye with Ian Chappell (who batted himself at three from choice , of course , as the best bats generally did in those days) ; but if he had ever been instructed by an Australian selector as to the batting order he must use , I believe he would have told said selector in no uncertain terms where he could stick it !

Practically speaking they've not really left Root much in the way of other options , in truth. In fact this is my one real complaint about the squad : picking just two openers  , one a new boy and the other probably a natural three batting at one/two , and no regular three at all seems to be inviting trouble. What if someone gets injured , quite apart from form issues ?

Root at three from this squad seems as likely as any , and hopefully won't spook him : the stats that Duty quoted above perhaps don't really mean all that much . I'd suggest that he has batted at four for much the greater part of his best years ,  and most of his outings at three have come against Australia and India  - which might have slightly skewed the figures.  Root's recent best ever year came admittedly at three ; but with him coming in during the first few overs anyway most of the time , so it may not make that much of a difference.  I would still prefer him to stay at four but what are the alternatives ?

Stokes ?  Bit much to ask of your all rounder I'd have thought. He is probably up to the task but I think he is better placed lower down.
Same goes for Bairstow : he'd take it on it if they ask (batted there last West Indies tour , with mixed results) but don't you want him at five six to take the attack to the spinners ?
Suppose they could put Pope in there : not sure his confidence is going to be sky high after his wretched Ashes but I guess he would at least be assured of having his eye in before the spinners came on  - if he could survive long enough !

To be fair : all well and good for me to criticize the selections (and I do believe the number three issue is the glaring weakness of this squad ) there were not a lot of options for the selectors. If they were determined to move on from Malan - who was a bit of a hopeful horses for courses punt for Australia , and only partially , and early on in the series , successful - then I'm not sure who else they might have picked. The position has been even more an issue than the openers since Trott went : Joe Denly might have been the best occupant in recent years !

I would have taken a third opener  - Burns or maybe Sibley ? - and let Crawley bat three but I can see why they didn't want to go down that road again. Just have to hope for the best - at least if Lees does measure up the whole top three situation will be an improvement on recent times ; though a twenty nine year old averaging 34.8 domestically doesn't fill me with massive confidence...

[alfie]

Perhaps surprising myself that I am relatively relaxed about the bowling choices. Wasn't all that surprised that Broad and Anderson are sitting this one out (though it might have been better to have had one of them on hand ?)  Main reasons being 1/  that again we have just one warm up - and Jimmy in particular seems to need a match or two to get into his groove these days ; and 2/ Conditions may not be particularly helpful to them anyway - pitches in the Caribbean are not like the Old days !  Arguably better to have the two of them go into the busy home summer with some CC warm ups and be at their best for the Tests  : if they are not used across the summer it will either mean England have miraculously unearthed a full effective pace attack and kept it fit for months  -  or that the selectors have completely lost their minds : either is just about possible I guess

Having gone without A and B , the two W's were essential and obvious : Woakes has a rotten record overseas ;  but since West Indies do use a Dukes ball he gets perhaps a chance to change that . Plus he can bat  - and given the fragilities of the top seven that is no little consideration.  Wood surely is going to be the Attack Leader so hope he stays fit. I think he stepped up a notch or two in Australia and hopefully will stay on that course.

Robinson for all his excellent home form is on trial here I think. The way he faded so often in Australia leaves me wondering how he will cope under the Caribbean sun on a flattish pitch. I'd be looking closely at the pitch before playing him.

Which leaves us with the new boys - and Overton , who might actually do a job -  if he gets a chance. Fisher was a surprise call up but his FC figures are not much different from Mahmood's : either could conceivably be a big surprise success : or another Amjad Khan

Spin seems a close call between Leach - who might be handy on a spin friendly surface - and Parkinson who might actually find this a decent place to make a debut ? (Note : what did Bess do so terribly wrong in Australia to be discarded ? Spill the drinks tray ? If West Indies roll up with a few left handers they might yet regret the absence of an off spin option)

I take Strauss's comments on board about trying new bowling options and giving others (like Wood and Woakes) more responsibility. Makes a bit of sense , I think. I don't think this is an attack to strike terror into west Indian hearts ; but if the batsmen can get their act together , it might get the job done.

IF...

[alfie]

And a last word re the keepers.

Foakes' selection ( I would assume he is going to start with the gloves rather than carry drinks ) has delighted many armchair pundits and Purist WK enthusiasts ; and I am happy enough to see him get another shot. But I would hold the celebrations until we see how he performs : no matter if he is the best actual gloveman available , he isn't going to win Tests for England or have a long career unless he can do a job with the bat as well.  He kept on the last West Indies tour , we might recall : made fifty five runs in four innings and took two catches before getting injured. Small sample ; but perhaps a warning not to get too carried away in advance ...

[msp83]

The only thing going for England here is that West Indies can't bat. They can bowl, and in Roach, Gabriel and Seales, they have a quality seam bowling unit. Cornwall/Waricon/Chase are as good as any English spinner. And then there is the excellend Jason Holder, one of the best all-rounders in the world currently.
So it will be a struggle of 2 utterly incompetent batting lineups for being slightly less incompetent. Root, Stokes, Bairstow would give England the edge there, possibly a decisive one at that. In the West Indies, there are only 2 reasonably good bats, skipper Brathwaite, and Holder... Darren Bravo if he gets to play, and Roston Chase can be handy, but not consistent enough... Brathwaite's record though better than England's usual over-hyped 20Somethings, is still pretty ordinary. Holder's while pretty fine for an all-rounder, isn't top 6 stuff either.
So that's where England are going to win this, and then all will hale the Wit and Wisdom of Sir Andrew, at least, till next summer!

[alfie]

The only thing going for England here is that West Indies can't bat. They  can bowl, and in Roach, Gabriel and Seales, they have a quality seam bowling unit. Cornwall/Waricon/Chase are as good as any English spinner. And then there is the excellend Jason Holder, one of the best all-rounders in the world currently.
So it will be a struggle of 2 utterly incompetent batting lineups for being slightly less incompetent. Root, Stokes, Bairstow would give England the edge there, possibly a decisive one at that. In the West Indies, there are only 2 reasonably good bats, skipper Brathwaite, and Holder... Darren Bravo if he gets to play, and Roston Chase can be handy, but not consistent enough... Brathwaite's record though better than England's usual over-hyped 20Somethings, is still pretty ordinary. Holder's while pretty fine for an all-rounder, isn't top 6 stuff either.
So that's where England are going to win this, and then all will hale the Wit and Wisdom of Sir Andrew, at least, till next summer!

[JDizzle]

In March 2008, England dropped Hoggard and Harmison with nearly 460 Test wickets between them for two blokes who had 63 @ 40 at that point between them. This was after being bowled out for 110 and 81 in their previous two games! However much things change with English cricket, they always stay the same.

[Gooseberry]

On the root situation have we learned nothing from the media vs reality of Broad being dropped, then just Anderson, then both of them AXED when Root actually said it wasnt the end for them.

Is there an actual quote where he states he is against the idea but was told he would have to go for drinks with Warner if he didnt? Hes effectively opening regardless on where in the top 4 hes picked anyway lets face it.

The likes of Overton and Woakes will only learn to bowl overseas if they bowl there and are put in positions of responsibility. Overtons being written off despite not having an overseas test since 2018, give the guy a chance in the same way Broad and Anderson were (whos test records were poor at the time they became the lead pair, and Broad in particular took a very long time to become a force overseas). Its not like England are leaving a bunch of quicks on the shelf, Stone and Archer would be in the picture if they could stay fit.

The level of some of the comments on here is really disappointing tbh and gives no thought to the situation England face and what they are trying to achieve long term. Winning these matches is not top of the agenda, and wasnt ever going to be. First choice England sides have come unstuck playing below themselves on these tours anyway with the West Indies being used as an opportunity for some to "relax" or party.

On one hand critisizing England for rotating out senior players, then crying about them not resting Root (a one format player whos leadership is needed) and Stokes (who opted out of the IPL to get a rest/ time at home and focus on tests) is a bit janky.

Sure theres a few selections I find a bit odd, but thats a matter of OPINION. The oddest part being two who struggled with the Lions promoted, even if its positions England want to develop options in.

The top 3 options is straight no win. Theres just not a right answer, you have 4 under performing players in Ashes squad. One is an old 3 format player who was picked as an Aus specialist, unlikely to ever be part of the solution. One is another veteran whos has several goes and not cut it, people have doubts about his basic game. The other is a small guy who had one good comeback season but has never been any good against pace bowling and seems shakeable. They couldve backed Hameed further to find his confidence, or appreciated that Burns has played very little cricket in the last few years and could have benefited from consistent selection over the winter. Instead they went for a county pro with a very mediocre FC record who failed for the Lions, yet somehow this gets described as a "good selection". Any pick here was a bad one IMO.

Except perhaps Bracey couldve been used as a 3, as noted above. I assume the retention of Bairstow is why he didnt get picked, no need for a reserve keeper. But we also get people who were saying England had to keep picking Bairstow a few weeks back now saying he shouldnt have been picked. England just cant do right here.


We also dont know how much dressing room dynamics and attitudes in training played into some of these selections. It may be that they felt Hameed was uncoachable but Crawley is a player they can work on. Its very speculative but theres been plenty of mentions in the past about how difficult a character Broad can be to manage, maybe its just easier on everyone to have a positive welcoming environment without a senior figure complaining to the press about his teammates and getting coaches sacked.

The likes of Overton and Woakes will only learn to bowl overseas if they bowl there and are put in positions of responsibility. Overtons being written off despite not having an overseas test since 2018, give the guy a chance in the same way Broad and Anderson were (whos test records were poor at the time they became the lead pair, and Broad in particular took a very long time to become a force overseas). Its not like England are leaving a bunch of quicks on the shelf, Stone and Archer would be in the picture if they could stay fit.

Given how low England had sunk isnt it right they are at least trying to do something rather than pig headedly banging along with a group of players and dynamic that had seen a continual decline in performance? It may have a short term worsening effect but judge it on where they are in two years time. No more head in the sand, Strauss is signalling they are being bold and have no lines they wont cross. That makes it easier to put demands on the domestic game which are much needed (Roots comments pretty brutal on county cricket).

Am I happy with the state England are in? No. Do I have faith that this squad is right to win these matches, or frankly likely to become the backbone of a top level England team in the next couple of years? Nope. Are there selections Id question, sure. Do I think Strauss is a moron/idiot/insane ... no, I can see what they are trying to achieve and understand that the other choices have their negative points. Hes been brave and shown just how much England need to stop treading water and kicking the problem down the line, even if that means short term pain and not pandering to egos. Thats leadership.

[Gooseberry]

Cornwall/Waricon/Chase are as good as any English spinner

BRUTAL

[Gooseberry]

In March 2008, England dropped Hoggard and Harmison with nearly 460 Test wickets between them for two blokes who had 63 @ 40 at that point between them. This was after being bowled out for 110 and 81 in their previous two games! However much things change with English cricket, they always stay the same.

Hadn't realised the figures were that startling but Ive been banging on about this endlessly for a long time. They took a savaging at the time for it. The slight difference being the H's were struggling and had a poor attitude, but the general principle is the same. England have been trying to ween themselves off a reliance on two aged stars, its only really going to happen if they give some players a consistent run and opportunity to bowl with the new ball overseas. It took Broad and Anderson a long time to come through as overseas bowlers, they are now standing in the way of others getting the same opportunity ...so whilst theres short term pain in not picking them its the only way England are going to get bowlers who can pick up the slack when they are finally retired and in long series where they cant be relied on to bowl every test.

[Soul Requiem]

James Bracey is not a wicketkeeper, he should be selected purely as a top three batsman.

[msp83]

As someone outside-looking in, what confounds me about the England selections and non-selections is that while they dropped Anderson and Broad, the likes of Pope has got away with for absolutely nothing! Its the batting that has majorly undid England throughout the series and even before that in the summer. Broad was pretty decent throughout the games he got to play in the Ashes. Anderson had his moments though he didn't seem like the old wicket-taking force. So it does seem strange they give the boot to Anderson and Broad, while giving the likes of Pope a free pass. The biggest disaster that can happen to England in this tour is that Pope would go on to do a Ravi Bopara in this series, and play his usual, true mediocre self for a year and a half afterwards. Root, Stokes and Bairstow should be left alone to bat 4, 5 and 6. That's England's best chance, as they still have a decent enough bowling lineup, more often than not.

[alfie]

Hi goose : you were coming in off the long run for that post ! I can't really disagree with any of it , to be honest (except I can never quite accept not having winning the game in front of you as the first objective. I understand the alternative view ; but perhaps living in Australia for so long has conditioned me to instinctively reject it . In this country winning is never put to one side in favour of "development". Except for one Hobart Test against SA which is not remembered fondly !)

Anyway I think you are pretty much on the money with your comments.

One question though : has there really been a massive over reaction on here ? (As opposed to the usual nonsense on BBC HYS ) As far as I can see it is only Duty getting over excited - and he is probably just trying to drive up the betting odds

I think most of us are willing to see where this approach takes us in the short term ; and watch with interest to see what happens in the northern summer...

[VTR]

I just want to know how many more pins has msp stuck in his Ollie Pope doll this morning He's now throwing around the ultimate insult of being compared to Ravi Bopara!

I do understand why you would think he's a bit pants, and should get the boot. The counter argument is he is young and has one of the highest FC averages around. I think they're determined to give him every chance to come good, like they did with Ian Bell back in the day, which did pay off eventually

[alfie]

Without wishing to join msp's crusade to eradicate Pope , I should point out that there is really no comparison with Ian Bell  - other than some physical similarities.

Bell had his problems in 2005 against a strong Australia (Warne ! McGrath ! Lee !) ; but by the time he had played the twenty-odd matches that see Pope averaging 28 , his average was north of forty ; and he had five Test hundreds to his credit.

Pope has showed some promise at times ; but I think he is extremely fortunate to be still in the squad after his efforts in Australia. If England's batting were not at a very low ebb , I suspect he'd be nowhere near the team at present.

I have not given up on him ; but I do think he might have been better served with a break at this time. Look forward to being proved wrong

[JDizzle]

Pope is purely in on the basis there is no pretty much no-one else. Does he even play though? It would be incredibly harsh for the ECB to drag Lawrence around Australia and then the Windies without him getting a game.

I see Will MacPherson is reporting Joe Clarke is one of four ‘Covid’ reserves who will be with the squad. Incredibly cowardly for the ECB not to announce this and own this decision, for it will take rightful criticism.

[Gooseberry]

Popes another no win situation. On one hand we are baulking at England picking chaps with mid 30s FC averages, and on the other baulking at continuing with a chap who has a least scored some runs in a form of cricket.

Will he get better sat at home or playing in a low pressure series? If it were a straight toss between the two Id rather Bairstow be left to get a rest and focus on white ball, and Clarke could easily have been left out. As could the L's.

It wouldn't have been controversial to drop him, but not a clear wrong choice to persist.

[alfie]

Pleased to hear four covid spares are travelling. Pretty well essential I guess. Strange the names haven't been announced ?

As to Pope I trust they know where his head is at present. My main reason for preferring him be left out is that he really looked as shot as Hameed by the end of the Ashes tour and I felt he would benefit from some easy runs for Surrey to get his confidence back. Not sure Roach and co will make batting quite so "low pressure" ... we will see. Though I think JD might have a point about Lawrence maybe in line for First test selection...

[VTR]

Without wishing to join msp's crusade to eradicate Pope , I should point out that there is really no comparison with Ian Bell  - other than some physical similarities.

Bell had his problems in 2005 against a strong Australia (Warne ! McGrath ! Lee !) ; but by the time he had played the twenty-odd matches that see Pope averaging 28 , his average was north of forty ; and he had five Test hundreds to his credit.

Pope has showed some promise at times ; but I think he is extremely fortunate to be still in the squad after his efforts in Australia. If England's batting were not at a very low ebb , I suspect he'd be nowhere near the team at present.

I have not given up on him ; but I do think he might have been better served with a break at this time. Look forward to being proved wrong

Yes, the averages aren't comparable, it was more a reference to being in and out of the side before becoming a fixture. I think Bell debuted in 2004, but didn't become an established pick until 2009, a year which featured him being dropped after being part of that shambolic collapse vs the Windies. Can't exactly remember, but it was something like the fifth coming of Ian Bell before he really fulfilled his potential

I do note though that Pope may simply never be good enough, but he will clearly be given the chances to prove that or otherwise

[Gooseberry]

Pleased to hear four covid spares are travelling. Pretty well essential I guess. Strange the names haven't been announced ?

As to Pope I trust they know where his head is at present. My main reason for preferring him be left out is that he really looked as shot as Hameed by the end of the Ashes tour and I felt he would benefit from some easy runs for Surrey to get his confidence back. Not sure Roach and co will make batting quite so "low pressure" ... we will see.  Though I think JD might have a point about Lawrence maybe in line for First test selection...

He will still be available for the county season. Theres a full week between the end of the tour and start of CC season.

The tour is relatively low pressure compared to the last 3 series, expectation levels and scrutiny are much lower than for home tests and the ashes, especially given the nature of the squad.

Can still make a case either way for Pope but the same could be said for any other new caps getting chucked in. As it is he will have had a good opportunity to play red ball cricket on a consistent basis in the build up to the summer tests, something hes not had for quite some time due to the injury and gap before the Ashes (and only playing 3 tests there, no warm up). Its the best opportunity for him to find some form by playing, something hes done very little of lately!

[Duty281]

As far as I can see it is only Duty getting over excited - and he is probably just trying to drive up the betting odds

It's just exasperating. 2021 was a messed-up year for England in test cricket. Two things in particular worked:

1) Root had the best year of possibly any test batsman in the history of the game. So let's move him up to a position he doesn't play as well in.

2) Anderson had another extraordinary year, second innings issues apart. He averaged around 21, had a good series in Aus, produced numerous brilliant performances...so let's drop him? Apparently this is about building to the 'long-term', except the only new bowler picked is Fisher. Plus long-term doesn't really apply in test cricket. In ODI cricket you try and set the XI to peak for one month every four years; in tests you should never look further ahead than the next series.

The Harmison/Hoggard comparisons in this regard are nonsense. Both of those bowlers, Harmison especially, were past their best and really struggling, whereas Anderson is still top of his game and Broad is still producing commendable performances (despite having little appreciation).

Then you see other comments about how winning is apparently not top of the agenda...what on earth? Winning in the Caribbean carries enormous prestige, only two England sides have managed it in the last 54 years (rarer than Aus in that regard), and the West Indies are not beneath England, though England do usually carry a generally disdainful and vaguely sinister attitude when they take on the West Indies. Add in the fact that England haven't won a test series for a year, and don't have the luxury of picking and choosing what series they should be putting on the agenda (not that any half-decent team would carry such an attitude).

[king_carlos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0cFeO7Jmdc&ab_channel=JarrodKimber

An interesting watch there from Jarrod Kimber diving into some stats on how batting has changed compared to the previous era that was very batting dominant.

England's batting is undeniably pish regardless of the era but it has fallen in a period where batting is really tough. Changes in balls (Dukes swinging non stop, Kookaburra changing seam and lacquer, pink balls), changes in pitches, analysis aiding bowlers more than batters, DRS changing how spinners are used forever. Add in the wobble seam being probably the biggest change to pace bowling since reverse swing. It's a brutal time to be a team that can't bat. It's yet another trend that makes Root's achievements all the more remarkable.

[guildfordbat]

...

Root at three from this squad seems as likely as any , and hopefully won't spook him : the stats that Duty quoted above perhaps don't really mean all that much . I'd suggest that he has batted at four for much the greater part of his best years ,  and most of his outings at three have come against Australia and India  - which might have slightly skewed the figures.  Root's recent best ever year came admittedly at three ; but with him coming in during the first few overs anyway most of the time , so it may not make that much of a difference.  I would still prefer him to stay at four but what are the alternatives ?

...

Hi Alfie and all - Two I would have considered are Tom Westley and Jamie Smith. Had been meaning to give them a shout on Olly's ''possible solutions'' thread.

Always felt that Essex's Westley had a slightly raw deal with England. At least compared to some others around the same time. He played 5 Tests over a 6 or 7 week period against South Africa and the West indies at the end of our 2017 season. Just one fifty and a 40 odd not out in his final innings at number 3 to help England to a 9 wicket win over the Windies and that was it. Given he only averaged a touch above 24, that's not unfair on the face of it. However, two others debuting at or around the same time received (or are still receiving) more opportunities. Stoneman went on to play 11 Tests whilst Malan so far has 22, despite both averaging circa 27.

Not going to die in a ditch over him (before goose's accusations fly in) but I am inclined to think Westley might merit another go. He averaged above 37 in four day county matches last season with 3 tons. He also captained Essex - given Root is continuing as skipper, it wouldn't have done any harm for him to have that sort of experience alongside.

Whilst Westley's ship has probably sailed - he'll be 33 next month -, seems it's too soon for Surrey's 21 year old Smith. Another right hander. I do believe though that it's more a question of when and not if for Smith and England. A versatile batsman who can fit anywhere in the top 6 and intelligently varies his approach to the circumstances of each match. His fc average last season was pushing 44 with, like Westley, 3 centuries to his name. He also keeps wicket although that's not where I see his future.

The two names I've mentioned would not be guaranteed winners in the West Indies but would probably be unlikely to make things any worse. That's what I find so depressing and concerning about the current situation. For all the understandable reactions about our 4.9 - 0 defeat to Australia (thanks to Carlos for that), our biggest problem was not picking the wrong squad to tour there. As JDizzle commented recently, that squad was pretty much the best one anyone could select of those available. It is still right that some get dropped now - hence, why I would have been considering Westley and Smith - if only to emphasise that some performances were unacceptable and cannot continue to be accommodated.

However, so much else beyond the players needs to be put right or at least significantly improved. Including better scheduling, better preparation, better management also (including from the ECB), better selection, better coaching (who incidentally is the England fielding coach, do we even have one?) and better captaincy. Dropping two bowlers with over 1,100 Test wickets between them wouldn't have been top of my things to repair list.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Slightly mental to think that a year ago to the day today, England won the first test in Chennai against India, coming off the back of a good summer in 2020 and the series win in Sri Lanka.

Oh how things change quickly!

[JDizzle]

I think we all know the batting line up is just holding the 5/6 slots until Jack Haynes and Ed Barnard both have 1000 run seasons at New Road this year anyway.

[Duty281]

Slightly mental to think that a year ago to the day today, England won the first test in Chennai against India, coming off the back of a good summer in 2020 and the series win in Sri Lanka.

Oh how things change quickly!

That lovely first test in Chennai and almost all the components that achieved it are now gone - Sibley's 87 as he opened, Root's double century at 4, Anderson and Archer's bowling, and even Bess wrecked the Indian middle order.

[guildfordbat]

In March 2008, England dropped Hoggard and Harmison with nearly 460 Test wickets between them for two blokes who had 63 @ 40 at that point between them. This was after being bowled out for 110 and 81 in their previous two games! However much things change with English cricket, they always stay the same.

Hi JD - fair enough although I see the top 6 on the scorecard for Hoggard's final Test in March 2008 were Cook, Vaughan, Strauss, Pietersen, Bell and Collingwood. For Harmison's final Test in August 2009, Trott and Prior replaced Vaughan and Pietersen. Thus, eight different top 6 batsmen in those two Tests.

Of those eight, all ended their Test careers with an average north of 40 - yes, even Collingwood and Prior! I'm far from certain that the same will apply at the end of their careers to all who bat in the top 6 in our forthcoming Windies tour. I would prefer more confidence in our batting before choosing to experiment with the bowling.

The future is undoubtedly important but it shouldn't be overlooked that the next Test is also always part of the future.

[Gooseberry]

Sure Guilford but they coildve made stokes butler and bairstow run off to do the t20s which were also part of the future at one time.

County cricket doesn't prepare players for tests. Top players can't play every game. Broad and Anderson are touch and go to last a series. That's without considering the impact broads tantrums have.

Something has to give. They have to start backing players and they'll only get better by playing outside County cricket. Right now for red ball that's only tests, till India gets a high paid Premier County league 5 day competition. They have tonprioritise some games over others as they do in all formats, it's just reality of modern cricket and the mess of rhe schedule England ended up with.

Longer term they need to sort out better the scheduling and domestic game, which is the noise they're making. More time working properly with an extended group of elite players.

We've had years of stop gaps like Dench papering over the cracks. The ashes humping wasn't the worst of it really but understandable they chose not to do anything till after.

Its not a case of not caring about this series, of course they will try to win. But also preparing for the future and trying to do wo.ethung about the decline e that's been evident for the best part of a decade now. Top level cricket is moving on and England are regressing.

[guildfordbat]

Sure Guilford but they coildve made stokes butler and bairstow run off to do the t20s which were also part of the future at one time.

County cricket doesn't prepare players for tests. Top players can't play every game. Broad and Anderson are touch and go to last a series. That's without considering the impact broads tantrums have.

Something has to give. They have to start backing players and they'll only get better by playing outside County cricket. Right now for red ball that's only tests, till India gets a high paid Premier County league 5 day competition.  They have tonprioritise some games over others as they do in all formats, it's just reality of modern cricket and the mess of rhe schedule England ended up with.

Longer term they need to sort out better the scheduling and domestic game, which is the noise they're making. More time working properly with an extended group of elite players.

We've had years of stop gaps like Dench papering over the cracks. The ashes humping wasn't the worst of it really but understandable they chose not to do anything till after.

Its not a case of not caring about this series, of course they will try to win. But also preparing for the future and trying to do wo.ethung about the decline e that's been evident for the best part of a decade now. Top level cricket is moving on and England are regressing.

Hi goose - the last para of my first post today touches on some of the key matters imo to be addressed. I actually think we agree on some areas but are clearly at variance regarding the County Championship. Trying to put my natural support for it aside, I struggle to see how future Test players will be developed were it to be scrapped as you appear to suggest. I do have thoughts on how England Test cricket and the County Championship might operate in harmony but regrettably - as they would involve less Tests and/or other internationals - they'll remain pie in the sky for as long as money dominates the ECB's agenda.

[JDizzle]

In March 2008, England dropped Hoggard and Harmison with nearly 460 Test wickets between them for two blokes who had 63 @ 40 at that point between them. This was after being bowled out for 110 and 81 in their previous two games! However much things change with English cricket, they always stay the same.

Hi JD - fair enough although I see the top 6 on the scorecard for Hoggard's final Test in March 2008 were Cook, Vaughan, Strauss, Pietersen, Bell and Collingwood. For Harmison's final Test in August 2009, Trott and Prior replaced Vaughan and Pietersen. Thus, eight different top 6 batsmen in those two Tests.

Of those eight, all ended their Test careers with an average north of 40 - yes, even Collingwood and Prior! I'm far from certain that the same will apply at the end of their careers to all who bat in the top 6 in our forthcoming Windies tour. I would prefer more confidence in our batting before choosing to experiment with the bowling.

The future is undoubtedly important but it shouldn't be overlooked that the next Test is also always part of the future.

Yes - there are considerable differences admittedly. I was reading a quote from an article at the time that said “The both of them may well reflect that from a side that in successive Tests has been bowled out for 81 and 110 it is the two bowlers who get the heave-ho, and it is hard not to sympathise” which just made me laugh as it could apply to so many England sides of the last 20 years.

There are differences with the batting line up, but it is worth noting there are differences with the bowling too. Going in to that game Broad and Anderson averaged over 40 combined. Whereas we now have Robinson (Test average of 21) and Wood (averaging 23 away from home since the start of 2019). Then if it is a permanent end, you have Woakes with his exceptional bowling record in England. I don’t think it is as big a risk as it being made out. Sure, there are doubts over Robinson and Wood but they are mainly fitness rather than performance.

I agree with your final point though about the next Test being the more important. I was pro Bairstow playing at the MCG for that exact reason - I thought he gave England a better chance of winning than Lawrence etc. However, England are rock bottom of the Test Championship and if they want winning that to be an aim then the one that ends in 2025 is a tangible target. Like someone mentioned, it actually gives them a target to aim for like the ODI WC - rather than just an away Ashes series at the expense of everything else. If they don’t see that as their main aim, then there is no real argument for dropping Branderson as an away Ashes shouldn’t take precedence over every other series. England have won in Australia more recently than the Windies!

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I see Angus Fraser was peddling the “building for the next away Ashes” line on Sky today - if they make that the sole objective when the new leadership is appointed we might as well pack up now

[king_carlos]

There have been murmurs going back to players such as Carberry and Compton that Jimmy and Broad whilst fantastic players, are also very dominant voices in the changing room and not always positive ones. I've heard a few comments along the lines of "so and so had some ideas but hadn't taken 400 Test wickets so couldn't have an opinion" when referencing team dynamics in the England changing room.

It wouldn't surprise me if the feeling is they need to see if and how the team functions without them. So much noise seems to be created around their mere presence these days. Are they being selected? What's the next milestone? Is Stuart being grumpy or happy dwarf today? Are they bowling too many overs? Are they bowling too few? It just seems like a constant hurricane of media interference.

Between the weak batting, ridiculous schedule, no spinners and a seam attack packed with bowlers that need handling with kid gloves it's not an easy squad to pick. As seen by some of our suggestions!

With Anderson and Broad unlikely to need their bodies managing less going forward I can understand a desire to develop some seam options we're confident of finishing a Test series. Archer, Stone and Wood all have chronic injuries. Anderson and Broad will presumably only need more management with age. Woakes has shown signs of the workload catching up with him. Robinson is incredibly talented but has late eighties Botham levels of stamina. Surran now has this back issue.

Given seam bowling is our strength the distinct lack of durability is far from ideal. As such I can understand wanting to see if someone such as Mahmood can step up to this level.

[msp83]

Contrary to media speculations of him being ordered to bat 3, Sir Andrew claims that Joe Root in fact insisted to the selection committee, that he absolutely will have to bat at 3 and not anywhere else! Interesting!

[guildfordbat]

And a last word re the keepers.

Foakes' selection ( I would assume he is going to start with the gloves rather than carry drinks ) has delighted many armchair pundits and Purist WK enthusiasts ; and I am happy enough to see him get another shot. But I would hold the celebrations until we see how he performs : no matter if he is the best actual gloveman available , he isn't going to win Tests for England or have a long career unless he can do a job with the bat as well.  He kept on the last West Indies tour , we might recall : made fifty five runs in four innings and took two catches before getting injured.  Small sample  ; but perhaps a warning not to get too carried away in advance ...

Hi Alfie - Yes, I would also expect Foakes to start with the gloves. If Bairstow was going to be the first choice, I would have thought a back up would have been selected with more emphasis on his batting; such as Billings or even Smith.

Whilst Foakes has been good behind the stumps for England on his limited opportunities, he hasn't been as outstanding as he has been in the county game. Hence, my earlier ''beautiful bridesmaid but not a beautiful bride'' comment which Carlos has kindly trumpeted.

I still welcome his call up though. You say, ''the best actual gloveman available, he isn't going to win Tests for England''. Probably true. However, - slightly varying one of my regular bingo calls - whilst a great keeper may not win you a Test, a poor keeper can lose you one.

[alfie]

Yes saw that clarification from Strauss  - which also put the choice to leave A & B out of this tour more understandable (opinions will differ as to the wisdom of this anyway , but it makes their rationale clearer)

If Root is happy and indeed keen to move up to three that is a good thing as it means he won't be conflicted over his task - and as lots of us have noted it probably won't make much difference to the time he gets in

Suppose it moves the debate on to who bats four...but if Root were to continue with his 2021 form at three it really ought to give the middle order a great chance of pushing England to acceptable scores. As a dinosaur I remember when the best bat (May , Harvey , Umrigar - even Sobers in his earlier days - generally batted at three. It does risk losing a key man early but arguably the chance of dominating from the start might be seen as the % play.

Interesting move , anyway.

[alfie]

And a last word re the keepers.

Foakes' selection ( I would assume he is going to start with the gloves rather than carry drinks ) has delighted many armchair pundits and Purist WK enthusiasts ; and I am happy enough to see him get another shot. But I would hold the celebrations until we see how he performs : no matter if he is the best actual gloveman available , he isn't going to win Tests for England or have a long career unless he can do a job with the bat as well.  He kept on the last West Indies tour , we might recall : made fifty five runs in four innings and took two catches before getting injured.  Small sample  ; but perhaps a warning not to get too carried away in advance ...

Hi Alfie - Yes, I would also expect Foakes to start with the gloves. If Bairstow was going to be the first choice, I would have thought a back up would have been selected with more emphasis on his batting; such as Billings or even Smith.

Whilst Foakes has been good behind the stumps for England on his limited opportunities, he hasn't been as outstanding as he has been in the county game. Hence, my earlier ''beautiful bridesmaid but not a beautiful bride'' comment which Carlos has kindly trumpeted.

I still welcome his call up though. You say, ''the best actual gloveman available, he isn't going to win Tests for England''. Probably true. However, - slightly varying one of my regular bingo calls - whilst a great keeper may not win you a Test, a poor keeper can lose you one.

Won't disagree with that point ! However the way they are playing recently England are capable of losing without any adverse action from the keeper... My point was more that given the poor batting lately it is more important than ever that the keeper do a solid job at seven ; and if Foakes cannot do that a more polished display behind the timbers will be neither here or there. But not to prejudge anything : he did well initially in Sri Lanka and hasn't played many games since , so the jury is still out.

Hope it isn't a bad sign that the five games in which he has played since that Sri Lankan tour have resulted in five England defeats !

[Sponsored content]