Ashes 2021/22 and other cricket through the winter of 2021 thread

[VTR]

First topic message reminder :

Don't know anything about that number 9 and 10, are they decent hitters that just happen to be low in the order, or were England again awarding outlier performances to the opposition?

[king_carlos]

In terms of slow bowlers I really wish England had given Benny Howell a go. Yes, his cricinfo profile says right arm medium-fast but he's effectively a fast spinner in how he bowls and the role he fills in teams. Such an interesting and effective cricketer.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

We got to stop Chris Jordan lads, it’s just got to stop

[Duty281]

England's death bowling the usual shambles. 66 runs added in the last four overs. But England like a good chase...

[JDizzle]

I don’t necessarily think Rashid is near the end, unless he decides he is. He is only 33, he doesn’t play red ball cricket anymore and you just have to look at some of ages of spinners still knocking about or how long they did go on for - Tahir, Fawad Ahmed, Brad Hogg. Seems to be something you can do for a long time. Especially if his shoulder injuries are sorted.

The seam bowling is far more worrying. Please pick David Willey.

[AlciG]

Should be an 'easy' chase for England. WI's lost it again in overs 7-14 or so

[Duty281]

England should play Roy at 3. Then we wouldn't have to watch the repeat performance of him getting out in the first over, especially to spinners!

[alfie]

Pretty good chasing at the moment - 78/2 off nine. Vince is going well (crossing fingers) and Moeen we know can step on it once he's set- though he's been struggling so far. Don't want to lose another wicket just yet though.

This Smith is a powerful looking beast , no ? Lively pace...

[alfie]

We must preserve Jofra’s elbow with whatever medical science we can. England’s seam bowling in the power play this tour has been absolutely atrocious

Archer , Wood , Stone...any England fast bowler who is seriously quick seems to be made of glass (rather than the more solid materials their names might suggest).

Or the less breakable ones just aren't much good...

Fast bowling of course always tests the body. But it often seems England tend to cop a few more breaks than most countries among their pace stocks .

Didn't watch the West Indies innings today , but I see Topley went for a few this time... I thought he'd been pretty good so far so won't be too down on him for today.

Spinners are having a good tour though.

[alfie]

Trouble now...Moeen getting out might have been seen as a good thing as he was just not going anywhere ; but Livingstone gone too and with the RRR rising they're running low on batsmen...

[alfie]

Good time for Vince to get only his second t20 fifty...nice finish to that over

Appears West Indies delayed their spin bowling until they'd got rid of Moeen ? They have a fair few options to bowl these later overs !

[alfie]

Hosein has Vince caught in the deep and the hosts are looking heavy favourites now...need 11 per over from here and it is basically down to Billings and Salt to do most of it.
At least Salt is in with a bit of time to get going.

[alfie]

Aha that's it then...Salt lost his head and his wicket. No coming back now.

Disappointing this from England . If Ireland can beat West Indies you'd have thought even this weakened squad might have done better than this. Not that you can take too much from an isolated game ; but over five matches I'd have expected them to prevail .

Shouldn't take too much away from West Indies though. They have batted well enough from all accounts even if much of their bowling still looks pretty ragged.

"Only"48 needed off the last three : less than both side often manage ! But it ain't Moeen and Livingstone at the crease...

[king_carlos]

Argh that full toss should have gone for 6. Combined with the free hit it would've been a huge swing. Sadly not though.

[king_carlos]

Erm... Jordan leaves a free hit

[alfie]

West Indies bowlers doing their best to give England a chance with free hits

Unfortunately the England bats can't hit the free ones !

Closer than it might have been but with Jordan holing out at deep mid wicket I think we can call this one...

[alfie]

Silly game this t20. I know it is "fun" : but a hat trick of three bats caught at deep mid wicket is just not cricket as we know it

Congrats West Indies...

As a development tour I'm not sure this has done much for England.

[alfie]

So did England actually learn anything from that series ?

Topley is a decent alternative to Willey perhaps. And the three spinners who can be fitted into the side can all do that part of their job well enough (brilliantly in the case of Rashid. But we already knew that) But other than that Moeen will produce one exhibition of power hitting along with several total nothings - also hardly news.

As to the batting : KC made the point earlier that the current first choice bats are all over thirty as are Vince and Billings (co-incidentally the only bats who stood up today). Salt batted rather out of position in these games and fired once from three ; Banton once from five. I know t20 is a bit of a raffle but not sure the incumbent bats will feel very threatened by anything done here by the next generation.

I guess it is all experience. But I think we will see a very similar WC side in Australia later this year to the last one - albeit the last hurrah for a few players. Hopefully one or two pace bowling options are going to be out of the physio's rooms at the time...

[VTR]

Yes, we didn't learn anything from that which is disappointing. All of the new players were somewhere between poor and awful and the existing ones all did the things they generally do e.g. Roy being all or nothing, Jordan leaking runs at the death more often than not. A waste of time series proved to be a waste of time

[Gooseberry]

The one thing for England was topely getting to bowl all his overs through the series and aside from the last game getting decent results. They've really struggled with left arm options in recent times so having him step up is pretty handy.

That aside the opportunity it's for the younger squad where we're pretty sparse, and not really taken with both hands. Livingstone, Mahmood and Bamton are yet to prove they should be in a first choice side or would be ready to full shoes when the raft of retirements arrive. Still early in their careers but a way to go yet. Salt batting so low down the order maybe shows what the leadership thinks of him, and he couldn't even fill the finishers role.

So it does increasingly look like dad's army for the world Cup, which isnt all bad considering the missing players are so good. But more of a worry for what happens over the next 2 or 3 years when most key white ball players are 34+

Mention of bracey above...he's going to struggle to get a look in when there's 3 keepers in the core squad (or 4 including banton). Chaps who can bowl a bit of spin like livingstone are more likely to get the spots till retirements start hitting.

[Duty281]

We didn't learn much, that's for sure.

The main lesson was in seeing how bad the seam bowling options are. Garton played one game, looked well below international class, and went for 57 runs in his four overs. Surely no return for him for a little while. Mills, also disappointing, conceded 102 runs from his nine overs in the series; and Mahmood went for 96 off his nine overs. Jordan seems to be making his way out of contention like Tom Curran - conceding 136 runs in his 13 overs bowled. And the four of them only picked up three wickets between them.

Contrast that with the West Indian seamers - Holder, Pollard and Cottrell all managed a series economy between 7-8, and took 23 wickets between them.

Only bright spot in the seamers was Topley, who managed an economy of 7 from 16 overs, albeit it he only took three wickets.

The three spinners did much better for England, and where once the debate was Moeen v Livingstone, perhaps the key should be getting both Moeen and Livingstone into the XI.

Batting-wise, Salt and Banton showed a little bit of what they're about and look good for the future. Morgan's captaincy is the only thing keeping him in the side after a prolonged decline with the bat in this format. Vince did typical Vince things and will stay around in the set-up.

The English cricket schedule is a bit confusing in the summer. As far as I can see England are playing the second test v NZ from the 10th-14th June, the ODIs in the Netherlands between the 17th and 22nd June, and the third test on the 23rd June. A weakened side for the ODIs, then.

But in terms of T20s, three v South Africa and three v India in the summer. Then...wait for it this is good....seven (seven!) T20s in Pakistan in September/October 2022, before (presumably) a couple of warm-up games in Australia in October 2022, before the World Cup starts for England on the 22nd October v Afghanistan in Perth. Around 15 games to get the balance right then, but I'm not sure a seven game series in the subcontinent will help for preparation in Australian conditions.

[JDizzle]

Mills was the real disappointment for me. I’ve been a big fan and he was the outstanding death bowler in the domestic stuff last summer, so for him to go as badly as he did is a concern. As if he is the best in the domestic game, what else do we have?

England will never do it, but the Melbourne Stars (I think it was Green Melbourne) were dominate in the BBL one year with a huge diet of spin bowling. The boundaries are large in Australia, even if the pitches don’t rag. England could just stop trying to pick seamers who aren’t good enough and go spin heavy? Two seamers and Parkinson in for one of the seamers. Livi, Mo, Parkinson, Rashid. Or even Dawson.

Salt enhanced his reputation, and he is now on thy Banton level where they have flashed the talent at international level but need to show it consistently. Hopefully Banton gets back on the T20 circuit and face more 90mph pace, as he showed some weakness vs that.

Livingstone will be disappointed. He just wasn’t fit and it’s such a shame as he could really have kicked on.

Roy was also a disappointment. He was 78/3 (67) in the PP in the series, which isn’t him at all. Banton scored a lot faster 78/4 (55) in the PP. He needs to be going from ball one a bit better.

[JDizzle]

I would desperately be ringing David Bedingham, knocking on his door, throwing stones at his window until he agreed to take up his English passport too.

“WP's David Bedingham would certainly have been one of the players Mpitsang and his co-selector Pat Moroney would have consulted as the 27-year-old is the leading run-scorer in the 4-Day Series with 509 runs at 63.62.

However, Bedingham will not be in action for WP in the T20 Series as he is set to return to United Kingdom this coming week.

"David will be flying back to England this week. He has a three-year contract with Durham and is in the process of qualifying for England and needs to spend a certain amount of days in the country as per the regulations," Bedingham's agent Arthur Turner said.”

Alright then!

https://www.iol.co.za/sport/cricket/domestic/victor-mpitsang-disappointed-proteas-hopeful-david-bedingham-is-returning-to-the-uk-476499da-404e-4c85-8133-368f959ed3bc

[Duty281]

Has been a bleak winter of cricket for England, but one light has been the England U19s who have made the U19 World Cup final, where they'll play favourites India on Saturday.

[alfie]

Ah yes this is the more appropriate place to post re the U19 WC...

Interesting final going on with England recovering from an awful 61/6 to be 184/7 with seven overs left...but the excellent James Rew has just fallen for 95 caught on the boundary so it's 184/8 and going to be scratching to post much over 200 now.

Have to fancy India will be able to run down whatever they finish with now but at least that partnership of 90 for the eight wicket has given us a contest.

[VTR]

It's good to see England teams practicing being 50-5 from an early age!

[Duty281]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/60288338

Collingwood named as temporary coach for the three-match series in the Caribbean. Test squad will be named tomorrow. England actually have a four-day warm-up pencilled in, goodness me.

[dummy_half]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/60288338

Collingwood named as temporary coach for the three-match series in the Caribbean. Test squad will be named tomorrow. England actually have a four-day warm-up pencilled in, goodness me.

Surely playing 14 a side against the rest of the squad, to be played on the beach?

[Gooseberry]

Wonder if the West Indies will get any warm ups? A fair chunk of their side is in India currently getting embarrassed in white ball. Whilst most of Englands batsmen were short of time in the middle if the side isnt completely rebuilt they might well actually have more recent red ball than the hosts.

Also be interesting to see what Collingwood/Strauss do for selections. Hes talked about a "reset" squad, so hopefully not just short term test focused choices. Id say Stoke in particular they need to be careful with, he was clearly rushed back in to bail out the Ashes team even before the first test had gone so wrong. Does he give Burns another chance? Continue trying to teach Hameed how to handle bowling in tests? Put Broanderson in the squad then bench them for the first test just for lols? Make a bold choice for keeper? Pick James Vince again?

Dawson from the U19s will be bringing his experience of critical batting collapses along with fellow cull survivor Trescothick (only two to make it out alive were teammates of Strauss). Any other coaches not good enough to already be busy will be furiously tweeting what a great guy Collingwood is and how smart Strauss was for appointing him.

Its good for England that this will be a low pressure and low expectation tour. I think everyone knew the Ashes was going to be a car crash, but no matter what the circumstances thats always going to come with a lot of criticism and pressure. Hopefully some of the players can relax a bit (in the sense of play with a clear head rather than sit on the beach drinking with Flintoff) and get their game straight and rebuild some self confidence.

[Soul Requiem]

Dawson from the U19s will be bringing his experience of critical batting collapses along with fellow cull survivor Trescothick (only two to make it out alive were teammates of Strauss). Any other coaches not good enough to already be busy will be furiously tweeting what a great guy Collingwood is and how smart Strauss was for appointing him.

Thorpe, Giles and Silverwood were all teammates of Strauss too. As was Ed Smith before them.

[Gooseberry]

Dawson from the U19s will be bringing his experience of critical batting collapses along with fellow cull survivor Trescothick (only two to make it out alive were teammates of Strauss). Any other coaches not good enough to already be busy will be furiously tweeting what a great guy Collingwood is and how smart Strauss was for appointing him.

Thorpe, Giles and Silverwood were all teammates of Strauss too. As was Ed Smith before them.

A fair point , thought Thorpe had gone by the time strauss started ...but he quit just before the Ashes didnt he. Assume he played at Middlesex with Silverwood and Smith?

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

In other news, Jason Roy becomes the first Englishman to make a hundred in the PSL, with one off 49 balls against an attack including Shaheen Afridi, Haris Rauf and Rashid Khan. 2nd fastest in PSL history too.

Out for 116 off 57 balls of Quetta's 167 so far. A sensational knock! Decent timing with the IPL auction this weekend (wild to me someone like Roy has only played 13 IPL games in his career)

Harry Brook had played a good finishing knock for Lahore in the same game too

Will Jacks continues to go nicely in the Bangladeshi Premier League too - believe he is the leading run scorer in that tournament

[Gooseberry]

Roy to open in tests it is then.

[king_carlos]

In other news, Jason Roy becomes the first Englishman to make a hundred in the PSL, with one off 49 balls against an attack including Shaheen Afridi, Haris Rauf and Rashid Khan. 2nd fastest in PSL history too.

Out for 116 off 57 balls of Quetta's 167 so far. A sensational knock! Decent timing with the IPL auction this weekend (wild to me someone like Roy has only played 13 IPL games in his career)

Harry Brook had played a good finishing knock for Lahore in the same game too

Will Jacks continues to go nicely in the Bangladeshi Premier League too - believe he is the leading run scorer in that tournament

Presumably just those issues against spin. Even so I'd have expected him to have played significantly more than that.

There are a lot of very good Indian top order batters about though. Also a lot of very good spinners. Hence the big overseas IPL money tend to go to seam bowling all rounders and pacers. Overseas batters don't tend to get the big buck unless they are genuine superstars such as Jos and AB prior to retirement.

[Duty281]

Rumour mill in full swing with the test squad about to be announced.

Foakes, Lees, Bohannon and Mahmood all suggested to be in the test squad. I've read Parkinson and (surprisingly) Joe Clarke and (even more surprisingly) Livingstone may also get call-ups.

Hameed, Pope and Buttler all likely to be dropped. Plenty of talk about Broad's career reaching the end, commentary duties await, and he too may face the axe. That would be unjustified.

[alfie]

People have been calling "the end for Broad" for ages. He usually has them eating their words soon enough.

Not to say he might not be rested for this tour ; but surely he remains just about a first choice player at home ? Though they've made some pretty stupid calls recently so who knows...

Guess we will see soon enough.

[alfie]

And by the way I approve of the Collingwood role for this tour. Can see him as a possible long term white ball coach if the roles end up split so more responsibility now won't do him any harm - but that is for the future. And I think it would be silly to rush any more upheaval than needed with the series so close at hand.

What happens next can be settled before the home season.

[Gooseberry]

Rumour mill in full swing with the test squad about to be announced.

Foakes, Lees, Bohannon and Mahmood all suggested to be in the test squad. I've read Parkinson and (surprisingly) Joe Clarke and (even more surprisingly) Livingstone may also get call-ups.

Hameed, Pope and Buttler all likely to be dropped. Plenty of talk about Broad's career reaching the end, commentary duties await, and he too may face the axe. That would be unjustified.

Im seeing this being report as being led by what Strauss wants rather than just Collingwood, which makes sense, hes more invested and responsible for the longer term future rather than just results on this tour. It always shoudlve been used as an opportunity for refreshing the side, the Ashes whitewash and bloodletting just makes that even more the case.

Lees as in Alex? I mean he did make 2 & 1 against Aus A which makes him slightly better than Hameed I guess. TBF hes not as old as I thought, feels like an age since he last was mentioned as a possible England opener. But do we really need another player whos barely been good enough for County cricket? Is he capable of getting noticeably better this far into his career?

Bohananon makes more sense, not a player Id really been aware of but has a healthy first class average and actually made runs for the Lions. Also just the right age/experience, not completely raw but still young enough to improve further.

Parkinson I dont see as a big shock, other than England generally being terrified of picking leg spinners full stop. He should've gone to Aus.

Livingstone and Lawrence in the same squad? Two sub 40 first class averaging part time spinners. Hmm. At least Livingstone has done something with his few white ball chances and shown signs of having a head for international cricket. And both young.

Joe Clarke ...do England need another mid order bat with a sub 40 first class average? Thats even without all his baggage and the negative press hes going to bring. Why?

With Bairstow, Billings and Buttler all Being 3 format players and none really deserving a spot as test keeper BFoakes does seem a no brainer. The summer experiment (forcibly shoving him under a bus and reversing over him just to make sure) mightve burnt England to look at him again in the short term, but he did get a Century for the Lions. Foakes deserves the spot on ability, Bracey might be the longer term future and wouldnt be averse at all to him being in the squad but I assume Bairstow will be retained.

Dropping Pope and Hameed altogether feels a touch rough, albeit their test forms been wretched. But its a good way of signalling to them they need to take responsibility for their performances and work on their games not just keep coasting through on a few county runs and everyone else being worse. Hameed feels more like a player who might well never be good enough for test cricket outside Asia. With both its unfortunate England dont have a wider coaching staff, and that itll be difficult for anyone to clearly pass plans to work on and stay in touch to help drive that improvement. Its happened to often that dropped players are just frozen out, its a bigger picture question but one of the things Strauss' new report (not sure what was wrong with the review they just finished) will hopefully highlight, they need a wider elite player system beyond just whoevers in a given squad.

The Broad situation is the NEWS, especially if its not Broads choice to retire. Its a huge call for Collingwood to make ahead of a new coach/selector coming in, although I assume thats come from Strauss. Pure speculation but perhaps driven by reports of Broads attitude and tantrums in the dressing room as much as a desire to force England to move on from their reliance on Broanderson. He will be very spicy as a pundit if he is forced out thats for sure! It'll also be a huge THING if Anderson retires/isnt fit for the summer, questions will inevitably be asked. Conversely itll take the pressure off a new coach/selector to make the big decision vs the long term of giving the supporting cast a go at opening.

Some of it smacks of Strauss just showing hes doing something and not afraid to be radical, but its only really Foakes that seems like something that will make a short term difference for the upcoming series.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Rumour mill in full swing with the test squad about to be announced.

Foakes, Lees, Bohannon and Mahmood all suggested to be in the test squad. I've read Parkinson and (surprisingly) Joe Clarke and (even more surprisingly) Livingstone may also get call-ups.

Hameed, Pope and Buttler all likely to be dropped. Plenty of talk about Broad's career reaching the end, commentary duties await, and he too may face the axe. That would be unjustified.

Joe Clarke? Good lord England, definitely the best way to begin the new era is to call up an average (at best) red ball batsman, who's regressed in that format quite a lot in recent years, with the baggage accompanying him.

Otherwise, all seem to make sense - would like to see Parkinson in and around the camp, and if they fancy Livingstone as a "hunch" pick then fair play, but I wouldn't personally. The others mentioned all make some sense, despite some reservations about them all (we've picked all the ones who look really good on paper and they've flamed out!)

Would also echo thoughts re: Broad - if he wants to retire himself, totally understandable! As you note, he likely has a career in the comms box awaiting (he was very good at that I thought when doing it briefly) but no way should England be "retiring him" early if he wants to play on.

[Jetty]

I read that Strauss, Collingwood and James Taylor will pick the squad and have a vote with Root having input. Crazy that Taylor has such a position. He was' head scout' and had an input with Bobat on the team for the 1st Ashes Test, from 16,000 miles away. Taylor best friend is Woakes. Bowling away from home 52.38.

We need 3 selectors with one being the national selector, e.g. Flower, Atherton and Hussain. Coach and captain sit in the meeting having their say.

[Gooseberry]

The entire remaining 2005 Ashes squad (bar KP) who haven't already been sacked by the ECB to be the new selection panel?

I doubt we will ever see 3 selectors again. It just led to muddles and compromises to satisfy 3 egos, and a squad the people picking the team leaders didn't want. Players who are selected should have the confidence of the coach and the captain who will be leading them, and be selected to meet the needs of the tactics they want to employ, Im not sure what value a panel of 3 old farts adds to that.

I didn't have a great issue with Silverwood becoming judge jury and executioner, the only thing that a selector actually brings to the table is having the time to watch the domestic game during international windows and acting as a sounding board. Having a focused test coach should give them more time to spend going round the first class game/ age grade and lions squads to see players for themselves.

Id rather see the money 3 selectors salaries would cost go to getting in a spin coach.

[Lowlandbrit]

People have been calling "the end for Broad" for ages. He usually has them eating their words soon enough.

Not to say he might not be rested for this tour ; but surely he remains just about a first choice player at home ?  Though they've made some pretty stupid calls recently so who knows...

Guess we will see soon enough.

Seem to remember Robinson getting 'his' new ball in the summer, which seemed a pretty clear sign.

[JDizzle]

The reports of Broad’s demise may be premature! According to Nick Hoult it is Jimmy who is getting the axe for this tour…

[Duty281]

Hopefully, just rested! Not sure when confirmation on the full squad will come, it was supposed to be announced half-an-hour ago.

Hmm...I see the terminology used by the Telegraph is 'axed' not 'rested'. That would be a disgraceful end to the career of one of England's greatest ever cricketers, if true.

[Duty281]

They've dropped both Anderson and Broad.

English cricket is run by clueless morons.

[JDizzle]

I do get flashbacks to when Mark Robinson’s first act as England’s Women’s coach was to axe Charlotte Edwards. She was still clearly England’s best bat and captain - but the time had to come to push forward with a newer, younger generation. And he was proven right and they won a World Cup.

He had Heather Knight. Not sure England have anyone that close to Anderson…

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Apparently 7 or 8 changes expected to the Ashes squad - they’ve really wielded the axe!

Can’t believe they have jettisoned Anderson and Broad for good though. Surely it’ll be a rest for this tour, get them back in during the summer?

[Gooseberry]

People have been calling "the end for Broad" for ages. He usually has them eating their words soon enough.

Not to say he might not be rested for this tour ; but surely he remains just about a first choice player at home ?  Though they've made some pretty stupid calls recently so who knows...

Guess we will see soon enough.

Seem to remember Robinson getting 'his' new ball in the summer, which seemed a pretty clear sign.

Im not sure how many times it needs repeating but the focus is not on winning the next game, its on taking a long term view to making Englands future in test cricket viable again. Beating the West Indies now, or even winning a home test next summer, is not the focus.

Sure its not cut and dried and maybe a case of Strauss just trying to show hes willing to make tough decisions but whether or not Broad and Anderson get in a first choice XI today they aren't going to fix Englands longer term prospects.

Theyve been experimenting with other new ball options for a long time, and frankly for home tests theres ample bowlers with ludicrous averages (which itself is a red flag for why England struggle so much when they don't have grass and a dukes ball). Again, although the dropped pair had gone of the boil a bit whereas these two are actually getting better if anything, the Broad and Anderson era started with the controversial dropping of an established pair.

Disagree with it sure, but there is a point to it. This West Indies series in particular was always a breathing space in a the toughest test schedule England have ever had to try out some different players (as was Sri Lanka), its not a first XI fixture.

[Duty281]

Apparently 7 or 8 changes expected to the Ashes squad - they’ve really wielded the axe!

Can’t believe they have jettisoned Anderson and Broad for good though. Surely it’ll be a rest for this tour, get them back in during the summer?

It sounds like the end for both. Words being thrown around are 'axed', 'dropped', 'jettisoned' and 'the end', not 'rested', 'rotated', 'given a breather' or 'feet up for both'.

It's a disgrace, if so.

[GSC]

In the short term, England are taking a trial squad under temporary management I guess. Remains to be seen what the next coach etc decides

[Gooseberry]

Are you saying that press headlines might be misleading and hyperbolic?

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