Europe (ish) round 4

Starting on Friday night with the Ospreys visit to Welford Road. The Ospreys were somewhat humiliated to lose to a heavily rotated Tigers side in Wales but have since then been impressive beating Montpelier home and away. Tigers have beaten Clermont home and away but had issues with injuries and some shocking league form (as well as losing their head coach and defence coach).

The teams for this one showing a good number of internationals and Owen Williams returns to Welford Road. Tigers still very short on outside backs but the return to the bench of Montoya is a huge boost, particularly with the 6N just round the corner. The second row could be a fun watch with Tigers sporting Chessum and Henderson who have both been selected for the 6N and who are 23 or under Vs AWJ and Beard the experienced Welsh campaigners. Nicky Smith Vs Cole will be a fun watch, Smith caused Heyes all sorts of issues in the last game, on rare occasions he even did it legally, and having been snubbed by Gatland he'll want to lay a marker down against Dan Cole who's managed to force his way back into England contention at 35 (he could reach his century of caps as well).

STARTING XV
15 Freddie Steward [66]
14 Harry Potter [55]
13 Matt Scott [56]
12 Dan Kelly [50]
11 Harry Simmons [28]
10 Handré Pollard [3]
9 Jack van Poortvliet (vc) [59]
1 James Whitcombe [33]
2 Charlie Clare [67]
3 Dan Cole (vc) [303]
4 Ollie Chessum [42]
5 Cameron Henderson [26]
6 Hanro Liebenberg (c) [73]
7 Tommy Reffell [90]
8 Olly Cracknell [13]

REPLACEMENTS
16 Julián Montoya [32]
17 Dan Richardson [8]
18 Will Hurd [17]
19 Harry Wells [170]
20 Sean Jansen [14]
21 Ben Youngs [293]
22 Jimmy Gopperth [8]
23 Charlie Atkinson [9]

Ospreys: C Evans; Cuthbert, Collins, Hawkins, Giles; O Williams, Morgan-Williams; Smith, Lake, Botha, Beard, AW Jones, R Davies, Tipuric (capt), J Morgan.

Replacements: Baldwin, G Thomas, Henry, Sutton, Morris, Aubrey, K Williams, North.

Still find it baffling that whoever wins Pool B of the challenge cup could face a team from Pool A, in the knock outs, who haven't even won a game...

Ref is shocking at the breakdown for Ospreys!

I wish Austin Heaky would wait until he sees the replays to critique ref decisions.

Owen Williams should have had a yellow for preventing a try & that last crucial pen was in from the side.

I don't really get some of Leicester's play in this game.  They seem to have continually kicked the ball away in attacking positions throughout.  Whilst also turning down easy kicks at goal.  They could be relatively safe right now.

All this late pressure also came from a stupid pen given away by Youngs not stopping when the ref clearly shouted no hands in the ruck ...

Fair play to Tigers if they’ve held on and won this, that’s bloody brilliant.

I’ll have to agree with Austin on this one…

I couldn't say either way to be honest

Went down to the wire… not a lot in it in both fixtures between these teams. Ospreys have managed a landmark in Europe for Welsh teams, this isn’t to be sniffed at.

3 Welsh open-sides we’re all quality today.

Tigers will be kicking themselves - should really have won that.

Congrats Ospreys, has to be one of their greatest wins. Leicester's defense on the line at the end was simply immense. What a game.

Tigers have only themselves to blame for putting themselves in that position to lose that game. Good Ospreys defence but daft play by the Tigers
I’m glad that final decision wasn’t more crucial because it wasn’t clear & obvious.

Surprised the referee gave it as I didn't think there was anything clear, but in a way it was justice as Leicester's continual infringing in those final moments overstepped the mark.

What a run Ospreys are having - beat Montpellier home and away, now they've taken down Leicester away. Tipuric was extraordinary.

mikey_dragon wrote:Went down to the wire… not a lot in it in both fixtures between these teams. Ospreys have managed a landmark in Europe for Welsh teams, this isn’t to be sniffed at.

3 Welsh open-sides we’re all quality today.

Yep think they are going to steal a lot of ball in the 6N

It seems to me English teams have been on the rough end twice in two week in Europe here. I think back to Aaron Morris against Racing Metro, you couldn't conclusive prove that he didn't get the ball down and it was ruled out and yet I don't see how you could say the ball was a 100% down in the Leicester match if you didn't see it on the line in the first place.

Austin Healey seen it.

Cumbrian wrote:It seems to me English teams have been on the rough end twice in two week in Europe here.  I think back to Aaron Morris against Racing Metro, you couldn't conclusive prove that he didn't get the ball down and it was ruled out and  yet I don't see how you could say the ball was a 100% down in the Leicester match if you didn't see it on the line in the first place.

Did you see the ARs face when the ref said do we all agree?

I don't see how he could possibly not have gotten the ball down. Even Healy called it as a try which is damning in itself.

And yes re Morris, TMO last week could no way be sure the ball wasn't down when the player rolled over as there was no shot of anything under the ball to rule it out and on-field decision was try ...

Heaf wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:It seems to me English teams have been on the rough end twice in two week in Europe here.  I think back to Aaron Morris against Racing Metro, you couldn't conclusive prove that he didn't get the ball down and it was ruled out and  yet I don't see how you could say the ball was a 100% down in the Leicester match if you didn't see it on the line in the first place.

Did you see the ARs face when the ref said do we all agree?

I don't know, I'm no Leicester fan (although I do tend support English teams in Europe), but I genuinely couldn't see a try there.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I don't see how he could possibly not have gotten the ball down. Even Healy called it as a try which is damning in itself.

Have you been watching Healy commenting on many Tigers' matches lately? He seems to go against them all the time now, very odd ...

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I don't see how he could possibly not have gotten the ball down. Even Healy called it as a try which is damning in itself.

I wouldn't go on record agreeing with Healy

If anything it would suggest that the ball was help up two or three feet off the floor.

Cumbrian wrote:

Heaf wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:It seems to me English teams have been on the rough end twice in two week in Europe here.  I think back to Aaron Morris against Racing Metro, you couldn't conclusive prove that he didn't get the ball down and it was ruled out and  yet I don't see how you could say the ball was a 100% down in the Leicester match if you didn't see it on the line in the first place.

Did you see the ARs face when the ref said do we all agree?

I don't know, I'm no Leicester fan (although I do tend support English teams in Europe), but I genuinely couldn't see a try there.

The AR clearly wasn't convinced either from the expression on his face.

Only the ref could see the ball on the line and I think that's only because he wanted to. Tigers only have themselves to blame, repeatedly let the Ospreys back into the game when we should have put it to bed well before the 90th minute.

And Youngs clearly needs to get his hearing tested ...

Cumbrian wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I don't see how he could possibly not have gotten the ball down. Even Healy called it as a try which is damning in itself.

I wouldn't go on record agreeing with Healy

If anything it would suggest that the ball was help up two or three feet off the floor.

Fair enough . He is known over here as being incredibly biased towards English sides, which is of course understandable. That's why I said it was damming.

His commenting on Tigers particularly really seems odd - almost as if he trying to prove he doesn't have a bias but going really too far - did you hear him tonight trying to point out a head shot by a Tigers player, but then seeing the replay from another angle and realising it was nowhere near?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I don't see how he could possibly not have gotten the ball down. Even Healy called it as a try which is damning in itself.

I wouldn't go on record agreeing with Healy

If anything it would suggest that the ball was help up two or three feet off the floor.

Fair enough . He is known over here as being incredibly biased towards English sides, which is of course understandable. That's why I said it was damming.

He's professionally gauche, he is generally biased (towards Leicester in-fact!) but even as an English supporter I view him as an oddity.

Heaf wrote:His commenting on Tigers particularly really seems odd - almost as if he trying to prove he doesn't have a bias but going really too far - did you hear him tonight trying to point out a head shot by a Tigers player, but then seeing the replay from another angle and realising it was nowhere near?

His commentating is certainly unique, to put it mildly. I feel like BOD goes out of his way too, to not seem bias when he commentates on Leinster. It's actually way more annoying than just being biased where you really should be.

I'm not a Tigers fan but it does seem to me he takes against them fairly often - and there are plenty of comments on a Tigers forum that have the same impression ... it is odd

Heaf wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:It seems to me English teams have been on the rough end twice in two week in Europe here.  I think back to Aaron Morris against Racing Metro, you couldn't conclusive prove that he didn't get the ball down and it was ruled out and  yet I don't see how you could say the ball was a 100% down in the Leicester match if you didn't see it on the line in the first place.

Did you see the ARs face when the ref said do we all agree?

Still waiting for the day that a touch judge disagrees with the referee's decision!

Cumbrian wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I don't see how he could possibly not have gotten the ball down. Even Healy called it as a try which is damning in itself.

I wouldn't go on record agreeing with Healy

If anything it would suggest that the ball was help up two or three feet off the floor.

Fair enough . He is known over here as being incredibly biased towards English sides, which is of course understandable. That's why I said it was damming.

He's professionally gauche, he is generally biased (towards Leicester in-fact!) but even as an English supporter I view him as an oddity.

No doubts Austin is Leicester (and usually England) from the top of his head to the dirty stuff under his toenails.  But we know where he is coming from, and he is usually respectful in his comments (whether right or wrong), so I really have no problem and actually enjoy him.  And that comes from a Saints guy.

To be fair - despite his oddities I don't mind him or Ben Kay.  Dayglo on the other hand I find quite hard work at times ....  I think my favourite is Flats, and Topsy is coming along nicely ...

Hell of a win for Ospreys. They have a club squad to rival a lot of teams, despite being hamstrung by their own union. Toby Booth is doing a good job and has assembled a tidy squad on the sly.

I’m sure budgets will play a part later on, but it’s a great achievement to do what they’ve done already, as they’ve won at two very tough places.

Austin isn't pro Leicester. Well maybe outside of commentary but in commentary he's previously admitted that he consciously criticises Tigers more because he used to play for them between that and his fall back position of it was better in his day then it's fairly easy for him to come across as almost anti Tigers at times. Austin is a big believer in innovative attack as well which Tigers have lacked recently so they aren't going to be on his good side much.

It's worth nothing that the Tigers offy will moan about most things mind so take views on their with a pinch of salt.

It's a huge turnaround from where Ospreys were previously, at the start of this season and in previous seasons. Booth must be a great forwards coach, Ospreys have been dominant up front since he came in.

Contraversial opinion, Ospreys look a whole lot better without Webb, Anscombe and Watkin.

mikey_dragon wrote:It's a huge turnaround from where Ospreys were previously, at the start of this season and in previous seasons. Booth must be a great forwards coach, Ospreys have been dominant up front since he came in.

Contraversial opinion, Ospreys look a whole lot better without Webb, Anscombe and Watkin.

Hasn't the turnaround come since Owen Williams came in at 10? Thought he controlled things really well for Ospreys last night and in the games Vs Montpellier I saw. Young Walsh who was in before that seemed to struggle a bit tactically. Webb's replacement at 9 wasn't particularly good last night getting mugged off by JVP for Tigers first score, Webb quite good in the other games before injury.

I don't think Ospreys were particularly dominant (maybe in the scrum as the game wore on) but they were fantastic at disrupting and worked very hard for each other. I'm sure Gatland was hoping that game would sort his openside selection for him but all three had great games. It certainly felt like the Ospreys were more cohesive last night and a lot more confident, they've got some nice momentum going it's probably a bit unlucky for them they are about to hit the 6N period when really they'd want to just keep this team playing as they are looking really tough to beat.

Which match to watch? Gonna go Northampton until its 0 0 after 70 mins and the Harlequins match is 45 52.

Fs. 3 0 and 14 5.

Yes Sam I’d say the turnaround has also coincided with Owen Williams coming in. Webb wouldn’t have been mugged off by JVP, but Morgan-Williams is quicker. If someone told Webb to stop daydreaming at every breakdown then he’d be a whole lot better. JVP was pretty good last night, Tigers’ defence is solid. A shame we didn’t steal Sinfield.

I don’t think Ospreys dominated Tigers up front, I doubt many can do that. Ospreys did enough though, and aside from Bulls they usually beat teams up front.

I couldn’t tell if that try was scored at the end either, the French ref was a little inconsistent throughout.

I didn't think the ref was to bad. He let a lot of things go and I was annoyed Tigers didn't get a couple of things but I suspect the Ospreys fans would have been equally annoyed. Ref certainly lost his head towards the end of the game.

The Ospreys have got a nice mix of experience and youth in that pack. Gives them plenty of nuisance but also plenty of mobility. The pace in the backline with the dual playmakers at 10 and 12 is quite a nice combination.

I wouldn't worry to much about Wales missing out on Sinfield, Forshaw is a good defence coach in his own right. Expect some big double tackles from the Welsh forwards this 6N. Sinfield is the more inspirational but given the number of caps some of those Welsh players have motivation shouldn't be an issue.

Stupid challenge from Dingwall. May well be a red.

Yup. Looks a red.

Bonkers game between Quins and Sharks, it's like basketball or sevens. Quins struggling with the referee's concept of the ball being out, which just cost them seven points, and the Sharks getting pinged at too many breakdowns. Lots of tries still to come, you'd think.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Stupid challenge from Dingwall. May well be a red.

He's always to upright. He's caught in two minds and then it's always dangerous so clear red.

Trying to watch both matches at the same time so only saw the last Sharks' try without sound ... why was the ball deemed out, was it due to Marler not having shoulder contact as the ball was still clearly in front of the back foot when Etzebeth ran around?

Heaf wrote:Trying to watch both matches at the same time so only saw the last Sharks' try without sound ... why was the ball deemed out, was it due to Marler not having shoulder contact as the ball was still clearly in front of the back foot when Etzebeth ran around?

Yes, I believe that was the reason. He said Marler wasn't bound, that's the second time Quins were caught out by something they'd get away with in the Prem.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Stupid challenge from Dingwall. May well be a red.

He's always to upright. He's caught in two minds and then it's always dangerous so clear red.

Yep was always going to be red - however apparently Piers Francis did the same last night but only got yellow. Haven't seen the tackle so don't know why - still lacking consistency?