Champions Cup 2024 Format

The Champions Cup will be competed for by 24 elite clubs with eight representatives from the TOP 14, eight from the Gallagher Premiership and eight from the BKT United Rugby Championship (URC). (See qualifiers below)

The clubs will be divided into four pools of six by means of a draw with Champions Cup winners, Stade Rochelais, League winners, Saracens and Munster Rugby, as well as the winners of Saturday’s TOP 14 final between Stade Rochelais and Stade Toulousain, making up Tier 1 with each club drawn into a separate pool at the outset.

If Stade Rochelais happen to win the TOP 14 title, then the Champions Cup final runners-up, Leinster Rugby, will be included in Tier 1.

The remaining 20 clubs make up Tier 2 and will be either drawn or allocated into the four pools by means of an ‘open’ draw with the following in-built key principles:

There can only be a maximum of two clubs from the same league in each pool.
Clubs from the same URC Shield cannot be in the same pool. Therefore, the Irish qualifiers – Munster Rugby, Leinster Rugby, Ulster Rugby and Connacht Rugby – will each be in a different pool, and similarly, the DHL Stormers and the Vodacom Bulls from South Africa will be kept apart during the draw.
There will be no matches between clubs from the same league, so for the purposes of creating the fixtures, each club will play four matches against four different clubs who are not from the same league either home or away during the pool stage.
At the conclusion of the pool stage, the four highest-ranked clubs from each pool will qualify for the Round of 16 and the clubs ranked number five in each of the pools will qualify for the knockout stage of the EPCR Challenge Cup.

The EPCR Challenge Cup will be competed for by 18 clubs with eight representatives from the URC, six from the TOP 14, two from the Premiership, plus two invited clubs which will be announced shortly. (See clubs below)

The clubs will be drawn or allocated into three pools of six with two TOP 14 clubs in each pool. Clubs from the same URC Shield and from the Premiership, as well as the two invitees, will be kept apart during the draw.

Clubs will play four different opponents home or away with same-league matches being kept to a minimum, and only impacting clubs from the URC. The four highest-ranked clubs from each of the pools will qualify for the knockout stage.

The pool draws for the 2023/24 tournaments will take place at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium on Wednesday 21 June and will be broadcast live on EPCRugby.TV. Further details and timings will be communicated shortly.

2023/24 CHAMPIONS CUP QUALIFIERS
TOP 14 – Stade Rochelais, Stade Toulousain, Racing 92, Union Bordeaux-Bègles, Lyon, Stade Français Paris, RC Toulon, Aviron Bayonnais

GALLAGHER PREMIERSHIP – Saracens, Sale Sharks, Leicester Tigers, Northampton Saints, Harlequins, Exeter Chiefs, Bath Rugby, Bristol Bears

BKT UNITED RUGBY CHAMPIONSHIP - Munster Rugby, DHL Stormers, Leinster Rugby, Ulster Rugby, Glasgow Warriors, Vodacom Bulls, Connacht Rugby, Cardiff Rugby

2023/24 EPCR CHALLENGE CUP QUALIFIERS
BKT UNITED RUGBY CHAMPIONSHIP - Cell C Sharks, Emirates Lions, Benetton Rugby, Edinburgh Rugby, Ospreys, Scarlets, Dragons RFC, Zebre Parma

TOP 14 - Castres Olympique, ASM Clermont Auvergne, Montpellier Herault Rugby, Section Paloise, USAP, Oyonnax Rugby

GALLAGHER PREMIERSHIP - Gloucester Rugby, Newcastle Falcons

INVITED – Two clubs to be confirmed

2023/24 WEEKENDS

Round 1 – 8/9/10 December 2023

Round 2 – 15/16/17 December 2023

Round 3 – 12/13/14 January 2024

Round 4 – 19/20/21 January 2024

Round of 16 – 5/6/7 April 2024

Quarter-finals – 12/13/14 April 2024

Semi-finals – 3/4/5 May 2024

EPCR Challenge Cup final – Friday 24 May 2024, Tottenham Hotspur Stadium

Champions Cup final – Saturday 25 May 2024, Tottenham Hotspur Stadium

Utter Dogs breakfast.

How have they come up with an even worse format to last year?

The move to Switzerland has been a total failure.

I am sure I am not alone in having little interest in the Heineken Cup prior to the knock out stages

So 4 pools of 6. Does that mean each team actually plays each other once or is this a scenario where half the pool plays each other twice and never meets the other teams in the actual pool. Because if that is the case surely its 8 pools of 3?

I'll be honest here. They are ruining what was once the best club tournament in World Rugby. It's so sad to see what it has become. Can't say I'll be watching much of this similar to last year. It's a total mess.

Also worth pointing out if it is in fact 8 pools of 3 teams then the seeding makes no sense. Surely you either have 4 seeds or 8. 6 means if it is in fact 8 pools of teams then your missing 2 seeds. Thus meaning 2 of the group won't have seeds in them so will be easier than the other groups. If it is 4 pools and all 6 play each other then some groups will get 2 seeds and some 1 again creating clear advantages.

Someone needs to explain to EPCR what the a pool group actually means. It involves playing all the teams in it. It's not a pool if half the teams don't meet each other.

My understanding is that it is 4 groups each with 6 teams.
Each team will have four games.
They wont play any teams in the group that are from the same league as them. Leaving 4 other teams in the group for each team to play.
They will play those teams once each, with 2 of those games at home and 2 away.

In other words it’s even more complicated than before.

For example let’s say Group A was La Rochelle, Toulouse, Ulster, Glasgow, Sale and Leicester.
Ulster would play 2 of Sale, Leicester, La Rochelle and Toulouse at home and 2 of them away. They would not play Glasgow.

Neil that's about right.

Also, so for the 4 pools, there will be;
2 English clubs
2 French clubs
1 Irish club
(choice of Bulls, Stormers, Glasgow, Cardiff and these four teams have to be in different pools)

Each group will only have one of LaRochelle, Saracens, Munster and Toulouse/Leinster.

So if you play 4 rounds, being two at home and two away, does that mean (for a URC side), it would be home to a french team and english team and away to a french team and english team? Or could it be home to both French, away to both English? Doesn't seem to be clear. I can see it really popping off for whichever four teams end up travelling to SA for their games.

There is a piece of me that thinks having the two SA teams separated is missing a trick. If you had both of those in an away trip for round 1-2 or 3-4 you could put together a class package tour.

Surely Georgia's black lions are getting one of the wildcard spots in the challenge Cup. Though they'll probably give the spots to two currie Cup sides, knowing the EPCR.

So let me get this right.

The EPRC met, they all wrote down a different plan, cut up those plans, threw them in a bag and picked the bits at random then got Tracy on reception to type it all up, and send it out as a press release .

Genius

I think it's better than the previous version.

1. You now play against 4 out of 5 rather than 2 out of 12 meaning teams have more control.
2. Unlikely to have a Monpieller win one game and make it through.
3. Much more 6N feel of each game matters and no do overs.
4. Top seed is from league winners and best placed Champions Cup team
5. Open draw means we will get groups of death.

Hopes
1. I would like to see the the winners of the Currie Cup and winners of the European Super Cup.
2. I kind of want to see teams who make the semis in their leagues be rewarded, while I like the pool of death if Toulouse, Bordeaux, Sale, Tigers, Stormers all end up in Leinster's group who gets the reward.

But if you only play 4 out of 5 teams in a pool, it's still not a pool!

The concept of pools is each team plays all the teams in it.

Welshmushroom wrote:But if you only play 4 out of 5 teams in a pool, it's still not a pool!

The concept of pools is each team plays all the teams in it.  

It's like the old Anglo-English cup where you'd have 1 Welsh team & 3 English sides in a pool but you would play teams from another pool - you could qualify for the semi finals without winning a game!

Welshmushroom wrote:But if you only play 4 out of 5 teams in a pool, it's still not a pool!

The concept of pools is each team plays all the teams in it.  

The only team you ate not playing is from your own league as clubs and fans don't want it.

Before it was stacked in favour of the top teams of the league. Ospreys had to play the top team in France and England while Bulls played 7th or 8th which wasn't fair.

This way on law of averages you have a strong and weak team for the other two leagues so would hope to get 2 home wins and that means you are 3rd or second in the group.

8 groups of three doesn't work as 1 team sits out each week which would cause havoc for planning so this way as a fan you are going to play 4 teams so should have more variety.

Keeping shield apart for the URC means an Irish person is looking at all the groups.

I hope that teams finishing on the same points comes down to the teams head to head, for teams from the same league do the usual stuff of tries etc

As long as we have 8 teams from each league the only way to di it the old way .and not cause havoc is each round would be league v league (R1 URC V Prem, Top 14 play their league) which is even worse. Also how do you choose the ranks of the 3 teams in a pool. At least with 4 pools open draw less of an issue.

We already know that each of the 4 groups will have an Irish team and another URC team. The teams 2-7 in the URC and Prem are much of the same and doesn't really matter who you get. T14 is 3-8. Leinster are the top team in the URC.

Only worries I have is
1. Two of La Rochelle, Toulouse & Leinster end up in the same group. Other top seeds are more than beatable.
2. That one group will be made up entirely from teams that made their league semis.
3. That 1 & 2 will happen in the same group.

Oakdene wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:But if you only play 4 out of 5 teams in a pool, it's still not a pool!

The concept of pools is each team plays all the teams in it.  

It's like the old Anglo-English cup where you'd have 1 Welsh team & 3 English sides in a pool but you would play teams from another pool - you could qualify for the semi finals without winning a game!

This fixes alot of the issues and means if you only win one game you are most likely finishing 5th, in rare circumstances 4th. Under the old system Ulster made it in with one win as did Monpieller the year before
There will be more top class games as teams are not kept apart. Now we will have more exciting games in the group stages. Either Leinster or Toulose must play top teams. Cardiff or Bristol are not playing half their games against either Toulouse or La Rochelle.

I think once the draw is made we will be alot more excited as who they play. As a Munster fan I would love Sale & Qinns but previously it would be Bath or Bristol twice.

https://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/all/domestic-club-rugby-union/epcr-champions-cup/378222/heineken-pull-plug-on-europe/

Seems like Heineken have seen enough and aren't renewing their sponsorship deal.
Is there a chance that our sponsorship deals will have decreased from the ERC days, depending on that kind of sponsor replaces Heineken?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Is there a chance that our sponsorship deals will have decreased from the ERC days, depending on that kind of sponsor replaces Heineken?

I think that is the case.
From memory the new set up wanted 4 different sponsors each paying a 1/3 of the old price.
Heineken signed up to it but no one else step forward.
They went back to Heineken and asked for money - Heineken said no.
Net result sponsorship dropped considerably.

I really don't see the problem with 8 groups of 3.
As long as the respective leagues know the dates well in advance it would not be rocket science to arrange matches accordingly.
Two teams from the same league who don't play one weekend can play a league match instead.
By my calculation that only gives you four extra fixtures to rearrange per league.
We had 6 European weekends in the past and coped then so why not now?

If were being honest here part of the problem of it is about half the teams in the Champions Cup won't even try to give it a go. What made the original format so good to begin with is that most years there were at least 3 teams in each group who had ambitions to qualify for the Qtrs. The real issue has been the increase of teams from both England and France but that didn't really improve the standards. I understand that both leagues wanted to secure more games for their members to make money on but in adversely affected the rugby. That in turn impacted its prestige.

What were left with now is about 5 or 6 teams who realistically think they can win this thing. Its seriously cheapened the product.

The real problem is they messed with the formula that was growing and working. What we have now is barely important enough for 2 out of the 3 qualifying leagues to care about.

At this point it won't even matter what they do. I think they ruined it. Such a shame for what was the best club competition in the world 10+ years ago.

Brendan wrote:
Only worries I have is
1. Two of La Rochelle, Toulouse & Leinster end up in the same group.  Other top seeds are more than beatable.

God help the third team in that group.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Brendan wrote:
Only worries I have is
1. Two of La Rochelle, Toulouse & Leinster end up in the same group.  Other top seeds are more than beatable.

God help the third team in that group.

Surely though if that's the case then it's going to become even more pointless for anyone to try to compete in that specific group. So we may see even more dilution in quality of the tournament.

Its the English teams in that group who will suffer the most.
The other URC, in the group, will not have to play Leinster.
The 2nd French team will not have to play Toulouse or La Rochelle.

It will be one of Stade Rochelle/Toulouse and Scarcens with Leinster as a 2nd in one group (as Munster are the 4th top seed and cant draw Leinster) with the rest being open draw could well end up with someone like Stormers Tigers Lyon in that group also. Could make for a group of death.

Most French teams are well known for putting out stroger sides at home and weaker ones away, so if your two away games are in France its much more difficult. At least with the old home and away it balanced it out somewhat.

From what I understand is EPRC durning covid gave away a week in Oct, to gain an extra week (round 16) in April and made it a week shorter as well, and now theres zero chance of them getting that extra week back in Oct to go back to the old format.

The current set up favours the French with the knockouts all taking place durning their regular season, whereas it coincides with URC and Prem knockouts, giving Frech teams a major advantage in being able to rest up players for the HCup knock outs and having them fit for Top 14 knockouts after.

Even if URC and Prem backed moving it to after their knockouts (and hence durning Top 14 knock outs), would it simply be seen as a nuisance by French teams and be further devalued?

Maybe it should be run to complete before end of January?

Kingshu wrote: if your two away games are in France its much more difficult.

I don't think that is how it works.

I think you get 1 Home and 1 Away game against the two teams from the other two league.
So Ulster, for example, will get 1 Home and 1 Away against the 2 English and likewise for the 2 French sides in their pool

Hopefully thats how it works all they have said is

"Each club will play four matches against four different clubs who are not from the same league either home or away during the pool stage."

They dont mention is the home and away open draw or home against one from each league away agaisnt one in each league, but hopefully common sense prevails.

Kingshu wrote:Hopefully thats how it works all they have said is

"Each club will play four matches against four different clubs who are not from the same league either home or away during the pool stage."

They dont mention is the home and away open draw or home against one from each league away agaisnt one in each league, but hopefully common sense prevails.

You do realise we are talking about Rugby?????

See irish times guy posted Leinsters pool as containing Toulouse, Racing 92, Cardiff, sale sharks at 12.12 and deleted it, be intresting if that actually is the pool

Kingshu wrote:See irish times guy posted Leinsters pool as containing Toulouse, Racing 92, Cardiff, sale sharks at 12.12 and deleted it, be intresting if that actually is the pool

I think there was a dummy draw earlier.

Would be typical for Cardiff, back in the top comp and grouped with both Toulouse and Leinster!

Oakdene wrote:

Kingshu wrote:See irish times guy posted Leinsters pool as containing Toulouse, Racing 92, Cardiff, sale sharks at 12.12 and deleted it, be intresting if that actually is the pool

I think there was a dummy draw earlier.

Pool 2 is shaping up with same teams, eeek

Must have been dummy draw real one is

POOL 1: Saracens, Union Bordeaux Begles, Bulls, Bristol Bears, Connacht, Lyon

POOL 2: Toulouse, Cardiff, Bath, Racing 92, Harlequins, Ulster

POOL 3: Munster, Aviron Bayonnais, Glasgow, Exeter Chiefs, RC Toulon, Northampton

POOL 4: La Rochelle, Stade Francais, Leicester Tigers, DHL Stormers, Leinster, Sale Sharks

Kingshu wrote:It will be one of Stade Rochelle/Toulouse and Scarcens with Leinster as a 2nd in one group (as Munster are the 4th top seed and cant draw Leinster) with the rest being open draw could well end up with someone like Stormers Tigers Lyon in that group also. Could make for a group of death.

Nearly got it lol

Kingshu wrote:Must have been dummy draw real one is

POOL 1: Saracens, Union Bordeaux Begles, Bulls, Bristol Bears, Connacht, Lyon

POOL 2: Toulouse, Cardiff, Bath, Racing 92, Harlequins, Ulster

POOL 3: Munster, Aviron Bayonnais, Glasgow, Exeter Chiefs, RC Toulon, Northampton

POOL 4: La Rochelle, Stade Francais, Leicester Tigers, DHL Stormers, Leinster, Sale Sharks

You got there just before me Kingshu, bad draw for Ulster. Currently we might beat Cardiff out of that lot.

We dont play Cardiff. All the other have the advantage of playing them, but as in same league we dont

Have to see how the coachi g has changed in new season but I don't hold out much hope of a big change without new faces. Just need to finish above Cardiff and Bath to make the knockouts.

Pool 4's a tough one. Would Leinster have to play Stormers?

Kingshu wrote:We dont play Cardiff. All the other have the advantage of playing them, but as in same league we dont

I should have kept up to date with the intricacies of the new format but to be honest as soon as I start reading those things I lose the ability to read very quickly. So we're in a pool of 6 but really only a pool of 5 and in which 4 of the other teams get the advantage of playing the weakest team (sorry Cardiff fans but it's true). To finish above Cardiff should be something we expect, to finish above Bath however is made more difficult by the fact they get a points haul when they play Cardiff. It's bad enough that the URC is skewed in this way, now Europe too. Not good, not even and not fair enough that I want to stamp my feet and shout.

In order to keep this round to only four matches
with pools of six teams , presumably Pool 1 play Pool 2 but not against the teams in their own league.
Is that right ?

Pete330v2 wrote:

Kingshu wrote:We dont play Cardiff. All the other have the advantage of playing them, but as in same league we dont

I should have kept up to date with the intricacies of the new format but to be honest as soon as I start reading those things I lose the ability to read very quickly. So we're in a pool of 6 but really only a pool of 5 and in which 4 of the other teams get the advantage of playing the weakest team (sorry Cardiff fans but it's true). To finish above Cardiff should be something we expect, to finish above Bath however is made more difficult by the fact they get a points haul when they play Cardiff. It's bad enough that the URC is skewed in this way, now Europe too. Not good, not even and not fair enough that I want to stamp my feet and shout.

I'm the exact same, I've no idea what the format is for the group stage. It's all so underwhelming.

Also the CC groups were announced and still no word on who the invited teams are...

Pete330v2 wrote:

Kingshu wrote:We dont play Cardiff. All the other have the advantage of playing them, but as in same league we dont

I should have kept up to date with the intricacies of the new format but to be honest as soon as I start reading those things I lose the ability to read very quickly. So we're in a pool of 6 but really only a pool of 5 and in which 4 of the other teams get the advantage of playing the weakest team (sorry Cardiff fans but it's true). To finish above Cardiff should be something we expect, to finish above Bath however is made more difficult by the fact they get a points haul when they play Cardiff. It's bad enough that the URC is skewed in this way, now Europe too. Not good, not even and not fair enough that I want to stamp my feet and shout.

If its any consolation 5th place gets parachuted into the challage cup.

mikey_dragon wrote:Pool 4's a tough one. Would Leinster have to play Stormers?

Nope. Leinster will play La Rochelle, Stade Francais, Leicester Tigers and Sale Sharks either home or away (not sure how thats decided) for their 4 games.

Top 2 have home advantage in round of 16, 3rd and 4th away in round of 16, 5th parachuted into challange cup and 6th is eliminated.

Not sure if round of 16 is open draw or top 2 in pool x play 3rd and 4th in pool y or what.

Lot of questions over this new format

Pete330v2 wrote:

Kingshu wrote:We dont play Cardiff. All the other have the advantage of playing them, but as in same league we dont

I should have kept up to date with the intricacies of the new format but to be honest as soon as I start reading those things I lose the ability to read very quickly. So we're in a pool of 6 but really only a pool of 5 and in which 4 of the other teams get the advantage of playing the weakest team (sorry Cardiff fans but it's true). To finish above Cardiff should be something we expect, to finish above Bath however is made more difficult by the fact they get a points haul when they play Cardiff. It's bad enough that the URC is skewed in this way, now Europe too. Not good, not even and not fair enough that I want to stamp my feet and shout.

They only have half a squad and don't know whether or not they have a coach. They're by far the weakest in the competition.

Kingshu wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Pool 4's a tough one. Would Leinster have to play Stormers?

Nope. Leinster will play La Rochelle, Stade Francais, Leicester Tigers and Sale Sharks either home or away (not sure how thats decided) for their 4 games.

That is a hell of a four game run, even for Leinster: La Rochelle, Stade Francais, Tigers, and Sale. Not sure who wins or loses, but as an orthopaedist, this pool will be very good for my business. There will be sore bodies after that pool.

From a Saints perspective, they could beat 'em all. Munster (should have won this past season in Limerick), Glasgow, Bayonne, Toulon.
Of course Saints being Saints, they could lose 'em all too. I hope the Toulon match is away, so I can plan a road trip.

From the EPRC:

"Fixtures will be determined using an algorithm which will take into consideration the pool draws, league calendar restrictions, individual club calendar restrictions and broadcast requirements."

Who do they think they are fooling here? No doubt they will bend over backwards to appease French clubs with the travel. The who thing is a complete sham.

Kingshu wrote:We dont play Cardiff. All the other have the advantage of playing them, but as in same league we dont :(

Tbf we (Harlequins) don't get to play Bath either when everyone else does.

I'm still unclear about how this new system impacts the Challenge Cup. Will sides still drop into the knockout stages in the Challenge Cup if they don't qualify knockouts of Champions Rugby and how is that decided?

I just hope this year welsh sides actually don't keep prioritizing Europe. The chances of them actually winning it to get a Champions Cup spot is virtually zero at this point. I'd rather they simply focus on the league instead. I was disappointed that the Dragons rolled their first team out there as I would have preferred to see some of the big names in the league and get us some more UCR wins instead.

Welshmushroom wrote:I'm still unclear about how this new system impacts the Challenge Cup.  Will sides still drop into the knockout stages in the Challenge Cup if they don't qualify knockouts of Champions Rugby and how is that decided?  

I just hope this year welsh sides actually don't keep prioritizing Europe.  The chances of them actually winning it to get a Champions Cup spot is virtually zero at this point.  I'd rather they simply focus on the league instead.  I was disappointed that the Dragons rolled their first team out there as I would have preferred to see some of the big names in the league and get us some more UCR wins instead.

Yeah mentioned above, 5th place gets parachuted into the challage cup.

Tbh I dont hold a lot of hope for Welsh rugby for next 5 years at least. Scarlets have put together a great coaching team, but the rest are nothing to be excited about, alot of talent gone, and the focus is now on youth, which would have been fine if there was a promising group of young welsh players coming through but the Welsh under 20s haven't finished better than 4th since about 2017 and this year picked up a wooden spoon.

It looks like the focus is on improving this, but it'll take 2/3 years at least and 2/3 years more for them to develop at the regions.

With SA sides going from strenght to strenght, now would have been the time to be putting down a marker, to grow a brand, instead the regions will struggle to make playoffs/Hcup, and even in a number of years when they do start improving, the gap to the SA sides and provinces will have widened, will be very difficult to close that gap. Connacht and Lions (the worst SA/province) are better than the best region.

While the regions rebuild, even just concentrating on the URC will they be able to keep attendance levels up? When they do start improving will they be able to increase the supporter numbers? The top teams have average attendances of around 13,000 which generates a lot of their income, would any of the regions be able to get that in 4/5 years time, it looks unlikely. So it looks like they are going to be the poor relations in the league for a lot of years to come.

I would love to see an Ospreys side like the one they had around 2010, that was good wnough to have won a HCup. But I fear that we'll never see a region at that level again.

Its a bleak time and its hard to see any positives in Welsh rugby currently. Hopefully in a few years we see some green shoots.

yappysnap wrote:

Kingshu wrote:We dont play Cardiff. All the other have the advantage of playing them, but as in same league we dont

Tbf we (Harlequins) don't get to play Bath either when everyone else does.

Ouch !! Next season is the big one for Bath....maybe.