The 2023 Cricket World Cup

by Duty281 Mon 30 Oct 2023, 11:08 am

First topic message reminder :

The ICC apparently changed the Champions Trophy qualification rules in March 2021.

It's just they never told anyone about it, never made a media release, and hence most teams were unaware of the alteration until yesterday.

I'll revise my question from yesterday to: Who on earth makes a change to the qualification format of a supposedly major competition and doesn't bother to tell anyone?

by alfie Sat 11 Nov 2023, 7:42 am

VTR wrote:I'm not sure this game really affects CT qualification, Bangladesh are already in 8th place. The Netherlands beating India though....

Well true - I mean it would cement Bangladesh and leave the others dependant on their final NRR - which can of course change with both England and Netherlands having to play. A heavy loss for Bangladesh here on the other hand might push them below Sri Lanka : doesn't look likely given their good batting effort ...

But Mahmudullah has just become the second run out victim , gone for a bright 32 and it is 214/4 > Marnus again clap

214/4. What can they do with the last 14 overs ? At the least they should set Australia 300 which they'll have to make without the rested Maxwell.

by VTR Sat 11 Nov 2023, 7:50 am

Ah, see what you mean now. I had just woken up and was only thinking from an England perspective. We've gone from winning the tournament to hoping the Netherlands don't pull of a shock in order to qualify for a second tier competition. Beyond even my worst nightmares, bring back Michael Yardy

by alfie Sat 11 Nov 2023, 8:01 am

VTR wrote:Ah, see what you mean now. I had just woken up and was only thinking from an England perspective. We've gone from winning the tournament to hoping the Netherlands don't pull of a shock in order to qualify for a second tier competition. Beyond even my worst nightmares, bring back Michael Yardy

by alfie Sat 11 Nov 2023, 8:03 am

Reckon Australia will still fancy chasing whatever is set - looks a great batting strip. Unless they get careless...

They have been pretty relaxed , letting the fifth bowler combination send down 13 mostly expensive overs already. Experimentation is on ?

by VTR Sat 11 Nov 2023, 8:13 am

England bat, so that's Pakistan done for, though their chances of progressing were next to nothing anyway

by alfie Sat 11 Nov 2023, 8:20 am

Jos won the toss again ? The one thing he's done perfectly ! Though I can't help wondering what might have happened had they chosen to bat first against SA on that dreadful hot afternoon...

Pakistan had no realistic chance anyway. Losing by 287 would surely be a bit much even for England at their worst Smile

Want to finish this with a win in case of any nasty surprises like Bangladesh and Netherlands winning !

by alfie Sat 11 Nov 2023, 9:01 am

306 for Bangladesh. Decent target to set the Aussies - who strangely used the "spares" for 15 overs and Cummins and Hazlewood had some up their sleeves. May not matter.

Rauf producing some rather spectacular wides early on against England !

by alfie Sat 11 Nov 2023, 9:36 am

Malan gets a bit too cute and tries a reverse only to pop it to the keeper...ends a good opening stand , gone for 31 , 82/1 : which has been a good result after the very dangerous early stuff from Afridi (and Rauf , between wides ). Batting looked very tricky early on with the ball doing a lot.

Root would like some runs today...

by alfie Sat 11 Nov 2023, 9:39 am

That was a very sharp catch by Rizwan , by the way. Very quick reaction thumbsup

by GSC Sat 11 Nov 2023, 9:48 am

England rounding into form at the right time. Nobody will want to play us in the knockouts

by alfie Sat 11 Nov 2023, 9:53 am

Hundred up in the 17th and Jonny will be happy to have passed fifty for only the second time in this WC... Think this represents a pretty good platform on a pitch that doesn't look altogether easy for batting on.

Aussies travelling reasonably well too at 57/1 in the ninth.

by GSC Sat 11 Nov 2023, 10:31 am

Sounds like you're fixing to declare some kind of par score there Alfie.

Think the intensity has rather gone from this game once it became apparent England weren't going to be rolled. Has a bit of a last day of school vibe now

by wisden Sat 11 Nov 2023, 10:45 am

Don't understand the Salman agha selection if he isn't gonna bowl?

by alfie Sat 11 Nov 2023, 11:01 am

Don't know about a par score , GSC...but I do think chasing anything significant on this will be tricky. Expect Rashid to be very dangerous quite apart from what the seamers might manage with the new ball.

Good to see Root getting to his 1000 WC runs as some consolation for a disappointing tournament this time around. He does look like a player in need of a bit of time off so a good thing India is a couple of months away.

by king_carlos Sat 11 Nov 2023, 11:03 am

Shadab's bowling has been unreliable for a while which has thrown Pakistan's balance out of whack. On talent he should be locked in as a 7 that gets through 10 overs. He just hasn't looked like that though, frustratingly. I think Agha is there to try to bodge batting and bowling depth. A bit like England were with Mo and Livi for similar reasons. The back to the past England then let Shadab bowl 8-0-35-0 though.

by alfie Sat 11 Nov 2023, 11:22 am

Hundred from Marsh has Australia well on course to haul in that commendable Bangladesh 306. Bangladesh will want to make sure they don't do it too quickly so as not to imperil their NRR : but I think they will be safe enough for the CT unless Netherlands upset India tomorrow . Aussies still need 125 from the last twenty but that doesn't seem too difficult...

by alfie Sat 11 Nov 2023, 11:33 am

Stokes gone after a typical innings of slow start and lots of fun later...240/3 and Buttler has ten overs (well , theoretically !) to do something with the bat... He has a habit of doing well against Pakistan so if he's ever going to get some form back this would seem an ideal opportunity...

Stokes a hundred last game and 84 today : maybe had he been fit from the start of this WC he might have been able to prevent the descent into hopelessness that devoured England after those early reverses ? Ah , the might have beens

by JDizzle Sat 11 Nov 2023, 11:34 am

Root in good nick is generally a good bell weather on the pitch. If he scores fast, it is a road but if he gets bogged down (a la 2019 final) it is tricky.

So if we apply that then it’s probably not as easy as Stokes and YJB made it look - but does Root’s form counteract my rule?

by alfie Sat 11 Nov 2023, 11:41 am

Root falls for a slightly scratchy but still useful 60 ... Afridi getting reverse and looking hard to handle at present. Harry Brook will hope to get a few here after not really firing in the games he has played here. 257/4 with seven left and they'd want to push this significantly over 300 from here. Two new batsmen though so not automatic...

by wisden Sat 11 Nov 2023, 11:43 am

king_carlos wrote:Shadab's bowling has been unreliable for a while which has thrown Pakistan's balance out of whack. On talent he should be locked in as a 7 that gets through 10 overs. He just hasn't looked like that though, frustratingly. I think Agha is there to try to bodge batting and bowling depth. A bit like England were with Mo and Livi for similar reasons. The back to the past England then let Shadab bowl 8-0-35-0 though.

Moeen is far more reliable than shadab...and tbh I think Livingstone is as well...I think he is hugely underbowled and think he should still be in the side...

by alfie Sat 11 Nov 2023, 11:46 am

Good question, JD . I fancy it is a bit tricky but I gues we will have a better idea when Pakistan bat !

Now : I think Jos is in luck here as Rauf has caught him but stepped on the boundary marker... Celebrating by whacking the next one for six

Looks like "bash everything" time...

by wisden Sat 11 Nov 2023, 11:47 am

330 is on here...some big hits from brook and buttler

by Duty281 Sat 11 Nov 2023, 11:50 am

Interesting tactics from Pakistan. No Shaheen for the last five overs, and Brook/Buttler finally with a chance to do something devastating.

by JDizzle Sat 11 Nov 2023, 11:54 am

Nasser said, I think, this was the first time Buttler was batting in the last 10 overs this tournament. Just about sums up England’s campaign.

That first six from Brook off Shaheen was incredible.

by alfie Sat 11 Nov 2023, 11:54 am

Pakistan falling apart here. Fielding errors , some loose bowling. And Buttler has brought a lucky charm out to bat it seems : they don't want to catch him and now the ball goes from his body on to the stumps but the bails stay in place.

England motoring in these late overs. 296/4 and four overs left ...

by alfie Sat 11 Nov 2023, 12:09 pm

That's the trouble with luck - it swings around. Jos after surviving a couple of chances is run out by a brilliant piece of fielding from Rauf...

With Brook having fallen a few balls earlier it is up to Moeen and Woakes to make something of these last couple of overs...

by Duty281 Sat 11 Nov 2023, 12:15 pm

Weird to think this has been the last innings for many of these England players in the ODI format.

Utterly hopeless stuff from Moeen, as per. Calling Buttler through for a suicidal single, just when Buttler looked in decent touch, then managing to score 8 off 6. Rolling Eyes

by JDizzle Sat 11 Nov 2023, 12:18 pm

Something has gone wrong with the bowling if Pakistan get these anyway. It’s offering plenty.

This would have been a perfect pitch for SCurran’s bowling - cutters into the middle of the pitch and avoiding the straight boundaries is what is needed.

by alfie Sat 11 Nov 2023, 12:35 pm

337/9 eh ? Really ought to be plenty unless the bowlers revert to their awful form of the first few matches.

And Australia home with six overs and 8 wickets to spare...Marsh with an excellent 177

by alfie Sat 11 Nov 2023, 12:44 pm

Duty281 wrote:Weird to think this has been the last innings for many of these England players in the ODI format.

Utterly hopeless stuff from Moeen, as per. Calling Buttler through for a suicidal single, just when Buttler looked in decent touch, then managing to score 8 off 6.

Bit harsh on your hero Moeen , Duty Smile

Last couple of overs they were just going for everything...anyway Willey came in and hit the ball better than anyone so worked out nicely.

Think Moeen's main job today is with the ball...

by alfie Sat 11 Nov 2023, 12:48 pm

Consolation for Bangladesh as they didn't cop too much NRR damage and go through to the CT at the expense of Sri Lanka - unless Netherlands can spring the shock of the ages on India tomorrow . Some reward for a decent batting effort earlier.

by Duty281 Sat 11 Nov 2023, 12:58 pm

David Willey needs three wickets to get to 100 ODI wickets. Hope he gets it. Solid, honest cricketer, treated poorly by the establishment.

by alfie Sat 11 Nov 2023, 1:27 pm

Got two ... Would be only just for him to finish on a high so hopefully at least one more coming for him tonight ...

His form with bat and ball screams Selection Error in not giving him a one year contract to keep him around for that t20 WC !

by king_carlos Sat 11 Nov 2023, 1:37 pm

Duty281 wrote:David Willey needs three wickets to get to 100 ODI wickets. Hope he gets it. Solid, honest cricketer, treated poorly by the establishment.

1 more wicket now. It would be a happy bookend to an up and down international career. He's one of those players that sort of bridge the gap between eras in English cricket. He started when CC was the focus of counties and was Swann-esque pinch hitting opener when white ball cricket was less tactically astute at times. Then developed into a white ball specialist as left-arm seam surged in demand.

I honestly didn't have a problem with him not having a contract next year despite being England's best bowler at this CWC. He's already dropped down the T20i depth chart and I do think there are better bowlers in that format. Whilst he isn't going to make 2027 as a 50 over player. Announcing it mid tournament was a dumb gaff that didn't need to happen though.

The last minute dropping for Jof in 2019 was a tough break but absolutely the right call IMO. So I again disagreed with others that he was harshly treated there. That's just elite sport being brutal. So overall I don't think he's been as poorly treated as many other fans do. The timing of that announcement being the exception. The players already knew and Willey knew before the tournament. It didn't need to be made public until between the CWC ending and India tour though. A dumb gaff, sadly.

Overall I don't disagree with the actual contracts awarded that much. Will Jacks being the only absentee I disagree with. If nit picking, I'd have preferred Olly Stone be kept on a development contract. If using hindsight then maybe Livi on a one year deal rather than two and no contract for Mo or Malan to make space for Jacks. I thought Livi would do better pretournament though and Mo's best format by a distance now is T20 with a World T20 next year. So there's probably an element of this abject defence making me rethink those three.

by alfie Sat 11 Nov 2023, 1:50 pm

I don't really disagree with a lot of those points , KC : I just think it wouldn't have broken the bank to give Willey a contract as well as the other 29 , given his general reliability as a squad player. As long as they don't have a mass of pace bowler injuries it probably won't really matter. But injuries do happen in clumps...

by KP_fan Sat 11 Nov 2023, 3:59 pm

Headlines of the day for Aus

AUS continue to surmount bigger totals and challenges in every game with a different cast in lead roles.
When Maxwell & Starc are back Stoinis will sit out and Aus will be strong frontrunners.to lift this world Cup.

Eng's Headlines can be written in 2 different ways

1. Brilliance of spinners Ali and Adil in consecutive games qualifies Eng for CT .
Or
2. Stokes scores in pressure less dead rubbers and Eng finish in bottom 4

PAK's Headline
An array of talented players hard done by listless leader and a disorganized Board.

by Duty281 Sat 11 Nov 2023, 5:37 pm

England finish off by beating Pakistan, something they couldn't do in 2019. Clear sign of improvement!

But, yes, a hugely disappointing tournament for England, falling well short of expectations. I didn't see anyone thinking they wouldn't make the final four this year. And, even more surprisingly, it was the batting at fault, not the often criticised bowling element. Tournament ratings, player-by-player:

Spoiler:

Most of these players should never play ODI cricket again as England build towards 2027. Key question will be whether Buttler retains the captaincy, and what happens to Mott, who will have some questions to answer.

by VTR Sat 11 Nov 2023, 11:23 pm

The ratings seem fair, especially as most journalists seem to farcically refuse to award lower than a 5. Buttler definitely deserving of 0 or thereabouts, and a fair few definitely not more than a 2 for their abysmal efforts. At least a few of them finally turned up once the whole thing was over. Think the New Zealand game spooked them into chasing when it was actual insanity on a couple of occasions. Glad it's all done!

by alfie Sun 12 Nov 2023, 3:51 am

Yes well I think we are all agreed that this was a massively disappointing event for England ( though I for one was not going to be surprised if they failed to reach the knockouts : just didn't expect the magnitude and number of those early losses !)

Two wins to finish at least qualified for the CT and arguably confirmed that it was underperformance rather than lack of ability that caused the failures - which actually makes the overall record harder to take.

I don't go along with the "throw them all out " reaction though. Obviously there will have to be a lot of new blood introduced over the next cycle but trying to recast the whole squad overnight would be unlikely to bring good results. There is an unimportant West Indies tour coming up and certainly none of those in the Test side should be included so a good opportunity to try out some alternates - but with a t20 WC next year I doubt there will be much emphasis on 50 over cricket in the short term. So picking a team for the Champions Trophy will have to wait a bit.

Mott and Buttler must take a fair bit of responsibility for this poor show ; but are fortunate that the proximity of that t20 event dictates any immediate change is unlikely - they do have a t20 WC to their credit after all ! But I confess I am a little concerned about the wisdom of keeping Jos as skipper in ODIs into the future. His record as captain does seem inferior to that as a player untroubled by the extra pressures of the armband : average down from 41 to 37 ; strike rate 121 down to 105. Reasonable sample size too - and it contrasts with his t20 figures which actually improve slightly with the leadership. Will be interesting to see how he performs in West Indies - under rather less pressure for results.
(It could of course be that captaincy had little to do with his dreadful WC : his previous ODI record in India was also complete rubbish - though a fairly small number of games. Which again seems odd because he thrives there in t20...)
Will leave that for future discussion though. Because I think Buttler the super batsman is far more important to England than anything he brings to the captaincy ; but I don't see a handy replacement - and having different skippers for all three formats might be bit much of a complication !

by alfie Sun 12 Nov 2023, 4:36 am

Just one game to go - presumably a training run for India , though the Dutch will hope to catch a relaxed opponent by surprise and oust Bangladesh from a CT spot ; and then on to the serious stuff...

KP_fan seems very anxious about India's potential to have a disaster at the business end of the tournament but honestly I reckon they remain strong favourites to win the whole thing. Clearly the most consistent team in the event , have beaten all the other finalists - and don't seem to have any obvious weakness. They ought to win it. But of course this is knock out 50 over stuff so Anything is Possible on a Day...

The others all have their merits. SA - when they bat first - look imposing with the bat ; and they have a good mix of bowlers. That "choker" tag still hangs over them and they will be keen to dispel it : I know history is just history - but how much can past hoodoos weigh on player's minds ? We might find out.
Australia have gone from awful at the start to impressive by the end of the round robin. Have chased some good totals very well - though against perhaps less powerful attacks than they are likely to face in the next week. Zampa is such a key bowler for them that I am sure their opponents are going to be spending a lot of time considering how to play against him. Main concern for Australia would be that in the openers , plus Marsh and Maxwell , they have four bats who can blaze big scores - but are a little light across the rest of the batting list unless both Smith and Labuschagne play- which would leave the bowling possibly exposed. Have to be a strong chance given their recent form.

And NZ - underrated by most as usual : injury hit and suffering some disappointing defeats after a great start. Do they really belong in this company ? Their spirit often seems to lift them to unexpected heights and it would be foolish to write them off with such a handy mix of the experience of Williamson , Boult , Southee etc and the youthful and unafraid brilliance of Ravindra : I just wonder if their bowling is quite good enough.

Will consider my picks for the tipping contest I guess. But I wouldn't be astonished by any results from here...

by KP_fan Sun 12 Nov 2023, 7:06 am

India has done exceedingly well and beyond their most hard-core fan's expectations
But how conveniently they have their last game, also the last game of league phase when all scenarios are known to all against the lowest ranked non test playing team.
Maximum cushion accorded to Ind in case they were in a spot needing to catch up on NRR to qualify

India has never lost a game on Diwali day in my memory so they should win today.
If I were India I would play Ashwin, shardul Prasiddh and Ishan
Resting
Jadeja, Bumrah, Siraj and KL rahul

by GSC Sun 12 Nov 2023, 9:13 am

If I had to guess, India Aus final though the opposite teams would be much more entertaining imo

by KP_fan Sun 12 Nov 2023, 9:50 am

Pitch isn't as good to bat at 91-0 in 10 and 120-1 in 15 score reflects
Ball is gripping and holding in the pitch...became evidence when Van der Merwe started bowling

by GSC Sun 12 Nov 2023, 12:38 pm

Think we can probably rule out the NL run to the CT at halfway, 411 feels like it's probably beyond them

by VTR Sun 12 Nov 2023, 12:45 pm

Especially on a 275 par pitch!

by Duty281 Sun 12 Nov 2023, 1:51 pm

Both semi-finals are tight. I don't think you could say any team is more than 60-40 favourites. In a one-off game, it takes just one sublime spell of bowling or one brilliant innings to win it.

India are obviously favourites against NZ, but they were also favourites in 2019 and look how that turned out. India still have to deal with their poor recent KO record, while NZ relish being the outsider. SA possibly have a narrow edge over Australia, their bowlers are in better form, batsmen perhaps marginally so. Australia have been on an excellent run recently, although many of their wins have been close.

by Duty281 Sun 12 Nov 2023, 3:37 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/67395485

Seems like Key is taking the blame, which will leave the way clear for Buttler and Mott to continue in their roles. Do think Key's comment of how England needed local knowledge to know it's hot in Mumbai is rather daft!

by Duty281 Sun 12 Nov 2023, 4:02 pm

It's over! The group stage is done. Finished. Completed. Thought it would never end. Peace at last.

by king_carlos Sun 12 Nov 2023, 4:26 pm

Duty281 wrote:Do think Key's comment of how England needed local knowledge to know it's hot in Mumbai is rather daft!

They will have known about the heat from training in it. To my understanding the heat, or rather humidity, doesn't drop much in the evening though. So I'd guess they were thinking that if it's going to be brutal fielding first or second then stick with chasing as England have tended to do that well under Morgan and Buttler. Whereas it was so tough in the field, not helped by how poor England already were there, that it clearly had a knock on effect to the batting.

The way it's phrased there does sound dumb though.

As the tournament unfolded we have seen teams doing better batting first and the dew having little effect.

It's been a calamitous defence from the final/preliminary squad announcement though. I thought the fielding would be poor and bowling unders but seeing so many great ODI batters be that pish was startling.

by VTR Sun 12 Nov 2023, 4:48 pm

Duty281 wrote:It's over! The group stage is done. Finished. Completed. Thought it would never end. Peace at last.

45 matches, with about 3 of them actually entertaining

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