Re: England Getting Four Wins in the Six Nations - A New Thread

by Geordie Sun 17 Dec - 6:57

First topic message reminder :

2 tries for Hartley at 12 .

Fdjour decent first scrum then missed some tackles etc.
Sales two wingers Reed and Roebuck were very impressive....

Bath v Cardiff now...lots of potential England options here.

by Mr Bounce Thu 1 Feb - 20:07

Official squad announcement is 2pm

by doctor_grey Thu 1 Feb - 21:59

I hope if in the squad Roots does well. Frankly he wasn't on my radar screen at all. I had seen a few matches (more accurately parts of matches) and I didn't see much of anything to scream international class. But those were just bits and pieces and he obviously must have shown much more other times - like when he knows I am not watching. He is a pretty big lad....

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 1 Feb - 22:35

doctor_grey wrote:I hope if in the squad Roots does well. Frankly he wasn't on my radar screen at all. I had seen a few matches (more accurately parts of matches) and I didn't see much of anything to scream international class. But those were just bits and pieces and he obviously must have shown much more other times - like when he knows I am not watching. He is a pretty big lad....

I had the same impression of him when I watched him play for the Ospreys - that he was perfectly good, but no better than that. I was surprised when I saw he'd been called up for England. Again though, I didn't see every game he played.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 1 Feb - 22:57

I've been impressed with his carryin in the tight, an area without Vunipola is a bit lacking. Or for that matter with Vunipola recently. That said you could have Pearson who is excellent in that area too.

by lostinwales Fri 2 Feb - 0:50

Possible CCS on the bench - probably meaning Pearson missing out. Not long til we find out

by lostinwales Fri 2 Feb - 1:02

OOh. Mitchel makes it. IMF on the bench

by lostinwales Fri 2 Feb - 1:03

15. Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 31 caps)

14. Tommy Freeman (Northampton Saints, 3 caps)

13. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 57 caps)

12. Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints, uncapped)

11. Elliot Daly (Saracens, 64 caps)

10. George Ford (Sale Sharks, 91 caps) – vice captain

9. Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints, 11 caps)

1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 88 caps)

2. Jamie George (Saracens, 85 caps) – captain

3. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 33 caps)

4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 76 caps) – vice captain

5. Ollie Chessum (Leicester Tigers, 18 caps)

6. Ethan Roots (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)

7. Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 30 caps)

8. Ben Earl (Saracens, 25 caps)

Replacements

16. Theo Dan (Saracens, 7 caps)

17. Ellis Genge (Bristol Bears, 58 caps) – vice captain

18. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 107 caps)

19. Alex Coles (Northampton Saints, 3 caps)

20. Chandler Cunningham-South (Harlequins, uncapped)

21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 96 caps)

22. Fin Smith (Northampton Saints, uncapped)

23. Immanuel Feyi-Waboso (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)

by mountain man Fri 2 Feb - 1:05

Good to see Smith, C-CS and Feyi-Waboso in 23. Hopefully all get on with some decent minutes not a token 5min to give cap.

by king_carlos Fri 2 Feb - 1:21

Considering the absentees, I like that selection.

Mitchell recovering in time is great news. He's the best of the 9s in this squad by a distance.

Personally, I'd have risked the 6-2 split given a few versatile starting backs. That could've squeezed Pearson onto the bench as well. It's good to see CCS in the 23 though. He's an impressive athlete.

I'm honestly a bit sceptical that parts of IFW's game are ready for international level. Capping and tying him is understandable though in the circumstances. There's a ton of talent there.

I can see that side gelling pretty well.

by doctor_grey Fri 2 Feb - 1:24

Has Feyi-Waboso played in the centres? I am wondering how the dominoes will fall if there are injuries in the back line.

I'm still struggling with the idea he is in the England squad. Has nothing to do with how he plays - he certainly has talent. But he sounds so Welsh - doesn't seem right to me. But if he earns his cap(s) then let's send him for posh English elocution lessons. Can start with; "The rain in Spain stays mainly in the plane"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVmU3iANbgk

by mountain man Fri 2 Feb - 1:29

doctor_grey wrote:Has Feyi-Waboso played in the centres? I am wondering how the dominoes will fall if there are injuries in the back line.

I'm still struggling with the idea he is in the England squad. Has nothing to do with how he plays - he certainly has talent. But he sounds so Welsh - doesn't seem right to me. But if he earns his cap(s) then let's send him for posh English elocution lessons. Can start with; "The rain in Spain stays mainly in the plane"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVmU3iANbgk

Daly and Freeman can play in centre so no issues I'd say, maybe if Dingwell goes down early could be interesting as playing IC could be an ask.

by Geordie Fri 2 Feb - 1:32

Thats going to be quite an impact from the bench....

I like it in general...all the departments have players who can do all the requirements...from playmaking to graft, to tackling / jackling, scrummaging etc...

by Mr Bounce Fri 2 Feb - 1:32

Slade to 12 if there's an injury. He's covered there before in an SA game where Marchant went from 14 to 13. They gelled well.

by carpet baboon Fri 2 Feb - 1:39

So have england finally picked a 12 who actually plays 12 for his club and is actually a 12?
Could this be what has been missing for years?

by No 7&1/2 Fri 2 Feb - 1:40

mountain man wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:Has Feyi-Waboso played in the centres? I am wondering how the dominoes will fall if there are injuries in the back line.

I'm still struggling with the idea he is in the England squad. Has nothing to do with how he plays - he certainly has talent. But he sounds so Welsh - doesn't seem right to me. But if he earns his cap(s) then let's send him for posh English elocution lessons. Can start with; "The rain in Spain stays mainly in the plane"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVmU3iANbgk

Daly and Freeman can play in centre so no issues I'd say, maybe if Dingwell goes down early could be interesting as playing IC could be an ask.

Slade played there in the 22 6Ns. Badly; but he played!

by No 7&1/2 Fri 2 Feb - 1:42

carpet baboon wrote:So have england finally picked a 12 who actually plays 12 for his club and is actually a 12?
Could this be what has been missing for years?

Well they need to be passed to as well! To often our midfield and wingers are finishing matches with 3 or 4 touches. Unless you make a scything run that's not cut down early it can be hard to impress in attack.

by mountain man Fri 2 Feb - 1:46

carpet baboon wrote:So have england finally picked a 12 who actually plays 12 for his club and is actually a 12?
Could this be what has been missing for years?

Well Manu plays 12 and he's been there for England but yes I get your point. Just need Ford to occasionally pass ball not kick every single time.

I've just listened to BBC podcast with Jamie George and England are going to Italy to win as opposed to just not losing. So, talking the right talk, just need to walk it now.

by nlpnlp Fri 2 Feb - 1:49

carpet baboon wrote:So have england finally picked a 12 who actually plays 12 for his club and is actually a 12?
Could this be what has been missing for years?

I think Dingwall has started 3 games at 12 for Saints this year and no other player in the England squad has any starts for their club at 12 this year. So I wouldn't say Dingwall was a specialist 12, more of a flexible player who can play 12 or 13. I would be surprised therefore if he is the missing 12 England have been looking for, but the only other option when fit seems to be Lawrence who is himself an out and out 13.

by WELL-PAST-IT Fri 2 Feb - 1:55

It would be good to see Fin Smith get on early and play some time with Mitchell rather than both he and Care come on together. A first cap is always a bit nervous, so having someone he plays with inside and out will give him (hopefully) the confidence to play the game as he sees it and not be scared to try things.

by cb Fri 2 Feb - 2:24

A bit of cop out not to start with Smith since he would be between colleagues with Freeman not far away.

Also may be easier to start a match than come in later.

Does Borthwick wait for a big lead which might never come? If England go behind [Italy are a good team] - is Smith brought on to inject some creativity. I would have preferred to start with Smith and if that does work for whatever reason, revert to Ford.

by Lowlandbrit Fri 2 Feb - 2:49

doctor_grey wrote:he sounds so Welsh - doesn't seem right to me. But if he earns his cap(s) then let's send him for posh English elocution lessons.

Don't do that, Scotland will just start sniffing about him Whistle

by formerly known as Sam Fri 2 Feb - 6:16

nlpnlp wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:So have england finally picked a 12 who actually plays 12 for his club and is actually a 12?
Could this be what has been missing for years?

I think Dingwall has started 3 games at 12 for Saints this year and no other player in the England squad has any starts for their club at 12 this year. So I wouldn't say Dingwall was a specialist 12, more of a flexible player who can play 12 or 13. I would be surprised therefore if he is the missing 12 England have been looking for, but the only other option when fit seems to be Lawrence who is himself an out and out 13.

4 starts at 12 for Dingwall but even when he wears 13 alongside Hutchinson he plays as the 12. Don't know if Hutchinson is superstitious or something similar but certainly on defence Dingwall is taking up position next to the flyhalf.

by doctor_grey Fri 2 Feb - 7:10

formerly known as Sam wrote:
nlpnlp wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:So have england finally picked a 12 who actually plays 12 for his club and is actually a 12?
Could this be what has been missing for years?

I think Dingwall has started 3 games at 12 for Saints this year and no other player in the England squad has any starts for their club at 12 this year. So I wouldn't say Dingwall was a specialist 12, more of a flexible player who can play 12 or 13. I would be surprised therefore if he is the missing 12 England have been looking for, but the only other option when fit seems to be Lawrence who is himself an out and out 13.

4 starts at 12 for Dingwall but even when he wears 13 alongside Hutchinson he plays as the 12. Don't know if Hutchinson is superstitious or something similar but certainly on defence Dingwall is taking up position next to the flyhalf.

You are thinking the Will Greenwood 12/13 thing? Dingwall is a much better defender than Hutchinson and usually lines up opposite the greater risk, and protecting our 10 is part of the job. Also being the human sacrifice who takes on the Tuilagis of the world coming down the 12 channel. Hutchinson is an absolutely terrific offensive player. Unfortunately, as a defender he is a terrific offensive player. This is what has kept him on the outer reaches of the Scotland squads. So Dingwall plays where needs must, pretty much as Sam says. In training, Dingwall goes at IC and OC more or less equally. And when the subs come on, he frequently moves completely into the 12 role.

I'm just hoping he backs up my words on Saturday....

by doctor_grey Fri 2 Feb - 8:52

Here is a bit of info from somewhere beyond left field. For whatever it's worth, according to Draftkings Sportbook, in the England-Italy match, the player with the lowest odds (greatest probability) of scoring first is Tommy Freeman. Freeman also has the lowest odds (greatest probability) of scoring of all players in any of the three games. How cool is that?

Peoples thinks we gots skills......

by No 7&1/2 Fri 2 Feb - 18:33

Hmm. The second on the list is Feyi-Waboso! Maybe they think it's a late 1 try game?!

by mountain man Fri 2 Feb - 19:07

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hmm. The second on the list is Feyi-Waboso! Maybe they think it's a late 1 try game?!

Try? Come on, we all know you want to see an uninspiring 3-0 win with a mis-hit Ford drop goal which goes over in the 80th minute after it bounces off Marlers head.

by WELL-PAST-IT Fri 2 Feb - 19:16

I am actually looking forward to see if Freeman and Steward can get an understanding, between the two of them they have height, weight and in one case speed, both offload well. If they are in sync, they could take some stopping.

Pity Furbank isn't in the squad, I would like to see if the "new Furbank" can do better than last time.

It's going to be a rush tomorrow, got to be at Gatwick for 18:30 which is about 90 miles from me with the M1, M25 and M23 all trying to slow me down. Final whistle, jump into a pre-loaded car, so no drinking during the game ( probably a first), remember to take the better half even when she tells me she has forgotten to pack something and can she go back and get it. Then an overnight flight to India , 44th anniversary special.

by lostinwales Fri 2 Feb - 21:08

Steward isn't slow, just takes the length of the pitch to get up to speed

by doctor_grey Fri 2 Feb - 21:20

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I am actually looking forward to see if Freeman and Steward can get an understanding, between the two of them they have height, weight and in one case speed, both offload well. If they are in sync, they could take some stopping.

Pity Furbank isn't in the squad, I would like to see if the "new Furbank" can do better than last time.

It's going to be a rush tomorrow, got to be at Gatwick for 18:30 which is about 90 miles from me with the M1, M25 and M23 all trying to slow me down. Final whistle, jump into a pre-loaded car, so no drinking during the game ( probably a first), remember to take the better half even when she tells me she has forgotten to pack something and can she go back and get it. Then an overnight flight to India , 44th anniversary special.

I agree, and hope that becomes a strong partnership.
Good to see you have your Rugby priorities in order!
Enjoy your trip!

by mikey_dragon Fri 2 Feb - 23:02

lostinwales wrote:Steward isn't slow, just takes the length of the pitch to get up to speed

Decent enough player, but perhaps he (and our 7.5) could benefit from reading AWJs new book; The art of being World Class.

by Geordie Fri 2 Feb - 23:04

mikey_dragon wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Steward isn't slow, just takes the length of the pitch to get up to speed

Decent enough player, but perhaps he (and our 7.5) could benefit from reading AWJs new book; The art of being World Class.

Did he get his info from Martin Johnson....

by doctor_grey Sat 3 Feb - 1:50

lostinwales wrote:Steward isn't slow, just takes the length of the pitch to get up to speed

On the other hand, he has a long stride so only ten or twenty steps and he has done the length of the field. To be fair, I think he has pretty good top end speed, but like a lot of taller guys doesn't accelerate that quickly. If he catches a kick in just a bit of space he can accelerate and is a very scary proposition to tackle.

by formerly known as Sam Sat 3 Feb - 2:02

doctor_grey wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Steward isn't slow, just takes the length of the pitch to get up to speed
On the other hand, he has a long stride so only ten or twenty steps and he has done the length of the field. To be fair, I think he has pretty good top end speed, but like a lot of taller guys doesn't accelerate that quickly. If he catches a kick in just a bit of space he can accelerate and is a very scary proposition to tackle.

Get him coming into the line and hitting a half gap and he's going through it was well. We've simply go to be doing more of that.

by doctor_grey Sat 3 Feb - 3:12

formerly known as Sam wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Steward isn't slow, just takes the length of the pitch to get up to speed
On the other hand, he has a long stride so only ten or twenty steps and he has done the length of the field. To be fair, I think he has pretty good top end speed, but like a lot of taller guys doesn't accelerate that quickly. If he catches a kick in just a bit of space he can accelerate and is a very scary proposition to tackle.

Get him coming into the line and hitting a half gap and he's going through it was well. We've simply go to be doing more of that.

Agree.
It's a strange thing, but with England he doesn't do it enough (as you say), but also in normal open play takes the ball too shallow and isn't really at top speed. Watching a few Tigers matches he seems to get the ball a little deeper which is better/smarter. I had the feeling Eddie Jones, and maybe Borthwick, viewed him as another crash ball option, and that's not him. And kind of a waste of what he brings to the table.

by TJ Sat 3 Feb - 3:17

Steward? I seem to remember him being outpaced by Bradbury in a recent game I saw :-)

by lostinwales Sat 3 Feb - 3:23

mikey_dragon wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Steward isn't slow, just takes the length of the pitch to get up to speed

Decent enough player, but perhaps he (and our 7.5) could benefit from reading AWJs new book; The art of being World Class.

AWJ did spend a lot of time watching world class players

by king_carlos Sat 3 Feb - 4:31

TJ wrote:Steward? I seem to remember him being outpaced by Bradbury in a recent game I saw :-)

I can't help but enjoy the 606 pre-tournament ritual of TJ reappearing in the England thread to slag off a few players. It's like that neighbour who likes Christmas a bit too much covering his house in LEDs. I'm simultaneously not sure of the purpose and know it'd feel wrong if it didn't happen. With Farrell gone and Curry injured I was curious who the new targets would be. I was expecting Genge to be honest. Given Schoeman has been so good it would lend itself to the time tested, "Wouldn't get in the Scotland XV", refrain.

by TJ Sat 3 Feb - 4:36

Lolz

sorry dude. Just bored!

by doctor_grey Sat 3 Feb - 4:41

lostinwales wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Steward isn't slow, just takes the length of the pitch to get up to speed

Decent enough player, but perhaps he (and our 7.5) could benefit from reading AWJs new book; The art of being World Class.

AWJ did spend a lot of time watching world class players

I never saw AWJ at any of my games.

by lostinwales Sun 4 Feb - 0:02

Saw something saying Genge is out

by No 7&1/2 Sun 4 Feb - 0:08

Yeah confirmed by England.
Obano on the bench.

by Geordie Mon 5 Feb - 20:20

Interesting article..if you can read it.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/f96356c7-ac85-4e38-93af-bf1a56238491?shareToken=c844a851bf9befc1bd6dc99fa8a8cf7a

by mountain man Mon 5 Feb - 20:28

Geordie wrote:Interesting article..if you can read it.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/f96356c7-ac85-4e38-93af-bf1a56238491?shareToken=c844a851bf9befc1bd6dc99fa8a8cf7a

Yep. I thought on Saturday there was definitely more attacking intent and that is born out by that article. Defence though was pretty dreadful at times but that will improve.
Issue is how long it'll take, SA say it took them 14 games to gel with a new defence strategy for example.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 5 Feb - 20:32

I saw that quote too. With a 50% win rate during it. Not sure that's good enough if replicated with us.

Ford says we are going with the same attacking intent vs Wales. If we can return as good a try return again we're cooking with Gas!

by mountain man Mon 5 Feb - 20:40

England will need pace on wings as Wales will kick to keep ball infield and also run pack around. Assume it''ll be Dyer and Adams or maybe Grady on Welsh wings so Steward not going to catch them off the mark. I'd keep Steward at 15.
Feyi-Waboso would add pace and a nice frisson of excitement given he's now capped for Eng and facing Wales. I think on the short time he was on pitch Saturday showed he's going to get stuck in, look for work and not hang out wide waiting for a pass which might never come.
He can come in for Daly.

by Geordie Mon 5 Feb - 22:00

I doubt therell be any changes for this weekend....

by lostinwales Mon 5 Feb - 22:05

If Genge is fit he'll be in for Obano. Saw something saying Martin has an outside chance of being fit which would probably mean replacing Coles.

Unlikely to be any other changes although IFW for Daly would be fun.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 5 Feb - 22:26

He's on the rehab list lost and not training as such with the rest.

by Geordie Mon 5 Feb - 22:31

lostinwales wrote:If Genge is fit he'll be in for Obano. Saw something saying Martin has an outside chance of being fit which would probably mean replacing Coles.

Unlikely to be any other changes although IFW for Daly would be fun.

Cant see Martin being fit...and id keep Coles in. Hes deserved his chance.
Maybe Genge will come in if fit...but who knows.

I firmly believe he'll stick with the same. New tactics etc need consistency of selection to get right. I only think Lawrence or Manu being fit would force a change. Dingwall...has a MASSIVE game to make up for as he really didnt do himself any favours, but he has the abilty to make amends.

by lostinwales Mon 5 Feb - 22:35

Geordie wrote:
lostinwales wrote:If Genge is fit he'll be in for Obano. Saw something saying Martin has an outside chance of being fit which would probably mean replacing Coles.

Unlikely to be any other changes although IFW for Daly would be fun.

Cant see Martin being fit...and id keep Coles in. Hes deserved his chance.
Maybe Genge will come in if fit...but who knows.

I firmly believe he'll stick with the same. New tactics etc need consistency of selection to get right. I only think Lawrence or Manu being fit would force a change. Dingwall...has a MASSIVE game to make up for as he really didnt do himself any favours, but he has the abilty to make amends.

Given the shortage of actual 12's I think it is a good thing to give Dingwall a run of a few games

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