England - The Next Episode

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The next stage of development....progression or failure....who can tell.

geoff999rugby wrote:

TJ wrote:As far as I am aware ireland do not have that as a rule - they just keep their best players in Ireland by looking after them ( is it a rule?)

It is not a rule in Ireland

Very very occasionally an exceptional player is selected playing outside Ireland

Sexton, Bowe, Easterby, Murphy come to mind - I think there has been a 5th player just cant think who it is.

The fact Girvan Dempsey was frequently selected over Geordan Murphy tells you just how much they preferred to pick home based players - even if it's not/wasn't a strict rule. Dempsey was a good fullback but Murphy was on another level.

Poorfour wrote:Tuima really impressed me in the A game; ok, not the toughest contest but the range of skills on display was excellent.
Front row is in good shape when you consider the likes of Opoku-Fordjour and Jibulu coming through.
Likewise, the back row looked pretty decent.

Atkinson was impressively tidy and probably offers an alternative to Smith F. Ojomoh got the plaudits at 12, but Beard played a pretty mature and unflashy game at 13. Murley did what he does; two good finishes and a walk in but also a lot of good support lines and defensive work, and I think I even spotted him contesting in the air a couple of times.

Hes impressing in the prem aswell PF. Finally we may have two genuine tight head locks fighting for that England spot....

Hodge also impressed in the A game. His kicking from the tee was good.

We do look to have some good front row options coming through, which is a bit of a relief. If all else fails, and it might, at least we could go back to scrummaging people off the park.

Big wrote:We do look to have some good front row options coming through, which is a bit of a relief.  If all else fails, and it might, at least we could go back to scrummaging people off the park.

Can we (Scotland) have one or two of them please? We need some props. It would make up for you stealing all those backs off us

TJ wrote:

Big wrote:We do look to have some good front row options coming through, which is a bit of a relief.  If all else fails, and it might, at least we could go back to scrummaging people off the park.

Can we (Scotland) have one or two of them please?  We need some props.  It would make up for you stealing all those backs off us

I think that is probably priced in.

Big wrote:We do look to have some good front row options coming through, which is a bit of a relief.  If all else fails, and it might, at least we could go back to scrummaging people off the park.

We do...but it's rhat forever issue...Will they make the step up. Hopefully the RFU will have plenty of those gatherings that they have held already for the young forwards to learn the bread and butter of their positions.

TJ wrote:

Big wrote:We do look to have some good front row options coming through, which is a bit of a relief.  If all else fails, and it might, at least we could go back to scrummaging people off the park.

Can we (Scotland) have one or two of them please?  We need some props.  It would make up for you stealing all those backs off us

You've got Millar mills and Hepburn (although to be fair he's an Aussie). Plus you don't need props just fin Russell and big vdm feeding off a constant supply of turnover ball!

The u20 seven and tighthead lock looked impressive in a losing side against England u20's so you've got some talent coming through.

So Marcus smith and Mitchell might be in the reckoning for the Ireland game. What should we use the Ireland match for? Get the first choices in and play to get the game practice in with scant regard for scoreline? Or try to play as tight a game a possible and be very conservative in an attempt to prevent Ireland from playing?

I don't know what I would choose building for the future or game by game grind trying to get wins by hook or by crook.

TJ wrote:

Big wrote:We do look to have some good front row options coming through, which is a bit of a relief.  If all else fails, and it might, at least we could go back to scrummaging people off the park.

Can we (Scotland) have one or two of them please?  We need some props.  It would make up for you stealing all those backs off us

The ones we brought up and trained? You already got Redpath and Leatherbarrow what more do you want?

Ashman
Hepburn
Millar-Mills
Skinner
Young
Bayliss
Christie
White
Price
Redpath
Hutchinson
Reed

Those are the guys in the current Scotland squad who played their youth rugby in England I believe. It just the nature of the UK. Most people have parents or grandparents from the other nations within the island. Combine that with the academy system up to U18s being strong in England. It's only natural that players who just miss out at some point in the pathway after U18s take up opportunities elsewhere.

lostinwales wrote:

TJ wrote:

Big wrote:We do look to have some good front row options coming through, which is a bit of a relief.  If all else fails, and it might, at least we could go back to scrummaging people off the park.

Can we (Scotland) have one or two of them please?  We need some props.  It would make up for you stealing all those backs off us

The ones we brought up and trained? You already got Redpath and Leatherbarrow what more do you want?

Will Hurd they called into the Scotland Squad before he got injured as well. Leicestershire born and raised.

Scotland with over 52 percent of its squad being born outside Scotland,
23 percent in the Italian side,
21 percent with Ireland,
13 percent in England's squad,
12 percent of the Welsh squad
11 percent with France

lostinwales wrote:

TJ wrote:

Big wrote:We do look to have some good front row options coming through, which is a bit of a relief.  If all else fails, and it might, at least we could go back to scrummaging people off the park.

Can we (Scotland) have one or two of them please?  We need some props.  It would make up for you stealing all those backs off us

The ones we brought up and trained? You already got Redpath and Leatherbarrow what more do you want?

Fin Smith.  Nice replacement for Finn Russell. Ruaridh McConnochie.  There is another as well - name I cannot remember!   But you can keep them if we can have a prop or two please

Yoda wrote:So Marcus smith and Mitchell might be in the reckoning for the Ireland game. What should we use the Ireland match for? Get the first choices in and play to get the game practice in with scant regard for scoreline? Or try to play as tight a game a possible and be very conservative in an attempt to prevent Ireland from playing?

I don't know what I would choose building for the future or game by game grind trying to get wins by hook or by crook.

What is the Ireland game to be used for?
- Perfecting England's crash ball and kick chase game.
- Developing new strategies to eliminate any positive momentum.
- Practise talking to the media like this:

“We’re bitterly disappointed,” the England coach said. “If you miss that many tackles against a team like Fiji they are going to score tries. We knew they were a dangerous side before the game. <<26 Aug. 2023 >>

"We got exposed today," Borthwick told reporters. "I thought we would get a measure of where we are at, there is a big gap between us and the top teams in the world. I think we understand where we are and what we have to do. We are hurting." << 11 March 2023 >>

"This is a painful experience for the team and for England supporters, and we will make sure we learn from it to be better in the future," said Borthwick.  "When you make that number of handling errors at this level, it's very difficult to win, especially against a team of Scotland's quality"  << 24 Feb 2024 >>

I think the hope is that we pull out an unexpected performance and do something against Ireland and people see France struggling and think yeah they're doable. But realistically it's 2 losses no bonus points.

If Wales pick up a losing bonus point or 2 at home to France, we are set for a 5th place finish. I know people are saying he's not going to be sacked but if that happens does anyone think he's not under significant pressure? It would be our worst ever performance in the 6Ns.

Well there's no way this England team can contain Ireland to grind out a win. I just cannot see them doing that for 80mins. They could possibly keep score down so don't get slaughtered but I cannot see a win from those tactics unless Ireland get at least one if not two red cards early on.

Only hope I think is to look to play. Will still lose unless something remarkable happens but they might as well give it a go. They won't of course under Borthwick but I really don't think there's anything to be gained by trying to play a tight game and kick Ireland to death. They're too good, they have players to catch high ball under pressure and return with interest. Their forwards are a match+ for England forwards so I don't see how they can win tight exchanges either.

I'd say pick a team to play a bit. Problem is the players to do that, Mitchell and Smith may/may not be fit and even if passed fit won't be match fit ready. So bench I guess for them, play conservative first half with hope to keep Ireland within reach then go for it 2nd half, unload bench and run at them.

We did pick a team to "play a bit" Vs Scotland. Problem was we made to many unforced errors. If we do the same Vs Ireland they will also shred us.

We'll need to adjust the team because Furbank won't last five minutes up against the Irish back three when they kick to contest.

What we are doing is generally good but we need to show some different shapes in attack as at the minute it's all a bit to repetitive and we need to be clinical ball in hand. Injuries will limit us a bit but we've managed to cause Ireland some problems previously and fingers crossed can make them work for it again next time out.

formerly known as Sam wrote:We did pick a team to "play a bit" Vs Scotland. Problem was we made to many unforced errors. If we do the same Vs Ireland they will also shred us.

We'll need to adjust the team because Furbank won't last five minutes up against the Irish back three when they kick to contest.

What we are doing is generally good but we need to show some different shapes in attack as at the minute it's all a bit to repetitive and we need to be clinical ball in hand. Injuries will limit us a bit but we've managed to cause Ireland some problems previously and fingers crossed can make them work for it again next time out.

Ireland are by far the better team overall, but I don't think have the same ability as Scotland (or an on form France) to take teams apart in broken play - Scotland with an in form Russell and DvdM plus their attacking centres are probably as good as anyone at taking the sort of opportunities England gifted them. Ireland are likely to be a bigger test of the defensive system from more 'set' positions though.

Funny thing with Ireland is that at first look, they don't seem that special, nor to have the one or two stand out players that would make a good team great (like Dupont). They are just an extremely well drilled team with a lot of 8 out of 10 players, and they play as greater than the sum of their parts. As for what England should do, ust put the best available team out and try to play their own brand of rugby - intense defence, low risk when in their own end and trying to develop a bit more cutting edge in attack. Nearly worked against SA in the RWC, but for the power of the SA replacement front row. Not likely to beat Ireland, but that's the same pretty much whatever we do.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think the hope is that we pull out an unexpected performance and do something against Ireland and people see France struggling and think yeah they're doable. But realistically it's 2 losses no bonus points.

If Wales pick up a losing bonus point or 2 at home to France, we are set for a 5th place finish. I know people are saying he's not going to be sacked but if that happens does anyone think he's not under significant pressure? It would be our worst ever performance in the 6Ns.

I think Borthwick is on a 5 year contract. No idea about performance requirements and if there are any opt-outs due to performance.

intense defence, low risk when in their own end and trying to develop a bit more cutting edge in attack

I get what you are saying but that is status quo pretty much and it's just not working. More is required otherwise England continue to stagnate, win odd game, lose more and alienate fanbase.
I really think time to change things up. OK maybe not revolution in all areas but some evolution is desperately needed.

formerly known as Sam wrote:We did pick a team to "play a bit" Vs Scotland. Problem was we made to many unforced errors. If we do the same Vs Ireland they will also shred us.

We'll need to adjust the team because Furbank won't last five minutes up against the Irish back three when they kick to contest.

What we are doing is generally good but we need to show some different shapes in attack as at the minute it's all a bit to repetitive and we need to be clinical ball in hand. Injuries will limit us a bit but we've managed to cause Ireland some problems previously and fingers crossed can make them work for it again next time out.

Well regardless of team picked cannot regulate for multiple basic errors. That was what killed England against Scotland. Even with no handling errors against Ireland(unlikely), England will need more. Playing a defence orientated game will only take England so far.

The quotes at the time Doc was that the RFU acknowledged not having performance based targets was a mistake. I'd be surprised should the RFU have done it again.

So are people honestly think a worst ever 6Ns performance will not lead to significant pressure? Or they think it's not going to happen, or a sacrificial lamb of Sinfield leaving will be enough to change the narrative?

No 7&1/2 wrote:The quotes at the time Doc was that the RFU acknowledged not having performance based targets was a mistake. I'd be surprised should the RFU have done it again.

So are people honestly think a worst ever 6Ns performance will not lead to significant pressure? Or they think it's not going to happen, or a sacrificial lamb of Sinfield leaving will be enough to change the narrative?

There will be pressure if England end up 5th or even a badly performed 4th. I still don't see him being sacked though. Even if he left either by RFU or own hand who is replacement? And who would want England job as it's becoming more and more a poisoned chalice.

Is Dave Rennie available?

I cannot wait to read about how England are planning to make Twickenham a real fortress again, how they plan to really excite and engage with the fans via their amazing rugby and how the RFU are going the extra mile to make the match day experience even better......but I would settle for anything other than a record defeat and a modicum of pride in the shirt please instead.

No more talk please and how about performing on the pitch...that is all that matters now. Last time at Twickers against Ireland was a record defeat albeit one with a certain amount of pride following the Ewels red card after 1 minute. This time let's play with 15 players for the entire match and play with passion and hopefully a little skill. I will take that even if victory is not really an option.

mountain man wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The quotes at the time Doc was that the RFU acknowledged not having performance based targets was a mistake. I'd be surprised should the RFU have done it again.

So are people honestly think a worst ever 6Ns performance will not lead to significant pressure? Or they think it's not going to happen, or a sacrificial lamb of Sinfield leaving will be enough to change the narrative?

There will be pressure if England end up 5th or even a badly performed 4th. I still don't see him being sacked though. Even if he left either by RFU or own hand who is replacement? And who would want England job as it's becoming more and more a poisoned chalice.

What about after the NZ summer tour? 2 heavy defeats and the pressure will increase for sure. Follow that with a bad Autumn and even the RFU might consider moving onwards to a new coach? Lose the last 3 6Ns matches, 2 defeats in NZ, a win V Japan probably, defeats to NZ and SA in the Autumn and possibly even Aus if revitalised under Joe Schmidt?

Saturday, 2 November: England v New Zealand

Week ending Saturday, 9 November: England v Australia

Week ending Saturday, 16 November: England v South Africa

Week ending Saturday, 23 November: England v TBC and

God I hate it when you English are all doom and gloom. Makes beating you not as much fun.
Will you please think of us Irish and get back to banging on about 03 and all that

On a serious note I'm extremely concerned about our trip to HQ.
I think you can definitely put out a team that can beat us and your due a good game.
If you could possibly save it till the week after

We HAVE to cut out the handling errors.
Control the territory
We need our carriers making yards over the gainline...

If Marcus is fit...SB has a dilemma....but Marcus wont be match fit...maybe a bench option. But i DONT want to see Fin dropped.

carpet baboon wrote:God I hate it when you English are all doom and gloom. Makes beating you not as much fun.
Will you please think of us Irish and get back to banging on about 03 and all that

On a serious note I'm extremely concerned about our trip to HQ.
I think you can definitely put out a team that can beat us and your due a good game.
If you could possibly save it till the week after

Nah not buying it ... no way England win, but nice of you to try to make us feel better

I'm not sure why "won't be match fit" has become such a mantra. Smith has missed about 5 weeks of playing time and will have been doing rehab to maintain fitness; Mitchell has been out for 3. Players routinely return from that kind of injury layoff and pick up where they left off.

The main issue is that Smith hasn't had much time training with a much-changed squad and tactics, but on Saturday's evidence that doesn't leave him far behind the rest of the squad.

I think the backline selection will tell you what borthwicks plans are.

If he panics and goes for a Ford Manu Slade midfield he's pretty much admitting he's.playing for a tight game he hopes to try and eek out a win. Add in a back three of Daly steward and freeman. Personally that's the backs I hope he picks, as I don't see them being enough of a threat in attack, and we all know Manu can't defend the 12 channel properly after 2 phases

If he goes Smith Dingwall Lawrence with a back three of freeman furbank and IFW well then that would worry me.

Ojomoh and Randall in the training squad. IFW out this week due to a medical exam

Poorfour wrote:I'm not sure why "won't be match fit" has become such a mantra. Smith has missed about 5 weeks of playing time and will have been doing rehab to maintain fitness; Mitchell has been out for 3. Players routinely return from that kind of injury layoff and pick up where they left off.

The main issue is that Smith hasn't had much time training with a much-changed squad and tactics, but on Saturday's evidence that doesn't leave him far behind the rest of the squad.

Has it?
Maybe the pace of the games and intensity levels of int rugby has brough that on. A few England players returning from injury have looked off the pace a bit...and id put that to match fitness etc.

Mr Bounce wrote:Ojomoh and Randall in the training squad. IFW out this week due to a medical exam

Showed alot of potential v Portgual...

Mr Bounce wrote:Ojomoh and Randall in the training squad. IFW out this week due to a medical exam

So in terms of a winger stepping in it's Muir or Roebuck then. Looks like Daly and Freeman again.

Nice to see Pearson back in. Given that Earl looks set to keep his place ahead of number 8s would like to see him start above Underhill.

There's another Bracken who plays 9 in the U18 squad. How many did he produce?!

That's a blow about IFW. Be nice to see Randall and Ojomoh given a chance. Muir? Hmm dunno about him. I'd rather Murley.

Edit : When you say IFW out this week, does that mean he's still available for Ireland match? Is he just not training this week?

I believe it's just a 36-man training squad for the fallow week that IFW is missing from.

Geordie wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:Ojomoh and Randall in the training squad. IFW out this week due to a medical exam

Showed alot of potential v Portgual...

It was an astonishingly weak team having looked a bit deeper. Obvious, I knew they were missing every player from their RWC squads. They also didn't have any France based players due to it not being a release weekend for Portugal. On top of even this, the Portugese Cup KOs were last week, their 1st and 2nd placed teams were playing each other and didn't release players!

It's been referred to as a C team in places. It's genuinely closer to D/E, even that may be generous.

It was a good idea, dismally organised, sadly. Chatting to a few Tigers ST holders that also watch local clubs who went, they reckoned that being realistic Portugal were somewhere between Nottingham (semi-pro Champ club these days) and Leicester Lions (league one) in terms of play.

I really hope the concept doesn't now get junked again due to abject organisation.

It was good to see Simon Raiwalui there though. He's now working with WR on the pathways for lower tier rugby nations.

king_carlos wrote:

Geordie wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:Ojomoh and Randall in the training squad. IFW out this week due to a medical exam

Showed alot of potential v Portgual...

It was an astonishingly weak team having looked a bit deeper. Obvious, I knew they were missing every player from their RWC squads. They also didn't have any France based players due to it not being a release weekend for Portugal. On top of even this, the Portugese Cup KOs were last week, their 1st and 2nd placed teams were playing each other and didn't release players!

It's been referred to as a C team in places. It's genuinely closer to D/E, even that may be generous.

It was a good idea, dismally organised, sadly. Chatting to a few Tigers ST holders that also watch local clubs who went, they reckoned that being realistic Portugal were somewhere between Nottingham (semi-pro Champ club these days) and Leicester Lions (league one) in terms of play.

I really hope the concept doesn't now get junked again due to abject organisation.

It was good to see Simon Raiwalui there though. He's now working with WR on the pathways for lower tier rugby nations.

Ive said this repeatedly KC, they'd have had more competition from a championship team. I think when this was arranged they must have expected to be playing that Portugal team from the World Cup..not 18 and 19 year olds.

They need to be running out against the must stronger oppositon

I really hope the concept doesn't now get junked again due to abject organisation.

Can the RFU actually get anything right!

Poorfour wrote:I'm not sure why "won't be match fit" has become such a mantra. Smith has missed about 5 weeks of playing time and will have been doing rehab to maintain fitness; Mitchell has been out for 3. Players routinely return from that kind of injury layoff and pick up where they left off.

The main issue is that Smith hasn't had much time training with a much-changed squad and tactics, but on Saturday's evidence that doesn't leave him far behind the rest of the squad.

Agreed. If RG Snyman can start 4 games for Munster in 3 seasons heading into the RWC and be was sublime for the winners, then Smith can miss a month. Fitness hasn't been an issue for Mitchell, since his massive improvements in conditioning, and Smith. If they get a decent training week in before the match then that isn't a concern in the slightest.

It's interesting to read journalists such as Gerard Meagher write that Marcus Smith was likely to start with Finn Smith tipped to still be blooded from the bench prior to the injury.

Mitchell potentially returning is massive IMO. He's been really good for a prolonged period now. Care had a shocker and I've never really seen Spencer as a potential SH at international level. It's very frustrating to have JvP and Quirke injured at the same time.

I think the term "match fitness" refers to more than just physical fitness. It's being up to speed with all plays, without sounding too wanky, being in tune with rest of team. A group of players who've been together all the time will pick up subtle clues which become ingrained with time. Miss a couple of weeks of that and it can make a small but possibly crucial difference.

Smith has still been with the group the whole time though. He'll have been in every analysis session, debrief, etc. He'll have been onsite at just about every training session but rehabbing rather than in contact. Plus he was involved in last years Six Nations and the entire RWC from summer camps, warmups and the tournament itself. He's hardly coming in cold.

Whilst Mitchell will have missed one game if he is fit for Ireland.

If either play against Ireland then I don't think relatively short term recent injuries should be a concern at all. I'd probably start them at 9 and 10 if they are fit. Mitchell 100% starts if fit. Whilst I think the 3 FHs are a tight call really. I'd maybe favour Marcus after the Scotland game.

Well yes if fit both Mitchell and Smith should be in 23 if not 15.

king_carlos wrote:I believe it's just a 36-man training squad for the fallow week that IFW is missing from.

Per the BBC, England wing Immanuel Feyi-Waboso will miss the three-day training camp in York this week because of a medical exam at Exeter University.

Medicine ain't remotely what it used to be.  That said, anyone dedicating themselves to it:  Good on them and good luck!

Well lets hope Marcus is picked and wins the game fir England.

One name hardly mentioned and when it was it was only in his potential to bring on Archie McFarland is Tom James. When Mitchell is unavailable or hooked off he is the go to and Saints don't seem to suffer in any way from Mitchell not being there, He has a very similar sort of game, id fast, has an eye for a break and a long fast pass. His kicking game is not as good as Mitchells, but better than we saw at the weekend and he can defend like Mitchell, dropping back to field the long balls. I am not saying he is the solution, but worth a try in the training squad to see how he goes.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:One name hardly mentioned and when it was it was only in his potential to bring on Archie McFarland is Tom James. When Mitchell is unavailable or hooked off he is the go to and Saints don't seem to suffer in any way from Mitchell not being there, He has a very similar sort of game, id fast, has an eye for a break and a long fast pass. His kicking game is not as good as Mitchells, but better than we saw at the weekend and he can defend like Mitchell, dropping back to field the long balls. I am not saying he is the solution, but worth a try in the training squad to see how he goes.

Pick the saints team and it would probably beat England at the moment.

I mentioned him above...but im curious to see how Tom Litchfield comes through...

doctor_grey wrote:

king_carlos wrote:I believe it's just a 36-man training squad for the fallow week that IFW is missing from.

Per the BBC, England wing Immanuel Feyi-Waboso will miss the three-day training camp in York this week because of a medical exam at Exeter University.

Medicine ain't remotely what it used to be.  That said, anyone dedicating themselves to it:  Good on them and good luck!

Tell me about it. Eldest in London doing post grad medicine, really intense course.