England - The Next Episode

First topic message reminder :

The next stage of development....progression or failure....who can tell.

Geordie wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:One name hardly mentioned and when it was it was only in his potential to bring on Archie McFarland is Tom James. When Mitchell is unavailable or hooked off he is the go to and Saints don't seem to suffer in any way from Mitchell not being there, He has a very similar sort of game, id fast, has an eye for a break and a long fast pass. His kicking game is not as good as Mitchells, but better than we saw at the weekend and he can defend like Mitchell, dropping back to field the long balls. I am not saying he is the solution, but worth a try in the training squad to see how he goes.

Pick the saints team and it would probably beat England at the moment.

I mentioned him above...but im curious to see how Tom Litchfield comes through...

They would at least have fluidity.

Actually not many Saints in the 23 based on last weeks showing, Freeman Furlong in 15, Smith and Cole bench. James would only be a replacement for Mitchell anyway.

Tom Litchfield has been a bit unlucky, Saints injury crisis with wingers has meant that he has been playing out of position until the recess for the 6N. He looked good there showing he has pace and for a big lad surprising acceleration off the mark. I think his future is in the centre though, it would be interesting to see him inside Hutchinson or Freeman. I should imagine that a combo of Litchfield and Freeman would worry most sides.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Geordie wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:One name hardly mentioned and when it was it was only in his potential to bring on Archie McFarland is Tom James. When Mitchell is unavailable or hooked off he is the go to and Saints don't seem to suffer in any way from Mitchell not being there, He has a very similar sort of game, id fast, has an eye for a break and a long fast pass. His kicking game is not as good as Mitchells, but better than we saw at the weekend and he can defend like Mitchell, dropping back to field the long balls. I am not saying he is the solution, but worth a try in the training squad to see how he goes.

Pick the saints team and it would probably beat England at the moment.

I mentioned him above...but im curious to see how Tom Litchfield comes through...

They would at least have fluidity.

Actually not many Saints in the 23 based on last weeks showing, Freeman Furlong in 15, Smith and Cole bench. James would only be a replacement for Mitchell anyway.

Tom Litchfield has been a bit unlucky, Saints injury crisis with wingers has meant that he has been playing out of position until the recess for the 6N. He looked good there showing he has pace and for a big lad surprising acceleration off the mark. I think his future is in the centre though, it would be interesting to see him inside Hutchinson or Freeman. I should imagine that a combo of Litchfield and Freeman would worry most sides.

Yes thats what i hope...big unit in there. His development will be interesting.

That centre spot going to be congested what with Earl, Steward in there as well....

mountain man wrote:That centre spot going to be congested what with Earl, Steward in there as well....

Geordie wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Geordie wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:One name hardly mentioned and when it was it was only in his potential to bring on Archie McFarland is Tom James. When Mitchell is unavailable or hooked off he is the go to and Saints don't seem to suffer in any way from Mitchell not being there, He has a very similar sort of game, id fast, has an eye for a break and a long fast pass. His kicking game is not as good as Mitchells, but better than we saw at the weekend and he can defend like Mitchell, dropping back to field the long balls. I am not saying he is the solution, but worth a try in the training squad to see how he goes.

Pick the saints team and it would probably beat England at the moment.

I mentioned him above...but im curious to see how Tom Litchfield comes through...

They would at least have fluidity.

Actually not many Saints in the 23 based on last weeks showing, Freeman Furlong in 15, Smith and Cole bench. James would only be a replacement for Mitchell anyway.

Tom Litchfield has been a bit unlucky, Saints injury crisis with wingers has meant that he has been playing out of position until the recess for the 6N. He looked good there showing he has pace and for a big lad surprising acceleration off the mark. I think his future is in the centre though, it would be interesting to see him inside Hutchinson or Freeman. I should imagine that a combo of Litchfield and Freeman would worry most sides.

Yes thats what i hope...big unit in there. His development will be interesting.

He's going to have to develop quite a bit because currently he's managed a whole 9 Prem games for Saints and not set the world alight in any of them. He's only 21 so there's time but they'd have to be some injury crisis for him to make the squad at the minute.

Geordie wrote:

mountain man wrote:That centre spot going to be congested what with Earl, Steward in there as well....

When SCW and Barnes come together to select the England side.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Geordie wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:One name hardly mentioned and when it was it was only in his potential to bring on Archie McFarland is Tom James. When Mitchell is unavailable or hooked off he is the go to and Saints don't seem to suffer in any way from Mitchell not being there, He has a very similar sort of game, id fast, has an eye for a break and a long fast pass. His kicking game is not as good as Mitchells, but better than we saw at the weekend and he can defend like Mitchell, dropping back to field the long balls. I am not saying he is the solution, but worth a try in the training squad to see how he goes.

Pick the saints team and it would probably beat England at the moment.

I mentioned him above...but im curious to see how Tom Litchfield comes through...

They would at least have fluidity.

Actually not many Saints in the 23 based on last weeks showing, Freeman Furlong in 15, Smith and Cole bench. James would only be a replacement for Mitchell anyway.

Tom Litchfield has been a bit unlucky, Saints injury crisis with wingers has meant that he has been playing out of position until the recess for the 6N. He looked good there showing he has pace and for a big lad surprising acceleration off the mark. I think his future is in the centre though, it would be interesting to see him inside Hutchinson or Freeman. I should imagine that a combo of Litchfield and Freeman would worry most sides.

Yes thats what i hope...big unit in there. His development will be interesting.

He's going to have to develop quite a bit because currently he's managed a whole 9 Prem games for Saints and not set the world alight in any of them. He's only 21 so there's time but they'd have to be some injury crisis for him to make the squad at the minute.

Thats why we've said...it'll be interesting to see how he develops....

The last few of his games have been on the wing baring Falcons, defo not his speciality, but if he does get there (centre) it will be on merit unless there is an injury crisis, he has to get passed one of, Dingwall, Hutchinson, Freeman or Odendaal first, the first three all International squad members.

Just announced today that he has signed a new contract with Saints.

mountain man wrote:That centre spot going to be congested what with Earl, Steward in there as well....

I think you could add Sam Simmonds to the mix!

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:The last few of his games have been on the wing baring Falcons, defo not his speciality, but if he does get there (centre) it will be on merit unless there is an injury crisis, he has to get passed one of, Dingwall, Hutchinson, Freeman or Odendaal first, the first three all International squad members.

Just announced today that he has signed a new contract with Saints.

One thing Dowson has become good at is finding ways to get the younger players some quality game time.  George Hendy was just settling into getting some semi-regular minutes when he became injured.  I'm sure we will see Litchfield get his game time as well.  He has a real high ceiling and it will be interesting to see how he progresses.

This try didn't stink for a 21 year old: https://twitter.com/i/status/1738608314269770233

Excellent news via the BBC! I was getting worried but all it will take is patience from the fans. There will be jam tomorrow!


'Wing Elliot Daly says England's plan to attack Ireland in the Six Nations is the "clearest" it has been in years.

England's attack has struggled in their opening three games but Daly says they want to entertain against Ireland and create a buzz around Twickenham.

Steve Borthwick's side return to their London base to host the defending champions after defeat in Scotland ended their winning start.

"We're very clear on how we want to attack," Daly, 31, told BBC Sport.

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"I think it's the clearest we have been in a few years.

"We are going into these last two games against Ireland and France to get exactly what we want out of them, which is some ball in hand and putting teams on the back foot by scoring some tries."

England have scored two tries in each game so far, with only an under-performing France and bottom-of-the-table Italy having managed fewer in this year's tournament.


Victories over the Azzurri in Rome and Wales at Twickenham were followed by defeat at Murrayfield, but Daly says the hosts want to retain more possession and produce a "proper England performance" against Ireland on 9 March.

"We gave away 21 turnovers against Scotland, which in international rugby doesn't win many games," Daly added. "It's something we will look at this week and the weeks coming and hopefully we can put that right against Ireland.

"The buzz around at Twickenham was brilliant in the last game against Wales so I think we're looking forward to that.

"It was louder than I have seen it in three or four years, so hopefully we can do that and hopefully those guys get behind us again.

"We're looking forward to putting on a show for the fans at home with a proper England performance of never giving up and putting everything on the pitch.

"As soon as you do that, the crowd gets behind you."

Ireland are chasing a second consecutive Grand Slam after opening wins over France, Italy and Wales, but Daly says England's new blitz defence can help to tip the balance in their favour.

"Our defence is great and it puts teams under pressure," the Saracens wing added.

"I think that was the most errors Scotland have made in a game for a long time, so it's definitely working. Everyone is buying into it and we are going for it full throttle.

"We need to be more connected but I think we defended pretty well in phase play. We made one error off a scrum, but apart from that I think the actual defence throughout the whole game was pretty good.

"We want to keep being connected with each other so we can really get off the line.

"Ireland are a quality team. When you get to international level everything is about fine margins and you have to be on it to get a result.

"Whether it's in the kicking game or whether it's in attack or defence. They're really good at the breakdown as well, so we're going to have to be good there."

'We know a cohesive attack takes time'
Attack coach Richard Wigglesworth says England were a "little bit safe and tense" in Edinburgh and will look to express themselves back on home soil.

"We were too far away from the gainline against Scotland and it is something we have been through and we will sort," Wigglesworth told BBC Sport.

"The turnover count was also really high and we want to reduce that against Ireland. You don't reduce turnovers by going into your shell and not trying things. You reduce the turnovers by doing things the way we want to do them.

"Challenging the defence is the way we are aiming to go and we didn't do that at the weekend. We were a little bit safe and tense and we produced errors on the back of it.

"Obviously you want to put everything together, you want a defence that pressurises the attack, you want a kicking game that gets you great field position and puts the opposition on the back foot, allied to a set-piece that is stronger.

"We don't want one thing taking priority over another."

Wigglesworth, however, has called for patience from the Twickenham faithful while England continue to fine-tune their attack.

"We know that a cohesive attack takes time and we want that progress to always be upwards. We know there will be bumps in the road but it is in the subtleties where we have to be effective.

"We want our players to be able to put their best talent on the field and that looks different for everyone, so let's get an England way of playing that gets the best out of the players we've got."

Yeah I read that yesterday and blimey talk about making rod for back. Saying Scotland made most errors for a long time a bit irrelevant if England make 10 times more.
Obviously players will toe the PR line etc but not the greatest interview I've ever read.

I know there's a feeling that words from players and coaches don't matter etc but it all feels a bit deaf. Just feels a little bit like the Conservative party where no matter what they dish up and what the media say they know the people are with them really. Borthwick does appear to be an incredibly popular coach with the players but is this because we've gone from a coach with massively high standards, a prickly demeanour to one where is a little more friendly and training is more fun etc?

All coaches are incredibly popular with the players until they are no longer coach. I recall lots of interviews with players under Jones who sang his praises, don't think ever saw one giving even hint of dissent.
We'll never know how players really feel until either coach goes or player retires. Zach Mercer a rare exception.

mountain man wrote:All coaches are incredibly popular with the players until they are no longer coach. I recall lots of interviews with players under Jones who sang his praises, don't think ever saw one giving even hint of dissent.
We'll never know how players really feel until either coach goes or player retires. Zach Mercer a rare exception.

Disagree..Jones was marmite. He lifted some people to the best they can be...but others failed miserably. Not all players have to be managed the same way

He definitely was marmite but my point is no players ever spoke out about him during his tenure. Every interview with players at the time were fully supportive of him and his methods. As you would obviously expect otherwise player likely to be shown door. This was supposedly happened to Danny Care in 2108, he disagreed with Jones so was out in cold.

My comment was in reply to 7.5 about Borthwick. My point is players will publicly endorse any coach as long as he is coach of said players. So Borthwick appearing to be very popular with players isn't anything new or unusual. Maybe he genuinely is and once he goes they'll all still love him but we won't know until then.

I think he will remain popular. I think there may be comments that the environment was too relaxed though.

Jones definitely ran a authoritarian regime, his way or highway apparently. He was prone to ridiculing players etc. Ben Youngs given a bag of sweets and told too fat. Another was given a package he thought was steak but was cheap sausages as Jones said he wasn't worthy of having steak. Etc etc.
However, at the time they all said what a great coach he was, his methods got results blah blah.
Now if interviewed I suspect quite a few might change tune.

Maybe with Borthwick once he's gone in a few years( ) players will say he was too relaxed and matey.

Like him or loathe him Jones' regime's results overall were very good. Since 2020 it wasn't good enough as he started to put all his eggs into 1 basket.

mountain man wrote:Jones definitely ran a authoritarian regime, his way or highway apparently. He was prone to ridiculing players etc. Ben Youngs given a bag of sweets and told too fat. Another was given a package he thought was steak but was cheap sausages as Jones said he wasn't worthy of having steak. Etc etc.
However, at the time they all said what a great coach he was, his methods got results blah blah.
Now if interviewed I suspect quite a few might change tune.

Maybe with Borthwick once he's gone in a few years( )  players will say he was too relaxed and matey.

Im actually curious to know what SB is like behind the scenes. Is the media face just a front he puts on...or is he really that way. Or can he be brutal / ruthless and give the hairdryer treatment when needed?

Well again, probably never know until he goes and/or players retire. A professional coach especially an Int one surely has to be ruthless at times, be it in selection or giving players tough criticism otherwise if a coach too docile will he be respected by his players and fellow coaches.

mountain man wrote:Well again, probably never know until he goes and/or players retire. A professional coach especially an Int one surely has to be ruthless at times, be it in selection or giving players tough criticism otherwise if a coach too docile will he be respected by his players and fellow coaches.

The thing is ive read him referred to as a "tough bugger" in various articles. Now i think mean mentally etc...so you would think he is very capable of doing the deeds when required. Im pretty sure he would have done it after 21 turnovers....

mountain man wrote:Jones definitely ran a authoritarian regime, his way or highway apparently. He was prone to ridiculing players etc. Ben Youngs given a bag of sweets and told too fat. Another was given a package he thought was steak but was cheap sausages as Jones said he wasn't worthy of having steak. Etc etc.
However, at the time they all said what a great coach he was, his methods got results blah blah.
Now if interviewed I suspect quite a few might change tune.

Maybe with Borthwick once he's gone in a few years( :D)  players will say he was too relaxed and matey.

It was more nuanced than that. A lot of players have said that Jones was very good at knowing who needed a kick up the backside and who needed an arm around their shoulders.

Marler's relationship with Jones is a good example and he talks about it in some detail in Loosehead. Marler was able to take the mick out of Jones, drop out of the squad and come back in, and do things that might have got a lot of other players dumped because (as far as I can tell) they had a pretty mature, trust-based relationship with the heart of it being that Jones knew Marler would be utterly straight about whether he was able to fully commit. Most of their differences were settled over a glass of wine.

We don't know which other players had a similar relationship - clearly quite a few didn't.

Maybe but maybe also a case that Jones needed Marler than he might need one or two others who could be replaced like for like. Not many props of Marler quality were/are available.

But again, none of us really know what goes on in training camp etc.

Whether or not we know what happens in training camps, Eddie Jones does have a history of generally being great for 3 or 4 years - then for whatever reasoning dropping off. He did exactly what you might expect, brilliant 2016 to 2019, then would have been better replaced. The shame is that he is basically the only proven top quality head coach England have recruited in the professional era, and we got exactly what we might have expected from him. Literally every other coach we've had in the professional era seems to be a slightly left-field choice whether inexperienced or jumping from a specialist role to head coach role. For some reason there is a reluctance either from the RFU to appoint a coach with an actual long track record of success as a head coach, or from those coaches to come and work for the RFU. It's why I'm in no rush to see coaches sacked, because who will they get to come in next?!

mountain man wrote:Maybe but maybe also a case that Jones needed Marler than he might need one or two others who could be replaced like for like. Not many props of Marler quality were/are available.

But again, none of us really know what goes on in training camp etc.

That's true, and Jones was arguably better at managing his core squad than his fringe players.

I think the number of players that were cleared out of Leicester within 12 months of Borthwick taking over as head coach shows that he can be ruthless when required.  Likewise his treatment of Zach Mercer has been pretty clear - I have had a look at you and don't fancy you and I don't care if you gave up a lucrative contract in France to come back to Gloucester to get a recall to the England team.

But I don't see him hooking players before half time as Jones did just to show what a tough guy he is.  He clearly hasn't got the engaging personality that for instance an Andy Farrell has with the media and fans, but appointing Jamie George as captain shows he is smart enough to understand that and try and deal with it.  

I think he is a coach who needs time to implement his ideas and find the players to carry them out, rather than someone who can come in and change things overnight, which is frustrating.  If the RFU did get rid of him, chances are that Steve Diamond would be one of the few available and willing candidates ......

On Borthwick, I think we would all like to see faster progress (and may be more risks taken) but he has to given two years (at least) post world cup and be judged then.

It is not sensible to keep changing and would you get takers if the RFU keeps playing Russian roulette with managers.

But at least we can show our frustrations here.

cb wrote:On Borthwick, I think we would all like to see faster progress (and may be more risks taken) but he has to given two years (at least) post world cup and be judged then.

It is not sensible to keep changing and would you get takers if the RFU keeps playing Russian roulette with managers.

But at least we can show our frustrations here.

This is year two. And last year he had more access to players due to the long pre-RWC camp and the RWC itself. Including the Six Nations (which was obviously a bit of a rush job due to the timing when he was appointed) he had between 5 1/2 - 6 months with the team. Not for nothing, that is a lot of time.

doctor_grey wrote:

cb wrote:On Borthwick, I think we would all like to see faster progress (and may be more risks taken) but he has to given two years (at least) post world cup and be judged then.

It is not sensible to keep changing and would you get takers if the RFU keeps playing Russian roulette with managers.

But at least we can show our frustrations here.

This is year two.  And last year he had more access to players due to the long pre-RWC camp and the RWC itself.  Including the Six Nations (which was obviously a bit of a rush job due to the timing when he was appointed) he had between 5 1/2 - 6 months with the team.  Not for nothing, that is a lot of time.    

Being dropped in before the world cup meant there was a very different set of tactics for that to what is being built now. Similar with the players. For the world cup he focused on making us fitter and more physical than most. Bespoke game plans for each opposition were planned. He can't do that going forward and he knows it, it's why we've seen changes to the coaching staff and if I was a betting man a certain former Bath colleague who's becoming available this summer will be inbound as well.

Borthwick's England are still in transition which is a bit unfortunate because the media won't allow time for that. The adapted South African style defence has at times looked brilliant for us and a real weapon. We are playing significantly more ball in hand, albeit with the accuracy of a half cut pub side. The style of the attack is somewhat reminiscencant of Ireland in the early days of Farrell albeit a more limited version. If Catt does indeed join in the summer then that would confirm the direction of travel. Borthwick is an excellent strategist and set piece coach, Wigglesworth has overseen a strong kicking strategy (less said about the attack the better), Felix Jones brings an aggressive defence that forces errors and then the attack is the major weakness now but if Catt bring being anything close to what he did with Ireland that'll be some team.

Jonny May is very good on this in the thankfully Haskell free latest good bad and rugby podcast. Talks of the stress of not being certain who is playing and of the pressure to perform because there is always someone else the press is pushing for inclusion and nobody has patience.

The end result is that they wanted to see the same team play, because they'll get better with familiarity even if there are some hiccups on the way.

I don't altogether agree. I thank Care was that bad, for instance. But I get the point.

Other interesting comments - on Lawrence (I think this was Tindall) He's a confidence player which meant being dumped straight back in after injury was not necessarily easy for him.

May also talked about how man sausage ups become contagious.

It was a good listen

Yeah I watched that but when Tindall stated the Scotland game was best he'd seen England play for ages I lost interest. Confidence or not, no excuse for those handling errors.

To be honest, GBR is a bit crap these days. Haskell just an annoying clown, Alex Payne smuggest man alive and Tindall usually OK but other two put me off. I used to watch every time but I think analysis and opinion that Goode does with Hamilton more watchable and whilst I don't rate Hamiliton at all, Goode often gets it right for me which is something I never thought I'd say.

Best listen for me is Flats and Shanks although in an hour podcast only get about 10 mins actual rugby, the rest is what they had for dinner etc. I also listen to BBC rugby union podcast with Chris Jones etc and that is usually very good. Apart from Monye.

I find rugby pod good - with big Jim Hamilton and Andy Goode

TJ wrote:I find rugby pod good - with big Jim Hamilton and Andy Goode

Yes that's the one I refer to above. Goode usually on the money.

Rugby pod is good, Dan bigger on it has been great and made the most sense with Goode. Squidge rugby did an interesting analysis of the Scotland performance too. Made a point I hadn't considered that the attack was coming together in terms of shape and moving the ball trying to replicate elements of Ireland's attack but didn't have fluidity. It does account for stats.

I dipped out of The Rugby Pod ages ago. It felt like it was just Goode doing the same schtick every week with very average analysis. It's a shame as Hamilton has grown into a decent pundit. Early in the pod, Jim was really just there for a laugh and didn't offer much about the rugby. He's got better and better though. The RugbyPass stuff Jim now does without Goode is decent. Whilst Goode was still just making jokes about pubes, the size of former teammates Winkle and doing northern accents.

It was one of my two weekly listens when sports podcasts were first getting big. Eggchasers also divebombed when JB lost his mind. A shame. They were excellent at a time for coverage of things that bigger media outlets sometimes don't. Such as breaking down the creative ways in which unions publish their accounts at times.

Le French Rugby Podcast and The Scottish Rugby Podcast are the main two I listen to these days. There's a Tigers specific one, The Rolling Maul, that I like as well but can be a bit long winded.

Yoda wrote:Squidge rugby did an interesting analysis of the Scotland performance too. Made a point I hadn't considered that the attack was coming together in terms of shape and moving the ball trying to replicate elements of Ireland's attack but didn't have fluidity. It does account for stats.

I'm in a Zoom group these days with a few other guys that used to do analysis a few years back. We've drifted onto other things now but fancied a chance to discuss that side of rugby once a week. It's where most my time chatting about rugby goes now, with a bit of Tigers stuff on their board. I predominantly log on 606v2 to keep up with the lovely little community on the cricket boards and see what Douglas Adams type hilarity has ensued on the Scotland thread now.

A South African fellow did an interesting analysis on how they have largely adopted the Box blitz but are having the wingers defend more similarly to the Mitchell system. Similar to that Squidge video. Slade is excellent positionally but doesn't have the pace of Am to cover that outside arc. The England wingers are playing that bit wider to cover more ground. Whereas the Boks wings blitz close to the 13. If Am/Kriel make a dominant tackle they can then target the breakdown. If they think they can cut off the ball going wide they just keep blitzing past the 13. If they are outnumbered then 13 and wing drift together. Having that pace in the 13 channel helps so much with that. As it did with Joseph in Paul Gustard's system. It's a shame that Marchant isn't available. He was strong in the RWC and has the pace for that sort of system.

The other interesting bit that an Irish analyst did was on England seemingly trying to play faster in the first half than second. Which is something Ireland have mastered under Farrell. A lot of their strike plays and going wide off early is done in the first half when both teams are fresh and gaps harder to find against good defences.

In the second half, especially when Murray comes on, Ireland will often play at a slightly slower tempo when teams tire. Kicking longer and more often, then when they get the ball in opposition half, they'll go through a lot of phases without going wide much. Simply shift the point of attack in a relatively risk free manner, trust that gaps will appear when defenders slow. The clip of Murray basically playing bully the tired prop by shifting Dillon Lewis back and forth over a lot of phases until he falls over at the weekend is a great example.

England's ruck speed and 22 entries have been high. The combination of dire handling errors and carriers not getting over the gain line has prevented them doing much with it though. The underlying tactics have shifted significantly from the RWC though.

Whilst Goode was still just making jokes about pubes, the size of former teammates Winkle and doing northern accents.

Yes it was this sort of nonsense that put me off in early days but it seems Goode and Hamilton toned it down a lot now and just mainly talk sense.

Seems like Sam Warburton is on here. In The Times today he suggests Freddie Steward at 12 and Mike Catt as attack coach.

The ship has sailed but Sam Simmonds seemed to have all the attributes to play 12.  Why was he never tried there?

mountain man wrote:Seems like Sam Warburton is on here. In The Times today he suggests Freddie Steward at 12 and Mike Catt as attack coach.

Yeah if it’s the poster I’m thinking of, the one always speaking so highly of AWJ. It all makes sense now.

mountain man wrote:Seems like Sam Warburton is on here. In The Times today he suggests Freddie Steward at 12 and Mike Catt as attack coach.

Such highly original thoughts. I think both have been touted for months now. When Warburton first started doing commentary he was insightful but over time he's become a bit generic.

Catt seems likely, Steward playing at 12 significantly less so.

I'm a bit unsure we should be offering new contracts to coaches quite at this moment. Maybe in the AIs.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm a bit unsure we should be offering new contracts to coaches quite at this moment. Maybe in the AIs.

?

Have I missed something or are you referring to the Catt rumours? Catt leaves Ireland at the same time Sinfield leaves England so it'll be one in and one out.

Just the Catt rumours. Even as a one in one out we currently have an additional coach to last year.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just the Catt rumours. Even as a one in one out we currently have an additional coach to last year.

Wigglesworth was not meant to be the attack coach though. He was supposed to be there to deal with the kicking tactics. Having a dedicated attack and defence coach in plus Harrison as scrum coach makes sense. Borthwick taking the lineout and game strategy.

Shame the ruck coach couldn't stay for longer but he had another gig elsewhere.

Who was supposed to be attack coach then? The other thing to consider is that the new head coach may not want Catt so may as well hang on for the moment.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Like him or loathe him Jones' regime's results overall were very good. Since 2020 it wasn't good enough as he started to put all his eggs into 1 basket.

Another way to put it (or maybe just me) is that Jones had great results during his first contract and he generally sucked the monkey when his extension kicked in.

The England coaching staff at the RWC was on the smaller end of what's normal currently. Having large teams with crossover of roles is increasingly common. It has been ever since the ABs staff under Graham Henry where Wayne Smith was basically the best coach at everything, hence they shifted through roles so Smith could work on the lot. When adding S&C and scrum into the mix, it's generally between a 6-8 man coaching group for the big teams. England were at 6 including Roques at the RWC. So right on that lower end.

England RWC staff
Borthwick
Sinfield - Defence
Wigglesworth - Kicking strategy coach (as per his initial job title)
Harrison - Scrum
Roques - Breakdown and contact area
Walters - S&C

Current England
Borthwick
Jones - Defence
Wigglesworth - Attack
Sinfield - Skills/kicking
Harrison - Scrum
Walters - S&C

Ireland
Farrell
Catt - Attack
Easterby - Defence and lineout
POC - Forwards and lineout
Fogarty - Scrum
Ruddock - S&C

New Zealand
Razor
Ryan - Forwards
MacDonald - Attack
Holland - Assistant attack
Gill - S&C
(Scrum coach is currently unfilled AFAIK with Greg Feek leaving his longstanding role)

Boks
Rassie
Brown - Attack
Flannery - Defence
Davids - Forwards
Stick - Backs
Vermuelen - Assistant forwards and defence (working across SA teams from U20s up to the Boks I believe)
Human - Scrum
Edwards - S&C

France
Galthie
Artlettaz - Backs
Edwards - Defence
Servat - Scrum
Sempere - Lineout
Cilliers - Kicking
Jeanjean - S&C and head of having a great name

Scotland
Toonie
Tandy - Defence
Mooar - Attack
Dalziel - Forwards
De Villiers - Scrum
Horne - Skills (I'm unsure if this is full time or consultancy. Last I knew Horne was also with the WR coaching program)
S&C - Yule

Wales
Gatland
King - Attack
Forshaw - Defence
Humphreys - Forwards
Jenkins - Kicking (still...)
Thomas - Contact
Bennett - S&C

It's also very common for specialists in specific areas to come in on a consultancy basis for shorter periods. England have used Kruis for that with the lineout a few times now AFAIK. I believe Wilkinson has been working with kicking part time too over this Six Nations.

I am delighted with Jones being added. Another more experienced assistant, ideally an attack coach if Jones has settled in the defence role, is needed.

That swiftly wiped Torygraph article saying Gustard was close to signing suggested they were looking for another experienced assistant coach to join as well as Jones. The beauty of Jones being able to coach attack and defence to an elite level is they could look at either role. Gustard would have likely coached a similar system to what they've shifted to with Jones as well.

doctor_grey wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Like him or loathe him Jones' regime's results overall were very good. Since 2020 it wasn't good enough as he started to put all his eggs into 1 basket.

Another way to put it (or maybe just me) is that Jones had great results during his first contract and he generally sucked the monkey when his extension kicked in.

Laughed at loud at that and have never heard that expression! I still think he became absolutely obsessed with the WC above all else. The RFU really should have had more of a grip on it and let it run on for too long. Or potentially that's what the RFUs aim was too and then they got never out seeing more empty seats and hearing the booing.

Class coach though.