England - The Next Episode

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The next stage of development....progression or failure....who can tell.

Fond memories of Manu taking the pi$$ out of Basteraud

Funny how quickly the debate has shifted from questioning whether Ben Earl really gives England a balanced back row, to wondering who else could possibly play his role.

Earl has carried for 350m during the tournament so far, which puts him second behind James Lowe (371) overall. He's ahead of Cameron Winnett (344), Duhan can der Merwe (338) and Damian Penaud (334). The next best forward is Aaron Wainwright (212), down in 18th place.

Rugby Fan wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:At this point I think Manu is done with England, or perhaps he gets a run Saturday then is done.

Telegraph says Borthwick is considering having Manu on the bench with Daly to start. Roots to come in for C-S on the bench.

Would provide impact from the bench, also if Lawrence suffers an injury would be good to have some size to bring on into the backline.

Rugby Fan wrote:Funny how quickly the debate has shifted from questioning whether Ben Earl really gives England a balanced back row, to wondering who else could possibly play his role.

Earl has carried for 350m during the tournament so far, which puts him second behind James Lowe (371) overall. He's ahead of Cameron Winnett (344), Duhan can der Merwe (338) and Damian Penaud (334). The next best forward is Aaron Wainwright (212), down in 18th place.

Ben Earl has brought what all Saracens fans have been watching for years...hes an outstanding 7 with several points of difference. What was interesting was his own admission that his fitness was still not good enough for this level...and now thats been addressed (the camp prior to the world cup) hes flying. I see him as our 7 once CCS takes that 8 spot. Then you can pick a 6 horses for courses....

If Manu makes the bench that is purely to thank him for his outstanding service to England. A super way to finish his international career with a clash against his nephew! The main problem over the last decade has been what to do without Manu and we never really solved it. I am not sure we have now either, but hopefully Lawrence can really grow into the international game.

But might we need a 6:2 bench split considering that France have rather large and excellent forwards?

Large yes. Not sure how many are actually playing well enough to be called excellent.

hugehandoff wrote:...The main problem over the last decade has been what to do without Manu and we never really solved it...

Funny thing is, we did solve it.

Initially, Manu was only available to Eddie Jones for an appearance off the bench in the Six Nations match against Wales in 2016. He didn't play a Test again until November 2018.

That means our longest run of Test victories, which is still tied with NZ for the longest record run overall, featured Manu only once, for 16 minutes. That run included a Grand Slam, an unprecedented tour whitewash of Australia, and Autumn wins over South Africa, Argentina, Fiji and Australia. The main centre partnership over that period was Farrell and Jonathan Joseph.

lostinwales wrote:Large yes. Not sure how many are actually playing well enough to be called excellent.

Alldritt and Ollivon always really good. England I think can cope up front, it's containing the backs is more what concerns me about France.

Are France any more physical than Ireland? Im not so sure...

Less dynamic possibly but as physical yes I'd say purely on size and power.
However I think England can cope up front as they did against SA.

Good podcast with Johno today on BBC rugby union about England France rivalry

England haven't replaced Jonathan Joseph,  since he was dropped (too early) from the test scene. Pace and clever defensive alignment plus a proven chip through and more intercepts than most outside centres can dream of, in his career.
The French lineout is there for the taking and Ramos at ten, if selected, could be pressured. The French 9,10&12 are big misses for the way this French team normally operates. The scrum with a home crowd could be difficult too, so numbers of scrums need to be kept to a minimum.

As usual England's last game of the 6N is away and with a SH ref.  England's record with that combination is terrible, but given last weeks performance,  strangely confident.

Dupont a miss but LeGarrec looks a decent replacement!

Recwatcher16 wrote:England haven't replaced Jonathan Joseph,  since he was dropped (too early) from the test scene. Pace and clever defensive alignment plus a proven chip through and more intercepts than most outside centres can dream of, in his career.
The French lineout is there for the taking and Ramos at ten, if selected, could be pressured. The French 9,10&12 are big misses for the way this French team normally operates. The scrum with a home crowd could be difficult too, so numbers of scrums need to be kept to a minimum.

As usual England's last game of the 6N is away and with a SH ref.  England's record with that combination is terrible, but given last weeks performance,  strangely confident.

Joe Marchant was long the obvious replacement but Eddie seemed almost willfully resistant to using him at OC. I think he showed at the RWC that that's his best position, and if he comes back to the Prem I'd expect him to be in pole position - but there are a good few other candidates including his successors at Quins in Will Joseph and Oscar Beard. At this point, I'd still go for Marchant because of his reading of the game (he is one of the best players around at transitional play) and because he offers an excellent target for Marcus Smith with either the pass or the boot.

Merchant can also play wing which ticks utility box as well.

What does it say about the Borthwick influence if Marchant comes back to the Prem earlier than expected from a Stade Francais team that's going well this season?

Is Borthwick and England reason he is returning?

Poorfour wrote:I'd still go for Marchant because of his reading of the game.

Marchant is also able to field kicks catching the ball in two hands over his head. One of his teammates - possibly Jonny May - mentioned how Marchant has always been comfortable doing that, and it can give him an edge contesting a high ball.

formerly known as Sam wrote:What does it say about the Borthwick influence if Marchant comes back to the Prem earlier than expected from a Stade Francais team that's going well this season?

That he probably isnt going to be sacked after this 6n....

What? I heard he was definitely sacked by summer

Rugby Fan wrote:

Poorfour wrote:I'd still go for Marchant because of his reading of the game.

Marchant is also able to field kicks catching the ball in two hands over his head. One of his teammates - possibly Jonny May - mentioned how Marchant has always been comfortable doing that, and it can give him an edge contesting a high ball.

For a relatively short guy he's always been very comfortable in the air. One of my all time favourite rugby memories is of Smith pushing a penalty kick wide in an evening game against Saracens and Marchant leaping over the line to claim the ball and score a try before anyone else had realised what was happening. That moment sums up a lot about his game - intelligence, reactions, pace, ability under the high ball and a real talent for the unexpected.

formerly known as Sam wrote:What does it say about the Borthwick influence if Marchant comes back to the Prem earlier than expected from a Stade Francais team that's going well this season?

It says he's selecting him and prepared to make him a key member of the squad rather than a fringe one.

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:What does it say about the Borthwick influence if Marchant comes back to the Prem earlier than expected from a Stade Francais team that's going well this season?

It says he's selecting him and prepared to make him a key member of the squad rather than a fringe one.

Mercer..."hold my beer...."

Geordie wrote:

Mercer..."hold my beer...."

"...while I have a whine about not being selected."

The difference being that Marchant went from a bit part player under Eddie to a core player in the RWC squad, whereas Mercer has never been more than a fringe option.

Poorfour wrote:

Geordie wrote:

Mercer..."hold my beer...."

"...while I have a whine about not being selected."

The difference being that Marchant went from a bit part player under Eddie to a core player in the RWC squad, whereas Mercer has never been more than a fringe option.

Ah i know...just messing.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Poorfour wrote:I'd still go for Marchant because of his reading of the game.

Marchant is also able to field kicks catching the ball in two hands over his head. One of his teammates - possibly Jonny May - mentioned how Marchant has always been comfortable doing that, and it can give him an edge contesting a high ball.

Jones mentioned his aerial skills a few times I believe. He is brilliant in the air. As good as strong fullbacks or wingers in that regard. Which makes him elite from a centres perspective. It's a very useful skill to have as it means you don't always have to take a winger out of the defensive line for the following phase in order to contest a kick.

I think Marchant would slot back into the current tactics pretty much perfectly. The territorial strategies are regaining huge percentages of contested kicks. Whilst he's got the pace and decision making to perform the OCs role in the blitz.

Slade has had a decent Six Nations though in fairness. The left footed kicking option has taken pressure of others when required, whilst he's done as well I think could've been expected at marshalling a brand new defensive system.

Looking ahead to the summer.

Rapava-Ruskin is returning for Glaws this weekend which is cracking to see.

Daly back in the side.

Manu and Roots on the bench.

Starting 15 the same other than Daly.

king_carlos wrote:Looking ahead to the summer.

Rapava-Ruskin is returning for Glaws this weekend which is cracking to see.

Is he a player you think will interest Borthwick? i refer specifically to his "rumoured" lack of work ethic towards training and fitness....

IMO Daly is playing for a place on the summer tour...so he needs a big performance. Im not sure hes capable now at this level...

Geordie wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Looking ahead to the summer.

Rapava-Ruskin is returning for Glaws this weekend which is cracking to see.

Is he a player you think will interest Borthwick? i refer specifically to his "rumoured" lack of work ethic towards training and fitness....

He was in the initial training squads in the summer, so I'd presume he's rated in some way. I haven't heard rumours around his fitness.

I've said before that I don't really see him as a started ahead of Genge or Marler. Quite a few were arguing that last season with his Glaws form. I just don't quite see that though. He's 31 after all, so not really a prospect, and I don't think his best scrummaging performances at Prem level have as dominant as Genge and Marler have been at that level at times. I think VRR is in that battle with Obano, Rodd and Baxter for the next best though.

Geordie wrote:IMO Daly is playing for a place on the summer tour...so he needs a big performance. Im not sure hes capable now at this level...

There's a big gap between the way England coaches see Daly, and the way fans see him. He's such a useful player to have, so would really need to have a shocker to become surplus to requirements (He's also best mates with Jamie George).

15. George Furbank
14. Tommy Freeman
13. Henry Slade
12. Ollie Lawrence
11. Elliot Daly
10. George Ford - vice captain
9. Alex Mitchell
1. Ellis Genge - vice captain
2. Jamie George - captain  
3. Dan Cole
4. Maro Itoje - vice captain    
5. George Martin
6. Ollie Chessum
7. Sam Underhill
8. Ben Earl
Replacements
16. Theo Dan
17. Joe Marler  
18. Will Stuart
19. Ethan Roots
20. Alex Dombrandt
21. Danny Care
22. Marcus Smith
23. Manu Tuilagi

Rugby Fan wrote:

Geordie wrote:IMO Daly is playing for a place on the summer tour...so he needs a big performance. Im not sure hes capable now at this level...

There's a big gap between the way England coaches see Daly, and the way fans see him. He's such a useful player to have, so would really need to have a shocker to become surplus to requirements (He's also best mates with Jamie George).

Oh i appreciate that...Daly has alround and kicking skills that coaches love. But he came on v Ireland and made 3 errors almost immediately. And i dont believe his experience and all round skills are creating a hugely positive effect on games.

Is he a squad member for the tour...maybe due to numbers and multi positions etc...but i think his time is limited now with England.

king_carlos wrote:

Geordie wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Looking ahead to the summer.

Rapava-Ruskin is returning for Glaws this weekend which is cracking to see.

Is he a player you think will interest Borthwick? i refer specifically to his "rumoured" lack of work ethic towards training and fitness....

He was in the initial training squads in the summer, so I'd presume he's rated in some way. I haven't heard rumours around his fitness.

I've said before that I don't really see him as a started ahead of Genge or Marler. Quite a few were arguing that last season with his Glaws form. I just don't quite see that though. He's 31 after all, so not really a prospect, and I don't think his best scrummaging performances at Prem level have as dominant as Genge and Marler have been at that level at times. I think VRR is in that battle with Obano, Rodd and Baxter for the next best though.

Yeah i agree with that...i think previously he was worth a look but i think now it would be a wasted pick over say Baxter or Obano...im still not convinced on Rodd either.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Geordie wrote:IMO Daly is playing for a place on the summer tour...so he needs a big performance. Im not sure hes capable now at this level...

There's a big gap between the way England coaches see Daly, and the way fans see him. He's such a useful player to have, so would really need to have a shocker to become surplus to requirements (He's also best mates with Jamie George).

I've repeatedly watched games at the RWC and now this Six Nations thinking that Daly has played well, then come on here at half time or after the game to see what folk think and he's apparently been useless. I feel like I'm seeing different things too.

He's strong positionally, such a useful kicking option, covers all three back field roles England utilise during kick tennis, has shown decent hands again at times this tournament, is excellent at winning ball back in England's kick chase strategy where the rabbit bypasses the shield and taps it back, he can step into the 13s defensive role when Slade is in a ruck. He's made some huge hits since returning to the side too. He's just a really good rugby player. Yet he's become the latest bogey man for some fans.

As said several times, I see obvious parallels between what Ireland got from Keith Earls in the last RWC cycle and how useful Daly could be for England in the coming one.

Manu swan song maybe?

Starting XV no surprise. Hopefully Mitchell can go the 80. Smith on a bit earlier than last week please.

king_carlos wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

Geordie wrote:IMO Daly is playing for a place on the summer tour...so he needs a big performance. Im not sure hes capable now at this level...

There's a big gap between the way England coaches see Daly, and the way fans see him. He's such a useful player to have, so would really need to have a shocker to become surplus to requirements (He's also best mates with Jamie George).

I've repeatedly watched games at the RWC and now this Six Nations thinking that Daly has played well, then come on here at half time or after the game to see what folk think and he's apparently been useless. I feel like I'm seeing different things too.

He's strong positionally, such a useful kicking option, covers all three back field roles England utilise during kick tennis, has shown decent hands again at times this tournament, is excellent at winning ball back in England's kick chase strategy where the rabbit bypasses the shield and taps it back, he can step into the 13s defensive role when Slade is in a ruck. He's made some huge hits since returning to the side too. He's just a really good rugby player. Yet he's become the latest bogey man for some fans.

As said several times, I see obvious parallels between what Ireland got from Keith Earls in the last RWC cycle and how useful Daly could be for England in the coming one.

I appreciate what Daly brings and what he has, but im just not seeing his performances as strongly as you are suggesting there KC. Maybe i havent focused as closely on him as i should...so ill make a point to watch him closely v France and watch his input individually and for the team.

mountain man wrote:Manu swan song maybe?

Starting XV no surprise. Hopefully Mitchell can go the 80. Smith on a bit earlier than last week please.

Probably about right for Manu.

Mitchell tends to fade towards the end of games. He's made some poor errors for Saints late in games. He plays at such a tempo he won't last the 80 mins and asking him to do so just isn't a good idea. Hopefully he can go for more than an hour though.

Ford played well last weekend, very well if you overlook issues off the kicking tee. He ran the attack superbly and his game management was fantastic. Marcus Smith adds brilliant impact and is a classy player but I'd not rush him onto the pitch. Particularly if we are winning by a small margin.

It's rare for SHs to play the whole 80 at international level. There's more phases than ever before for them to cover and you need to have actually have a defensive output now to be a decent international 9. It's a brutal position in the modern game.

Even Dupont would often shift to 10 to take some load off later in the game if France wanted to keep him on for the full match. He played the full QF at 9 and looked absolutely f***ed by the end. I don't think it's hyperbole to say Dupont's the best rugby player I've seen and he struggles to play a full game in the position.

It may also have something to do with usually being the smallest player in the 15 and every big lump is aiming to cream you or the 10 off every play. The wear and tear of being smaller needs to be accounted for.

Geordie wrote:
Yeah i agree with that...i think previously he was worth a look but i think now it would be a wasted pick over say Baxter or Obano...im still not convinced on Rodd either.

Baxter has been handled carefully but looks like he is ready to take over from Marler when the latter retires. He certainly doesn't give Quins fans conniptions when he takes the field (which is very un-Quinlike of him, tbh).

There's also Opoku-Fordjour, Fasogbon and Jibulu coming through the age grades and looking like they could leapfrog the older generation by 2027. Quins are not short of decent young hookers with Riley, Head and Musk behind Walker, but Jibulu already looks perfectly at home in that company, and Marler's (positive) opinion on Opoku-Fordjour is already well known.

Steward still not in 23 which is interesting.

As and when Smith gets on other than an injury will entirely depend how game pans out. I think he just offers so much more in attack and I'd say his defence is better than Ford. I'm not criticising Ford who I think is an excellent 10, just high lighting what Smith brings.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:It may also have something to do with usually being the smallest player in the 15 and every big lump is aiming to cream you or the 10 off every play. The wear and tear of being smaller needs to be accounted for.

In defence he's in the backfield, in attack he's at the breakdown. A lot of shuttling up and down the pitch required. At least in the backfield there's less tackling of large units but it's not a light shift he's doing.

mountain man wrote:Steward still not in 23 which is interesting.

As and when Smith gets on other than an injury will entirely depend how game pans out. I think he just offers so much more in attack and I'd say his defence is better than Ford. I'm not criticising Ford who I think is an excellent 10, just high lighting what Smith brings.

I also really really rate Ford, but 6Ns Ford doesn't seem quite on the level of World Cup Ford - and I can't help but wonder if it's to do with the departure of his old training buddy Farrell? In the World Cup I was definitely in favour of Ford rather than Smith, now I'd probably favour Smith starting. Having to decide between two good 10s is not the worst problem to have though either way.

Poorfour wrote:

Geordie wrote:
Yeah i agree with that...i think previously he was worth a look but i think now it would be a wasted pick over say Baxter or Obano...im still not convinced on Rodd either.

Baxter has been handled carefully but looks like he is ready to take over from Marler when the latter retires. He certainly doesn't give Quins fans conniptions when he takes the field (which is very un-Quinlike of him, tbh).

There's also Opoku-Fordjour, Fasogbon and Jibulu coming through the age grades and looking like they could leapfrog the older generation by 2027. Quins are not short of decent young hookers with Riley, Head and Musk behind Walker, but Jibulu already looks perfectly at home in that company, and Marler's (positive) opinion on Opoku-Fordjour is already well known.

Hasn't Marler said he'll retire from Int. Rugby in 2025. Cole will probably be away before that...so that's a LH and TH to find over the next year

Obano would probably be the frontrunner but his biggest issue seems to be staying injury free at the moment. So Baxter could well make that LH spot..

Brantingham had made the starting shirt with us...so he should push on nicely with Saracens...

Hayes hopefully will really step up now and give us another option at TH...

Painter makes Cole look like a winger so has no chance...

The younger guys...Fasogabon, Fdjour, Sella etc...probably a couple of years away?

I think the problem with Daly is that he isn't as quick as he used to be and out on the wing the things he gets wrong are really obvious.

I would say he's been doing some good things coming into the line and distributing. I do get what KC is saying. I think we all miss IFW though, as he's very exciting to watch and is very much the kind of player who is a pain to defend against. (On a related subject how the hell are the two Irish back who went off last weekend able to play this one?)

Big wrote:

mountain man wrote:Steward still not in 23 which is interesting.

As and when Smith gets on other than an injury will entirely depend how game pans out. I think he just offers so much more in attack and I'd say his defence is better than Ford. I'm not criticising Ford who I think is an excellent 10, just high lighting what Smith brings.

I also really really rate Ford, but 6Ns Ford doesn't seem quite on the level of World Cup Ford - and I can't help but wonder if it's to do with the departure of his old training buddy Farrell?  In the World Cup I was definitely in favour of Ford rather than Smith, now I'd probably favour Smith starting.  Having to decide between two good 10s is not the worst problem to have though either way.

I thought I heard (or read) somewhere the original plan for the Six Nations before his injury was to start Smith M..  I thought Smith F., if not injured, would have been coming off the bench.  Or am I nuts?  

And why do people named Smith get hurt?

Ford and Daly seemed to get marked down most by pundits and supporters after the weekend but others probably had more costly errors.

Furbank got isolated in one of our early attacks close to the Irish line, and gave away a penalty for holding on. His knock-on led to Lawrence's try being disallowed, and then his foot in touch gave away field position which led to points for Ireland. If Daly had done that, then he'd probably have been scored a 4 in the match ratings. Furbank's selection is generally being praised.

Similarly, Chessum is rightly seen as a success. Nevertheless, when we decided to go for touch around the 20 minute mark, Chessum was at the back of the ruck as Beirne reached over to make the key turnover. 10 minutes later, Chessum got isolated, and gave away Ireland's third penalty.

Ford and Daly are both younger than players like Finn Russell, Damian de Allende, Willie le Roux and Beauden Barrett. If they are helping England to wins, then they should still be in the selection mix.

Ford and Daly are both younger than players like Finn Russell, Damian de Allende, Willie le Roux and Beauden Barrett. If they are helping England to wins, then they should still be in the selection mix.

IFW immediately showed what England have been crying out for a long time. Someone with proper pace, power and ability to make a big difference. Daly been a good player for England but the contrast is pretty stark to me and Daly has been and is prone to some bad errors.
He might have a game winning match tomorrow which I'd be more than happy with but I'd hoping to see likes of Murley, Sleightholme and Roebuck given a look post 6N.