The Best Win Column in History

This thread I imagine will favour the fighters of old, back in time when they fought more often and less discriminantly although i'm also interested to hear your views on their more modern counterparts

In short which fighters have the best win columns, only taking into account a fighters win, so although they may have fought an opponent 4/5/6 times if they only have one win in the series than than that is all that matters

Floyd Mayweather

Care to elaborate?

Prime Castillo
Unbeaten Hatton
Unbeaten Corrales
HOF Hernandez
147 champ Mosley
154 champ De La Hoya
P4P No.3 Marquez
Ring champ Baldomir

Want me to carry on?

Will admit I see one possibly two great wins in their but by no means the best of all time

Not surprisingly, I'm going for Harry Greb.

He has wins over eighteen world champions from welter up to heavy. Best record in the history of boxing, for me.

Will admit Windy i'm doing a bit of research and need some help from esteemed posters like yourself, what would you say are Grebs best wins because I would imagine that some of those champions weren't of the highest quality although it is very hard to overlook Grebs record as being right up there.

Not sure I'm worthy of such a nice compliment, Ghosty, but thank you.

Here we go :

Mike O’Dowd, George Chip, Al McCoy, Mickey Walker, ( who had also been welter champion, ) Tiger Flowers and Johnny Wilson at middle, plus four middleweight title claimants in Eddie McGoorty, Frank Mantell, Jeff Smith and Bryan Downey.

Mike McTigue, Jack Dillon, Battling Levinsky, Tommy Loughran, Jimmy Slattery and Maxie Rosenbloom at lightheavy and one future world heavyweight champion, Gene Tunney.

Fair to say that McGoorty, Mantell, Smith and Downey aren't household names, but the rest certainly are. He also fought Billy Miske and many others of similar calibre.

Truly astonishing record.

Have to say Al McCoy would have to go down as possibly the worst champion of all time bar almost none

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Have to say Al McCoy would have to go down as possibly the worst champion of all time bar almost none

True, and I meant to count him among the ' non household name ' group ( honestly ! ) but we can also add in men such as the Gibbons brothers, Mike and Tommy, Frank Klaus, Gunboat Smith and many others, many of whom held significant weight advantage over Greb. I truly don't see how his record can be topped. Not even by Armstrong or Robinson or Charles or Pep or the other usual candidates for ATG status.

Just my opinion, though.

That's the strange thing with Robinson and Armstrong, despite being consensus top three guys there records don't really compare to that of either Charles or Greb who stand almost alone at the top in that regard.

Greb has the quantity but would say that Charles has the quality in my humble opinion

I'm sure you wouldn't be alone in picking Charles, Ghosty, and I wouldn't argue too strenuously.

What persuades me to pick Greb, though, is the combination of excellent names, ( most of whom were bigger than he, ) together with over three hundred fights and only eight losses.

I find that almost beyond belief.

Thing that swings it for me are Charles' wins over Burley, Moore and Louis, while Louis was past his best it was still a magnificent achievement for a former Middleweight to beat such a brilliant champion.

Windy, can you even prove Greb existed?

Seriously though, Greb and Charles both have astonishing records and are probably without equal in this respect.

Just to throw another name out there, Jeffries has a solid CV. I'm not for one minute saying he has a record comparable to Greb or Charles, but purely in the context of his time and weight, he at least deserves a mention. Corbett, Fizsimmons, Jackson, Sharkey. All great names for his era and division.

Hide would still hammer him though.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

Hide would still hammer him though.

Ha !

In under two rounds, Tino.

Ali has a fantastic collection of wins as well. Liston, Frazier, Foreman are the obvious ones but the rest of his record is pretty stellar.

Ah yes the indominatable Herbie Hide, feels so good being able to discuss without our best friend jumping in and ruining it

Feel really dirty using a smiley but felt it was required

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Ah yes the indominatable Herbie Hide, feels so good being able to discuss without our best friend jumping in and ruining it

Feel really dirty using a smiley but felt it was required

Still not sure whether his tongue was firmly in his cheek or not!

The obvious names have already been covered; when it comes to the win column, Greb and Charles are miles ahead of the rest, though I feel that Armstrong is good value to be ranked alongside them; Barney Ross, Lou Ambers, Benny Bass, Baby Arizmendi, Pedro Montanez, Fritzie Zivic, Ceferino Garcia, Mike Belloise, Petey Sarron, Lew Jenkins, Bobby Pacho, Davey Day, Tippy Larkin, Al 'Bummy' Davis, Sammy Angott - absolutely incredible record, enough for me to edge him ahead or at least on an equal footing with Robinson, who is another obvious contender.

Outside of the most obvious names, I'd offer up Lou Ambers himself. Canzoneri, Montanez, Armstrong, Arizmendi and Zivic as his five best wins - and yet he's 'only' a borerline top ten Lightweight, and wouldn't grace anyone's top forty pound for pound, in all likelihood.

Jimmy McLarnin, too. Al Singer, Lou Brouillard, Barney Ross, Young Corbett III, Tony Canzoneri and Ambers at the end to name just a few. Phenomenal record.

Zivic doesn't do too badly:

Charley Burley
Kid Azteka
Jake LaMotta
Freddie Cochrane
Henry Armstrong
Lew Jenkins
Sammy Angott
Eddie Booker

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Will admit I see one possibly two great wins in their but by no means the best of all time

Prime Castillo - GREAT WIN
Unbeaten Hatton - GREAT WIN
Unbeaten Corrales - GREAT WIN
HOF Hernandez - GREAT WIN
147 champ Mosley - GREAT WIN
154 champ De La Hoya - GREAT WIN
P4P No.3 Marquez - GREAT WIN
Ring champ Baldomir - GREAT WIN
Former 147 champ - Zab "super" Judah - GREAT WIN
Former world champion - Sharmba Mitchell - GREAT WIN
Former world champion and people's champ - Arturo Gatti - GREAT WIN
Former world champion - DeMarcus Corley and first time ever he is knocked down in a fight - GREAT WIN
Former world champion - Jesus Chavez and first time ever stopped - GREAT WIN
Soon to be Victor Ortiz - ANOTHER GREAT WIN
6 time world champion in 5 different weight classes
41-0 with 25 knockouts
Holds the highest percentage of landing shots
Holds the highest percentage of gates
Took less punishment
Holds the record for PPV in the UK and USA
Holds the 2nd biggest PPV record in WWE Wrestlemania history
Knocked out the 500 pound Big Show
Beat countless World champions and pound for pounders in only 41 fights, who else done that? You tell me!
All roads lead to Floyd Mayweather, no boxer holds a candle to the greatest boxer of all time; Floyd Mayweather

Strange definition of what is a great win but could you please keep your ludicrous ideas off my threads in future

Come on for a Sunday morning something to do before cricket and Shantel is on the wum again. The seriousness stopped when i saw Sharmba Mitchells name.... Not quite the same as when you look down the list of SRR (for me he has the greatest 'w' column), Greb, Tunney et co etc.

Anyway, have a good day lads and someone please put shantel and his wummish comments on a leash for when i get back tomorrow!!

Canzoneri, Mclarnin and Ambers have impressive win columns, it's hard to separate who has the best out of those 3.

Scottrf wrote:Zivic doesn't do too badly:

Charley Burley
Kid Azteka
Jake LaMotta
Freddie Cochrane
Henry Armstrong
Lew Jenkins
Sammy Angott
Eddie Booker

You're not really counting Burley as a Zivic win though, surely - cos he cheated him and lost (or so most people at ringside thought, though not all newspaper men so it may have been close, in fairness).

The rest are all pretty good wins from what was a relatively limited fighter.

Greb would be my vote - with Charles, Canzoneri, Ross, Robinson and Armstrong close behind.

I'd like to give an honourable mention to Burley as well (Zivic, Wade, Moore, Soose, Hogue, Cocoa Kid and Chase plus a host of lesser names). Not bad considering how many didn't want to fight him.

I've got a slight fixation with the black murderers row at the moment but many of the names included fought and beat members with great regularity which leads me to ask were they actually that damm good or has their stock risen due to not getting title shots?

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I've got a slight fixation with the black murderers row at the moment but many of the names included fought and beat members with great regularity which leads me to ask were they actually that damm good or has their stock risen due to not getting title shots?

I suppose the mitigating argument would be that if you were to put the top X many fighters from one division in a round robin, someone has to come last, or thereabouts.

Imagine though that Burley fights Robinson and loses but goes on to win a title later on, think it's safe to say his reputation wouldn't be what it is now, take out their wins over each other and what's left is a record of a decent contender rather than someone you'd think of as a world class operator.

Yeah, a lot of their reputations are built on 'what if', which does make it very hard to assess them accurately. It's like if Duran, Leonard, Hearns and Hagler never fought each other, or at least not as much as they did. You'd have people saying "oh, well Hearns starched Duran, so he'd clearly destroy Hagler, because Duran ran Hagler close in comparison".

You get peaks when the overall standard is particularly high which elevates the best of that particular era to a whole new level, if we're honest no matter who Pacquiao or Mayweather beat that's around today it's never going to be enough to see them break the elite all time great level.

What ifs are often better than the real thing

It's the 'what if's that provide about 75% of the subject matter on here, isn't it?

If it all happened we'd all be singing off the same hymm sheet which would be boring, I just love the mystique and intrigue that goes with some fighters. Someone like Burley has an aura about him which Hopkins shares but someone like Cotto doesn't, it's a very romanticised sport

BALTIMORA wrote:It's the 'what if's that provide about 75% of the subject matter on here, isn't it?

More than that given the number of posts Pacquiao/Mayweather debate got.

Thing with the Black Murderers row is when they were allowed to step up against current/future champions - they did quite well. Look at Burley-Zivic. Burley was thrown in with Zivic when VERY green - and most in the audience (apparently) thought he'd won. He then went on to beat Zivic twice. Zivic, in no time at all has beaten Armstrong and is the WW champ of the world. After buying out Burley's contract - so Burley has beaten the world champion in recent times twice - but can't fight for the title. A ridiculous situation. Anyways - after that he got bigger and better - but never had his shot - but fought the black murderers row in brutal tough fights.

Ergo - after being better than the "world WW champ" - he then went on to grow better still.

There's a lot of ifs and maybes in that though.

The BMR were in my opinion a step up everything around at the time and with the exception of Robinson, Gavilan, Moore and Charles would have monopolised Welterweight up to Light Heavyweight. Imagine if they were around today, my god

I think the Murderers row is over romantacised by some quarters. They were a collection of good fighters who proved they could compete with the best when given the chance. They deserved more opportunities.

But Ive seen them given almost mythical status by some boxing historians as a some kind of hidden elite fighters that would have dominated if given half a chance. Their records are good but dont suggest they were a step above the competition at the time.

I see them as Winky Wright type figures with less title opportunities. Good fighters that are tough for anyone and well capable of winning a title, but not the invincible kind of figures that had the whole boxing world running scared. If you cut their records down to the top level competition they faced then it paints a slighty more realistic picture of where they were at.

With regards to Burley, from analysing his merits in relation to the HoF thread I definately think he benefits from the "avoided" mystique as his the actual percentage of top ranked fighters he beats in comparison to who was active is quite small. Someone like Bivins on the other hand has less of an aura because although he never got a shot at the tilte, he faced pretty much everyone there was to face and in my opinion has a mucher better win list than Burley, but also a heavier loss column as reflective of the high quality he faced consistently.

Can't accept putting them on the same level as Wright, they were far far better than that

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Can't accept putting them on the same level as Wright, they were far far better than that

Not neccessarily in my view.

Look at the likes of Holman Williams. He was 3-3 with Burley overall. But when he did face the top non Murders Rows guys who were champions and contenders he lost to Cerdan, LaMotta, Lytell, Carter, Basora and Tunero at various points. He wasnt actually mercilessly avoided, he just never got title shots.

Its a common theme for the MR fighters. Most of them werent actually avoided by the top guys as much as made out (Burley perhaps the exception at WW). They just didnt get title shots. And their records against the non murder rows guys doesnt really suggest to me they would have monopolised the divisions without SRR, Gavilan, Charles and Moore. They were definately capable of winning titles but they werent the cut above the rest that they are made out.

Can't agree at all on that, Williams was a good few years past his peak by the time he lost to Lamotta, they excelled in the years before Cerdan and Lamotta so using those results against them is like using Lebedev against Jones.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Can't agree at all on that, Williams was a good few years past his peak by the time he lost to Lamotta, they excelled in the years before Cerdan and Lamotta so using those results against them is like using Lebedev against Jones.

Its less than a year after he scored wins over the likes of Burley, Wade, Henry, Lytell and Moore who were all top ranked guys so its unlikely he would have been that finished. Jones last did something meaningful about 7 years ago.

Still think MR fighters records against the top tier guys is sufficiently mixed to indicate they were competitive in the top end but not a step above.

Even if you took out Moore, Charles, Gavilan and SRR there is still enough quality around to lead me to believe the MR would would not monopolise.

Armstrong, LaMotta, Cerdan, Graziano, Zale, Overlin, Garcia, Lesnevitch, Basora, Maxim, Yarosz plus a whole host of other non MR contenders would still provide enough problems to prevent some kind of monopoly.

Post Armstrong, if you took SRR and Gavilan out of WW then the division was quite weak and Williams/Burley could have had some years there as champion until they outgrew it. But between MW and LH there is still plenty of quality without Moore (who was inconsistent anyway during the MR years) and Charles.

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manos de piedra wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Can't agree at all on that, Williams was a good few years past his peak by the time he lost to Lamotta, they excelled in the years before Cerdan and Lamotta so using those results against them is like using Lebedev against Jones.

Its less than a year after he scored wins over the likes of Burley, Wade, Henry, Lytell and Moore who were all top ranked guys so its unlikely he would have been that finished. Jones last did something meaningful about 7 years ago.

Still think MR fighters records against the top tier guys is sufficiently mixed to indicate they were competitive in the top end but not a step above.

Even if you took out Moore, Charles, Gavilan and SRR there is still enough quality around to lead me to believe the MR would would not monopolise.

Armstrong, LaMotta, Cerdan, Graziano, Zale, Overlin, Garcia, Lesnevitch, Basora, Maxim, Yarosz plus a whole host of other non MR contenders would still provide enough problems to prevent some kind of monopoly.

Post Armstrong, if you took SRR and Gavilan out of WW then the division was quite weak and Williams/Burley could have had some years there as champion until they outgrew it. But between MW and LH there is still plenty of quality without Moore (who was inconsistent anyway during the MR years) and Charles.

For the murderers row - all of them were good boxers. in terms of "stepping up" - when they finally were given their shots, half the time they had huge stipulations against them, were injured and other times they were rumoured to be paid to take a dive. Which really messes up our game of rankings and what-ifs.

Burley was given a real shout at WW against Robinson - which tells everything about his ability. And he says that he was fighting at MW whilst still weighing in at 152-153 (so he claims). Allegedly he lied in every weigh in he did.

He'd beaten Zivic twice just before Zivic won the WW crown - there's nothing to suggest he couldn't have done as well - if he'd been given his shot.

I respect the likes of Robinson, Ali, Greb, Armstrong etc

But their record cant compare to Floyd Mayweather, Floyd Mayweather could quite easily pad up the record with another 159 bums. When you earn $100m dollar pay days what the point fighting every month when you can do it once or twice a year.

Bums ?

Greb has far more great wins than does Mayweather, and so do the others. Every fighter has a few less than stellar names on his record, including Pretty Boy.

The ratio of HOFers to ' average ' fighters is what counts, and Mayweather doesn't even come close by that criterion.

Genius, is it me or is the quality of your posts deteriorating quicker than Mayweather's respectability as a human being? I find it rather challenging to take you at all seriously.

The genius of PBF wrote:I respect the likes of Robinson, Ali, Greb, Armstrong etc

But their record cant compare to Floyd Mayweather, Floyd Mayweather could quite easily pad up the record with another 159 bums. When you earn $100m dollar pay days what the point fighting every month when you can do it once or twice a year.

These guy's were making a living though, and if they were getting paid that much, they too would only fight once or twice a year.

PBF - pop question, I'm sure its on everyone's mind.

SRR - PBF at welter.

Who wins and how?

Sugar Ray Leonard for me is up there
Benitez, Duran, Hearns 3 at WW better than anything any welterweight's done in my lifetime.

Young_Towzer wrote:Sugar Ray Leonard for me is up there
Benitez, Duran, Hearns 3 at WW better than anything any welterweight's done in my lifetime.

I'll grant that when it comes to three or four elite wins, Ray Leonard is up there with the very best. Benitez, Duran, Hearns and Hagler, all while they were world champions and all in or at least around their primes.

The problem with the second Sugar Ray, though, is that he has that select group of wins, and very little else in terms of depth outside of them. That's why, for me, it's Benny, rather than Ray, who is the king of the Leonards. Tendler, Britton, Kansas, Welsh, Mitchell, White, Kilbane, Dundee, Moran and Bartfield. Add on top of all that a disputed Newspaper Decision against Ted 'Kid' Lewis (varying accounts of who was the better man) and you've got a record comparable with anyone else in boxing history.

Fists of Fury wrote:Genius, is it me or is the quality of your posts deteriorating quicker than Mayweather's respectability as a human being? I find it rather challenging to take you at all seriously.

I and others went past that point some time ago

With the BMR you can't just look at their records and jump to conclusions about there ability, there's far more to it than that and as Oxy has said already they never had it easy yet still carved out fairly incredible careers. They outgrew the lower weights in the sense that they couldn't get fights there rather than physically outgrew them