Catchweight fights should be non-title affairs!!!

1. Boxing has a rich history of having proper weight limits for divisions.....135/147/154/160 etc...Grabbing alphabet boys and Promoters should be forced to have more respect for the history of the sport..we have weight limits for a reason..

2. Catchweight is cheating in my opinion...basically gaining an advantage at the bargaining table....If you are a welter and fighting for a welter title... Should be allowed to weigh 147....Or else what's the point!!!

3. Sure catchweight makes some interesting fights but had Leonard insisted Hagler scale 156...we probably wouldn't have had the best Marvin available..so it makes these fights less authentic......

Catchweight is there for only one reason to gain an advantage on a naturally bigger foe...

Non title for catchweight please..Win a title the hard way like everyone else and stop filling so-called legacies with cheating victories..

Yup.

well done Balti...another traditionalist....

Couldn't agree more, don't much see the point of catchweight fights any more with there being so many divisions and so little gap between them doesn't seem to much point. However if we must have them under no circumstances should belts be on the line. Belts are cheapened enough nowadays without people winning them against guys not allowed to weigh in at the divisional limit.

Absolutely and agree wholeheartedly....I mean Haye is giving away probably 30 pounds....on Saturday

I'm sure some of these smaller guys could concede ground on two or three pounds and make a fight bonafide and genuine!!!.....

understand what you mean but if the fighters or the Governing body wants them to represent them with their title and put it on the line then I think they've gotta...

WBC/WBA etc....They are interested in the buck!! and nothing else.."They'd sell their own Mothers to make a deal" (General Zod-Wall street..great film!!)

Not interested in upholding tradition or having any dignity.

If two fighters agree a catchweight it's their own business and should be a non title fight even if one of them is reigning champion. You shouldn't have a title on the line at anything other than the divisional limit, it's common sense, and so naturally is not how it works in boxing.

Well yeah but if the guys hold there belts and want to put there belts on the line in a fight.. So be it just another silly thing in boxing.... Thank fully theres not too many Catchweight fights around (At the moment)

They're all crooks. WBC stripped Martinez twice to give titles to Pacquiao and Chavez Jr, then gave Alvarez a free ride. WBA have about three different champs per weight. WBO are in Warren's pocket as often as not. Add catchweights to this mess and the sport looks terrible.

AlexHuckerby wrote:Well yeah but if the guys hold there belts and want to put there belts on the line in a fight.. So be it just another silly thing in boxing.... Thank fully theres not too many Catchweight fights around (At the moment)

What's the point in calling them the whateverweight world championship belt then?!?

BALTIMORA wrote:They're all crooks. WBC stripped Martinez twice to give titles to Pacquiao and Chavez Jr, then gave Alvarez a free ride. WBA have about three different champs per weight. WBO are in Warren's pocket as often as not. Add catchweights to this mess and the sport looks terrible.

Thankfully most people don't understand all this to know it's horsepoo

BALTIMORA wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:Well yeah but if the guys hold there belts and want to put there belts on the line in a fight.. So be it just another silly thing in boxing.... Thank fully theres not too many Catchweight fights around (At the moment)

What's the point in calling them the whateverweight world championship belt then?!?

Because they won the belt fair an square and can do whatever with it as long as the governing body sanctions it... as messed up as it may be

AlexHuckerby wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:Well yeah but if the guys hold there belts and want to put there belts on the line in a fight.. So be it just another silly thing in boxing.... Thank fully theres not too many Catchweight fights around (At the moment)

What's the point in calling them the whateverweight world championship belt then?!?

Because they won the belt fair an square and can do whatever with it as long as the governing body sanctions it... as messed up as it may be

So as long as the governing body doesn't mind, the belt holder can abuse their position by imposing catchweights..? No.

Well yeah if the governing body is ok with the fighters fighting in a catch weight fight and putting there belt that they won on the line realistically there's nothing wrong. What you're all bothered about is tradition. Plus when you get to catchweight type fights they're usually top p4p affairs (Mayweather-Marquez and MP-Marquez) and belts hardly mean anything that high in the sport sadly.

What's the point in calling it a belt if a guy can fight for it at any weight?

There isn't and I completely see your point. But if the belt holder is happy to put it on the line against whoever he's fighting and the governing body are ok with it what more can be done? It's unethical and I disagree that it should happen but at the same time I can see the point of "it adds more zest to the occassion" and the fact that there's titles on board maybe the casual fan who hasn't heard of either boxers much see's there's titles on the line perhaps they will fancy watching it because it's more clear to that person that it's a high quality fight. Just another way of manipulating the ridiculous amount of governing bodies as a way of making a quicker buck.

If one guy wants to fight for or defend a belt at well below the maximum weight limit for that division, that's fine, but the opponent shouldn't be forced into a catchweight.

You've gotta wonder where it ends though, would you have guys fighting for a LMW belt and a LWW belt in a single catchweight fight soon? Madness, but at te same time... as long as the fights are watchable....

I believe that's already happened, for Leonard vs Lalonde. A joke. Why not just have all the belts on the line at once..?

It was the chance for the WBC to have its 1st 168 champ for the Leonard/Lalonde fight.

For me not only should we not be having these catch weight matches, but if fighters went back to the old fashion days of weighing in on the day of the fight might help to even things out. With weigh ins taking place the day day before, come fight time a lot of fights are in fact catch weight events.

We'll see MP taking on David Haye at Catchweight for the Heavyweight title before the year is out :L

mikeymax71 wrote:It was the chance for the WBC to have its 1st 168 champ for the Leonard/Lalonde fight.

For me not only should we not be having these catch weight matches, but if fighters went back to the old fashion days of weighing in on the day of the fight might help to even things out. With weigh ins taking place the day day before, come fight time a lot of fights are in fact catch weight events.

Too true Ortiz came into the fight against Berto as if he was Bruce Banner having a really bad morning.

We still need less weights though. Far too many. Other contacts sports dont have this many

Usually the guy who makes the catchweight is the NAME and can enforce an unfair advantage like Balti referred to because he's the money spinner.....Leonard v Lalonde...

Can't blame Lalonde for wanting a few million..however Lalonde at 175 would have been a tougher challenge and considering the 175 belt was at stake...

Makes it a travesty...

It wasn't even within the LHW parameters was it Truss? Thought the limit for that one was 168. If they're gonna do that then hell, why not have Pacquiao fight Haye for the heavy belt..? Just devalued everything which makes winning in this sport so prestigious.

never a truer comment was written...

Its not that straightforward. Boxers can come to private agreements on catchweights outside of the sanctioning bodies control. As long as the sanctioning bodies dont impose further weight restrictions then I think they are entitled to demand the title be on the line if they so wish. If the boxers privately agree to come in lower then thats not the sanctioning bodies problem.

Why would both guys want a catchweight? The only reason for it is to gain or negate an advantage. If both guys are small for the weight it makes no difference what the weight. If both guys are large for the weight it presents a disadvantage for both. A larger guy has no reason to want a catchweight, especially if he's the one in the driving seat during negotiations.

No not neccessarily. Sometimes (like with Pacquaio) a fighter will impose it simply to get an edge. Cotto/Margarito agreed to it because they wanted the pay off and opportunity.

The only reason for any fighter to want a catchweight is to gain or to negate an advantage. That is exactly what Pacquiao uses them for, and exactly what he did in the fights you mentioned. They didn't benefit his opponents one iota, but merely served to cheapen the wins.

Yeah well if the opponents dont like it they dont have to sign. Its a two agreement at the end of the day. As long as the sanctioning bodies themselves dont make fighters weigh in lighter than the limit then I think they are entitled to force the title to be defended. Especially in this day where champions fight a couple of times a year and there are no end of weight classes to choose from.

The WBO told Cotto to defend his title against Pacquiao. They didnt force him to weight in at 145, that was Cottos choice. His private agrement with Pacquiao should not entitle him to avoid deending his title in my view.

The title shouldn't be on the line if either party has a problem with the official weight limits. You say the contracts are a two-party agreement which is true but all Pacquiao did essentiallly was to buy himself an advantage. Why stop there? Why not pay the opponent to tie one hand behind his back? How about wearing a blindfold for an extra mil..? Sure, the opponent doesn't HAVE to sign, but when a career high payday is on the line sometimes the financial security it offers is too tempting an offer. Alternatively in Margarito's case the fact he was getting any payday at all was something he had to be grateful for. The fact that in these instances the fights are in-house means the very real possibility of the promoter putting pressure on one fighter in order to use them as a sacrificial lamb for the other.

BALTIMORA wrote:The title shouldn't be on the line if either party has a problem with the official weight limits. You say the contracts are a two-party agreement which is true but all Pacquiao did essentiallly was to buy himself an advantage. Why stop there? Why not pay the opponent to tie one hand behind his back? How about wearing a blindfold for an extra mil..? Sure, the opponent doesn't HAVE to sign, but when a career high payday is on the line sometimes the financial security it offers is too tempting an offer. Alternatively in Margarito's case the fact he was getting any payday at all was something he had to be grateful for. The fact that in these instances the fights are in-house means the very real possibility of the promoter putting pressure on one fighter in order to use them as a sacrificial lamb for the other.

Thats nothing to do with the sanctioning body though. Its an entirely different matter to do with promoters/fighters and boxing contracts.

If you turn it around. Pacquaio as WBO champion could demand catchweights all the time meaning his title would never be on the line.

As long as the sanctioning bodies just demand the fighters come in under the original limit then whatever happens outside of that is beyond their control. Im not saying I agree with fighters imposing these sanctions but its really nothing to do with the various sanctioning bodies.

I just think that if a guy wants to be seen as the champ of X weight division, he should fight within the full limits of it. A champion shouldn't be able to impose weight stipulations for the purpose of defending his title, as a challenger shouldn't be able to impose them to win one. It's buying an advantage, and it cheapens the whole sport.

BALTIMORA wrote:I just think that if a guy wants to be seen as the champ of X weight division, he should fight within the full limits of it. A champion shouldn't be able to impose weight stipulations for the purpose of defending his title, as a challenger shouldn't be able to impose them to win one. It's buying an advantage, and it cheapens the whole sport.

Yes but the santioning bodies are in agreement on this. As far as I know they have never imposed weight restrictions on a fighter outside the original limits. Had Cotto weighed in at 147 the WBO would not have penalised in any way. He was fully entitled under their rules to come in at any weight withing the welterweight limit.

I agree with what you are saying but my point is its outside the control of the sanctioning bodies. They arent the ones to blame for that particular problem. The blame lies with the promoters/fighters.

But the sanctioning bodies are happy for Pacquiao or whoever to do as they please, so long as they receive their cut, and that's abysmal. It's not out of their control at all, they could simply refuse to sanction the fight. Christ, in the case of the Margarito fight they're clearly complicit in the shady dealings, making Margarito the ranked contender!

They're very quick to strip titles when they see fit, and equally keen to install undeserving fighters as 'ranked' contenders when it suits a given situation, so this idea that the sanctioning bodies are utterly powerless to act against promoters suggests either that they choose to ignore certain things or are as you say powerless, in which case their very titles become next to worthless.

BALTIMORA wrote:But the sanctioning bodies are happy for Pacquiao or whoever to do as they please, so long as they receive their cut, and that's abysmal. It's not out of their control at all, they could simply refuse to sanction the fight. Christ, in the case of the Margarito fight they're clearly complicit in the shady dealings, making Margarito the ranked contender!

They're very quick to strip titles when they see fit, and equally keen to install undeserving fighters as 'ranked' contenders when it suits a given situation, so this idea that the sanctioning bodies are utterly powerless to act against promoters suggests either that they choose to ignore certain things or are as you say powerless, in which case their very titles become next to worthless.

If that were the case all Pacquiao would have to do would make a private contract in secret stipulating weights and demanding catchweights. The sanctioning simply cannot control it. The sanction the fight for a weight class and allow the fighter to weigh in within its limits. I dont see how you can expect them to control what fighters agree to seperately. Suppose the decided not to sanction the Pacquiao v Cotto fight and PAcquiao walks away to another opponent? Cotto loses out, Pacquiao loses out and the fans lose out. What does it acheive?

The sanctioning bodies have little or no control of the private contracts. The less involved they are, the better. Otherwise you are making the problem worse. Suppose they start deciding on rematch clauses, glove sizes, ring sizes, future earnings, promotional and image rights and all the rest of it and demanding x,y,z to santion a fight.

As it is, all they demand is that the two fighters make the weight class limit. If fighters want to decide on the multitude of issues themselves then thats their own issue. The sanctioning bodies cant be blamed for purse agreements, weight clauses, rematch clauses and so on. The sanctioning bodies are far from angels, but on this particular issue I dont see them as being the ones to blame.

What does it achieve? A little integrity within the sport perhaps? For non-title fights catchweights are fine, but for titles the regulations should be stricter. There's no belt for guys wearing X brand gloves, but there ARE belts for certain weights, and those SHOULD be adhered to.

If Pacquiao had walked away if the fight had not been sanctioned then the sport would have benefited in the long term. He'd have had to fight a legitimate 147lb opponent, his win would be less tainted and his legacy enhanced further. Cotto wouldn't be left wondering if the 2lbs altered the course of his career, the critics wouldn't have an excuse to beat Pacquiao with, and the belt isn't devalued. You give an inch on these things and you have a farce on your hands. Which is what the Margarito fight was.

I dont agree. At the end of the day I dont think the sanctioning bodies can control what fighters agree to privately. Im happy as long as they dont start forcing fighters to make different weights.

People seem to forget that Cotto was at liberty to choose not to agree to a catchweight. Nobody forced him to. He wanted the bigger money on offer and made the sacrifice. It was his decision. Not the WBO. It was him that wanted the WBO to accomodate his own personal agreement with Pacquiao by making it a non title fight. I think the WBO were entitled to insist he defend it.

Exactly how much liberty did Cotto have?

*The lure of a massive payday-his highest to date.

*very little power in the negotiations, being he wasn't the draw.

*The pressure of a promoter with the interests of his opponent more firmly at heart.


If he hadn't grabbed his ankles and taken the shafting, Cotto wouldn't have had a career. He'd have been left in an Arum-induced limbo, with most likely no shot at the 154 title, and what other options? Tied up to a promoter who'd make him pay for disobeying.

The fact the WBO insisted he defend it but weren't interested in insisting he defend it at the regulation 147 limit speaks volumes about who was lining their pockets.

I think it's time we fans ignored the sanctioning bodies altogether, just agree to recognise the champ as the holder of the ring magazine belt and don't even mention the alphabet boys- refer to fights for their trinkets as 12 rounders- ie this weekend Haye challenges for the title, he is not the champ yet , the WBA belt is of no consequence, so why even bother noting he's the holder. The sanctioning bodies are killing the game, and catchweight title fights are just a part of it.

Can't actually believe some people are trying to justify fighting for titles at anything other than the divisional limit

Cotto for the record did not agree to defend his WBO title but it was enforced by the WBO after the contract had been signed as a non title affair
Margarito was not a champion so would agree to any stipulation in order to obtain a big money fighter after having his whole career tainted

What do Canzoneri, De La Hoya, Leonard and Pacquiao all have in common? Big money spinners who could enforce any stipulation they so wish knowing their opponent would not turn down a pay day

Although Williams/Martinez 2 being at a catchweight is something i've yet to understand as neither could have gained much by fighting at 158lbs

I dont think the sanctioning bodies gain anymore credibility if they start pandering to fighters private agreements. Beltholders could just abuse it to avoid defending their titles.

The santioning bodies arent the ones imposing the additional restrictions.

I agree in sentiment, but at the end of the day the weight categories are just random numbers chosen 80-100 years ago.

Can all fighters really fall into 1 category perfectally? Of course they can't, so whilst some fighters will sit comfortably at the weight limit, others will need to do a bit more to get to the weight limit, or face giving up 5-10lbs at the weigh in.

wow_junky wrote:I agree in sentiment, but at the end of the day the weight categories are just random numbers chosen 80-100 years ago.

Can all fighters really fall into 1 category perfectally? Of course they can't, so whilst some fighters will sit comfortably at the weight limit, others will need to do a bit more to get to the weight limit, or face giving up 5-10lbs at the weigh in.

They're arbitrary, but they should still be applied rigidly.

I just want to see two closely matched guys punching each other until one falls over.

I agree catch weight fights should have all titles removed.

djlovesyou wrote:I just want to see two closely matched guys punching each other until one falls over.

This is the most poetic description of boxing I think I've ever heard.

complete agree, if you can't fight at the specified weight in a certain division, then don't fight in that division simple, its not fair on opponent who don't get the freedom to come in up the limit