The Beginning of A New Irish Cycle

First topic message reminder :

The latest 4 year cycle in Irish Rugby is about to end, hopefully at some stage in mid October onwards. Since 2007, the provinces have been incredibly successful winning 3 Magners League titles and 3 H Cup gongs. The National team finally got the big monkey off their backs and won the Six Nations with a Grand Slam.

But this is not about that, just as the old cycle comes to a close, it will be overlapped with the new one when the PRO12 kicks off. In this time, the provinces will be shorn of their Internationals who have been selected to play for their country but it gives a chance for the next generation to start staking a claim for the next 4 years.

While maybe not immediately after the World Cup, quite a large portion of those likely to go to New Zealand will not make it back in 4 years time to England. This is the opportunity for those younger players to get an extended run in the side and maybe experience playing a crucial role in their teams for the first time.

So while most of these games might pass under the radar for most, I think we might look back at these fixtures and see quite a few names of players that will inhabit that squad in 4 years time.

Which players are you looking out for?

I remember reading something he wrote for a magazine once about how to beat a player and he used the analogy that if you see a gap, you have to believe that you are going to go through it. Even if you don't make it through you will make more yards for believing that you can make it.

I think he is right as cheesy as that sounds!

Its all in the mind

We haven't really had options at 2nd row in a while we've just been blessed with POC and DOC
All going well this could be the so called "golden generation" not the one we have now

Possibly we really need Tuohy, Ryan and Nagle to start becoming World Class players in the next 2/3 years though

Irish Curry wrote:Its all in the mind

Maybe not all in the mind...I've went for gaps I believed I was going to get through plenty of times!...

Maybe its just you who cant

[quote="pete (buachaill on eirne)"]Possibly we really need Tuohy, Ryan and Nagle to start becoming World Class players in the next 2/3 years though[/quote]

True, I think they will Ryan will learn from POC and DOC. A serious effort must be put in to devolep them and others by their coachs or else we're in trouble.

I think we should push McLaughlin as a lock a bit too, see how much success can be got out of that venture.

We really could do well with that backline if we could get the ball to them just need to make sure we can do that well

[quote="pete (buachaill on eirne)"]I think we should push McLaughlin as a lock a bit too, see how much success can be got out of that venture.[/quote]

Hopefully leinster will try that for a while and see how it goes

It might sound like a small point but I think vision comes into "natural talent".

MBTGOG wrote:It might sound like a small point but I think vision comes into "natural talent".

It's not a small point. Vision is all about natural talent. You either have it or you dont. Spatial awareness and vision can be developed, but they must be there to develop.

MBTGOG wrote:It might sound like a small point but I think vision comes into "natural talent".

hmm yes and no. The ability to side step and opponent is a talent. Having amazing ball skills or the ability to kick is a talent. Being a great athlete is a talent.

It's possible to have any and all of these attributes without having vision or game reading ability.

Rodders,

Of course you can have all those and not have vision. I genuinely don't understand that point.

MBTGOG wrote:Rodders,

Of course you can have all those and not have vision. I genuinely don't understand that point.

Which point don't you understand? My point was that Earls and Fitzgerald, whilst being talented rugby players don't have the vision or game reading ability to play in the midfield. Their talents lie elsewhere.

BOD's natural physical capabilities are not the best I've ever seen in a centre but because of his mental capabilities he's been able to surpass and outplay possibly more all round talented players.

Rodders,
I havent seen many more all round talented players, as all round and talented as he has been in the last 10 years. His game has no weaknesses.

The only weakness he has now is age and subsequently - speed. He makes up for that with his vision.

Speed, acceleration, agility. Other centres are stronger. Kicking is a weakness. He has many physical weakness's it just his brain moves so fast and he is so creative.

I didn't understand your point in relation to the players.

I agree with that. The problem with Earls is that because of his versatility is that he doesn't get the chance to develop his vision as a midfielder further.

What physical weaknesses does O'Driscoll have?

As an outside centre O'Driscoll's kicking is adequate.

I just scribbled a few down there, speed, acceleration, agility. Other centres are stronger.

I really think that we should start replacing BOD and Darcy after the WC. Dont wait till they fall of the perch. I think Mcfadden will replace Darcy at Leinster and Ireland. And I'd give Earls his chance at 13 alongside him. They both must play those positions for their provinces. Must.

O'Driscoll might lack top end speed at this stage of his career but I really don't think that his acceleration has waned at all. Agility certainly not especially looking at his way he moves his body at the breakdown.

When talking about stronger, are you taking pound for pound into account?

His agility and acceleration have gone down more than his top sepped without a shadow of a doubt.

It's why he doesn't make breaks as often and Foden showed in the final that he could go around BOD with acceleration and change of direction, Smith did the same in NZ last summer too.

I really don't think his acceleration has been lost.

I think the Foden problem was due to him being well below 100%.

Anyway, we're talking about when these players were in their prime and O'Driscoll was close if not in the top echelon in all those things when in his prime.

Yeah in his prime he really was.

I think Darcy will lose the 12 jersey to McF in the coming season. Unless Darcy doesn't go the RWC I can see McF getting it as soon as he comes back.

Either McF doesn't go to NZ and just keeps it or he does but doesn't play many games and thus is ready to come back to Leinster before Darcy is and keeps it even when darcy does come back

One thing that has not been mentioned (and i know all players have to have this attribute) but BOD's balance/centre of gravity is possibly the best thing he has is his armoury. Then and now he has a knack of staying on his feet when gravity should have dragged him down to the ground with a thump.

That's hard to teach to any player and Earls doesnt lack for that ability either and I think he doe have the capacity to become a great in his own right (in any jersey between 11, 13, 14 or 15)

He is further ahead than where BOD was at his age given he is facing MUCH more professional and superior defensive systems and the type of coaching that players have been going through over the past 5 years.

Obviously BOD has adapted and excelled as the game has developed (another characteristic of his greatness) but Earls can do more at a younger age given it is a harder game now than in 2000, imho.

And Spence is another level ahead again, although he has not been exposed to as many top quality teams as Earsl has, given the fact that he has yet to be capped or go deep in the HC as often. But he'll get there with Ulster and Ireland too!

debaters,

That argument is all relative. I don't think that be a legit argument.

I think the idea of Murray-Sexton-Marshall-Spence is just magical! I really want to see that combo

In respect of the game being harder or his balance? I'll assume the former.

Well, i think it is borne out by the players own assessment too; they speak of competitions etc getting harder because the coachable aspects of the game such as defences etc, and video analysis have become more and more prevelant as the game developes at the professional level.

The coach nouse and set up at Connacht is better today than Munster's was at the time of the 2000 HC Final. That is spoken of in great depth in Axel's Autobiog and how they have become much more professional as each season went by.

So i think it is a legitimate arguement that to make waves in the game in 2011 is harder than 2001 as your opposition are at least as talented as then AND better prepared.

What do people think Fionn Carr's chances are at Leinster?

Depending on how you define talent that doesn't change over time.

By that logic, the players that come through in 2021 will be better than they are now. In my opinion players can only be judged by how they do against the players of their own time. No other way of doing it.

I'm not sure Pete. With all the others around it's going to be tough for him. Also what about how he will cope with not being the centrepiece of the attack?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:What do people think Fionn Carr's chances are at Leinster?

Not great. He may be so much better with better players around him, but there are so many talented backs coming through now, he'll really have to up it to get in the 22. Only one way to find out I suppose.

I reckon he should get a fair bitta game time during the RWC and if he really sets the place alighthe may be able to keep Fitzgerald/Kearney or someone out of a position.

I think Conway is going to do that. But it's a healthy situation.

Clearly all our youngsters won't be success. Who do you see not getting the chances necessary due to a backlog of talented players in his path. I worry about Rhys Ruddock personally.

I'm not sure he can do that pete. Conway is the one I'm really looking forward to seeing, I'm sure like everyone else.

MBTGOG wrote:I'm not sure he can do that pete. Conway is the one I'm really looking forward to seeing, I'm sure like everyone else.

+1

I don't think Ruddock will struggle. If it doesn't happen at Leinster, it will happen somewhere.

Id like to see Ruddock directly challenge Heaslip. Jamie has had it all his own way up to now. He has it in him to challenge both SOB and Heaslip. I see Dom Ryan replacing Jennings over the next season or 2.

I think Mclaughlin may be the one to go. Unless he can be transformed into a lock. Bit late in the day.

MBTGOG,

I agree that comparisons between generations are difficult, but i have no problem with the notion that if you are one of the greats of your time, you'd excell in any age of the game.

Married to that I think you can say that a team now is better than a team of 10 years ago, simply because they are more professional.

As corny as it sounds , the 'easy games/teams' now are much more difficult to put away than a decade ago as with no more talent at their disposal, they are much better coached and much better professionals as individual players. a greater understanding in rugby of dynamic power and diet and all that jazz has had its impact. I think these are indisputable facts to be honest.

Tis trend will continue, but obviously not exponentially as you can only take that element so far before everyone is at the same level, more or less.

As an example, i think the 97 All Blacks would give a game to the 2011 AB's and vice versa, great teams of any era can raise their game to the required level.

BUT the Italy of 1997 would be destoyed by the Italy of 2011. Even though the 97 team would have a much better outhalf, the over all skill level and team cohesion of the 2011 (independent of what must be ny now a bigger pool of Italian talent now) The defensive system alobne would stiffle a lot of what the 1997 team could do with the ball, never mind the tactic emplyed by the modern team in attack.

Kingshu wrote:Notch how come you left Paddy Jackson, of that list. Surly in about 2 years time Sexton will be first choice outhalf and Keatley/Jackson will be fighting for the bench spot?

Still got it all to prove in my eyes.

Gibson wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:What do people think Fionn Carr's chances are at Leinster?

Not great. He may be so much better with better players around him, but there are so many talented backs coming through now, he'll really have to up it to get in the 22. Only one way to find out I suppose.

He's on a one year contract as World Cup cover, I can't see him staying on past that. I can see him going back to Connacht assuming he hasn't burned his bridges.

Gibson wrote:I think Mclaughlin may be the one to go. Unless he can be transformed into a lock.

I never thought a great deal about him really. To me he was just a stop gap between Elsom and O'Brien.

I like McLaughlin but it doesn't seem like he has much of a future at Leinster unless he's willing to be a squad player.

To be honest, I'm expecting a small player exodus over to England in the next 2-3 years.

I'd agree Munsty. We have young Irish qualified guys in most positions for the provinces. The ones not getting international game time will probably get itchy feet

Gibson wrote:Rodders,
I havent seen many more all round talented players, as all round and talented as he has been in the last 10 years. His game has no weaknesses.

The only weakness he has now is age and subsequently - speed. He makes up for that with his vision.

He can't kick the ball to save his life.

roddersm wrote:ValJester it has nothing to do with experience, it's about having the game awareness to make descisions and the ability to work in tight spaces.

Kevin Maggs was no better than Mafi or anyone Earls has had inside him and BOD was the senior partner between him and Maggs from the moment he set foot on the pitch. If Earls needs someone to guide him in the centre then he should not be playing there.

Experience didn't teach BOD to see gaps and read the game and kevin Maggs certainly didn't..

Sorry for the delay in replying I was out for a while.

That is complete rubbish, of course experience thought him how to read the game. The more you practice the better you get. Its a lot harder to break through gaps nowadays than it was when bod broke on to the scene. Earls has as much chance as any of the other prospects in Ireland at taking over from bod when he goes but he will always be hammered for not being bod. Earls has not had any consistency in terms of who is centre partner has been at munster. He is a different kind of person than bod. 13 is not always the defensive captain and it is unlikely that a player such as Earls, who has noted problems with self confidence, will ever be made the defensive captain. But despite being unfit and the chopping of partners he still was solid defensive in the centre during the hec for munster. His vision and his passing are much improved and he has an eye for a gap, but as has been said before with better defences its harder to get through.

For the people putting forward spence, you have to remember that he is likely to be on the wing next season for ulster. He is a very good player with huge potential but he has to work on his passing and Cave is a much better defender than him. If cave is fit next season he will start as first choice 13 and it will be up to spence to get past him which will be hard as cave is a brillliant defender in his own right but more importantly is a very good organiser.

Notch wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Notch how come you left Paddy Jackson, of that list. Surly in about 2 years time Sexton will be first choice outhalf and Keatley/Jackson will be fighting for the bench spot?

Still got it all to prove in my eyes.

He will be Irish 10 in the next world cup providing he doesn't get injured.

Gibson wrote:Rodders,
I havent seen many more all round talented players, as all round and talented as he has been in the last 10 years. His game has no weaknesses.

Neither have I but I have seen a few. Physically he is not naturally that big and powerful, although deceptively strong. He's overcome this with his incredible commitment and ferocity in contact and has bulked up noticely since the early days when he wasn't so physical. When he first arrived in the scene his distribution was not that great nor was his kicking game both of which have improved remarkably as has his defence. His acceleration and eye for the gap were there from the start but he has consitantly evolved his game to the point were, like you say, he has virtually no weaknesses but this was not always the case.

Contrast say Henson, who literally has no playing weakness, but has achieved relatively little as an individual player, or even D'arcy who hasn't delievered consistantly over the course of his career the way O'Driscoll has despite overshadowing at times when on top form (2004, 2006).

Christian Cullen certainly had comparable or even more natural ability but was able to sustain the longevity or redefine his game the way O'Driscoll has once injury and time had eroded his natural assets of pace and acceleration. There are numerous more examples of players with more natural assets and talents than O'Driscoll who haven't reached or sustained the same heights.

O'Driscoll has fantastic natural ability no doubt about it but it his mental strength and desire to win and improve which has elevated him to be the great and complete player he has been and still is.

Sorry I know this hasn't been touched in a while but am interested in peoples opinions on this.......

if you had to guess, who would you say will be the 30 at the RWC 2015. Forget injuries and all that just speculate...

I am gonna go out on a limb and guess...

1) Healy/McCallister
2) Strauss/Cronin/Sherry
3) Hagan/Ross
4) Tuohy/Nagle
5) Ryan/POC
6) SOB/Ruddock
7) Ryan
8) Heaslip/Leamy
9) Murray/Williams/TOL
10) Sexton/Keatley/AN Other
11) Earls
12) Marshall/McFadden
13) Spence
14) Bowe/Trimble
15) Jones/Kearney

Others in and around the squad:
Carr, O'Malley, Conway, Zebo, Barnes, Reddan, Falloon, Toner, Archer, Andress, Best, DOC, BOD

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Sorry I know this hasn't been touched in a while but am interested in peoples opinions on this.......

if you had to guess, who would you say will be the 30 at the RWC 2015. Forget injuries and all that just speculate...

I am gonna go out on a limb and guess...

1) Healy/McCallister
2) Strauss/Cronin/Sherry
3) Hagan/Ross
4) Tuohy/Nagle
5) Ryan/POC
6) SOB/Ruddock
7) Ryan
8) Heaslip/Leamy
9) Murray/Williams/TOL
10) Sexton/Keatley/AN Other
11) Earls
12) Marshall/McFadden
13) Spence
14) Bowe/Trimble
15) Jones/Kearney

Others in and around the squad:
Carr, O'Malley, Conway, Zebo, Barnes, Reddan, Falloon, Toner, Archer, Andress, Best, DOC, BOD

Gilroy and Peter O'Mahony will be in the mix, don't think bod and doc will still be around.

The Beginning of A New Irish Cycle

Coo, this is like tomorrow's world!