Bret Hart or Shawn Michaels

Growing up in the 90's these guys were 2 of my favourites of all time. Two great rivals who were so different in personality that there real life hatred made the feud so compelling:

So a few questions regarding the two (no mention of Montreal i promise)...

Who did you prefer in the ring?.... Michaels is naturally the better of the two in terms of high flying ability but Bret Hart was technically flawless in mat wrestling. No one could quite sell a beating like Michaels but I'd say Hart was more creative in the ring.....

Was the iron man match at Wrestlemania 12 a classic? Pat Paterson waxes lyrically about how its the greatest Wrestlemania moment (probably because it was his idea) whereas Bret has said himself it was just two guys trying to out do each other

Would you consider, either, none or both to be a top 5 wrestler in the last 25 years?

Had to join up just to comment on this article.

HBK is my all time number 1 I don't think anyone could really match him in terms of charisma and sheer in ring ability, I would disagree that Hart was more creative in the ring, I would say however that Hart is easily the second best in ring performer I have ever seen.

Shawn tipped it for me when he returned for the street fight against HHH, after being out for so long with a broken back to come back and put in the performance he did was unreal and not only just that night he kept it up right to his retirement match, he was just timeless.

He generated real love as a face and genuine hatred when a heel, he could play either part and was a great talker.

I would say the ironman match was a classic and yes both are my number 1 & 2 respectively

Welcome to the board big fella....

My thinking behind Bret being more creative is I loved how he beat Piper at Mania 8, by kicking his foot up against the turnbuckle whilst locked in a sleeper, I think he did a similar finish against Austin at Survivor Series 96.... He won a great match with Bam Bam at King of The Ring 93 with a victory roll.

Was it a classic? I voted no. At the time it was fresh, nothing like that had been done before. But looking back at it now comparing it to what we have seen since, i think they got it all wrong by allowing it to go 60mins without a single fall. 0-0 was a bad idea. It would have been much better if they both picked up a couple of falls each ending at 2-2, then going into overtime, it would have avoided it being a snoozefest.

I'd imagine both would without doubt feature in 90% of everyone Greatest of All Time lists.

For me Shawn is in a different league to the Hitman. Lets face it, Bret's career ended in 1997 in Montreal, Shawn's career ended in 2010. What Shawn achieved between 1997 and 2010 alone pished all over everything Bret achieved, not to mention everything he achieved prior to 97.

Not disrespecting Bret at all, if it wasnt for the screwjob and going to WCW, perhaps he would have written more chapters in his illustrious career, but in terms of longetivity, variation in fueds, character and storylines, in ring ability, charisma and likeability, Shawn Michaels is THEE best ever.

I voted no aswell. Purely because for me, it wasn't a classic. When Shawn hit SCM and pinned Bret, that was a classic MOMENT, most definitely, but the match itself wasn't a classic match as a whole, in my opinion.

I'm undecided on whether it could be deemed a classic. I remember thinking this is boring when I watched it, but have since looked at it again & appreciated the skill & stamina needed by both men. It just seems wierd that probably the greatest rivalry in my time of watching & technically the 2 best in the ring didn't have a classic pay-per-view match.... Good point Mr H 2-2 would of been a better story

I say in his pomp though Hart was a better face. I think Michaels didn't draw as the face of the company because he wasn't very well liked

At the time it was probably portrayed as a classic, but upon reflection 10 yrs later i think alot of people would deem it a snoozefest. It could of, and should of, had alot more.

Michaels/Razor had a classic ladder match, and there have been multiple ladder matches since which have also been classics, but we still look back now and deem the Michaels/Razor match as a classic.

Unfortunately the same cant be said about the Iron Man Match. Rock/HHH, Brock/Angle, Cena/Orton. I'd say all of them were better than HBK/Bret.

I voted yes because these were two guys who had geniune chemistry in the ring, whether you knew about their backstage fued or not. They also knew how to tell a story and work in the ring. I will admit it's the only Iron Man match I've seen, so I have nothing to compare it to.

Nowhere near a classic for me. It should have been, but their personality clash stopped that happening.

Crips, a one line answer? Are you feeling ok?

He only writes up essay's when he can make Gaffer look like a fool.

Mr H wrote:

Michaels/Razor had a classic ladder match, and there have been multiple ladder matches since which have also been classics, but we still look back now and deem the Michaels/Razor match as a classic.

I don't. As far as ladder matches go, Michaels/Razor has aged quite badly. The ladder spots especially look pretty weak. It was the '1st ever' ladder match, but I think that elevates it in people's opinion higher than it maybe should. If it wasn't the original, it may not be remembered so fondly.

Moving on, as far as the Iron-Man match goes, I think it is a classic yes. From excellent build, great entrance from Shawn, some interesting storytelling in the match with Shawn forgoing his high-risk manouvers in pursuit of his boyhood dream which kayfabe caught Bret off-gaurd, to Bret meticulously wearing down Shawn's back in preparation for the sharpshooter. There are couple of issues I have with it, namely the restart but it doesn't take away from it enough for me. I can also see why some wouldn't enjoy it though, especially if they were to watch it now, as there are substansial parts of matches which moved slow either on holds or with both men knacknered. But for me, it gets the yes.

Mr H wrote:Crips, a one line answer? Are you feeling ok?

Lol!! I'm quite deflated at the lack of detail you've shown there Crips

liverbnz wrote:

Mr H wrote:

Michaels/Razor had a classic ladder match, and there have been multiple ladder matches since which have also been classics, but we still look back now and deem the Michaels/Razor match as a classic.

I don't. As far as ladder matches go, Michaels/Razor has aged quite badly. The ladder spots especially look pretty weak. It was the '1st ever' ladder match, but I think that elevates it in people's opinion higher than it maybe should. If it wasn't the original, it may not be remembered so fondly.

Moving on, as far as the Iron-Man match goes, I think it is a classic yes. From excellent build, great entrance from Shawn, some interesting storytelling in the match with Shawn forgoing his high-risk manouvers in pursuit of his boyhood dream which kayfabe caught Bret off-gaurd, to Bret meticulously wearing down Shawn's back in preparation for the sharpshooter. There are couple of issues I have with it, namely the restart but it doesn't take away from it enough for me. I can also see why some wouldn't enjoy it though, especially if they were to watch it now, as there are substansial parts of matches which moved slow either on holds or with both men knacknered. But for me, it gets the yes.

I understand what you are saying, you can have an entertaining football match that finishes 0-0, but ultimately at Wrestlemania the biggest PPV of the year it should have been more entertaining. If the Champions League Final finishes 0-0, most people are disappointed right? Same with Bret/Shawn. I'll stand by what i say about it should have been a score draw before going into overtime. Sorry but an hours worth of wrestling with no falls is going to be boring, it doesnt matter who is involved.

Also disagree about Shawn/Razor. There were some excellent spots in that match. Im certain the majority of people on this board would have that in their top 10 wrestlemania matches of all time.

I've no problem with that Mr.H. It's all opinions at the end of the day.

Exactly mate. Would be a very boring place if we all agreed!

I agree.

I agree.

Edit: Dam you KB.

I disagree, i dont think you genuinely agree.

I disagree that you disagree. You're just trying to seek some attention.

liverbnz wrote:I disagree that you disagree. You're just trying to seek some attention.

I agree. He's always been an attention seeker. It's like Gaffer MK II.

Are you going to manage to comment on a thread today without mentioning Gaffer?

Enforcer wrote:Are you going to manage to comment on a thread today without mentioning Gaffer?

I can give you three off the top of my head...

Trash Talk
The greatest covers ever.
The Music Cup round 1.

Next question?

Clarke James wrote:

liverbnz wrote:I disagree that you disagree. You're just trying to seek some attention.

I agree. He's always been an attention seeker. It's like Gaffer MK II.

Excuse me while i just go and hang myself....

All those are off the Wrestling board though. Interesting.

Enforcer wrote:All those are off the Wrestling board though. Interesting.

Really?

Maybe you should go check the RAW discussion thread and the TNA to WWE thread as well.....

Speaking of the gaffer, was he on 606?

liverbnz wrote:Speaking of the gaffer, was he on 606?

Yeah, he was WF.

Clarke James wrote:

liverbnz wrote:Speaking of the gaffer, was he on 606?

Yeah, he was WF.

Oh righty. I thought that might have been the case, although I didn't think WF/kayfabe posted as much on there as his new incarnation posted on here. Anyway, mystery solved cheers.

BTW, you are frighteningly quick at replying KB. Some might say freaky!

liverbnz wrote:

Clarke James wrote:

liverbnz wrote:Speaking of the gaffer, was he on 606?

Yeah, he was WF.

Oh righty. I thought that might have been the case, although I didn't think WF/kayfabe posted as much on there as his new incarnation posted on here. Anyway, mystery solved cheers.

BTW, you are frighteningly quick at replying KB. Some might say freaky!

I hate my job.

Anyone remember the Bret Shawn ladder match that was available on Collisium Home Video? Think it was for the IC title? This was before Razor v Shawn & infinately better

Brady12 wrote:Anyone remember the Bret Shawn ladder match that was available on Collisium Home Video? Think it was for the IC title? This was before Razor v Shawn & infinately better

Only seen it once, and it was a while ago now. One of many of Bret's gripes with Shawn over the years was that he stole the idea of a ladder match from him, or something like that.

liverbnz wrote:

Brady12 wrote:Anyone remember the Bret Shawn ladder match that was available on Collisium Home Video? Think it was for the IC title? This was before Razor v Shawn & infinately better

Only seen it once, and it was a while ago now. One of many of Bret's gripes with Shawn over the years was that he stole the idea of a ladder match from him, or something like that.

I believe it was a gimmick that was used in Stampede wrestling before Bret pitched it to Vince in WWF

Bret Hart by a mile for me.

Far more charismatic, more realistic in the ring and involved in better feuds. The only edge I'd give Michaels would be in longevity.

I believe as a face the Hitman character was far more likeable and easier to engage with, never really accepted HBK as a face. HBK was always better suited as the pompous, self important heel. Bret could play both (at the same time in his career in 97, heel in America, face everywhere else) and was comfortable with either.

In-ring, again Hart for me. Always seemed to be more logic and better psychology to his matches. Plus the added realism, look at how Bret would sell being thrown into the turnbuckles in comparison to HBK flying over them. I think people sometimes cite HBK's athleticism as an example of superior in-ring work but I think the overselling and lucha-libre style flatters to deceive in this argument.

Just realised I ignored the questions.

WM12 a classic? Hmmm not really, I'd say I appreciated it more than I enjoyed it. As a vehicle to get over the 'boyhood dream realised' angle I'd say it was necessary, shame the story and Michael's first title reign turned out to be such a damp squib.

Top 5 of last 25 years? Bret Hart; absolutely, Shawn Michaels; behind Hart, Savage, Angle, Hogan (no order), so maybe just

Clarke James wrote:He only writes up essay's when he can make Gaffer look like a fool.

As long as its no a knobjockey like you i'll be fine

the-gaffer wrote:

Clarke James wrote:He only writes up essay's when he can make Gaffer look like a fool.

As long as its no a knobjockey like you i'll be fine

Simply put p4p best hart is no.1

He could make anyone look like a million bucks.

I think Shawn is the greatest of all time, however I think between 92-97 Bret was better than Shawn, didn't like their match at WrestleMania, for me it doesn't stand the test of time, I'd strongly disagree they never had a good match though, the ladder match in 92 and both Survivor Series 92 & 97 matches where quite good

I really liked the ss92 match. However I think as fans we never got the pay off we deserved with these two. Screwjob aside, the promo leading up to ss97 was a classic 'the two top guys who genuinely dislike each other in a one-off match, 18 months in the making'.
Even if the match had d ended in a double dq as agreed, how much of a let down would that have been?!

I thought the match in Montreal was good, think it just got over-looked with what went on after it

the-gaffer wrote:I think Shawn is the greatest of all time, however I think between 92-97 Bret was better than Shawn, didn't like their match at WrestleMania, for me it doesn't stand the test of time, I'd strongly disagree they never had a good match though, the ladder match in 92 and both Survivor Series 92 & 97 matches where quite good

All I said Gaffer was they'd never had that real stand out pay per view match.... Ladder match was a house show. Survivor Series 92, quite a good match technically but it felt like it was thrown together at the last minute. Montreal was Montreal remember for the wring reasons.

Michaels best ever Bret best from 92-97...Shawn comeback matches were incredible. I think that's a fair comment. Wonder where Michaels would rank had he retired in 97?

Shawn was always a favourite of mine but if he retired for good after WM14 I doubt he'd make the top 10 of all time

I agree Shawn would not be ranked number 1 had he not returned but he would still make top 5.

Shame really as we missed quite a lot of him in his prime but I think that speaks volumes that he is widely regarded now a days as the best wrestler ever to step in the ring without us actually seeing the best he could deliver.

He has always been my favourite wrestler and I would like to seem him take JoMo under his wing as I believe there is something untapped with him that maybe HBK could bring out by making him similar (not completely the same) to how he was, in ring he is flawless but he needs new music and a new attitude, maybe the cocky HBK style would work for him?