NZ v Oz - the positives for Ireland

Most of us seem to accept that if Ireland is to do well in WC, then we have to beat Oz in the group game and so avoid NZ in the quarter-finals, so what did we learn from this morning's game between NZ and Oz.

(i) maybe Cooper isn't as bad as he looked today (apart from the pass for Elsom's try which was class) but one thing is clear the guy doesn't like the rough and tumble and falls to pieces when he's put under pressure. Maybe he looked good in the S15 but test rugby and especially world cup test rugby is a while different ball game. The prospect of Heaslip and O'Brien running hard at him is not a pretty prospect for Oz - Cooper spent most of today's game actively looking to avoid contact and that left massive gaps for the AB's to run into. Contrast that with Sexton who is a good defender.
(ii) Oz starved of possession become a blunt instrument - apart from the super try by Ioane (Muliaina missing another tackle!) and a couple of breaks by Genia and O'Connor, the Oz back line was non-existent as an attacking force - Beale, Ashley-Cooper barely featured
(iii) the Irish back row - and hopefully it will start as SOB-Wally-Heaslip - is a far better unit. As a Leinster fan it pains to say it but Rocky Elsom, who so dominated European club rugby in 2009, is a shadow of what he was back then. Gone are the line breaks, the surging runs. McCalman is average at best - Pocock is undoubtedly a great groundhog but Oz are going to need more than a good 7 in their back row
(iv) Ireland between Sexton and ROG have two pretty reliable goal kickers - 80%+. Cooper knocked over two good conversions today but would you really want to depend on him to take a goal kick in a real pressure situation. Likewise O'Connor, great player but he's only a part-time goal kicker and it showed.
(v) Probably not a whole lot in it, but Ireland's tight 5 is better than Oz.
(vi) Today's game is going to hit the Oz team's self-confidence quite hard.

We've yet to see Ireland (forget today's game v the Scots as a meaningful exercise). But after the next three games against France and England, we'll be in a better position to judge the merits of the two teams. But after today I'm tempted to visit my friendly bookie and have a modest wager on us to turn Oz over - or am I wearing green-tinted specs

AUS was playing the All Blacks who have a pack and back line far better than Irelands. Whether Ireland can do the same to AUS as NZ is doubtful. AUS still managed some good tries and scoring chances.

Agree that Cooper can be hot and cold but his form this year has been top notch in the Super 15 even when against hard hitting SA teams. Think he deserves more credit and think there is more to him than for example Carlos Spencer. However cutting off the supply of ball to him and limiting the time he has on the ball is easier said than done.

AUS has never had a world beating tight five but it hasn't seemed to hinder them too much considering the success they've had. It's not like Irelands tight five too much to handle. I'd put NZ, SA, Eng, Wales and France ahead of them.

Where Ireland does obviously look really good is in the loose forwards but I wouldn't be surprised if Rocky finds form which would balance things out.

On their day (as the welsh always say) I can see Ireland putting one over AUS in a NZ held WC but 8 out of ten times I say AUS would win. Ireland is my NH team, like their players and style of play so hope they perform especially as Irish legends of the game are likely to bid farewell.

MMaaxx wrote:
Agree that Cooper can be hot and cold but his form this year has been top notch in the Super 15 even when against hard hitting SA teams...... However cutting off the supply of ball to him and limiting the time he has on the ball is easier said than done.

Was done last night Maxx but on no account was it easy and they've honed their attacking lines so much this year that it will take a very very good defensive structure to do so and Ireland would be hard pressed to do it here. They are also progressing in other areas, the scrum being up to the task last night. A lot of work has gone into that.

And perhaps after the Scotland result I wouldnt be rushing to the Bookies too soon.

I think there is a fair bit of hopeful thinking behind this post. Cooper has 25 tests under his belt and while last night was not up to par I it is misguided as to whether to draw conclusions.

Issue is whether Ireland would have done better than OZ last night . Would the 3 tries to 2 been better or worse. I personally think Ireland would have struggled to get through ABs defenses to register even 1 try. How many tries did Ireland score last night?

Yeah Irelands chances are more down to a one off performance in which quite a few things need to go right (or wrong in the case of Oz).

Its hard to compare at this stage and given Irelands history re NZ obviously we see Oz as by far the stronger foe. But NH wins over SH teams do occur, regularly, particularly at World cups. Mind you, it is usually Eng or France but it could happen in pool play.

I didnt see last nights match but it didnt sound like much of a spectacle.

We'll just have to see...

I think Ireland have even more work to do than the Wallabies - it was a lacklustre showing against an average Scotland side. I know it was the first hitout since 6N but players from both sides looked incredibly rusty compared to the England - Wales game.

Yes, Australia were shut down effectively and couldn't stem the AB tide but they were by no means completely disgraced. The ABs were primed; the Wallabies ambushed. However there were some encouraging signs evident at times and they will definitely be in the mix in the RWC. I agree that the kicking was terrible from O'Connor. McCalman has already been released from the squad for next week in SA (I don't see him coming back) and we will have more grunt in the back row with Samo and Ma'fu likely to be given a run in the front row as well. Higginbotham also made a huge impact when he came on, regardless whether the ABs had lost a little intensity or tired a fraction.

You need to be careful about making comparisons with a Wallaby side up against a white hot AB side who clearly are on a different level to any side. If that Irish lineup had played at EP yesterday - it would have been very ugly indeed... a loss by 50 points at least, maybe up to 70!

I understand it was an experimental side but there was nothing to be intimidated by Ireland's performance from an Australian perspective. Like you say Brennomac, let's see how they fare against France & England with the first choice players back.

Linebreaker wrote:the Wallabies ambushed

Gosh dont say that Linebreaker they'll be renaming Deans General Custer soon, but how someone can survive 2 ambushes in 3 games they may as well rename him Houdini...

Not really so much an ambush as everyone knew Cooper and Genia being shut down was the key, other things being equal. Cooper throwing that ridiculous pass into the goal area symbolising his day.

But the AB's really were on the ball, all returning players starring on the night. How valuable is Mealamu around the breakdown area. That try was just pure body position and strength pushing the defence over the line.

The only player I could see not to do a lot was Mils. Can't blame him for the tackle but he'll need to get involved more with Dagg and Toeava in the wings.
Anyway, bit odd subject..and speaking of...is it true Moody's injured out of the cup? Heard it on news here but dont see it on these boards...

Scotland vs Ireland - The positives for Australia

Ireland only try against south africa and england

I still dont see any positives for Ireland, Australia is miles better than Australia and will remains so until Ireland start making improvements in their game, instead of looking for reasons to criticise other countries who truely work on their rugby............

aucklandlaurie wrote: I still dont see any positives for Ireland, Australia is miles better than Australia and will remains so until Ireland start making improvements in their game, instead of looking for reasons to criticise other countries who truely work on their rugby............

Is that a serious comment?

I thought Australia actually played quite well yesterday but they just came up against a better side.

From an Irish perspective, I'd be a little more worried after yesterday as that was a decent performance from Australia and I think they got closer than any other side in the world would have yesterday.

If I was Australian, I wouldn't even bother looking at the Irish game yesterday because of the team they put out.

It was a tough choice Munsty.

The feed for the other game was poor and we were getting tonked by Sri Lanka in the 1st T20 on another channel.

MBTGOG
My error . it should read " Australia is miles better than Ireland"

laurie,

I'm serious though. Do you really think the Irish rugby team go around criticising every other team?

Mbtgog
When one reads what thye Irish say about New Zealanders and the All blacks on this rugby site I can on assume that it is reflsctive if the attitude of all Irish.........

...and that is a huge call to make laurie. It is far from the truth too.

aucklandlaurie wrote: Mbtgog
When one reads what thye Irish say about New Zealanders and the All blacks on this rugby site I can on assume that it is reflsctive if the attitude of all Irish.........

What do we say?

Linebreaker MBTGOG
so why is it that the Irish can say anything they like criticising The All Blkacks as cheats but if a New Zealander says anything in any way critical of the Irish we get jumped on ????????????

But not all Irish are saying that laurie.

Woooa whats going on here?

Laurie,it's mainly other people who claim they're cheats. I actually defended McCaw yesterday. It's his job to be disruptive and basically play to the limit of the law. Ireland and Munster had Alan Quinlan for years and we loved him for it. If we had McCaw we wouldn't be complaining nor would any other nation. Take our bitching as a compliment.

Thomond
Ive had so many of those bitching compliments in the last half hour that I'm over the moon...

There's something ironic about the timing of this article but I can't quite put my finger on it......

If playing the game the way it's meant to be played is cheating, then NZ are guilty as charged. McCaw is a genious and it's a compliment to how good he is at his job that he annoys the oposition fans so much.

I think there are positives from an Ireland perspective based on the Australian performance yesterday but I suspect that somewhere down under there'll be a few Australian fans saying the same about Ireland.

laurie!

I have no idea where your getting that from. Any of that.

there were two games of rugby in the last 28 odd hours.
NZ v Aust and scotland V Ireland.
One game I attended and watched a replay today, the other i have only seen a delayed replay .
I say that i could see no positives for Ireland for the folowing reasons.
1. The nz /australia game was played at a far higher pace.
2. The Aus NZ game was played with far more intensity.
3. If Ireland had been playing the All Blacks last night then i fail to see how Ireland would have kept NZ under 60 points...

C'mon boys and girls,
Handbags away! The RWC hasn't even started yet. We can beat each other to a pulp next month.

To be fair to Ireland and the rest of the Rugby world, every nation/country/region/town/village etc. almost equally have people who have accused the ABs of cheating/infringing/menacing/mucking with their neighbors daughter. All just a bunch of fertilizer. They are refereed by everyone and they play the same game. Either it is a global conspiracy by all referees or they play the referees really well. Just go out, front up, and win the blyydy match.

Remember if it ain't called, its rules. Right?

Laurie,I would expect a mixture of our 2nd and 3rd choice team to get beaten by the All Blacks by around 60 points,a lot of countries' 2nd team would lose well to the ABs.

Doc Grey
But sometimes on here its like prison rules...........

3N matches are always played with a higher intensity than either AIs- generally where Ireland have had some degree of success against aus- and certainly higher than these friendlies.
If people could not tell that from watching the two matches then theres not much more to say.

aucklandlaurie wrote: there were two games of rugby in the last 28 odd hours.
NZ v Aust and scotland V Ireland.
One game I attended and watched a replay today, the other i have only seen a delayed replay .
I say that i could see no positives for Ireland for the folowing reasons.
1. The nz /australia game was played at a far higher pace.
2. The Aus NZ game was played with far more intensity.
3. If Ireland had been playing the All Blacks last night then i fail to see how Ireland would have kept NZ under 60 points...

I'm not too worried about Ireland. First game of pre-season with an entirely second string side. Its like saying the way the Boks have played so far will impact on their World Cup. We have three more games plus one against the USA before we meet Australia. I was quite pleased with some aspects of our performance yesterday.

Si Signor. Peoples is peoples.

But still not too bad here regardless?

aucklandlaurie wrote: there were two games of rugby in the last 28 odd hours.
NZ v Aust and scotland V Ireland.
One game I attended and watched a replay today, the other i have only seen a delayed replay .
I say that i could see no positives for Ireland for the folowing reasons.
1. The nz /australia game was played at a far higher pace.
2. The Aus NZ game was played with far more intensity.
3. If Ireland had been playing the All Blacks last night then i fail to see how Ireland would have kept NZ under 60 points...

and England - Wales of course.

Did anyone see the Argentina v Rest of The Americas match?

It was on here this morning but I had to go out during the 1st half. I think the Pumas were up about 20 points, there were some quick tries in the first 10 mins.

doctor_grey wrote:C'mon boys and girls,
Handbags away! The RWC hasn't even started yet. We can beat each other to a pulp next month.

To be fair to Ireland and the rest of the Rugby world, every nation/country/region/town/village etc. almost equally have people who have accused the ABs of cheating/infringing/menacing/mucking with their neighbors daughter. All just a bunch of fertilizer. They are refereed by everyone and they play the same game. Either it is a global conspiracy by all referees or they play the referees really well. Just go out, front up, and win the blyydy match.

Remember if it ain't called, its rules. Right?

Not a conspiracy - but maybe ask Paddy O'Brien -
Sir Richie's no.1 fan
Commenting that Richie McCaw's a freak pretty sums up his views about whether Richie is a cheat or just a once in a lifetime invisible genius. His underlings follow his lead - its called agreeing with the boss

RobB
I didnt realise that Paddy had such loyal staff, I thought that Barnes chap was inclined to run off the rails evry now and then and Mr Dickinson musnt have got the "Dont sin bin McCaw "memo......

aucklandlaurie wrote: Mbtgog
When one reads what thye Irish say about New Zealanders and the All blacks on this rugby site I can on assume that it is reflsctive if the attitude of all Irish.........

I think generally speaking Irish and many other NH fans positively gush about the ABs -

That's cutting it pretty close to the line there Rob. Other's have said something similar and I think its a terrible thing to say about Paddy and all those refs from around the world.

aucklandlaurie wrote: RobB
I didnt realise that Paddy had such loyal staff, I thought that Barnes chap was inclined to run off the rails evry now and then and Mr Dickinson musnt have got the "Dont sin bin McCaw "memo......

They've all seen what happened to Alan Lewis's reffing career. No need for memos

No, doctor grey, its not 'rules'. Richie McCaw took my sister out for lunch, nice restaurant, they shared an ice cream sundae- never called her again. J'accuse!

aucklandlaurie wrote: RobB
I didnt realise that Paddy had such loyal staff, I thought that Barnes chap was inclined to run off the rails evry now and then and Mr Dickinson musnt have got the "Dont sin bin McCaw "memo......

And Dickinson didn't get to referee at the RWC either...

I just think that referees while meant to be objective, are only human as well and are not immune to politics. Stu not really up to it - but he is one guy who does not put up with the "genius" of Richie McCaw and the BTW he's not at the world cup either.

Remember in cricket Muralitharan's action came under "scrutiny" some years ago with his bent arm action. There was a lot of politics with this as he was on his way to taking the highest number of wickets in the history of test cricket (which he achieved). After a lot of angst the ICC said there was nothing wrong with his action (total BS). Daryl Hair, an Australian umpire, who was regarded among the very best of umpires called him for chucking in a test - several times. Everyone agreed with him. What happened to him? He was fired. He took on the establishment, called a spade a spade and lost his job. Then they changed the rules to allow a bent arm action if the bend was not more than 15 degrees. Not one umpire other than Hair had the gonads to call it. They read between the lines. They wanted to keep their jobs.

Rob B. Aren't the referees appointed by a panel. Isn't Steve Hilditch from Australia, the current head of selectors. I doubt if there was the bias you are describing the selections would be as they are. You'd think Paddy would have selected more than 1 kiwi ref, 1 australian, less than 6 northern refs, and found ways to leave out one or more of Barnes, Pearson, Poite and Rolland.