England Squad - Anyone played themselves out of contention?

First topic message reminder :

Following England's dominance of territory and possession, but total inability to generate quick ball or do anything incisive in attack against Wales, I was wondering what this might mean to the final 30 man squad Johnson will take, especially given that the final cut happens before the match in Dublin.

Of course there are still question marks over the likely fitness of Moody, and Youngs and Sheridan haven't played since yet surgery, so both can only be considered as provisional picks for the squad (although if fit enough, all will undoubtedly travel and probably be first choice selections at the start of the tournament).

I think before Saturday the probable squad looked something like:
Sheridan, Corbisiero
Hartley, Thompson, Mears
Cole, Stevens
Lawes, Deacon, Palmer (Shaw*)
Croft, Wood
Moody, Fourie*
Easter, Haskell

Youngs, Care, Wigglesworth
Flood, Wilkinson
Hape, Flutey
Tindall, Tuillagi
Ashton, Cueto, Banahan
Foden, Armitage.

* I think Fourie or Shaw get picked depending whether we go with 3 or 4 second row specialists, but because of Moody's knee think it likely we take the extra flanker.

However, after the debacle at the MS, who has played themselves into danger?

For me, Armitage should now be ahead of Banahan as the sub back 3 or 4 player, and with the emergence of Tuillagi at OC, could Banahan's place be at risk from a faster winger (Monye or Sharples?)

Could we possibly not include Hape in the squad, taking (maybe) Hodgson and relying on Flood/Wilkinson as cover for 12?

Did Fourie play himself out of the squad, and if so would it be Shaw or Robshaw coming in?

Similarly, did Corbisiero's mediocre game open up the possibility of a change in emphasis with Stevens becoming the (primarily) LH backup and opening up the possibility of Doran-Jones making the squad as TH cover?

Totally right...the team for Ireland will not be a one for trialling players.

It will be full strength (in a manner of speaking).....

And i fully expect to see (And i dont want to see this side)

1 Corbisieru
2 Hartley
3 Cole
4 Palmer
5 Lawes
6 Croft
7 Moody
8 Easter

9 Care
10 Flood
11 Ashton
12 Hape
13 Tindall
14 Cueto
15 Foden

I expect a defeat to Ireland....

You thinking this is the line-up which starts the RWC?

I'd expect the world cup team (Johnson's not mine) to be similar to GeordieFalcons:

1 Corbisiero
2 Hartley
3 Cole
4 Palmer
5 Lawes
6 Croft
7 Moody
8 Easter

9 Care
10 Wilkinson
11 Ashton
12 Hape/Flutey (it could be either, their both no good)
13 Tindall
14 Cueto
15 Foden

I'm happy enough with that front five, not over awed but not actually too unhappy with the back row (assuming Wood is on the bench). 9 and 10 could be any of Youngs, Care (9) or Flood Wilkinson (10) depending on form. It's got to be Wilko and Care at the moment. 11 is most people's choice, as is 15. I'd be tempted to put Armitage on the wing instead of Cueto now though.

12 and 13 is the problem. If Hape plays Tindall cannot in my eyes. Not enough creativity. Tindall is very good at playing in Tindall's style, and that can be very effective if you have a greenwood/Catt style creative 12. We don't have that with Hape. Flutey can be very creative but is woefully out of form and has been for a while.

My team:

1- Stevens
2 - Hartley
3 - Cole
4 - Palmer
5 - Lawes
6 - Croft (covers 2nd row)
7 - Moody/Wood (2nd half)
8 - Easter

9 - Care
10 - Wilkinson
11 - Ashton
12 - Flood
13 - Tindall/Tuilagi (2nd half)
14 - Armitage
15 - Foden

16 - Sheridan/Corbs depending on Sheridan's form and fitness in training
17 - Thompson
18 - Wood
19 - Haskell
20 - Tuilagi
21 - Youngs
22 - Flutey

This is because I think the following *should* have played themselves out of contention for the 22 (MJ may well disagree)

Hape - Awful in the last game
Banahan - Tuilagi covers the same positions better
Fourie - Wasn't impressed

Until I change my mind....

The more i see people putting forward a Wilkinson/Flood 10/12 the more i'm coming round to the idea. The only issue i have is would we need extra bench cover for fly half?

I have been away for the last 2 weeks and missed both "friendlies" and therefore would be interested to hear the views of others as to England's strongest team for the RWC.
Front row - I personally like Sheridan and Stevens as the props, but accept that Sheridan has not played and therefore not displayed any form to warrant inclusion. Stevens is playing well and deserves to start over Cole? Corbisiero and Cole are ok but not more than that. Hartley to start as more dynamic with Thompson to come on later in games.
2nd row - not sure if MJ will revert to Palmer/Lawes combo but I think being out muscled by SA and Ireland means that a big lump must start for some games against big opposition. That means Deacon or Shaw, which is a close call. Aginst the Aussies we could go with Palmer/Lawes but against SA I would like to see Shaw start.
Back row - I think MJ will go with TC, Easter and Moody if all fit, but like others I would want to see Haskell at 8 as Easter is too ponderous. A major problem here as we keep getting cleared out on the floor. I think we need a fit and on form Moody at 7 otherwise we will continue to struggle and his body does not look up to it anymore.
9 - Care deserves to start on current form, but I appreciate Young has been injured but both he and Flood lost form during the 6Ns. Hopefully Young can recover confidence and make a big impact from the bench as the tournament goes on.
10 - Wilko with Flood coming off the bench. There is a fear factor for other sides in RWCs playing against him and then you add in Floods uninspiring form and it makes sense to start him. Flood fans will defend him by stating the lack of centre options makes it hard for him, which I accept, but at least he should keep the scoreboard ticking over via any means in that situation.
12/13 - Flutey/Tuilagi which is risky but should pose more questions to the opposition than Hape/Tindall. Defensively not as good but with England's possession we really need to make better use of that.
11/14/15 - stick with 6Ns starters although Armitage requires monitoring, but I think we should stay with Cueto, Ashton and Foden.

Overall - you need a settled side with good combos who are used to playing together at the highest level under pressure in order to win a RWC. England broke the mould last time in making the final with a side that changed a lot but that is the exception. We are a long way from knowing our best side and it is too late to hope that it will magically just happen at the RWC. The following 6Ns and the RWC 2015 are better bets. The back row and midfield issues are probably going to be our downfall and I don't see any great solutions. Everyone writes that whatever pack England put out will get sufficient possession, but often the quality of possession is poor and unless we can rediscover a decent rolling maul then we will remain easy to defend against.

Therefore we need JW to drop kick from everywhere, which is not what we envisaged after the last Aussie game. Tough decsions for MJ and I hope he gets it right.

From what I read of the 2 friendlies I hope Banahan and Hape are way down the pecking order. Tindall to be used as a sub?

Merging this with the existing selection debate - KRD

Flood is as brittle as a biscuit, why put him in the centre - it's ludicrous IMO - What's he gonna do when the likes of Nonu and Roberts run at him - You have some decent centres - play them.

Well that's part of the problem Ruby, our best centres were never in the squad in the first place. It's a case of finding a workable lash up at the moment!

RubyGuby wrote:Flood is as brittle as a biscuit, why put him in the centre - it's ludicrous IMO - What's he gonna do when the likes of Nonu and Roberts run at him - You have some decent centres - play them.

You put him at 10 in defence with Wilko at 12.

Name our decent out and out 12s in the squad please, I haven't seen any...

RubyGuby wrote:Flood is as brittle as a biscuit, why put him in the centre - it's ludicrous IMO - What's he gonna do when the likes of Nonu and Roberts run at him - You have some decent centres - play them.

Who?! We only have 2 out-and-out inside centres in the squad - flutey and hape - and one has shown no form for 2 years and one has shown no form......

9 - Care
10 - Wilkinson
11 - Sharples
12 - Armitage
13 - Tuilagi
14 - Ashcart
15 - Foden

What a great backline - power, pace and guile - Let me know when you need me to sort your backrow out

I got them round the wrong way - both have played in these positions for their clubs and Armitage is looking sharp again

Tuilagi is not a 12. He could be in the future but he doesn't have the distribution skills or the ability to read the game that a great 12 needs.

At Leicester he covers 13 and 14.

See changes above

To be fair having seen the 'wonders' 3 months of training has done for a lot of the England players i can't see a problem with bringing Barritt or Allan in now, infact they'll probably be in better form...

Armitage has never, ever played 12. I don't think he could manage it.

Armitage is also not a 12. Sorry. A very good 15 and a decent 13, but not a 12. This is the problem. We have lots of good 13s, we have 2 12s in the squad and one's always been crap and the other is woefully out of form.

I'd rather MJ tried Manu at 12 than stuck with Hape though...

Telegraph 2011:

It was only two years ago that Armitage, 27, was being lauded as the bright new thing of English rugby. He had broken into the side in autumn 2008 and went on to play 11 consecutive matches for England, being voted player of their season. A dislocated shoulder at the beginning of the 2009 season interrupted that run of success, Ben Foden taking his chance to shine while Armitage struggled for form on his return.

Even so, Armitage featured three times from the bench for England in November. Given that he plays centre and wing as well, Armitage is a valuable member of the squad. Things looked promising. Then the red mist descended

Jamie Roberts was a Full Back and Wing first before a 12 (13) - He has played 12 but internatiol level is a few steps up. Maybe the Leicester 12 should have been tried or some other experimentation rather that the bish bash boshers

The problem is our best 12's....are NOt in the England squad - Allen, barritt....prob even Turner Hall better than Hape.

Many people have said Allen cannot take it up to international level...but will happily slate hape to the ends of the Earth.

Why Allen has not had another chance i really do not have any idea. Played well this season offensively, has been defensively strong (is he the defence leader for tigers backs?) and oh he's young and ENGLISH....the contrast to Hape is staggering

Yappysnap I agree with you. England actually ruins the players. The longer they stay training the England squad the worse they get. Stevens hasn't been with England long enough yet.

From a Saracens perspective I am so glad England haven't ruined Goode and Barritt like they have done with Youngs and Flood.

I hope England drop Botha,Hodgson and Wigglesworth. Probably the latter will stay though.

RubyGuby wrote:Telegraph 2011:

It was only two years ago that Armitage, 27, was being lauded as the bright new thing of English rugby. He had broken into the side in autumn 2008 and went on to play 11 consecutive matches for England, being voted player of their season. A dislocated shoulder at the beginning of the 2009 season interrupted that run of success, Ben Foden taking his chance to shine while Armitage struggled for form on his return.

Even so, Armitage featured three times from the bench for England in November. Given that he plays centre and wing as well, Armitage is a valuable member of the squad. Things looked promising. Then the red mist descended

Eh? We know, he plays 13. OUTSIDE centre. Quite well too. Different to 12, INSIDE centre

GeordieFalcon wrote:The problem is our best 12's....are NOt in the England squad - Allen, barritt....prob even Turner Hall better than Hape.

Many people have said Allen cannot take it up to international level...but will happily slate hape to the ends of the Earth.

Why Allen has not had another chance i really do not have any idea. Played well this season offensively, has been defensively strong (is he the defence leader for tigers backs?) and oh he's young and ENGLISH....the contrast to Hape is staggering

Practically everyone on these boards has said we took the wrong 12s in the squad. One of Barritt or Allen or frankly any other qualified 12 in the Jeff would have been preferable. He didn't take them and so we have to bodge what's left. I think MJ gets a lot of derision that's unwarrented, however on this occassion he screwed up. He gambled on Armitage coming back to form and that paid off. He gambled on Flutey coming back to form and it really didn't pay off. Because Hape is rubbish we therefore have no 12s of any decent standard in the squad.

There's no point invoking Allen or whomever now though as they are not in the squad and won't be picked. With these limitations I think 10 Wilko and 12 Flood is the best option. They've played together in these positions before and you simply swap them round in defence.

MJ took a gamble of picking Hape and Flutey. It has failed miserably I am glad to report. The overrated Fourie also didn't live up to his billing.

Could it be a blessing in disguise if MJ messes up?If he fails to reach the quarter finals we can get rid of him and bring in some good England management. Would be great to see Mallinder stepping into the breach and getting rid of the dead wood like Wells,Ford and Smith.

We could always keep our fingers crossed for Flutey/Hape to eat some dodgy Nandos chicken. Kaboom! in come the injury cover of Allan/Barrit and then we actually get to see how a good 12 may do.

I would like to see flutey givena nother run at 12 against ireland. Hape surely played himself out of the starting team - and while Flutey didn't shine last week against wales i don't think he played badly. This close to the WC it's tough as there aren't many games left to judge people on.
The problem is that there simply aren't many opitons, so Flutey again at 12 seems like the best hope, with Tindall at 13.

As to coaches i'm not too fussed if they are English, I had been secretly hoping for Robbie Deans but he's resigned with the Wallabies.

Only Eng coaches I can think of are either Mallinder or Richards, either way they need to sack the assistant coaches first thing (this was MJ's biggest mistake in my opinion).

Ever since Andy Robinson left the role and Ford took over our forwards have slowly turned to Poopie

Yappysnap I thought Ford was defence coach. Wells is forwards coach. Smith is attack coach. Happy to be proved wrong. Only one who could be allowed to stay is cauliflower ears Rowntree.

Yappy isnt Wells the forward coach?

I do hope Flutey suddenly finds some form...but ill not hold my breath. Rather him than the utterly useless Hape.

I'd also like to see us be a bit more intelligent at the breakdown. England are trying to be clever committing the least number of players to the breakdown. However they need to be smart and know when to have the right numbers in the right breakdown scenarios.

dummy_half wrote:Ruby

One of the things that would help us is that when the ball is laid back well (something both Easter and Tindall in particular do - stretching out to get the ball clear of the contact area), the first English player on the scene should pick and drive the ball and tie in further defenders, Instead they seem to dither and be not sure whether they should take the ball or commit to the ruck, which results in the second defender coming through and making a mess of everything.

I think this is one reason we are missing Youngs - he seems to be the best organiser of our SHs to make sure we get the ball moving quickly.

thats the issue though, England were that slow at getting to the rucks, they wouldnt of had any support and would of turned the ball over!

Do agree RE Youngs though, he seems to tie up the defence around the rucks which creates more space out wide.

Matt Banahan has to be dropped. Rugby is about creating and using mismatches. Case in point England create a massive mismatch against Wales on Saturday, with Matt Banahan receiving the ball 5m out from the try line and only Shane Williams in his way.

Just to make this clear, that's Matt Banahan 6ft 7 18st 2lb up against Shane Williams 5ft 7 12st 8lb. 5m out, and Banahan is an entire foot taller and over 5 stone heavier and yet he gets stooped by Williams, and fails to score.

Just to make this clear, that's Matt Banahan 6ft 7 18st 2lb up against Shane Williams 5ft 7 12st 8lb. 5m out, and Banahan is an entire foot taller and over 5 stone heavier and yet he gets stooped by Williams, and fails to score. .

That incident was embarrassing on a number of levels;

1) where's the hand off, Banahan is far bigger and Williams goes high (verging on a high tackle), where's the paw to the face to stop his latching on?
2) no running angle, no footwork. It's far to easy to Williams to come across and make the tackle, a little stutter or a step in then out would have forced Williams to check his run and would have meant he had less momentum going into the tackle.
3) what kind of 18 stone winger runs into contact standing up? If you're that big drop your shoulder and go through the little guy, especially when they're trying to go high.

Three basic tactics for a winger and he used none of them, pathetic (and that's someone who thinks Banahan is quite a decent player as well, Saturday aside).