England - played 2 lost 2 - we're coming home.

So what went wrong?

So close yet so far, again.

Was it taking off Sterling in the 64min?

Was it keeping Gerrard on when his legs had gone after 60 mins?

The same problem England have had for years now: no system. Good players, but every tournament is about trying to fit in all the various shapes (Gerrard/Lampard in the past, Rooney now) instead of building a structure that works.

That's not true, England lack quality players.

The best players at the top teams are foreign, the top English players are the support act for big sides or in mid table sides.

How were you close if it's a first round knockout?

Exactly.

We were so close... to drawing two games   

Ent wrote:That's not true, England lack quality players (...) the top English players are the support act for big sides or in mid table sides.

Half the teams at this tournament wish they had a squad full of players that play for mid table Premier League sides.

Annoying, as we have played well in spells in both games, admittedly better for longer in the Italy game, but second half tonight after the first 5 minutes we were definitely the better side. First half Uruguay showed what our big problems are - lack of technique on the ball from the defenders/defensive midfielders and inadequate movement from the forwards when the opponents are pressing the ball. Once we started getting some time and space on the ball, we looked much better, but then got suckered with a simple route 1 goal.

What went wrong? Individual mistakes - Gerrard wins the tackle in midfield and the first goal doesn't happen, and makes the header and the second doesn't. Rooney puts away the chance against Italy (that he dragged wide) and either of the two he missed tonight and we could easily be sitting on 4 points. Cahill doesn't lose Balotelli and Jagielka lose Suarez and they would clean up the crosses. Johnson tonight and Baines on Saturday close down the wide players better and stop the crosses...

We're not a great side, and we do lack an absolutely top class player, but the differences over the two games have been small and are not so much system or coaching issues as simply the performances of some of the players. Hopefully we can at least put up a good performance against Costa Rica and go out with a bit of a flourish...

which is exactly why half the teams in this world cup will be going home in the first round

As a Scotland fan could you tell me what you are doing so we could copy it, I'd love to be knocked out in the first round of a World Cup

Lowlandbrit wrote:

Ent wrote:That's not true, England lack quality players (...) the top English players are the support act for big sides or in mid table sides.

Half the teams at this tournament wish they had a squad full of players that play for mid table Premier League sides.

Yep - look at someone like Medel for Chile - relegated with Cardiff and didn't exactly take the EPL by storm, yet is in a team that is doing much better than a side comprising players from the top 8 Premier league sides (indeed, if I have it correct, only the two back up goal-keepers come from outside those teams).. We have plenty of good players and a couple who are or will become very good, but lack one magic player of the calibre of Suarez.

I think Roy has at least tried to take us the right way - more young players and more attacking flair, but he hasn't quite got the balance right with the midfield or with his continued belief that Welbeck is the best option on the left wing.

Welbeck is absolute Poopie

Welbeck was very good against Italy. Very good. He played with an intensity that his teammates will have loved and think his withdrawal was when we stopped looking so dangerous

Dr Gregory House MD wrote:As a Scotland fan could you tell me what you are doing so we could copy it, I'd love to be knocked out in the first round of a World Cup

A hell of a post. Very magnanimous.    

Lowlandbrit wrote:

Ent wrote:That's not true, England lack quality players (...) the top English players are the support act for big sides or in mid table sides.

Half the teams at this tournament wish they had a squad full of players that play for mid table Premier League sides.

Such as?

The reason why so many of our players play for mid-table EPL teams is because they're English. Not every EPL team can afford a squad of foreign talents.

Not true - there is a premium on English talent. It often costs a lot more.

Players a aren't good enough.

Man united would not need rvp if rooneys and welbeck were top players.

Its a team in transition. We all accepted this pre tournament.

PMSL.

Just saying.

So much for Suarez being injured. I said that even a 50% fit Suarez would be too good for our hapless defence. I mean, seriously, how bad can it get? Henderson and Jagielka looked out of their depth. Johnson and Baines are decent in attack but poor in defence.. Cahill had a shocker yesterday too. But the worst player in the side was Gerrard.. He has never done anything useful for England in World Cups but yesterday was incompetence on another level. Absolutely woeful. Rooney did finally break the jinx but also missed a lot of easy chances. Sterling looked well below his best too.

Have I missed anyone?   


All in all, a very poor performance... to paraphrase what I read from another poster on another forum - bad defending, poor delivery, poor finishing. we just aren't good enough.  

I hope Hodgson isn't sacked though. He has built a good young side here. Deserves a 4 year cycle. Especially when the alternative is as bad as 'Arry. Just need to be more flexible. Hope we don't see Gerrard in an England shirt again and completely revamp the defence. The likes of Shaw need to be given more chances to develop...

Just came across this... Interesting article... http://www.firstpost.com/sports/drop-ge ... 79693.html

In fairness, Rooney was our best player yesterday and with 1 assist and 1 goal in 2 matches, this is already by far his best World Cup but he was starting from a low base and would be past his prime at the next World Cup (if he isn't already). If he couldn't deliver in his prime, should we keep faith in Wazza for 2018?

Also perhaps a change of strategy? Reverting to a 3 man midfield rather than the 2 man midfield we have right now?

Who'll be the new captain btw? Not that it really matters in the manner it does in Cricket but still.......

Need to find a better goalkeeper too. Hart is nothing more than okay. I grew up watching David Seaman in goal for England. This is quite a decline in quality. Only saving grace is that Hart is better than Green....

Outs - Rooney, Lampard, Jagielka, Gerrard, Johnson for starters!

Roy needs to be replaced with a young enthusiastic manager playing attacking football.

Why does England have the "fastest league" in the world yet drop to the pace of a tortoise at international level.

Surely we should be using that to our advantage...whack the pace up and go at teams at 90 miles an hour.

More Baines fault than Jagielka's fault for Suarez's first goal.

Rooney is still the only quality attacker England have, at top level the rest are just pretenders.

When it comes down to it the players are just average. Not surprising when the U-21 Premier League is turning out so very few players that make it anywhere in league football never mind the premier league.

The new proposals to allow premier league clubs to field 'B' teams in the lower leagues can't come quickly enough. Some type of cap on foreign players playing in British youth and reserve team football would also be good.

I think i would go further and make a minimum 3/4 English starters in the premier league rule Strongbak. Put an end to the days where not a single Englishman starts a game for an English team in the premiership.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think i would go further and make a minimum 3/4 English starters in the premier league rule Strongbak. Put an end to the days where not a single Englishman starts a game for an English team in the premiership.

Only 4? I'd say minimum of 7. Maximum of 4 overseas players like we have in the IPL (Indian domestic t20 cricket league).

That just makes the league worse.

Te top sides would start English players if they were good enough.

Export some players, English players only play in England whereas the genuine top footballing nations have a domestic league full of homegrown players and exports playing in other top leagues.

ShankyCricket wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think i would go further and make a minimum 3/4 English starters in the premier league rule Strongbak. Put an end to the days where not a single Englishman starts a game for an English team in the premiership.

Only 4? I'd say minimum of 7. Maximum of 4 overseas players like we have in the IPL (Indian domestic t20 cricket league).

You do realise there was a foreigner rule in Europe before?

England were still crap and the club sides did badly.

Ent wrote:

Lowlandbrit wrote:

Ent wrote:That's not true, England lack quality players (...) the top English players are the support act for big sides or in mid table sides.

Half the teams at this tournament wish they had a squad full of players that play for mid table Premier League sides.

Such as?

Basically England's entire squad is made up of regular starters on top half Premier League teams. How many other countries have players that didn't play much for their clubs, or play for teams in much worse leagues? By my count there's 9 squads with Championship players alone, not counting Brazil's keeper who couldn't get a game for QPR last year. England's problem isn't a lack of good players, it's not committing to a playing style and trying to squeeze everyone in.

Some of the squads may have some lower division players but whorl with serious ambition of doing well do?

They are balanced out by genuine top class players and main men for their club sides if they do.

Ent, The Foreigner rule was indeed in place, and i think it should be brought back

There does need to be a minimum of English players...3/4 is a good number for me initially. Too many sides arent playing any Englishmen at all at the moment and whilst i agree the Engish side hasnt been strong for a long time, this scenario isnt helping!

Even my own Newcastle playing a side FULL of average foreigners with no passion or care as opposed to passionate local lads who will fight for the club and will improve with gametime.

ShankyCricket wrote:Need to find a better goalkeeper too. Hart is nothing more than okay. I grew up watching David Seaman in goal for England. This is quite a decline in quality. Only saving grace is that Hart is better than Green....

Although he's not spectacular, Hart is an improvement to David "safe hands" Seaman, a goalkeeper capable of brilliance but who is mainly know for a few howlers (ronaldinho 2002 "free kick"). hart is probably best goalkeeper in England since Shilton by a distance...

I think the real problem is mentality. We expect to be inferior and as such play so. 

As a side note, one of the hardest things for inexperienced sides to master is how to win. 

My final word, England have potential, not ability right now. Takes time for potential to become ability. We might not have Luis Suarez's or Mario Balotelli's yet, but we may have in 2/4 years.

And yeah, I don't see the issue with Hart. Could have done very little with the 4 goals conceded. Bounced back strongly from the issues he had in September.

whocares wrote:

ShankyCricket wrote:Need to find a better goalkeeper too. Hart is nothing more than okay. I grew up watching David Seaman in goal for England. This is quite a decline in quality. Only saving grace is that Hart is better than Green....

Although he's not spectacular, Hart is an improvement to David "safe hands" Seaman, a goalkeeper capable of brilliance but who is mainly know for a few howlers (ronaldinho 2002 "free kick"). hart is probably best goalkeeper in England since Shilton by a distance...

  Hart's not fit to lace David Seamans boots!

GSC wrote:I think the real problem is mentality. We expect to be inferior and as such play so. 

As a side note, one of the hardest things for inexperienced sides to master is how to win. 

My final word, England have potential, not ability right now. Takes time for potential to become ability. We might not have Luis Suarez's or Mario Balotelli's yet, but we may have in 2/4 years.

Totally agree...and we need the right man to manage that through, im not convinced its Roy Hodgson.

Who is though? Pearce was being groomed to take over from Capello a few years ago but that went by the wayside post the last U21 tournament. I don't think anybody will be seriously putting Southgate forward. Arry's never been interested in bringing through youth.

So you're looking abroad to someone with no knowledge of our youth system.

why we dont see more former English high profile players being involved with coaching?

Well GSC thats the question.

Ive never really seen Pearce as an England manager to be fair. But my preferance would be British.

Someone in the mold of a Rodgers. A young guy whos passionate, enthusiastic, plays the game the right way and with pace.

The problem is as you say not many of those around!

Hart has nice hair!

But as a Keeper he is awful, no wonder our defence looks scared with him in goal.

What has Hart done particularly badly? Can't really recall him being a liability, done whats been asked of him. As I say, no chance with any of the goals.

Sean Dyche is a name to keep an eye I guess, but way too early for that. A possibility post 2016

GeordieFalcon wrote:

GSC wrote:I think the real problem is mentality. We expect to be inferior and as such play so. 

As a side note, one of the hardest things for inexperienced sides to master is how to win. 

My final word, England have potential, not ability right now. Takes time for potential to become ability. We might not have Luis Suarez's or Mario Balotelli's yet, but we may have in 2/4 years.

Totally agree...and we need the right man to manage that through, im not convinced its Roy Hodgson.

You can't polish a turd. You could have anyone in charge of England, it wouldn't make much difference.
If your're a second rate team with second rate players who can't adapt to the type of play required for World Cups, it's irrelevant who is in charge.

James Ward won't win Wimbledon if you put Ivan Lendl in charge of him.
Teams on Englands level like Switzerland, Russia, Croatia simply get on with it and accept their level. Why can't England? They aren't challengers, they were never going to be, deal with it.

Anyone keep bleating about how to change the system etc but the 'root' of the problem is the coaching at the very basic level when the kids are first coming into the game.
Poor pitches, parent coaches, overzealous dads, cost to become coach massively overpriced compared to mainland Europe.
We can keep plastering over the wound by looking at the short term issues, but the truth is the internal bleed from the youth development in this country is what is crippling the English game.

Agreed, it is mad to me that a in country so obsessed with football there is such a huge reliance on voluntary community input to run things like mini soccer and under age teams.

Gary Neville would get the dumb c*nts who read The Sun vote. Well, second place to red top hero saggy Redknapp.

When people start concerning themselves with learning the basics and having a bit of discipline and passion for the game instead of worrying about whether or not they should buy boots that cost £140 instead of a paltry £120 THEN we might stand a chance.

2nd biggest news story concerning England? Adidas and Nike getting into a p!ssing contest over the clothes the England players are wearing. If I was working for Adidas, I'd be bloody delighted that my product wasn't being worn by a bunch of footballers who are currently being kicked the length and breadth of the media world.