Sexto's coming home

http://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/sexton-to-return-to-leinster-with-fouryear-contract-30533595.html

Best news of the summer

Good news for Leinster!

Together with the Welsh news this is looking like a good week.

Is this good news for Leinster but is it good for Ireland with two international fly halfs now taking game time from each other?

formerly known as Sam wrote:Is this good news for Leinster but is it good for Ireland with two international fly halfs now taking game time from each other?

It would be a problem if there were not a few other promising fly halfs about (Jackson & JJ) who will be coming into their prime in 2 or 3 years time when Sexton is getting on a bit.

Very good news for Sexton, Leinster and Ireland. Good bit of business.

I think the competition will be good for Madigan, plus there's always the option that he'll get game time at 12 alongside Sexton.

For me Sexton is the best and most complete 10 in the NH. Madigan is not there yet.

D'Arcy will retire after the WC leaving a 12 spot to put Madigan in for big games. Like Gitteau and Wilkinson at Toulon. During the rest of the season they can both play a bit of 10. Win win. Leinster AND Ireland

Agree Jen, this can only be good news for Leinster and Ireland, Madigan to switch completely to 12. Him and sexton linking regularly at 10,12 would be mouth watering

formerly known as Sam wrote:Is this good news for Leinster but is it good for Ireland with two international fly halfs now taking game time from each other?

Yes it's very, very good news. In a World Cup year the Irish internationals do not return to their provinces for a full pre-season but work as a national team in pre-season long before the actual international window for the World Cup begins. Sexton will be able to be a part of that as opposed to only being available in the international window. He will also be available for all other Ireland training camps outside the international windows for the duration of his contract and he'll be managed in terms of game time to make sure he is fresh for test rugby.

On the Madigan issue, he hasn't been able to make himself first choice at 10 with Sexton gone anyway and I think he could be really excellent outside a top 10.

Just to play devils, don't bite my head off.

Isn't this an agreement to begin after the RWC? Won't he be 30 then, going on 31?

So he'll slog it out all season for metro, if they get to the final it'll be mid June. He then has warm up games from August before the tournament starts in september. How much off time will he get before joining Ireland?

Then theres the beggining of the new season, he won't be available for a while.

Leinster must be shelling out a small fortune to beat off the likes of Toulon, to sign a 30 yr old guy, who has been flogged for 14 months straight, on a contract that takes him to 34?

That is some commitment.

Neutralee wrote:Just to play devils, don't bite my head off.

Isn't this an agreement to begin after the RWC? Won't he be 30 then, going on 31?

So he'll slog it out all season for metro, if they get to the final it'll be mid June. He then has warm up games from August before the tournament starts in september. How much off time will he get before joining Ireland?

Then theres the beggining of the new season, he won't be available for a while.

Leinster must be shelling out a small fortune to beat off the likes of Toulon, to sign a 30 yr old guy, who has been flogged for 14 months straight, on a contract that takes him to 34?

That is some commitment.

He'll be signed by the IRFU who will pay his wages directly. They'll probably pay him the same as the highest paid player in Ireland, which is Heaslip currently, but they have just taken BOD off the payroll so that pretty much covers it. At 30 he will be far from past his best, he had a relativity late start in his career so plenty of miles on the clock.

Neutralee wrote:
So he'll slog it out all season for metro, if they get to the final it'll be mid June.

Final was 31st May this year. I don't think it will be any later than that.

Mickado wrote:

Neutralee wrote:Just to play devils, don't bite my head off.

Isn't this an agreement to begin after the RWC? Won't he be 30 then, going on 31?

So he'll slog it out all season for metro, if they get to the final it'll be mid June. He then has warm up games from August before the tournament starts in september. How much off time will he get before joining Ireland?

Then theres the beggining of the new season, he won't be available for a while.

Leinster must be shelling out a small fortune to beat off the likes of Toulon, to sign a 30 yr old guy, who has been flogged for 14 months straight, on a contract that takes him to 34?

That is some commitment.

He'll be signed by the IRFU who will pay his wages directly. They'll probably pay him the same as the highest paid player in Ireland, which is Heaslip currently, but they have just taken BOD off the payroll so that pretty much covers it. At 30 he will be far from past his best, he had a relativity late start in his career so plenty of miles on the clock.

I've think Heislip is on 4,500K per annum, so his 4 year deal will be worth about 2 million (as compared to about 4 million Toulon/Racing are offering).

Neutralee wrote:Just to play devils, don't bite my head off.

Isn't this an agreement to begin after the RWC? Won't he be 30 then, going on 31?

So he'll slog it out all season for metro, if they get to the final it'll be mid June. He then has warm up games from August before the tournament starts in september. How much off time will he get before joining Ireland?

Then theres the beggining of the new season, he won't be available for a while.

Leinster must be shelling out a small fortune to beat off the likes of Toulon, to sign a 30 yr old guy, who has been flogged for 14 months straight, on a contract that takes him to 34?

That is some commitment.

You don't seem to understand how it works with senior Irish international players. Leinster will not be paying the vast majority of his contract, the IRFU will. The agreement is to begin in the pre-season before the RWC. The reason he's been brought home is the IRFU are willing to finance a deal for him to play for Ireland first, Leinster second.If it was just Leinster competing for him with no support from the IRFU they would stand little chance. No, his salary will be payed directly by the Union.

That said, four years is a long one. Not a contract the IRFU would be happy to commit to without the pressure of a similar length of contract being on the table in France.

Sin

Hasn't the T14 final been pushed by a few weeks next year, to become the finale of european rugby?

I'm not saying Sexton will be a bad signature, he is the best 10 in the NH, but to be signing a guy turning 31, for 4 years, after just playing for 14 months solid including a RWC, what will he actually be available for in the 2015/16 season, the back end maybe?

Just highlighting the other side of the argument.

Notch

I get that he'll be payed by the IRFU, if the signing was this season it'd be a pearler, but he'll be playing heavily over the next season, and if metro do well he'll be playing solid till mid June, have a few weeks off if he's lucky before meeting with the Irish camp for RWC prep. Thats a long season, and one that couldbe considered the most important and pinnacle of his career. Signing him after such a season isn't as usefull as signing him before seasons start.

Will he make the 2019 RWC at 34?

Neutralee wrote:Sin

Hasn't the T14 final been pushed by a few weeks next year, to become the finale of european rugby?

I'm not saying Sexton will be a bad signature, he is the best 10 in the NH, but to be signing a guy turning 31, for 4 years, after just playing for 14 months solid including a RWC, what will he actually be available for in the 2015/16 season, the back end maybe?

Just highlighting the other side of the argument.

They have brought the European Cup forward to 1st May so that they can play the Top 14 at the end of May. Sexton's season with Racing will be finished at the end of May (if not earlier  )

I don't think he will be overplayed by Racing (what with ROG his coach, but more importantly, Racing have recruited Johann Goosen who is highly rated).

Sin é wrote:

Neutralee wrote:Sin

Hasn't the T14 final been pushed by a few weeks next year, to become the finale of european rugby?

I'm not saying Sexton will be a bad signature, he is the best 10 in the NH, but to be signing a guy turning 31, for 4 years, after just playing for 14 months solid including a RWC, what will he actually be available for in the 2015/16 season, the back end maybe?

Just highlighting the other side of the argument.

They have brought the European Cup forward to 1st May so that they can play the Top 14 at the end of May. Sexton's season with Racing will be finished at the end of May (if not earlier  )

It's been announced as 13th June mate. As you say though Sexton may well be done a few weeks earlier.

Neutralee wrote:Notch

I get that he'll be payed by the IRFU, if the signing was this season it'd be a pearler, but he'll be playing heavily over the next season, and if metro do well he'll be playing solid till mid June, have a few weeks off if he's lucky before meeting with the Irish camp for RWC prep. Thats a long season, and one that couldbe considered the most important and pinnacle of his career. Signing him after such a season isn't as usefull as signing him before seasons start.

Will he make the 2019 RWC at 34?

Probably, in fact almost certainly unless he sustains an injury forcing him to retire, but I doubt he'll be first choice by then.

Notch wrote:

Neutralee wrote:Notch

I get that he'll be payed by the IRFU, if the signing was this season it'd be a pearler, but he'll be playing heavily over the next season, and if metro do well he'll be playing solid till mid June, have a few weeks off if he's lucky before meeting with the Irish camp for RWC prep. Thats a long season, and one that couldbe considered the most important and pinnacle of his career. Signing him after such a season isn't as usefull as signing him before seasons start.

Will he make the 2019 RWC at 34?

Probably, in fact almost certainly unless he sustains an injury forcing him to retire, but I doubt he'll be first choice by then.

Really? 34 yrs old, going 35? Dan Carter is 32 now and questions are being asked if he's going to make next year.

Neutralee wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Neutralee wrote:Sin

Hasn't the T14 final been pushed by a few weeks next year, to become the finale of european rugby?

I'm not saying Sexton will be a bad signature, he is the best 10 in the NH, but to be signing a guy turning 31, for 4 years, after just playing for 14 months solid including a RWC, what will he actually be available for in the 2015/16 season, the back end maybe?

Just highlighting the other side of the argument.

They have brought the European Cup forward to 1st May so that they can play the Top 14 at the end of May. Sexton's season with Racing will be finished at the end of May (if not earlier  )

It's been announced as 13th June mate. As you say though Sexton may well be done a few weeks earlier.

Jesus, French rugby is in a right mess now. Just as well none of their top players are playing in any teams that are likely to make the Top 14 playoffs so that they can do a summer tour.

Sin é wrote:

Neutralee wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Neutralee wrote:Sin

Hasn't the T14 final been pushed by a few weeks next year, to become the finale of european rugby?

I'm not saying Sexton will be a bad signature, he is the best 10 in the NH, but to be signing a guy turning 31, for 4 years, after just playing for 14 months solid including a RWC, what will he actually be available for in the 2015/16 season, the back end maybe?

Just highlighting the other side of the argument.

They have brought the European Cup forward to 1st May so that they can play the Top 14 at the end of May. Sexton's season with Racing will be finished at the end of May (if not earlier  )

It's been announced as 13th June mate. As you say though Sexton may well be done a few weeks earlier.

Jesus, French rugby is in a right mess now. Just as well none of their top players are playing in any teams that are likely to make the Top 14 playoffs so that they can do a summer tour.

6 weeks between euro final and T14 final is a bit weird, it begs the question why were the French so eager to have the euro final on the first weekend of may AND delay their final by 2 weeks?! It does make a real focal point of the T14 final, I'm pretty sure the idea is to create THE european league to play in and support, and kill off home nations club rugby.

Your right, majority of French internationals will be rested feet up come may.

Neutralee wrote:

Notch wrote:

Neutralee wrote:Notch

I get that he'll be payed by the IRFU, if the signing was this season it'd be a pearler, but he'll be playing heavily over the next season, and if metro do well he'll be playing solid till mid June, have a few weeks off if he's lucky before meeting with the Irish camp for RWC prep. Thats a long season, and one that couldbe considered the most important and pinnacle of his career. Signing him after such a season isn't as usefull as signing him before seasons start.

Will he make the 2019 RWC at 34?

Probably, in fact almost certainly unless he sustains an injury forcing him to retire, but I doubt he'll be first choice by then.

Really? 34 yrs old, going 35? Dan Carter is 32 now and questions are being asked if he's going to make next year.

Dan Carter's international career began in 2003, Sexton's began in 2009. Yes Sexton will be 34 when he's contact is up, but he has a lot fewer miles on the clock.

Mickado wrote:

Neutralee wrote:

Notch wrote:

Neutralee wrote:Notch

I get that he'll be payed by the IRFU, if the signing was this season it'd be a pearler, but he'll be playing heavily over the next season, and if metro do well he'll be playing solid till mid June, have a few weeks off if he's lucky before meeting with the Irish camp for RWC prep. Thats a long season, and one that couldbe considered the most important and pinnacle of his career. Signing him after such a season isn't as usefull as signing him before seasons start.

Will he make the 2019 RWC at 34?

Probably, in fact almost certainly unless he sustains an injury forcing him to retire, but I doubt he'll be first choice by then.

Really? 34 yrs old, going 35? Dan Carter is 32 now and questions are being asked if he's going to make next year.

Dan Carter's international career began in 2003, Sexton's began in 2009. Yes Sexton will be 34 when he's contact is up, but he has a lot fewer miles on the clock.

You know he's not an actual car though right? Just because a player matures later doesn't mean his career will last any longer, the body doesn't work that way.

The reason most players start declining in their early 30's is mainly down to training principles, not maturation rate. Look at Ryan Giggs as an example, started at 17 and went into his mid 30's, mainly because of how he adjusted his training when his body stopped making gains.

Anyone relying in a 34 yr old Fly half is going to be dissapointed, in reality he's probably going to be a fringe player, if fully fit. I would be looking to bring him back to Ireland for the 2015 RWC, and to help 2/3 guys take his mantle for the 2019 RWC, with a view to phasing Sextons international career out by about 2018 or so, to allow for gametime for the next guy.

I think the questions around Carter are driven by injury but principally Aaron Cruden. Even if Carter were 100% fit would he still be first choice for the All Blacks?

It all depends on fitness and the competition. Players like Wilkinson, Catt, Jones, O'Gara all played top rugby into their 30s. I think much depends on the type of player (i.e. does his quality depend on something that may decline, such as pace) and can he adapt as time goes on (in the way that Wilkinson and BOD did).

I think a contract from 30 - 34 is fine for a fly half of Sexton's quality. He's probably in his prime at the moment, and by the end of the contract will probably have moved towards elder statesman in the side. Better to have that quality and experience within Irish rugby than outside - bringing through the likes of Madigan at Leinster and Jackson and Hanrahan with Ireland.

I still think this is a good deal, and you cannot assume anything of a player purely because he'll be 34. Mike Catt played some of his best rugby in his 30s.

Your right, I was just adding a more pragmatic view on the deal oppsed to the romance, which is totally understandable, if I were Irish this news would make my day.

I do think it's a good sign in the power struggle of european rugby also.

With regards to Sextons style he is a pretty fluid runner, and takes the ball to the line alot as well as playing link man, if his pace drops or his engine he'll struggle to live with the pace of 22/23 yr old baheameths and strikemen coming down his channell. He will have to develop his game, but in his defence he has a pretty good ROG eye for the game too, so it wouldn't take too much.

Neutralee wrote:

Notch wrote:

Neutralee wrote:Notch

I get that he'll be payed by the IRFU, if the signing was this season it'd be a pearler, but he'll be playing heavily over the next season, and if metro do well he'll be playing solid till mid June, have a few weeks off if he's lucky before meeting with the Irish camp for RWC prep. Thats a long season, and one that couldbe considered the most important and pinnacle of his career. Signing him after such a season isn't as usefull as signing him before seasons start.

Will he make the 2019 RWC at 34?

Probably, in fact almost certainly unless he sustains an injury forcing him to retire, but I doubt he'll be first choice by then.

Really? 34 yrs old, going 35? Dan Carter is 32 now and questions are being asked if he's going to make next year.

Yeah I think so. Carters situation is down to recurrent injuries. If Sexton is in a similar position and he retires early then the length of the contract is moot. I can't see him not being in the three best 10s at that point but I can't see him being first choice. And he'll not be going on 35 expect in the way anyone who is 34 is. The World Cup is 2019 is only a few months after his 34th birthday and it's also after the contract announced today will have expired. This contract will expire shortly before he turns 34.

Happy he is coming back to Leinster. Just hope that the bean counters have worked out their figures and we don't end up losing out on retain some of our other talented core who are out of contract at the end of this season.

What will this mean for ROG at Racing? Was he the security blanket to integrate Sexytoes into the Racing team or will he be kept in his own right. Also how many of the other Racing names joined because they saw Sexton in there and JW retiring down in Toulon. Might some of that Welsh contingent look to move within the Top14 or even back to Wales since peace has broken out in the Valleys?

Neutralee wrote:

Mickado wrote:

Neutralee wrote:

Notch wrote:

Neutralee wrote:Notch

I get that he'll be payed by the IRFU, if the signing was this season it'd be a pearler, but he'll be playing heavily over the next season, and if metro do well he'll be playing solid till mid June, have a few weeks off if he's lucky before meeting with the Irish camp for RWC prep. Thats a long season, and one that couldbe considered the most important and pinnacle of his career. Signing him after such a season isn't as usefull as signing him before seasons start.

Will he make the 2019 RWC at 34?

Probably, in fact almost certainly unless he sustains an injury forcing him to retire, but I doubt he'll be first choice by then.

Really? 34 yrs old, going 35? Dan Carter is 32 now and questions are being asked if he's going to make next year.

Dan Carter's international career began in 2003, Sexton's began in 2009. Yes Sexton will be 34 when he's contact is up, but he has a lot fewer miles on the clock.

You know he's not an actual car though right? Just because a player matures later doesn't mean his career will last any longer, the body doesn't work that way.

The reason most players start declining in their early 30's is mainly down to training principles, not maturation rate. Look at Ryan Giggs as an example, started at 17 and went into his mid 30's, mainly because of how he adjusted his training when his body stopped making gains.

Anyone relying in a 34 yr old Fly half is going to be dissapointed, in reality he's probably going to be a fringe player, if fully fit. I would be looking to bring him back to Ireland for the 2015 RWC, and to help 2/3 guys take his mantle for the 2019 RWC, with a view to phasing Sextons international career out by about 2018 or so, to allow for gametime for the next guy.

Oh right yeah, thanks for the facetious reply, very much required.

mick

Well you just kept repeating he had fewer miles on the clock, which of course doesn't matter.

Notch

When does his contrat start? Post July? Then he'll be 30 on signing and 34 on completion right? Your right though he will not be contracted come RWC 2019.

Like I said, just trying to add a more pragmatic response to 'he's coming home' type feelings. The IRFU have had to pay for him, and pay for him for the ret of his career it looks like.

One can only hope a Stephen Jones type situation where the player returns stronger than when he left.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Happy he is coming back to Leinster. Just hope that the bean counters have worked out their figures and we don't end up losing out on retain some of our other talented core who are out of contract at the end of this season.

What will this mean for ROG at Racing? Was he the security blanket to integrate Sexytoes into the Racing team or will he be kept in his own right.  Also how many of the other Racing names joined because they saw Sexton in there and JW retiring down in Toulon. Might some of that Welsh contingent look to move within the Top14 or even back to Wales since peace has broken out in the Valleys?

ROG extended his contract with Racing earlier in the year. He is now Defensive Coach and Skills coach. I think he is there under his own steam, to be fair. He was never brought in as a security blanket for Sexton. Mike Phillips was fired by his last French club, so it was probably down to ROG that he got the job in the first place. I'd imagine Jaws is happy to renew his parnership with Casey Laulala more than anything else. I doubt if Toulon would be in a rush to sign him. None of the Welsh players have stood out with Racing, so I wouldn't be surprised if Lydiate went home as he seems to be a bit of a homebird anyway.

edit: O'Gara's contract is extended to summer 2016 as Skills, Defence and Kicking coach.

Sin é wrote:

ROG extended his contract with Racing earlier in the year. He is now Defensive Coach and Skills coach. I think he is there under his own steam, to be fair. He was never brought in as a security blanket for Sexton. Mike Phillips was fired by his last French club, so it was probably down to ROG that he got the job in the first place. I'd imagine Jaws is happy to renew his parnership with Casey Laulala more than anything else. I doubt if Toulon would be in a rush to sign him. None of the Welsh players have stood out with Racing, so I wouldn't be surprised if Lydiate went home as he seems to be a bit of a homebird anyway.

edit: O'Gara's contract is extended to summer 2016 as Skills, Defence and Kicking coach.[/quote]

If either of those are true I will actually be amazed! ROG couldn't defend the cookie jar from his kids, and by all reports Racing were lining Phillips up for months, and had an original offer in place for the following season anyway, getting sacked hastened that didn't it?

Yes, O'Gara is responsible for defence at Racing Metro.

Yes, Sexton will be 34 when his contract finishes but not 34 when the last season he is contracted to play in finishes.

Neutralee wrote:

ROG extended his contract with Racing earlier in the year. He is now Defensive Coach and Skills coach. I think he is there under his own steam, to be fair. He was never brought in as a security blanket for Sexton. Mike Phillips was fired by his last French club, so it was probably down to ROG that he got the job in the first place. I'd imagine Jaws is happy to renew his parnership with Casey Laulala more than anything else. I doubt if Toulon would be in a rush to sign him. None of the Welsh players have stood out with Racing, so I wouldn't be surprised if Lydiate went home as he seems to be a bit of a homebird anyway.

edit: O'Gara's contract is extended to summer 2016 as Skills, Defence and Kicking coach.

If either of those are true I will actually be amazed! ROG couldn't defend the cookie jar from his kids, and by all reports Racing were lining Phillips up for months, and had an original offer in place for the following season anyway, getting sacked hastened that didn't it? [/quote]

Ronan O’Gara has confirmed he is ready to sign a contract extension to 2016 with Racing Metro — ruling out any short-term return to Munster.

O’Gara said talks are well advanced on a new two-year agreement with the Top 14 outfit that will see him and his family remain in the French capital until the summer of 2016 at least. His responsibilities will be formally extended to that of defence coach and skills coach, and he will retain responsibility for the kicking game at Racing.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/ogara-to-extend-paris-stay-267627.html

A recent interview with him here ... some interesting insights into the French psychology on defence!

http://www.thescore.ie/ronan-ogara-racing-metro-coach-1620892-Aug2014/

Neutralee wrote:

ROG extended his contract with Racing earlier in the year. He is now Defensive Coach and Skills coach. I think he is there under his own steam, to be fair. He was never brought in as a security blanket for Sexton. Mike Phillips was fired by his last French club, so it was probably down to ROG that he got the job in the first place. I'd imagine Jaws is happy to renew his parnership with Casey Laulala more than anything else. I doubt if Toulon would be in a rush to sign him. None of the Welsh players have stood out with Racing, so I wouldn't be surprised if Lydiate went home as he seems to be a bit of a homebird anyway.

edit: O'Gara's contract is extended to summer 2016 as Skills, Defence and Kicking coach.

If either of those are true I will actually be amazed! ROG couldn't defend the cookie jar from his kids, and by all reports Racing were lining Phillips up for months, and had an original offer in place for the following season anyway, getting sacked hastened that didn't it? [/quote]

He couldn't tackle very well because of poor technique and being undersized,that's very different from understanding and implementing a defensive system for a team to work with.I have no idea how qualified he is to be a defense coach but i doubt Racing just threw him in there without understanding just what he could bring to the role.

That is amazing, I stand corrected. I love the way he takes responsibilities for defence and skills coach and in the next paragraph explains the damage the big 40 point loss to montpellier caused.

ROG was a very good player, but his weaknesses were his defencive ability and his skill set, he also self proclaimed how inexperienced a couch he was, and how difficult it has been to learn on the job.

Why do pro clubs still do this, employ former players who have spent no time whatsoever crafting a coaching trade and throw them into pro clubs?

Racing have spent a fortune on world class players and are still pretty unsuccesfull in every comp they play in, this kind of thinking may attribute to that.

Neutralee wrote:That is amazing, I stand corrected. I love the way he takes responsibilities for defence and skills coach and in the next paragraph explains the damage the big 40 point loss to montpellier caused.

ROG was a very good player, but his weaknesses were his defencive ability and his skill set, he also self proclaimed how inexperienced a couch he was, and how difficult it has been to learn on the job.

Why do pro clubs still do this, employ former players who have spent no time whatsoever crafting a coaching trade and throw them into pro clubs?

Racing have spent a fortune on world class players and are still pretty unsuccesfull in every comp they play in, this kind of thinking may attribute to that.

My guess is that we'll see this less and less as the years move on but right now the players that are retiring are the first set of players to have ever had an entire career as a professional rugby player.I think this does give them an insight that some older coaches can't replicate,like everything else it is a risk and will work well with some people and not so well with others.

I really depends on the individual in question, but it's a pretty good rule of thumb in most sports that the very best and most talented players don't become the best coaches.

I think the bigger issue is time. It takes time and experience to learn the skills of coaching players, in whatever capacity, and all too often players are "fast tracked" into a role because of their playing expoits (e.g. Martin Johnson) without enough experience in the new role they'll fulfill.

We've seen this happen a fair bit in Scotland. Gregor Townsend was promoted ludicrously quickly, ahead of a number of applicants (some also with playing experience) which far more coaching experience (albeit in most cases at club level rather than pro). Alan Tait was another who seems to be getting plumb roles before having done an appropriate apprenticeship.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Neutralee wrote:That is amazing, I stand corrected. I love the way he takes responsibilities for defence and skills coach and in the next paragraph explains the damage the big 40 point loss to montpellier caused.

ROG was a very good player, but his weaknesses were his defencive ability and his skill set, he also self proclaimed how inexperienced a couch he was, and how difficult it has been to learn on the job.

Why do pro clubs still do this, employ former players who have spent no time whatsoever crafting a coaching trade and throw them into pro clubs?

Racing have spent a fortune on world class players and are still pretty unsuccesfull in every comp they play in, this kind of thinking may attribute to that.

My guess is that we'll see this less and less as the years move on but right now the players that are retiring are the first set of players to have ever had an entire career as a professional rugby player.I think this does give them an insight that some older coaches can't replicate,like everything else it is a risk and will work well with some people and not so well with others.

I quite like the idea of coach academies starting, I've heard of a few players In Wales and England who are not quite international standard, and don't have the pressure and constraints that come with that starting to coach as a view to post retirement careers. A few being in their early 20's still.

Someone makes a good point that just because ROG couldn't tackle didn't mean he couldn't organise a defencive system, but there is so much more to defence than deciding on rush or drift. It begins ball in hand, it effects every phacet of play that ROG could just not understand from 10 alone.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I really depends on the individual in question, but it's a pretty good rule of thumb in most sports that the very best and most talented players don't become the best coaches.

I think the bigger issue is time. It takes time and experience to learn the skills of coaching players, in whatever capacity, and all too often players are "fast tracked" into a role because of their playing expoits (e.g. Martin Johnson) without enough experience in the new role they'll fulfill.

We've seen this happen a fair bit in Scotland. Gregor Townsend was promoted ludicrously quickly, ahead of a number of applicants (some also with playing experience) which far more coaching experience (albeit in most cases at club level rather than pro). Alan Tait was another who seems to be getting plumb roles before having done an appropriate apprenticeship.

I'm going to go out on a limb and mention Nick De Luca, I was in a few CPD courses in Edinburgh recently where he was 'guest' but was also learning. He spent most of his time explaining how he loves defence and prefers bowling players over than scoring tries. His knowledge of any sort of system was poor, and he didn't have an innovative bone in his body. IT seemed like he was being fast tracked for pro coaching, if he does I feel for Scottish rugby.

Neutralee wrote:That is amazing, I stand corrected. I love the way he takes responsibilities for defence and skills coach and in the next paragraph explains the damage the big 40 point loss to montpellier caused.

ROG was a very good player, but his weaknesses were his defencive ability and his skill set, he also self proclaimed how inexperienced a couch he was, and how difficult it has been to learn on the job.

Why do pro clubs still do this, employ former players who have spent no time whatsoever crafting a coaching trade and throw them into pro clubs?

Racing have spent a fortune on world class players and are still pretty unsuccesfull in every comp they play in, this kind of thinking may attribute to that.

What are you talking about? Racing beat Montpellier (away) last week

ROG went to Racing as a kicking coach - he is working his way up (fairly fast). He obviously is a good pupil.

Sin é wrote:

Neutralee wrote:That is amazing, I stand corrected. I love the way he takes responsibilities for defence and skills coach and in the next paragraph explains the damage the big 40 point loss to montpellier caused.

ROG was a very good player, but his weaknesses were his defencive ability and his skill set, he also self proclaimed how inexperienced a couch he was, and how difficult it has been to learn on the job.

Why do pro clubs still do this, employ former players who have spent no time whatsoever crafting a coaching trade and throw them into pro clubs?

Racing have spent a fortune on world class players and are still pretty unsuccesfull in every comp they play in, this kind of thinking may attribute to that.

What are you talking about? Racing beat Montpellier (away) last week

ROG went to Racing as a kicking coach - he is working his way up (fairly fast). He obviously is a good pupil.

In the article he talks about recent responsibilities of learning to coach, and defence work, then goes on to explain conceding 44 to montpellier all but ended Racings season.

Neutralee wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Neutralee wrote:That is amazing, I stand corrected. I love the way he takes responsibilities for defence and skills coach and in the next paragraph explains the damage the big 40 point loss to montpellier caused.

ROG was a very good player, but his weaknesses were his defencive ability and his skill set, he also self proclaimed how inexperienced a couch he was, and how difficult it has been to learn on the job.

Why do pro clubs still do this, employ former players who have spent no time whatsoever crafting a coaching trade and throw them into pro clubs?

Racing have spent a fortune on world class players and are still pretty unsuccesfull in every comp they play in, this kind of thinking may attribute to that.

My guess is that we'll see this less and less as the years move on but right now the players that are retiring are the first set of players to have ever had an entire career as a professional rugby player.I think this does give them an insight that some older coaches can't replicate,like everything else it is a risk and will work well with some people and not so well with others.

I quite like the idea of coach academies starting, I've heard of a few players In Wales and England who are not quite international standard, and don't have the pressure and constraints that come with that starting to coach as a view to post retirement careers. A few being in their early 20's still.

Someone makes a good point that just because ROG couldn't tackle didn't mean he couldn't organise a defencive system, but there is so much more to defence than deciding on rush or drift. It begins ball in hand, it effects every phacet of play that ROG could just not understand from 10 alone.

That's an interesting idea,in Ireland we don't have anything like that but some of the players coach at club level while playing,Bernard Jackman was Clontarf coach when he played with us and Séan O'Brien coaches Tullow.Those are two that spring to mind but I'm sure there are more.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Neutralee wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Neutralee wrote:That is amazing, I stand corrected. I love the way he takes responsibilities for defence and skills coach and in the next paragraph explains the damage the big 40 point loss to montpellier caused.

ROG was a very good player, but his weaknesses were his defencive ability and his skill set, he also self proclaimed how inexperienced a couch he was, and how difficult it has been to learn on the job.

Why do pro clubs still do this, employ former players who have spent no time whatsoever crafting a coaching trade and throw them into pro clubs?

Racing have spent a fortune on world class players and are still pretty unsuccesfull in every comp they play in, this kind of thinking may attribute to that.

My guess is that we'll see this less and less as the years move on but right now the players that are retiring are the first set of players to have ever had an entire career as a professional rugby player.I think this does give them an insight that some older coaches can't replicate,like everything else it is a risk and will work well with some people and not so well with others.

I quite like the idea of coach academies starting, I've heard of a few players In Wales and England who are not quite international standard, and don't have the pressure and constraints that come with that starting to coach as a view to post retirement careers. A few being in their early 20's still.

Someone makes a good point that just because ROG couldn't tackle didn't mean he couldn't organise a defencive system, but there is so much more to defence than deciding on rush or drift. It begins ball in hand, it effects every phacet of play that ROG could just not understand from 10 alone.

That's an interesting idea,in Ireland we don't have anything like that but some of the players coach at club level while playing,Bernard Jackman was Clontarf coach when he played with us and Séan O'Brien coaches Tullow.Those are two that spring to mind but I'm sure there are more.

Jackman was pretty good too, worked as a RDO at UDC while getting his masters. Worked with him a bit, very knowledgable guy, commands respect, now at Grenoble isn't he?

Neutralee wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Neutralee wrote:That is amazing, I stand corrected. I love the way he takes responsibilities for defence and skills coach and in the next paragraph explains the damage the big 40 point loss to montpellier caused.

ROG was a very good player, but his weaknesses were his defencive ability and his skill set, he also self proclaimed how inexperienced a couch he was, and how difficult it has been to learn on the job.

Why do pro clubs still do this, employ former players who have spent no time whatsoever crafting a coaching trade and throw them into pro clubs?

Racing have spent a fortune on world class players and are still pretty unsuccesfull in every comp they play in, this kind of thinking may attribute to that.

What are you talking about? Racing beat Montpellier (away) last week

ROG went to Racing as a kicking coach - he is working his way up (fairly fast). He obviously is a good pupil.

In the article he talks about recent responsibilities of learning to coach, and defence work, then goes on to explain conceding 44 to montpellier all but ended Racings season.

It didn't end it though because Racing made the playoffs (losing to Toulon).

Canterbury Rugby (the region) run an International Player and Coaching High Performance Unit. Quite a few coaches go there (including Bernard Jackman I think).

http://www.ihpu.canterburyrugby.co.nz/

I see a testimonial from: Iain Monaghan
Elite Development Coach
Glasgow Warriors
Visited in 2011

In fact, I think the Scots send a lot of guys over there and bring over guys like Wayne Smith as well.

Neutralee wrote:I'm going to go out on a limb and mention Nick De Luca, I was in a few CPD courses in Edinburgh recently where he was 'guest' but was also learning. He spent most of his time explaining how he loves defence and prefers bowling players over than scoring tries. His knowledge of any sort of system was poor, and he didn't have an innovative bone in his body. It seemed like he was being fast tracked for pro coaching, if he does I feel for Scottish rugby.

You will not be alone in that sentiment!

NDL is a talented player, but he really struggled with the pressure of international rugby, and was capable of doing the daftest things on the pitch.

Then again, Toonie did utterly daft (and brilliant) things in a Scotland jersey and I didn't think he'd be able to translate that into a coaching role either, and he is currently doing a good job carrying on Sean Lineen's fine work at Glasgow.