Colonial View of the RFU? (erm, or should Fiji join Super Rugby)

First topic message reminder :

"When you consider how England is blatantly using its power to bolster the national side with players not remotely English, it is time for rugby to start levelling the playing field."

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10745534

"There is a disturbing atmosphere of exploitation, perhaps linked to colonial ways, about the way rugby is run."

Interesting thoughts again from Chris Rattue.

aucklandlaurie wrote: MBTGOG

If you ever get the chance to come to Auckland, go to a club rugby game in either the Auckland North Harbour or counties Manukau unions and you will see the full impact as to how involved the Polynesians are entrenched in Auckland rugby already, at all levels,Players,coaches,club admiistrators,referees.etc. these people have a genuine concern for rugby in there ancestrol islands.
These players most definitely should be allowed to play for two countries.
Perhaps you may not realise it but Auckland is the largest Polynesian city in the World...

Thats actually an excellent point Laurie.
Wander around any rugby ground in NZ (esp Auck) on a Saturday arvo
and you'll see vast numbers of Polynesians playing in all grades. From premier to
golden oldies.
One would presume that not many of these guys have been poached from overseas!
In a similar vein its interesting to note the number of Tongan and Fijian players
who come to NZ to play for 2nd/3rd division sides. These are guys who are not going to
make their national teams but provide excellent service for some of the smaller unions.
This provides them with an opportunity to make a living overseas that wouldnt
be available to them in Europe (NH) or in the islands.
I would think if you asked the PI rugby unions if NZ helped or hindered their
rugby they would overwhelmingly say it helps.
Im sure i heard Peter Fatialofa say this a few months ago on the IRB show
World of Rugby. (Some weeks this is my only link with Rugby!!!)

NZRFU wanted players that had played as All Blacks,but were no longer selected for whatever reason to be allowed to play for Pacific island sides.
AS they once did,GUESS which countries are blocking it?

emack2 wrote:NZRFU wanted players that had played as All Blacks,but were no longer selected for whatever reason to be allowed to play for Pacific island sides.
AS they once did,GUESS which countries are blocking it?

It's not the RFU as they voted in favour of that proposal

emack2 wrote:NZRFU wanted players that had played as All Blacks,but were no longer selected for whatever reason to be allowed to play for Pacific island sides.
AS they once did,GUESS which countries are blocking it?

The Pacific Rimmers as they believe this will just mean more players choosing to try to get all black caps knowing if they dont make it long term they can always come back to the smaller unions. Theyd ratehr jkeep their best players for themselves.

Reality is though if your born,or travelled at an early age to Nz and were
educated in Rugby by the NZ system.IF you had the chance to be an All Black how many would turn it down?.

emack2 wrote:NZRFU wanted players that had played as All Blacks,but were no longer selected for whatever reason to be allowed to play for Pacific island sides.
AS they once did,GUESS which countries are blocking it?

Which countries are blocking it ?

emack2 wrote:Reality is though if your born,or travelled at an early age to Nz and were
educated in Rugby by the NZ system.IF you had the chance to be an All Black how many would turn it down?.

Flutey and Waldrom for sure

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

emack2 wrote:NZRFU wanted players that had played as All Blacks,but were no longer selected for whatever reason to be allowed to play for Pacific island sides.
AS they once did,GUESS which countries are blocking it?

The Pacific Rimmers as they believe this will just mean more players choosing to try to get all black caps knowing if they dont make it long term they can always come back to the smaller unions. Theyd ratehr jkeep their best players for themselves.

My understanding is the 2009/2010 proposals (I think 3 or 4 versions were put to the IRB) were instigated by Samoa. NZ lobbied on their behalf, and I think Australia and England may have got in behind them. My understanding is that the Celtic nations were central in opposing it.

My feeling is that the the NZRFU supported it because they have nothing to lose. Island national teams aren't likely to heavily impact on the AB's. Tightening up the restrictions actually benfits the AB's more.

I think the real issue for the islands teams, and most seconnd tier nations, is getting enough quality international games and getting quality access to their players.

blackcanelion wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

emack2 wrote:NZRFU wanted players that had played as All Blacks,but were no longer selected for whatever reason to be allowed to play for Pacific island sides.
AS they once did,GUESS which countries are blocking it?

The Pacific Rimmers as they believe this will just mean more players choosing to try to get all black caps knowing if they dont make it long term they can always come back to the smaller unions. Theyd ratehr jkeep their best players for themselves.

My understanding is the 2009/2010 proposals (I think 3 or 4 versions were put to the IRB) were instigated by Samoa. NZ lobbied on their behalf, and I think Australia and England may have got in behind them. My understanding is that the Celtic nations were central in opposing it.

My feeling is that the the NZRFU supported it because they have nothing to lose. Island national teams aren't likely to heavily impact on the AB's. Tightening up the restrictions actually benfits the AB's more.

I think the real issue for the islands teams, and most seconnd tier nations, is getting enough quality international games and getting quality access to their players.

SO in essence NZ vote for it because they get the PI's at their best. They are then happy to discard them and allow them to play for THEIR OWN COUNTRY! Arrogance or what! Why don't NZ insist that ALL PI players born and educated in NZ go play for their own country?? I mean after all if NZ are so good they do not really need these lads do they????

welshjohn369 wrote:

blackcanelion wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

emack2 wrote:NZRFU wanted players that had played as All Blacks,but were no longer selected for whatever reason to be allowed to play for Pacific island sides.
AS they once did,GUESS which countries are blocking it?

The Pacific Rimmers as they believe this will just mean more players choosing to try to get all black caps knowing if they dont make it long term they can always come back to the smaller unions. Theyd ratehr jkeep their best players for themselves.

My understanding is the 2009/2010 proposals (I think 3 or 4 versions were put to the IRB) were instigated by Samoa. NZ lobbied on their behalf, and I think Australia and England may have got in behind them. My understanding is that the Celtic nations were central in opposing it.

My feeling is that the the NZRFU supported it because they have nothing to lose. Island national teams aren't likely to heavily impact on the AB's. Tightening up the restrictions actually benfits the AB's more.

I think the real issue for the islands teams, and most seconnd tier nations, is getting enough quality international games and getting quality access to their players.

SO in essence NZ vote for it because they get the PI's at their best. They are then happy to discard them and allow them to play for THEIR OWN COUNTRY! Arrogance or what! Why don't NZ insist that ALL PI players born and educated in NZ go play for their own country?? I mean after all if NZ are so good they do not really need these lads do they????

Because that would be stupid and offensive

emack2 wrote:Reality is though if your born,or travelled at an early age to Nz and were
educated in Rugby by the NZ system.IF you had the chance to be an All Black how many would turn it down?.

I would. I assume if I'm good enough for NZ I'd be good enough for England, and I'd rather play for them.

welshjohn369 wrote:

blackcanelion wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

emack2 wrote:NZRFU wanted players that had played as All Blacks,but were no longer selected for whatever reason to be allowed to play for Pacific island sides.
AS they once did,GUESS which countries are blocking it?

The Pacific Rimmers as they believe this will just mean more players choosing to try to get all black caps knowing if they dont make it long term they can always come back to the smaller unions. Theyd ratehr jkeep their best players for themselves.

My understanding is the 2009/2010 proposals (I think 3 or 4 versions were put to the IRB) were instigated by Samoa. NZ lobbied on their behalf, and I think Australia and England may have got in behind them. My understanding is that the Celtic nations were central in opposing it.

My feeling is that the the NZRFU supported it because they have nothing to lose. Island national teams aren't likely to heavily impact on the AB's. Tightening up the restrictions actually benfits the AB's more.

I think the real issue for the islands teams, and most seconnd tier nations, is getting enough quality international games and getting quality access to their players.

SO in essence NZ vote for it because they get the PI's at their best. They are then happy to discard them and allow them to play for THEIR OWN COUNTRY! Arrogance or what! Why don't NZ insist that ALL PI players born and educated in NZ go play for their own country?? I mean after all if NZ are so good they do not really need these lads do they????

Not at all. Not sure where you are coming from. As I understand it was initiated by Samoa. Almost all the players involved have been either born in NZ, or grew up here from a young age. They have dual nationality in rugby terms. In an ideal world, for Samoa, they would choose to play for Samoa. However, most will choose the AB's. It's worth remembering that the vaste majority of the current Samoan squad was born or grew up in NZ. To say they have to play for Samoa is like stating Robert Sidoli and Lawrence Dellaglio have to play for Italy.

If it was my choice I'd make the qualification rules much harder, as I've said above. Having said that I'm not sure the current situation actually encourages poaching of PI teams by NZ. I think Sivivatu and Luaki are the last two players to play for the AB's who came over as teenagers on scholorships. They've both been around for a while. To be honest, NZ has it's own problems with the loss of talented youngsters to Australian rugby league and union schools.

blackcanelion wrote:

welshjohn369 wrote:

blackcanelion wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

emack2 wrote:NZRFU wanted players that had played as All Blacks,but were no longer selected for whatever reason to be allowed to play for Pacific island sides.
AS they once did,GUESS which countries are blocking it?

The Pacific Rimmers as they believe this will just mean more players choosing to try to get all black caps knowing if they dont make it long term they can always come back to the smaller unions. Theyd ratehr jkeep their best players for themselves.

My understanding is the 2009/2010 proposals (I think 3 or 4 versions were put to the IRB) were instigated by Samoa. NZ lobbied on their behalf, and I think Australia and England may have got in behind them. My understanding is that the Celtic nations were central in opposing it.

My feeling is that the the NZRFU supported it because they have nothing to lose. Island national teams aren't likely to heavily impact on the AB's. Tightening up the restrictions actually benfits the AB's more.

I think the real issue for the islands teams, and most seconnd tier nations, is getting enough quality international games and getting quality access to their players.

SO in essence NZ vote for it because they get the PI's at their best. They are then happy to discard them and allow them to play for THEIR OWN COUNTRY! Arrogance or what! Why don't NZ insist that ALL PI players born and educated in NZ go play for their own country?? I mean after all if NZ are so good they do not really need these lads do they????

Not at all. Not sure where you are coming from. As I understand it was initiated by Samoa. Almost all the players involved have been either born in NZ, or grew up here from a young age. They have dual nationality in rugby terms. In an ideal world, for Samoa, they would choose to play for Samoa. However, most will choose the AB's. It's worth remembering that the vaste majority of the current Samoan squad was born or grew up in NZ. To say they have to play for Samoa is like stating Robert Sidoli and Lawrence Dellaglio have to play for Italy.

If it was my choice I'd make the qualification rules much harder, as I've said above. Having said that I'm not sure the current situation actually encourages poaching of PI teams by NZ. I think Sivivatu and Luaki are the last two players to play for the AB's who came over as teenagers on scholorships. They've both been around for a while. To be honest, NZ has it's own problems with the loss of talented youngsters to Australian rugby league and union schools.

The loss to northern hemisphere clubs is more of an issue at the moment. We have experienced guys who are not feeding back into the closed system. This will be to the detriment of NZ rugby much more so than the up-and-comers leaving IMO.

TGG ... do you think that the experienced but jaded stars of NZ rugby taking holidays up North is to the dertiment of the game in NZ or does it gove the youngsters a chance to play super rugby and get early caps in the all blacks. When the older ones come back pre world cup they ahve to be sharp and with it to reclaim their spots. It does mean competition for swquad places and that unlike England post 2003 the top players cant just switch off and sit on their national side spots.

Another one guys... when will this poaching of PI talent stop?

Fijian Star Signs Up With Manawatu

aucklandlaurie wrote: MBTGOG

If you ever get the chance to come to Auckland, go to a club rugby game in either the Auckland North Harbour or counties Manukau unions and you will see the full impact as to how involved the Polynesians are entrenched in Auckland rugby already, at all levels,Players,coaches,club admiistrators,referees.etc. these people have a genuine concern for rugby in there ancestrol islands.
These players most definitely should be allowed to play for two countries.
Perhaps you may not realise it but Auckland is the largest Polynesian city in the World...

I am well aware of those things.

They are allowed to choose between two countries.

Linebreaker wrote:Another one guys... when will this poaching of PI talent stop?

Fijian Star Signs Up With Manawatu

Nice to see the mods are indulging in WUMs then.

Thanks GG.

I know you are one of the few on here who can see the lighter side of things.

I did report you over it. Please see you give yourself a good telling off

Can somebody enlighten me as to how Frank Bunce, Stephen Bachop and Michael Jones managed to represent both (Western) Samoa and New Zealand at senior level?

Who did the poaching here?

Another pointless exercise GG I'm afraid.

Save them for when you really need them would be my best advice.

tigerleghorn wrote:Can somebody enlighten me as to how Frank Bunce, Stephen Bachop and Michael Jones managed to represent both (Western) Samoa and New Zealand at senior level?

Who did the poaching here?

The rules were different back then.

I don't know about Jones, but Bunce and Bachop got asked if they fancied a boozy rugby playing holiday in Europe. Bunce is Nuiean - he didn't even have a fake Samoan granny. From memory, both were struggling to get starts for their provinces at the time.

Bachop played for Samoa in 1991, NZ 1993-94 and Samoa 1999
Graeme Bachop played for NZ 1988-1991, 1995 (he had a "job" for a company in Japan 1992-94) and Japan in RWC99.

Matt Cooper and Frano Botica turned out in RWC qualifiers for Croatia in the late 90s too ...

Linebreaker wrote:Another one guys... when will this poaching of PI talent stop?

Fijian Star Signs Up With Manawatu

Well to be honest if these kids stayed in the Islands would they ever reach their potential?
I'm sure the World class profeissonal academies in Apia, Nukuʻalofa and Suva will bring these monsters on to be better than Lomu!

The truth in New Zealand have done a lot for Islands rugby, in the amateur days New Zealand used to pick up the tab a lot for Island teams, and give them a lot of help.
The problem is the Islands are fairly poor countries and job oppertunities are in New Zealand, so Fijian and Samoan children have parents but are born and raised in New Zealand.
It's not unlike England and the Celts, you only have to look at the current Welsh squad to see how many of them have 2 Welsh parents but were born in England due to their parents working there.
The difference is the Celtic National have more status because of the 6 Nations and New Zealand have never made the attempt to make a Pacific tournament to help the Islands. If New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, Tonga, Samoa and Fiji played in their own 6 Nations then it's possible the Island players wouldn't feel the need to play for New Zealand.

Jeez what are us Irish missing out on. Apart from Ricky Strauss who will become IQ next year we don't have much history is using the residency or granny rules (ok the soccer team make up for that) to get players in. Maybe it's the weather or again maybe because we were shoyte for so long. We did get that blond Aussie Brian Smith in about 20 years ago, played a couple of games, was crap ands then scarpered off somewhere. We did have that Saffer with the very irish name Dion O'Cuiniegan for a while but at least I think his da was irish. Apart from that zippo.

God there must be some big PI props with a drop of Irish blood we could bring in instead of having to depend on Tony Buckley!

I should imagine that one of the major concerns for the Celtic nations is that any "interchnagabilty" between one country and another, combined with the residency rule would mean that young Celtic talent could go and play in the Jeff then turn out for England after a few years then decide to go back to their "home" country after they had had their go at playing for England.
And of course yes there is an element of self interest in that the Celtic countries do not find it their interest to promote the PI sides who they may have to play in World Cups by allowing ex-ABs to play for them.
Bottom line is that the qualfication rules need to be sorted to:
1 - You play for the country you were born in
2 - You play for the country your parents were born in
3 - You play for the country you live in (assuming you haven't played for another country) and have llived there for 10 years.
SORTED

Irish Londoner wrote:I should imagine that one of the major concerns for the Celtic nations is that any "interchnagabilty" between one country and another, combined with the residency rule would mean that young Celtic talent could go and play in the Jeff then turn out for England after a few years then decide to go back to their "home" country after they had had their go at playing for England.

I'm not sure that's a real concern to be honest, the Celts have had very few geniune "traitors" in rugby.
Personally I don't think they believe it's fair to keep changing your nationality when it's convenient.

Stuart Barnes was born in England, but moved to Wales at a young age (I think), and went to Bassaleg School, Newport, he got capped and captained Wales School boys, before progressing to Newport RFC. He left there and went to Bristol. I'm not sure if his parents were Welsh and / or English though.

Dewi Morris is probably the most famous Welsh one and was badly disliked in Wales for a period. From what I can remember he asked about playing for Wales only to be told he wasn't fit to lace Robert Jones's boots and had no chance while playing club rugby in England.
After Wales dominance in the 70's, English rugby was considered inferiour and it wasn't until the 90's that England started to batter Wales regularly.
So opted for England instead on residency. From what I remember he sang the Welsh national anthem while playing for England at Cardiff, which I don't think went down to well.
Looking back it was all rather childish really, if he wasn't needed by Wales, then Wales should of let him go peacefully to England.

Nigel Redman was born in Wales but grew up in England and played for them.

John Callard pretty much mirrored Stuart Barnes. Born in England, grew up in Newport, also went to Bassaleg School, Newport, then went back to Bath and played for England, not sure about his parentage either.

MBTGOG
There is a difference between "Playing for two countries" and "choose between two countries"...

aucklandlaurie wrote:MBTGOG
There is a difference between "Playing for two countries" and "choose between two countries"...

I know that seeing as that is the point I am trying to make.

MBTGOG
But do you not consider the issue is serious enough,that one possibility that should be considered is that the Polynesians be given the option to go back and play for their island(s) of origin if they have played for another country previously?
As a side note do we really want all of Samoa to be referred to as the "Football Islands " by the NFL?

Good point about the NFL, laurie.

Also, who knows... USA Rugby, Japan and maybe even China (down the track) will also have eyes on some NZ 'tested' players.

aucklandlaurie wrote:MBTGOG
But do you not consider the issue is serious enough,that one possibility that should be considered is that the Polynesians be given the option to go back and play for their island(s) of origin if they have played for another country previously?
As a side note do we really want all of Samoa to be referred to as the "Football Islands " by the NFL?

I don't laurie. I believe this is probably the biggest decision to be made in rugby by a player and they should stick with it. Anyway, it's not as if Ireland wouldn't benefit from it. There's quite a few English guys who could play for us.

I would also like to mention that I personally am eligible to play for three countries, two I feel great affinity to but I still believe that if I had a choice to make, I'd make it and have to stick with it.

And that is the very mindset that is being suggested should be banished.
For the benefit of the world cup tournament.
For the benefit of the pursuing further growth,globaly in rugby.
For the benefit of the Polynesian (and Fiji) rugby nations which are vulnerable.

I must say i have'nt heard of many accusations of Irish or English players being poached...

And why should that mindset be banished? I'm in a similar situation to these guys yet I believe they should have to live with the consequences of their decision.

I think it's quite sickening that people should believe that PI's can play for NZ and then go back to their respective Island and play for them. Most would just want to play for their country, it's a feeling, a thing of passion and not $$$$$$.

My son's were born in NZ but no way on God's earth should they make the standard will they play for NZ, it will be Wales and Wales only. Ohh that's despit the fact they are trained and coached by the NZ school but that does not make it a God given right...does it:)

Mbtgog
I dont know what country you come from, but I guess that its somewhere in the UK,which if that is the case then you come from a country that has power at the IRB,the pacific Island countries dont.
I can see reasons why allowances should be made to develop and assist the game in these nations that dont compete in a 6 or tri nations.and unles someone stands up for them and makes those allowances for them ,then a risk is that rugby could lose the massive contribution that they already make to International rugby

Welshjohn
I wish the best for your sons,I truely do.

aucklandlaurie wrote:Mbtgog
I dont know what country you come from, but I guess that its somewhere in the UK,which if that is the case then you come from a country that has power at the IRB,the pacific Island countries dont.
I can see reasons why allowances should be made to develop and assist the game in these nations that dont compete in a 6 or tri nations.and unles someone stands up for them and makes those allowances for them ,then a risk is that rugby could lose the massive contribution that they already make to International rugby

So the answer is to pump the dollars into the PI's not take the players away from their country.

We all know how poor some of these Islands are and funding RU is one of the lastthings on their respective governments list. It is up to the IRB and the other nations to ensure that the PI get the $$$$ to kep their players within whether it be RU or RL.

aucklandlaurie wrote:Mbtgog
I dont know what country you come from, but I guess that its somewhere in the UK,which if that is the case then you come from a country that has power at the IRB,the pacific Island countries dont.
I can see reasons why allowances should be made to develop and assist the game in these nations that dont compete in a 6 or tri nations.and unles someone stands up for them and makes those allowances for them ,then a risk is that rugby could lose the massive contribution that they already make to International rugby

Why should allowances be made for them?

They are already in an annual competition anyway. They are in the Pacific Nations Cup, which is growing more and more each year.

Mbtgog
i am starting to think that you have some aversion to these nations improving and breaking into the single digits of the IRB rankings.....
These countries have alot to offer rugby, I would hasard a guess that nearly half the countries at this years WC have at least one Polynesian in their ranks,.I gather you dont rate them so see no reason why any allowances/dispensations should be made....

aucklandlaurie wrote:Mbtgog
i am starting to think that you have some aversion to these nations improving and breaking into the single digits of the IRB rankings.....
These countries have alot to offer rugby, I would hasard a guess that nearly half the countries at this years WC have at least one Polynesian in their ranks,.I gather you dont rate them so see no reason why any allowances/dispensations should be made....

No! What you mean is these players have a lot to offer New Zealand. Simple.

I have often wondered whether it would work to reduce the SANZAR super rugby teams to four each (12 in total) and allow Fiji, Tonga, Samoa to play at SUper Rugby level making up the other 3 teams in the Super 15. Then play a combined Pacific Islands team at test level in a SH 5-nations (with Argentina). If the PI's played as a single team, on a regular basis, they would become quite a formidable force.

Mr Fishpaste wrote:I have often wondered whether it would work to reduce the SANZAR super rugby teams to four each (12 in total) and allow Fiji, Tonga, Samoa to play at SUper Rugby level making up the other 3 teams in the Super 15. Then play a combined Pacific Islands team at test level in a SH 5-nations (with Argentina). If the PI's played as a single team, on a regular basis, they would become quite a formidable force.

Like the Lion's in essence.

These Island's need to be individual forces as well, unfortunately they are poor areas that depend on tourism to keep their economy going. The closest mainlands are NZ and Aussie and they suck the life out of the PI's for the talent they produce.

If they played as 'individual forces' in Super Rugby these teams would get more game time than they do at the moment

You'd think that NZ would do these islands a favour wouldn't you, you know pop over and play one of them in a test each year.

Take a look at how many times NZ have botherd. Not many seeing what rich desserts they get.

There are no better race than the Samoans at contact sports ie Union,league or American Football............

aucklandlaurie wrote:Mbtgog
i am starting to think that you have some aversion to these nations improving and breaking into the single digits of the IRB rankings.....
These countries have alot to offer rugby, I would hasard a guess that nearly half the countries at this years WC have at least one Polynesian in their ranks,.I gather you dont rate them so see no reason why any allowances/dispensations should be made....

Then you've got me wrong. I feel that you should be able to play 7s for one country and then play for another afterwards but not two separate Senior Test sides.

It wouldn't have anything to do with the Celtic nations forming a voting bloc that stops the Island nations gaining full independent standing on the IRB's inner circle"council" would it ???????

aucklandlaurie wrote: It wouldn't have anything to do with the Celtic nations forming a voting bloc that stops the Island nations gaining full independent standing on the IRB's inner circle"council" would it ???????

You've gone off topic. Not what we were discussing.

The two issues are inextricably linked.
It is the selfishness of the IRB and celts which is forbidding players from representing a country when they have already played for another.The Scots, Irish and Welsh do not want the Samoans to be seen as their equals or stronger....

aucklandlaurie wrote: The two issues are inextricably linked.
It is the selfishness of the IRB and celts which is forbidding players from representing a country when they have already played for another.The Scots, Irish and Welsh do not want the Samoans to be seen as their equals or stronger....

Reel your neck it and stop trying to turn the thread to your favour.

It is NZ that are the main poachers of the PI nations and it was rife in days gone by as everyone knowns it's rife today as well.

The rest of you petty ranting ain't worth answering you petty little man.