Should Lawes be cited for knee on Ledesma?

by brennomac Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:44 pm

First topic message reminder :

Lot of discussion on Setanta - predictably not a mention on the rose-fixated ITV - on whether Lawes should (will) be cited for his "tackle" on Ledesma, Replays show pretty clearly that Lawes lead with his knee to Ledesma's head when Ledesma was on the ground and already out of play. There was no need to tackle Ledesma never m ind lead with the knee. Given how much the Argies love the English won't be surprised if he's cited. A

And please, my English friends, before you jump up in indignation go watch the playback.

by PJHolybloke Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:54 pm

Gibson wrote:Ah it was a lovely kiss PJ. In fairness. In the Man-Kiss Of The Cup so far, the Romanian coaches were so happy at scoring a try last night - it could have been a hand-job.

On the supposed gouging, I reckon MJ told Haskell to shut da phhok up and retract.

Good man MJ.

But, I reckon he should also openly apologise to the accused player and put this kind of thing in its place, at the start of the Greatest Tournament on Earth. Its rugby. Not soccer. Be a real man - not a wimp. Kiss (with tongues) and make up....

Just sayin...

Gibbo mo chara,

twas but a brief coming together of brothers-in-arms, nothing spectacular at all. If you want to pull off a real move you lean in to offer a peck on the cheek and when your opposite number makes to reciprocate you straighten up at the last second and slip your tongue in. Mrs Holybloke has binned me for that kind of trick before now and it's been for waaaaaaay more than 10 minutes. Know what I mean? The type of frost that replaces foreplay with a half-hour of begging?

Anyhoo, Haskell has nothing to apologise for, he spoke his mind in the middle and it was accidentally broadcast by ITV via Lawrence's mic, Haskell had clearly left it on the park and the only reason he mentioned it afterwards was due to ITV's initial faux pas, if anyone should apologise it should be ITV for not taking the precaution of a delayed broadcast.

--------------------

Gatts, seriously? No.

by Standulstermen Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:02 pm

Have to say although im not a fan of the Brand i dont think you can really hold anything against him for swearing. Hell you couldnt broadcast anything i say during a game and im only bloody watching

by Guest Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:05 pm

PJ - that post wasn't necessary, I've removed your post. Behave yourself please.

by Guest Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:07 pm

Stand, I've been reflecting on it and I guess not. Seemed like he was making a huge fuss about it but then I guess in the heat of the moment you aren't going to react rationally all the time.

by PJHolybloke Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:08 pm

Woof!

by Gatts Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:11 pm

I seriously don't know.

I don't think he should be - i'm a prop - but i do think one of these days such an act might land him in the brown and smelly

by PJHolybloke Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:35 pm

Gatts,

Fair enough, I think I misread one of your comments.

Fancy a beer?

mug

by PJHolybloke Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:38 pm

rugbydreamer wrote:PJ - that post wasn't necessary, I've removed your post. Behave yourself please.

Sorry, apology extended to Gatts.

:PJ rolls over for tummy tickle:

:sits up and begs:

:offers paw:

:wanders off and pees on random tree:

:falls asleep and farts:

by Guest Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:39 pm

ah I know I shouldn't bit.... laughing

by PJHolybloke Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:54 pm

rugbydreamer wrote:ah I know I shouldn't bit....

:big puppy eyes every time:

Hug

by robbo277 Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:27 pm

If you watch the game on ITV player from 45 minutes in you'll see both Courtney Lawes incidents within about 5 minutes.

Lawes on Tiesi: possibly a penalty, although he'd feel hard done by if he was pinged for that. Not worth a ban.

Lawes on Ledesma: watch it in real time. Look how quickly it happened. I think Lawes was rushing over to knock Ledesma into touch, saw that he had already been put into touch and tried (clumsily) to stop. I don't think it was a deliberate attempt to injure Ledesma.

With regards to Haskell, I've had fingers in my eyes before and started effing and jeffing at my opposite prop (who's fingers were in my eye). At the next scrum he apologised and said it was completely accidental. In the heat of the moment you react to these things, but with reflection you can find that it was completely accidental and react differently.

by Guest Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:30 pm

Robbo - I don't think it was a deliberate attempt either. I just think it was a bitreckless, and it is something I've seen punished before, but in this case I don't think anything will happen.

by robbo277 Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:31 pm

Reckless tackles can be punished, but I don't think we'll see anything more than a warning. Were it malicious, then he would be looking at a few weeks on the sidelines.

by robbo277 Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:34 pm

PS: The Haskell incident is about 1hr 42 minutes into the match on ITV Player. Couldn't really see what was going on though.

by tazfalklands Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:54 pm

If Lawes is cited for the sliding tackle then all the players who slide in knee first on try scorers need to join him in front of the citing commisioner, which from my veiwing seems to be about 50% of tries scored. Personally I have only ever seen 1 player/team disciplined for a deliberate foul on the player in the act of scoring a try. Happened in 6 nations between Wales England and Wales were awarded the try and then had penalty from the same point as the conversion.

The late tackle wasn't, my view was a player who was committed to a tackle not being able to pull out, I think that he commited to the tackle early and he probably did not have a hope of getting the player before the ball was kicked. I think the damage was because he came in from the blindside. chin

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:52 pm

Gibson wrote:Ah it was a lovely kiss PJ. In fairness. In the Man-Kiss Of The Cup so far, the Romanian coaches were so happy at scoring a try last night - it could have been a hand-job.

On the supposed gouging, I reckon MJ told Haskell to shut da phhok up and retract.

Good man MJ.

But, I reckon he should also openly apologise to the accused player and put this kind of thing in its place, at the start of the Greatest Tournament on Earth. Its rugby. Not soccer. Be a real man - not a wimp. Kiss (with tongues) and make up....

Just sayin...

If only Johnosn had worked for Ospreys eh.....

Theres no evidence that it took him to tell Haskel to retract though, the statement he put out was quite open and clear....i got a finger in the eye but on reflection I relaise that it was just accidental and no big deal ( please note hang and flog no such thing as accidental brigade). Haskells reaction s understandable having been the victim of a nasty incident in very simlar circunstances where his eyes were damaged by a player hooking their fingers into his sockets and pullng him out of a ruck ( trying to go for his scrum cap). The swearing is pretty normal and accepted on the field (its not soccer), Moody got picked up last season pointing out tho the ref that the opposition were "flipping" tired and taking a knee to slow the game down.

It would be a shame for Lawes if he did get a ban but only has himslef to blame for his headless chicken style of play. It would be a big problem for England takng out their only really mobile front 5 player.

by Gibson Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:08 am

Peter,
I hope Lawes does not get banned. Maybe a smack on the wrist. Its early days yet and I want, nay - the rugby World wants, the strongest teams possible out there.

As for Haskell, Yes ITV were right up his nose... so the medya should butt out! Back in the day.... there was more unseen, accepted - skullduggery going on. I dont want the game sanitised. But he should be aware that the media love and pickup, on this kinda shoite. They feed on it. No better man than MJ himself to explain this to him.

PJ,
Its really hard not to like you man. You are what my Ma calls a scamp. No wonder Mrs PJ loves yer antics and banter. It is essential in a boring, dull, PC-sanitised, corporate - World. kiss

What a weekend! Up the minnows! Love it. More!

by Standulstermen Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:59 am

citing confirmed for the knee on ledesma

by mpc28 Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:33 am

If Courtknee does get banned can he be replaced in the squad?

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:57 am

The Lawes sliding incident brings to mind Simon Shaw's knees-first sliding tackle on Fourie du Preez(?) in the last B&I Lions match of the '09 tour - anyhow he's been cited now, nothing for the tackle on Tiesi

by aucklandlaurie Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:05 am

usually down this way you get two weeks for leading with the knees.

by dummy_half Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:25 am

aucklandlaurie wrote: usually down this way you get two weeks for leading with the knees.

So even if the citing commission decide that it was reckless (I don't think there was deliberate intent, but it certainly could be construed as reckless play), Lawes is only likely to be unavailable for the two matches against the group minnows. Shouldn't really be that big a problem for us, especially as Deacon and Palmer looked a competent combination in the 6Ns.

by jbeadlesbigrighthand Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:47 am

aucklandlaurie wrote: usually down this way you get two weeks for leading with the knees.

I don't think it's that clear-cut. It's not like he slid in against a man who was already on the ground. He was coming across to cover in case the tackle was missed, and was going high. The tackle was then made, and Ledesma hit the floor. Lawes then switched to try to push him into touch, but was too late and smacked Ledesma with his knee.

I'll readily admit I'm not the most impartial observer, but it genuinely looked to me like Lawes was simply a bit of an oaf and didn't shift his weight in time, rather than that he went in leading with a knee to hurt the man.

by GunsGerms Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:52 am

It looked to me like it was intentional plus lawes has history of dirty play. He will get a short ban and deserves it.

by aucklandlaurie Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:57 am

Often the acid test is whether any attempt is made to try and take the knees out of the collision, the further he is out of the field of play makes it worse as it begs the question as to why the contact had to occur in the fisrt place, I have only seen it once.

by robbo277 Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:08 am

leinsterbaby wrote:It looked to me like it was intentional plus lawes has history of dirty play. He will get a short ban and deserves it.

History of dirty play? Anything in particular?

by Cymroglan Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:12 am

When does the citing commissioner meet during the world cup ?
And who are they

by **Biltong** Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:16 am

If you put on google search "Coutney Lawes cited" then you will find more than 8 pages of reports where he was cited.

23 minutes ago
2 hours ago
6 hours ago
24 hours ago

etc.

But it seems they are all for the same incident. Wink

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:23 am

robbo277 wrote:
leinsterbaby wrote:It looked to me like it was intentional plus lawes has history of dirty play. He will get a short ban and deserves it.

History of dirty play? Anything in particular?

Being English for a start.

By lock standards hes pretty clean, hes certainly not a POC style enforcer or a psycoptath like Attwood. Youi dont see him fighting or putting in cheap shots, in these incidents its reckless play which is down to him ruinning around liek a lunatic. His games based on workrate, not being a hard man.
Its an unfair comment.

I think the meeting is on saturday, no idea who the panel is but itll be an IRB kangaroo court. England will have ti plan assuming he will be banned, which means a slow front 5. He'd be due a rest anyway, so if it is just a couple of games he misses against the minnow sides it shouldnt make a significant difference to the world.

by brennomac Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:05 am

"Lawes, 22, is set to appear before a disciplinary hearing in Auckland, to be chaired by independent judicial officer Terry Willis, from Australia. The hearing will take place at the Vero Centre in Auckland at 2pm (NZ time) on Tuesday."

Telegraph think he'll get a ban of at least 3 weeks - effectively putting him out of rest of WC. If so bad news for England

by RubyGuby Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:08 am

Borthwick is on standby Yahoo

by Cymroglan Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:08 am

Hsa anybody found a link yet ?

by Cymroglan Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:10 am

England manager Martin Johnson said: "We will provide any information required and attend as requested."

Lawes is alleged to have breached law 10.4(a), which concerns "punching or striking (with the knee)".

The Northampton forward was cited by match disciplinary commissioner Murray Whyte for his challenge on Ledesma near the end of the first half of England's World Cup Pool B win

Sanctions for such a breach can range from three weeks to several months, though punishments are usually handed down in terms of matches at World Cups.

The hearing will be chaired by Terry Willis of Australia and the time and date of the hearing are due to be confirmed on Monday, UK time

by Dr Kenneth Noisewater Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:13 am

I read that the citing was issued after the 36 hour deadline. So will England keep that up their sleeve to rebuff any negative outcome?

"Justice for Courtney" wristbands at the ready...

by damage_13 Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:17 am

well viewed at slo mo it looks wince inducing. But the normal speed replay DOES look like he is pulling out of a tackle run.

Not sure what else he could've done, kept going and done a forward flip over the two players on the ground ..?

Maybe emulate a try swallow dive in an attempt to miss a collision?

by GunsGerms Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:21 am

Considering he is a kiwi he will probably claim it was an accident and get off without punishment. I suppose if Cooper can blatantly knee someone in the head and get away with it Lawes probably will too. It was dirty play though and deserving of a ban.

by Dr Kenneth Noisewater Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:23 am

leinsterbaby wrote:Considering he is a kiwi he will probably claim it was an accident and get off without punishment. I suppose if Cooper can blatantly knee someone in the head and get away with it Lawes probably will too. It was dirty play though and deserving of a ban.

Lawes was born in Hackney (London...).

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:30 am

leinsterbaby wrote:Considering he is a kiwi he will probably claim it was an accident and get off without punishment. I suppose if Cooper can blatantly knee someone in the head and get away with it Lawes probably will too. It was dirty play though and deserving of a ban.

Lawes a Kiwi? Don't blame us for everything mate Wink

by RubyGuby Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:33 am

Lawes is the non Kiwi I believe but easy mistake to make Yahoo

by Cowshot Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:48 am

Citings for foul play in NZ still have a bad taste. I have no faith in IRB impartiality after BOD. Anything but fairness can be expected.

That nasty bottom leakage Mealamu is still playing, isn't he? The only player in World Rugby I actually want to see stretchered off screaming, and the main reason I don't want NZ to win this WC. After the filthy Bar Steward has retired - fine. If Mealamu wears a WC winners medal it devalues the WC.

by englandglory4ever Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:53 am

If Lawes gets banned for this then the NZ pair who took BOD out should still be in jail.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:55 am

Yeah apparently its a 3-12 week ban for that offence, although they could halve it for mitigating circumstances/player record/contrition etc.

by yappysnap Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:58 am

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Yeah apparently its a 3-12 week ban for that offence, although they could halve it for mitigating circumstances/player record/contrition etc.

Is Lawes a good christian? That often helps down this neck of the woods.

by damage_13 Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:00 pm

all because of one player... a bit OTT really. I mean Bakkies, Jonno and quite a few others have been guilty of similar dubious/dirty play and no one else stated the WC being devalued because they won it.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:03 pm

Cowshot wrote:Citings for foul play in NZ still have a bad taste. I have no faith in IRB impartiality after BOD. Anything but fairness can be expected.

That nasty bottom leakage Mealamu is still playing, isn't he? The only player in World Rugby I actually want to see stretchered off screaming, and the main reason I don't want NZ to win this WC. After the filthy Bar Steward has retired - fine. If Mealamu wears a WC winners medal it devalues the WC.

Big of a leap here...the panel isnt anything to do with NZRU beyond them having the same representation as everyone else. Its an IRB event, IRB panel.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:09 pm

Cowshot wrote:Citings for foul play in NZ still have a bad taste. I have no faith in IRB impartiality after BOD. Anything but fairness can be expected.

That nasty bottom leakage Mealamu is still playing, isn't he? The only player in World Rugby I actually want to see stretchered off screaming, and the main reason I don't want NZ to win this WC. After the filthy Bar Steward has retired - fine. If Mealamu wears a WC winners medal it devalues the WC.

Phew, 2 incidents in a 10 year career makes you filthy? Granted he should have served a fair few weeks on the sidelines but for the incompetence of the judiciary, but that's stretching things a tad.

Botha, Burger and Grewcock all have RWC winners medals Whistle

by Cowshot Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:09 pm

all because of one player... a bit OTT really. I mean Bakkies, Jonno and quite a few others have been guilty of similar dubious/dirty play and no one else stated the WC being devalued because they won it.

They've all been punished. Umaga and Mealamu were not. If they had been, I would not bear this grudge.

by Cymroglan Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:14 pm

Question,,, If he does get a three week ban could England send him home and replace him with another player.
Or does the ban mean that England will have one less player in their squad ?

by Cowshot Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:14 pm

Neither Jonno or Bakkies have ever, to my knowledge, ganged up with a prop on the opposing captain, off the ball, picked him up, turned him upside down and then smashed him into the ground, breaking his shoulder, putting him out of the tour and depriving the Lions of their greatest attacking threat.

It has not been paid for.

by GunsGerms Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:17 pm

Kiwireddevil wrote:
leinsterbaby wrote:Considering he is a kiwi he will probably claim it was an accident and get off without punishment. I suppose if Cooper can blatantly knee someone in the head and get away with it Lawes probably will too. It was dirty play though and deserving of a ban.

Lawes a Kiwi? Don't blame us for everything mate

Sorry just presumed they were all kiwis.

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