Solheim Cup

First topic message reminder :

Bit of a rushed thread as with being busy this week completely forgot to write a proper thread.....

But to start am I the only one that thinks maybe the US should have named their opening pairing the othe way around as Wie/Kerr reads Weaker!! Just a thought

All,
Rosie Jones admitted in her interview that she shouldn't have put Kerr out twice Saturday - Alison Nicholas rested Melissa Reid in similar circumstances.

John,
Believe official result was 15 - 13.

Great credit for women's golf, the entire event, every player.

JC do you really think Munoz wouldn't have halved 18 if she had had to? Cut them a break...both sides. I understand the point you're trying to make re Kerr's injury but when the contest is mathematically over you cant then try and reconstruct what might have/could have been.

JAS, I never said i thought Munoz would have halved 18 if she had to...........

Munoz was 20 feet away, Stanford about 5 feet away. Don't know why they didn't finish the hole..................well i do know why they didn't finish the hole, i just happen to disagree with it. I am still to be convinced Munoz's 20 footer was conceded by Stanford, so i think the overall score might change to 14.5 to 13.5................the bookmakers will definately want to know anyway, because 14.5 13.5 is always a popular pick for punters!!!

As for Kerrs injury, if tendonitis can be brought on by playing all 4 times as opposed to twice i don't know........or is it a type of injury that you either get on certain days regardless of how much you have played previously i don't know.......it was just a pity really..............

JC...the Solheim Cup is about who can get to 14and a half points first...bookmakers never have and never should have any consideration whatsoever in how the matches are played out.

It was really unfortunate on the Kerr injury issue but the point made re how often Nicholas played Reid (with a similar condition) is relevant. The U.S. captain gambled on Kerr's continued fitness and lost...a gamble actually relevant to the contest unlike those punting money on the final score in such a contest.

JAS,
I think the theory blaming the US Captain for bringing on/exasserbating Kerr's injury is going to grow legs so that Europe can feel a bit better about taking that point when the honorable thing to do would have been call it a half..........................and it would have been called a half if this was Ryder Cup........................

Anyway, i think we aren't going to agree on this one!!

No we're not JC, her injury is what it is. It may have been exacerbated by the amount she played it may not. Bottom line tho...what would you do if you turned up on deadline day to play your matchplay opponent and they said...actually I've got tendonitis can we see if we can get an extension??

Id see could we get an extension......................

Alison Nicholas came under a bit of fire for following through with her game plan to pace her team by resting them. With the Kerr incident and Creamer suffering a heavy defeat at the hands of Catriona Matthew, her decision not to succumb to external pressures has been thoroughly vindicated.

A fantastic Solheim Cup, full of drama and high class golf. Thoroughly entertaining although I didn't care much for Michelle Wie's 'Brookline moment' when she charged off at the17th to receive the plaudits of her team mates before her opponent had had the opportunity to putt for the half.

Next time Michelle, it might be a good idea to wait until you've won the match before celebrating!

Nice one Suzann!

The issue with the withdrawal for me comes down to timing. In the Ryder Cup, the captains each put the name of a player in an envelope, who they decide to withdraw in case a player from the other side is injured.

This seems fair to me, you allow a half if there is an injury, but in turn you get to withdraw who you consider is your weakest player. As Kerr had not withdrawn until play had begun, this would not have been an option for Nicholas, and so she would have had Stupples, whom she obviously thought well of as she gave her the anchor match, missing out with just a half.

The way I see it there should be a cut off time - if a player withdraws before, then you have the agreed half. But if they want to risk until the last minute before deciding not to play, then tough, you have to concede your match.

Agree 100% Deltoro re the cut off idea.

That as an aside it would have been grossly unfair if Stupples had had to accept a half.

Must admit Gael, when I tuned in today I was gobsmacked that the Matthew/Creamer match was already done & dusted. Creamer had been immense Fri/Sat but it just goes to show (taking nothing whatsoever away from Matthew's performance) that you can overplay players in this format. Credit where credit's due to the European captain for sound "squad rotation".

Does this mean a clean sweep for Europe over US for all [meaningful] team events???

Perhaps the European Ryder, Walker and Solheim cuppers should have a quick PowerPlay match to decide who'll buy the drinks...

Great performance by the ladies today - kudos to Captain Nicholas and her team.

Skydriver wrote:Does this mean a clean sweep for Europe over US for all [meaningful] team events???

Perhaps the European Ryder, Walker and Solheim cuppers should have a quick PowerPlay match to decide who'll buy the drinks...

Great performance by the ladies today - kudos to Captain Nicholas and her team.

Is there a ladies equivalent of the Walker Cup?

Curtis!

kwinigolfer wrote:Curtis!

I thought there had to be, completely forgot about the Curtis Cup. That's the only one GB&I/Europe don't hold at the moment.

Don't know what to make about the finish to the Solheim Cup. Why is it these things never get finished properly just because we know the result?

And did anyone else find the Europe celebrations a little OTT and a touch disresepecftul? I also think that they Kerr injury should have resulted in a half, that would have been the fair sporting thing to do.

JPX wrote:And did anyone else find the Europe celebrations a little OTT and a touch disresepecftul?

Yes I did. I can only imagine the uproar if the situation was reversed

Exactly my thoughts Davie.

Yer team lost JPX. Man up and deal with it!

Hey no problem with that gael, they were gracious losers anyway!

drive4show wrote:

kwinigolfer wrote:Curtis!

I thought there had to be, completely forgot about the Curtis Cup. That's the only one GB&I/Europe don't hold at the moment.

I will probably be hauled over coals on some EU anti-discrimination grounds for having such a view, but I didn't count Curtis Cup because that's not a full-blown Europe side!

Davie wrote:

JPX wrote:And did anyone else find the Europe celebrations a little OTT and a touch disresepecftul?

Yes I did. I can only imagine the uproar if the situation was reversed

I didn't, I myself was up off the sofa and cheering in my living room when Petterson was playing majestic approach shots and holing putts. It was a thrilling end to the event and emotions were running high and I'm pretty sure if it was the Ryder Cup then the men would have been similar in their celebrations.

After watching it though, I have a new respect for Women's golf, some of them are actually really good.

JPX wrote:Don't know what to make about the finish to the Solheim Cup. Why is it these things never get finished properly just because we know the result?

And did anyone else find the Europe celebrations a little OTT and a touch disresepecftul? I also think that they Kerr injury should have resulted in a half, that would have been the fair sporting thing to do.

JPX - the rules of the Solheim Cup are different from the Ryder Cup - if someone is injured and can't play then they concede the match. It was agreed when it was set up so that one side could not manipulate the result. I actually think they should change the Ryder Cup rules to be the same.

"Hey no problem with that gael, they were gracious losers anyway!"

As were the europeans when they were beaten in the USA last time JPX.

Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for the ON-COURSE conduct from some of the USA team on that occasion. Christina Kim's unsportsmanlike conduct was particularly sickening to witness.

In so far as the Kerr fiasco is concerned - for that is what it was - sportsmanship simply doesn't enter into any equation however you may wish to massage the facts.

Fact One: US team captain knew Kerr was carrying an injury BEFORE any rules agreement was agreed to and signed by both captains prior to the opening ceremony.

Fact Two: In the event of any player WDing from the event, the point would be forfeited.

Fact Three: In the full knowledge that Kerr was carrying an injury, Rosie Jones decided to risk playing Kerr in all four matches in the first two days play in the full knowledge that the singles matches would be played with absolutely no fat to spare viz a viz no option to sit out any player.

Fact Four: If there is a tragedy here then perhaps you spare a thought for Karen Stupples for she was denied the opportunity to beat Kerr!

drive4show wrote:

kwinigolfer wrote:Curtis!

I thought there had to be, completely forgot about the Curtis Cup. That's the only one GB&I/Europe don't hold at the moment.

It's at Nairn next year and likley to be every bit as slowly played as the Solheim!

Great viewing and the europeans thoroughly deserved to celebrate in the way they did. At least they waited until the final result was known. You don't think the US would have done the same? Of course they would.

Calm down Gael, I'm well aware of the rules so no problem with the point, still of the opinion that a half should stand and to suggest teams would manipulate that is a sorry state of affairs.

...and I know how bad Kim was last time, as I stated earlier in the thread. However, does that make it okay for this kind of behviour? not for me.

Christina Kim is a particularly unpleasant and unsightly tub of lard. No place for people like her darkening the door of professional sport.

Oh.Is golf suddenly a sport s_r?

I'm undecided about that Faldo as the wearing of trousers and lack of physical exertion does complicate things a bit for me. I will refer to it as such though to separate it from both proper jobs and past-times.

JPX wrote:Calm down Gael, I'm well aware of the rules so no problem with the point, still of the opinion that a half should stand and to suggest teams would manipulate that is a sorry state of affairs.

Well, if there's just the slightest doubt that a player could give 100% why not forfeit the game if you would then earn half a point? I don't see that as unsportsmanlike. But the problem is that it opens up for speculation and doesn't motivate risk taking. Therefore I think the Solheim Cup rules are better than Ryder Cup.

On the other hand, as an alternative, why not allow to use a substitute in the singles? I think it's fair enough to use a sub - even if a player is not injured. Rules would of course apply for both teams so no advantage gained.

I like this notion that you don't need rules because the game is so honest and noble. What rubbish! If you don't have a rule such as forfeiting the match if you can't play, then it won't be long before the side leading before the singles matches withdraws from all of them for halves and wins the whole thing.
It would be lovely if these things wouldn't be taken advantage of but that is (and probalby was never) the case.

I wonder in how many other sports when a player gets injured they just call it a draw. Come on!?

MPB,

You must be having a laugh!!
Rumour has it that with Europe up by 9.5 to 6.5 at Celtic Manor, Monty ordered the Euro team chef to serve up a bit of raw chicken to the European Tean so that they could claim the 12 half points and bring the Ryder Cup back.........................or have you another hypotethical scenario on how a team could withdraw from 12 singles matches?......bus crash?.....

On another point, that Mickey commentator - was she realy as bored as she sounded?

Every single comment she made was as monotone and bland as a "right, just popping to the shop for some milk, dear".

"Oh fantastic shot from Petersson............I'm just popping to the shop for some milk"

69lover

She has always sounded like that, most unfortunate voice for a commentator

And Robert Lee messed up by not realising it was over after Hedwall secured the half with Munoz 1up and 1 to play................Mickey whats her name wasn't exactly clearing it up for the viewers either...............

John, quite clearly my example of withdrawing from all the singles matches was taking it to it's extreme (thought you might have been able to work that out) but it's clear that things could - and would - be taken advantage of without clear agreed rules. Oh, which there were

If you cannot play your singles then you should forfeit the point. Simply because if you offer a half your assuming they would have at least earnt a half point.

MPB,
I understand that the rules were crystal clear and agreed beforehand. I just happen to disagree with this rule..........and in reality, with the likelihood of the Munoz match ending in a half(if they had putted), the score would have been 13.5 all with the only difference between the sides being the Forfeited match. That's a pity IMO.

It's a pity that the match was forfeited agreed. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the rule though. I think the rule is perfectly fair and stops anyone taking advantage which could be done if a half was on offer.
To say the Munoz match was a 'likely' half, meaning she would have lost the last hole, is an enormous exaggeration by the way! Stanford didn't exactly have a tap in. It was a likely two putt and therefore a likely 1 up win for Munoz, who was excellent

It was about 6 feet for Stanford!!
How is that an enormous exaggeration!!

I just think this rule is designed to stop cheating that is very unlikely to happen in the first place, and in this case, the woman had a severe injury. To have a cloud hanging over the match as a result is unneccessary............

Maybe it's time there is a 13th player available. This is now the 3rd time i can remember something like this.....1991 - Steve Pate, 1993 - Sam Torrance and now this time..............the whole thing was unfair on Stupples as well...........

John, my memory has it a little longer than 6 feet and on a very tricky green. I think an assumed loss of hole and halved match is an exaggeration. Just my opinion.

Maybe the cheating is unlikely to happen because of the rule. I don't know any sport where people don't try and take advantage if the rules allow. After all it's not cheating then!

MPB,
In fairness, none of this should take away from some of the remarkable golf played yesterday.......the Wie Peddersen match in particular was fantastic.....the more the pressure, the better the golf became

Spot on JC

The rules stated Nicklaus was entitled to make Jacklin putt. That's what made it such a classy gesture. Pity the European captain yesterday didn't have the same class.

Still, it appears it didn't affect the result (I didn't watch so can't comment on the conceded half) which is good I guess.

And after all it's only women's golf so it's not really important anyway is it?

John Cregan wrote: and in this case, the woman had a severe injury.

JC

You defeat your own argument with this statement. If she had a severe injury, she should not have been in the team in the first place. And if she decides she IS fit enough to play then breaks down, tough!

Her choice, in this instance her decision didn't work out in her favour.

d4s,
She obviously wasn't injured Friday & saturday so i don;t know what exactly what you mean?
she got a bout of tendonitis and was unable to on Sunday.
All these conspiracy theories are truly bizzare........the rule, while i fundamentally disagree with it, was crystal clear, so it is what it is...............i just happen to believe the ryder cup rule is fairer..........................

What if Kerr had been 8 down and retired through injury, although technically able to win the match it would be unlikely. Would she deserve a half for that?
(conversely if she was 8 up)

If you are unable to take part in a full match I'm not sure how you deserve anything out of it.

JC

Tendonitis doesn't come on overnight, it was most likely exacerbated by Kerr playing 4 games out of 4.

As for the Ryder/Solheim rules, I really don't know which is best or fairer. I don't think it really matters as long as both sides are clear on the rules before play starts.

John,
According to Rosie Jones she was, and Rosie knew she was taking a risk playing her four sessions. Then she specifically asked Kerr before handing in her batting order.
Alison Nicholas chose not to take a similar risk with Mel Reid.

No, because once a match starts, it starts.............................im not advocating a half for a player who has started and not finished....................