Who do SANZAR fans want their teams to meet in the final from NH?

First topic message reminder :

With a strong possibility of a NH v SH RWC, it would be nice to know who our Southern cousins would want facing their team if they're lucky enough to make the final. No need to be coy about this one and go all "shucks, let's take it one game at a time, etc, etc." Let's assume your team is in the final come end of October. So who do you - as a SH fan - want your team - NZ, SA, or Australia - to meet in the final if it's an NH team? And who's most likely in your view?

State your preferences and why. One of the bookies has the following finalists in order of odds. No odds were provided for Italy.

England v NZ 3/1
Fra v NZ 10/3
Irl v NZ 9/2
Wal v NZ 15/2
Sco v NZ 225/1

Eng v Aus 16/1
Irl v Aus 17/1
Fra v Aus 17/1
Wal v Aus 30/1

Eng v SA 22/1
Irl v SA 25/1
Fra v SA 25/1
Wal v SA 40/1

For the record, they still have odds on all-SH final.
Aus v NZ is 20/1
Aus v SA 25/1
NZ v SA 35/1

Yeah, I'd expect Southern Hemisphere posters to respect England the most because England have the track record of going down and winning in the SH that we do not. They even won a World Cup down there. Ireland did pull out a big game and win against Australia, but that was our first SH win since the 70s so we'll need to pull out a few more big performances if we want to earn their respect.

As for recent history between Ireland and Wales; Ireland won in 2007, Wales won in 2008, Ireland won in 2009 and 2010, Wales won in 2011. So history suggests that we have two very evenly matched sides and it's probably going to go with the better team on the day in a close game. I respect Wales a lot; they have firepower in their midfield we would kill for, and a very good attacking game. However our backrow and locks have the edge, and we have a lot more experience in the side. Like I said; two evenly matched sides.

Their likely match up against NZ is a major impact on their tournament. But good to see them get the win today and how things would be different if they had held out against England.

Not good with their injuries though. You never like to see that happen, especially on such a large scale.

If England get past France, I would fancy their chances against Ireland Biltong, but I have to be honest - The French really worry me this time around.

The one thing in England's favour is that France have a nutter for a coach, but that might not be enough this time around, maybe I'm just being a little pessimistic? I felt before the tournament that England may go out at the QF stage, and despite encouraging signs against (ahem) Romania, I still have that nagging feeling.

I do rate Ireland's chances fo the final though, and if the likely QF matches take place I can see them beating Wales and France on their way.

I'm looking forward to the final stages for sure, should be some cracking games.

PJ, the draw for the NH is more unpredicatable than the SH, we have a rampant All Black team to contend with, where as Wales, Irland, England and France can all beat each other.

I looked at the last 10 tests between each of these nations and that is why in my book Ireland is the favourites to go through, that and the fact that they showed an ability to not only outplay australia, who believe me is a very hard team to beat, but they showed a cunningness to outwit.

Something I am not sure the other teams posess.

France is unpredictable, wales looked good against SA, but did not convince against Samoa. England as always during a RWC have the ability to grind wins when necessary, but Ireland looks to have the confidence, the mindset, the attitude, the team spirit and most important the momentum.

based on recent perfomances i'm backing France to be the NH team in the final . Yes Wales ran the Boks close, Ireland beat the Aussies and England are the 6N champs but the French imo can take all 3 . I dont Ireland can put up another big game and Wales should beat them . The french didnt look very interested in the AB game and its my view they were concentrating on England in the Quarter which they should walk away from .This sets up a Wales v France semi with France winning .

France?? They are a complete rabble under Lievremont.

I think Ireland and England are the big threats to the SH sides.

leinsterbaby wrote:They won on goal difference over France.

Are you referring to the 6N here? England won 4 games gaining 8 points, France won 3 games gaining 6 points.

In comparing the NH team's recent performances over each other, the big difference is that no team will have home advantage this time around. Also, this is serious knock out rugby and teams aren't tinkering with their squads, i don't think you can infer much from recent meetings except that they'll all be close affairs.

biltongbek wrote:PJ, the draw for the NH is more unpredicatable than the SH, we have a rampant All Black team to contend with, where as Wales, Irland, England and France can all beat each other.

I looked at the last 10 tests between each of these nations and that is why in my book Ireland is the favourites to go through, that and the fact that they showed an ability to not only outplay australia, who believe me is a very hard team to beat, but they showed a cunningness to outwit.

Something I am not sure the other teams posess.

France is unpredictable, wales looked good against SA, but did not convince against Samoa. England as always during a RWC have the ability to grind wins when necessary, but Ireland looks to have the confidence, the mindset, the attitude, the team spirit and most important the momentum.

Agreed Biltong, the "SH half" of the knockout phase is not for the faint-hearted, there may well be carnage on a previously unseen level. I fancy the Bokke against the Aussies, I doubt whether QC will be up for it, and we all know what happens when his confidence is down. The likely semi between NZ & SA will be a corker if anyone has the game to stop NZ it's the Mean Green Bokke Machine - but I think a head to head of Aus then NZ will maybe prove too much.

As for the "NH half" as I said, I see England (qualification permitting - you can never write off the Scots) failing against France for no other reason than instinct, and that instinct has served me pretty good so far this WC, and Ireland just being too canny for Wales. The possible semi between Ireland and France would also be a corker, but more from an officianados perspective as that could be a massive clash of style against substance, one I would expect Ireland to win on the basis that Kidney is a far more dangerous animal than Lievremont and Ireland have ROG, who rarely fails to come off the bench to kill a game.

Having said all that, the final will only supply one winner and whichever way you perm the knockouts, it's a brave man that would back anyone but NZ to end their 24 years of hurt.

I'm getting a tincey bit excited already.

Well if nerves equals excitement, then I am pretty much over the top excited.

i think wales v ireland could go two way, could either be an incredibly exciting match where both teams go out to win or it could go both teams go out not to lose. i think in wales' case (permitting we do get out of the group) we need to go out to win, i mean wales attacking threat and i think the current back row could cause problems, wales cant let ireland have ball (espicially if ROG is playing as he just gets ireland to play in the right places)

but the beauty about this world cup is everything has turned on its head now so anyone from the NH could end up in the final (well apart from italy and atm scotland)

True enough Welshy, attacking Ireland is Wales' best option, getting into a slugfest with them would not be a great idea the back rows are fairly well-matched but the POC-DOC workrate at the breakdown is only surpassed (IMO) by the Saffer engine room of Botha-Matfield.

Wales have the midfield to hurt Ireland without doubt, out wide I'd say it's honours about even, but Wales' biggest weakness is at FB, it's such a shame Stoddart got injured when he did as I think he could have had a great WC. Given that 15 is a problem area you can guarantee ROG would test it to the limits.

It could be a classic NH clash and I think it will be.

I'd say Australia would prefer to avoid England. New Zealand would prefer to avoid France. And South Africa might be more wary of Ireland than the others.

But any of the three SANZAR teams would be confident of winning a final having got that far.

I'm getting more and more of a sneaking feeling that the Boks could pluck this WC. They haven't had the most testing last couple of games, but I've been quietly impressed by their physicality (the key ingredient to beating the ABs) since the Wales wake up, and as much respect as I have for JdV, I think F.Steyn at centre has made a huge difference. I feel Samoa then Australia will serve them well more than hinder, and that by comparison NZ's run in of Canada then Arg will do them few preparatory favours.

At 10/1 odds, I think I'm going to have a healthy sized punt on it in fact.

Yeah Wales Ireland could be a cracker. Couple of points:

I hope it is not decided by a ridiculous refereeing decision (Kaplan). Wo is ref?

History suggests Ireland, in reality now that wales have a back row it is fairly even.

Wales probably have more injury concerns right now but Ireland have a bruising game v Italy to come.

Jamie Roberts form has been very good.

The refs wont be chosen until all group games have been played Leinster, who would you hope for or to avoid?

The worst shocker I've seen this WC was Barnes this morning, not looking for the offside at a DG attempt was basic in the extreme.

I guess the Italy game could upset the apple cart if Ireland pick up any injuries, but Italy aren't as confrontational as they used to be so I would say Wales have more to fear from Fiji injury wise.

I hope Roman Poite gets the final . Wayne Barnes will not be allowed anywhere near a final and rightfully so , Craig Joubert is a maybe ,Bryce lawrence gets criticised constantly and again rightfully so , Allain rolland was iffy and let the AB get away with too much vs France

For me Roman Poite assisted by Nigel Owens & Craig Joubert

Bullsbok wrote:I hope Roman Poite gets the final . Wayne Barnes will not be allowed anywhere near a final and rightfully so , Craig Joubert is a maybe ,Bryce lawrence gets criticised constantly and again rightfully so , Allain rolland was iffy and let the AB get away with too much vs France

For me Roman Poite assisted by Nigel Owens & Craig Joubert

I'd have Joubert in the middle with Poite and Walshy assisting.

I love the way Joubert refs, he's not fussy at either the scrum or breakdown, at scrums he tends to dish free-kicks and penalties out pretty evenly just to get on with the game, and at the breakdown he favours the team that gets there fustest with the mostest.

Lawrence won't be able to ref it anyway .

Joubert won't be able to referee the match, you already heard from on other threads SA will be in the final.

biltongbek wrote:Joubert won't be able to referee the match, you already heard from on other threads SA will be in the final.

Pinch yourself you crazy Bok, you were lucky to beat Wales.

Without a SH side in the other side I reckon Englands a shoe in for the final- also based on recent history- World cup history.

England play well above themselves at knockout time regardless of whether they have a good team (2003, 1991) or bad team 2007, 1995, 1999 where the SH were required to knock them out on every occasion.

They always seem to account for France and Ireland and Wales need to do something they've never really done well- progress through last 8 and semi's. They may have played their best matches.

Presently Englands rugby looks awful but so did it last time. I just think they've more to call on when it counts

I can't argue with any of your reasoning T'man, it all stacks up well to be fair.

The problem I have is an instinctive one, I just feel the wheels are going to come off in a probable QF against France, don't ask me why because I couldn't really tell you, I just have that feeling.

I do hope you're right though.

PJHolybloke wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Joubert won't be able to referee the match, you already heard from on other threads SA will be in the final.

Pinch yourself you crazy Bok, you were lucky to beat Wales.

Lucks has nothing to do with it mate, it ia about converting opportunities.

biltongbek wrote:

PJHolybloke wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Joubert won't be able to referee the match, you already heard from on other threads SA will be in the final.

Pinch yourself you crazy Bok, you were lucky to beat Wales.

Lucks has nothing to do with it mate, it ia about converting opportunities.

I see what you did there...

I see you are still leading on Sportsguru, but I am catching you, now in 6th place and rolling.

Be afraid, be very afraid.

You're lucky Wales didn't convert their opportunities so Biltong

I think it's very hard to predict the NH side of the draw really. I mean England are definitely not as good as the were in 2003, and not as bad as they were in 2007, so are they still going to get to the final anyway? They do have players from both those 03 and 07 teams so maybe they do have the mental toughness to do it again. The French were beaten by the English in 07, but they did have a monumental quarter final performance in them back in 2007 as well. Were they a little bit jaded afterwards against an English team that took full advantage? Do they have another monumental quarter final performance in them this time? They have certainly saved themselves for the quarter final that's for sure. The Welsh nearly beat South Africa and finally seem to have, not just a competent backrow, but a very good one. In 2005 and 2008 they won a grand slam out of absolutely no where and slipped into mediocrity in between. Can they get to the final out of nowhere too? And Ireland, beating Australia in the SH and keeping them not only tryless during the whole game but scoreless during the second half too. An unbelievable defence masterminded by Les Kiss. Can they deal with the tag of favourites (as they would be against Wales and possibly England if they get to a semi)? Do they have more of these monumental performances we see once in a blue moon in them and, more importantly, can they produce them consistently?

There's a lot of permutations and any of the four could use any argument based on form or history to suit their beliefs. For me though, it's pleasantly unpredictable and each of the four will have realistic ambitions about reaching the final of a world cup. How often does that happen?

Mrclear, I agree with you that the unpredictability makes this RWC very exciting, until you are a Bok supporter and realises what lies ahead.

Injuries will happen and they'll play a part too. France have by far the best strength in depth.

True Biltong, I wouldn't fancy your route to the final myself. Still, if Ireland can beat Australia your boys certainly can. NZ in a semi would be a formidable task alright but your lads have plenty of experience of beating them over there. I wouldn't rule out anyone bar Argentina to get to the final, and I don't think many other supporters would either. 7/8 quarter finalists having realistic hope of getting to the final makes this, as you said, one of the most exciting world cups ever! ......and I have exams in the middle of it all I'll be free for the final when we take your lot on though

Feckless Rogue wrote:Injuries will happen and they'll play a part too. France have by far the best strength in depth.

True, Mike Ross gets injured and we may as well get the white flags out. I'd hope injuries don't play more of a part than they already have though. The French strength in depth is scary alright....they left Poitrenaud at home, he'd probably start for us (Kearney wasn't in great form prior to the world cup anyway). Unfortunately for France, I'd say the mental sanity of their coach will play a much greater role than their strength in depth before the end of this world cup though.

mrsuperclear wrote:True Biltong, I wouldn't fancy your route to the final myself. Still, if Ireland can beat Australia your boys certainly can. NZ in a semi would be a formidable task alright but your lads have plenty of experience of beating them over there. I wouldn't rule out anyone bar Argentina to get to the final, and I don't think many other supporters would either. 7/8 quarter finalists having realistic hope of getting to the final makes this, as you said, one of the most exciting world cups ever! ......and I have exams in the middle of it all I'll be free for the final when we take your lot on though

That will be a great day indeed.

biltongbek wrote:I see you are still leading on Sportsguru, but I am catching you, now in 6th place and rolling.

Be afraid, be very afraid.

Durrrrrr-du, durrrrrr-du, durrrrrr-du, du du du du Aghhhhhhhhh! Shaaaark!!

I saw you got the Ireland pick bob on mate, but I weighed in with Samoa and Argentina - a bit of breathing room but not much.

Yeah, i think yoou beat me by.5 this round.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Injuries will happen and they'll play a part too. France have by far the best strength in depth.

Thats coz on any given day they could be starting due to Lievermonts " i dont believe in playing the same team twice " policy

Cymroglan wrote:Wales beat Ireland the last time the two sides met so recent history dictates that Wales are the better side.
You cant use recent history in your argument if you then ignore the last encounter.

Wales didn't win Ireland lost to Jonathan Kaplan. Don't think that match meant too much.

leinsterbaby wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:Wales beat Ireland the last time the two sides met so recent history dictates that Wales are the better side.
You cant use recent history in your argument if you then ignore the last encounter.

Wales didn't win Ireland lost to Jonathan Kaplan. Don't think that match meant too much.

Don't talk shoite, it had nowt to do with Kaplan, it was the ballboy who lost you the game, great pass, MOM stuff.

Jonathan kaplin is one of the better referees in this World Cup.

What are you crapping on about?

Not you laurie. I agree Kaplan is a good ref but in that match he made a mockery of rugby with one of the worst refereeing horror shows I have seen.

leinsterbaby wrote:What are you crapping on about?

My my, someone's over tired, baby needs more sleep?

Nobody puts baby in the corner.

Leinster (in Ireland)
I always thought that kaplin was let down badly by his assistant.

But should the unforeseen situation arise that South Africa is not in the final,i can think of no one more deserving to be the referee.

leinsterbaby wrote:Nobody puts baby in the corner.

No, but Mike Philipps likes to score there

(apologies in advance)

I think Joubert is better than Kaplan

Maybe Joubert has time on his side, but I dont think we will see Kaplin at another World cup will we ?

I don't even know how old Kaplan is

I thought he was reffing super 12 back in the 90s.

aucklandlaurie wrote: Leinster (in Ireland)
I always thought that kaplin was let down badly by his assistant.

But should the unforeseen situation arise that South Africa is not in the final,i can think of no one more deserving to be the referee.

Yes he was but Kaplan from his vantage point could have spotted at least three of the five infringements the most obvious being the ball landed in the crowd.

My recollection on it is a bit hazy,and I dont think I studied it as much as you, but didnt he ask the assistant and the assistant lied?

He did ask the assistant, after the try was scored. My question is why did he need to? Didn't he see the ball land in the crowd. Couldn't he see the ball boy give another ball to the welsh hooker, why didn't he see the welsh hooker was standing in the field of play when the ball was thrown for a quick throw that wasn't even thrown the correct distance? If you were a good ref should you really need help to spot so many infringements?

The linesman must have been snorting crack because he then told Kaplan the right ball was used.

I think the linesman realised in the moment JK asked him that he had made a mistake. JK was absolved by the linesman, try is awarded. It was a huge feck up. It raises the issue of who controls the game, when i hear refs asking for linesmen recommendations it seems to me they are diminishing the role and responsibility of the ref