Irish Post mortem

First topic message reminder :

This thread is going to be painful and its time the gloves came off so if you dont like it just ignore it. But Im absolutely sick to the back teeth about what I heard tonight all of which blamed the defeat on ROG and Murray. Heres my take on it



1. Lets get one thing straight -Wales have a better team 1 to 15. I only found this out today but its clear. Their strenght and physicality was superior. They owned the break down which is where they won game. Our half backs were under severe pressure and were forced to change there plans at the last second every time. Warburten murdered us here.

2. Roberts absolutely killed us. And it wasnt in the 10 channel. BOD and Darcy are now the most ineffective centres in top tier Interantional rugby. For the second try Darcy shouted at players that he had the blindside covered - by f**k did he.

3. Front row - Irelands front row has been a revelation in the last 6 months and I am loathed to even think about criticising any player here. Cian Healy and Mike Ross have brought Ireland to this top table and simply have been brilliant. Didnt go well today.

4. Back row - Irelands best weapon in the games where we have turned up. One player has been absent - Heaslip. P. O'Mahony now has to be looked at as a replacement. You cant live on reputation. Would SOB have done so well against Australia if they had a natural 7 Pocock playing??? Not a criticism of SOB as he is not a natural 7. I believe you can live without a natural 7 as long as you commit men to the breakdown.

5. ROG and Murray - ROG had a terrible game - two over cooked kicks in the first half lost us good field position. Some sympathy for Murray as the break down was a mess because we didnt commit numbers and failed to secure our own ball. Pack was going backwards at the rate of knots all day. Did Sexton and Reddan make any difference - imo no- reddans first contribution was 2 poor box kicks into mid field and sexton first kick was an aimless kick into mid field which led to the third try.



Why we lost - the game was lost in the pack. Wales totally dominated here slowing down our ball at best and turning it over at best. Everything Preistland touched turned to gold. Roberts was a human wrecking ball.



Reirements


2. BOD great season in 09 for GS but is just falling off tackles now and not making breaks. Possibly move to 12 but I think should now retire

3. ROG - will retire

4.DOC - times up -great servant

5.Darcy - time to step aside - one of Irelands best ever 12s if not the best

Nos na Gaoithe wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:

roddersm wrote:Stand it's not double standards. I simply don't believe O'Gara was playing better than Sexton and I've stated above why I feel Sexton is so fundimental to the side.

Rodders you are boardering on an obsession here with ROG. You really dont understand the game if you think it was lost at out half yesterday . Sexton didnt make one bit of difference when he came on - in fact his aimless kick into mid field resulted in the third try.



And as for the comment Sextons form was good that just diminishes all of your arguments. A fly half who kicked 6 from 15???

I've more or less said my peace on the previous page... but perhaps if we highlight where people keep attacking individual posters rather than the topic at hand then those people will reign themselves in of their own accord.

As to the sentiment involved in such statements, here's some analysis from some of the first rugby articles I could find from rugby pundits working for a variety of newspapers who obviously don't have a clue about rugby either:

"Ireland had the wind in the first half, but O’Gara kicked so badly that Wales kept getting out. Ireland’s backline started to get pushed sideways, often a problem with O’Gara’s crablike instincts. And the forwards could not keep enough of a sustained drive." [Telegraph]

"The selection of Ronan O'Gara did not work. His kicking game was awry and he lacked the understanding with his half-back partner, Conor Murray, that Rhys Priestland had with Mike Phillips. Ireland went into the tournament without a clear first choice at scrum-half, having left Tomas O'Leary at home, and they could have used the experience of Peter Stringer." [Guardian]

"10. Ronan O'Gara - A bad day for O'Gara, he overcooked several crucial kicks in the first half when Ireland needed to build pressure and never got the key carriers moving. Player Rating: 3." [RTE]


Yep it's all a big conspiracy.

NOS I read your long long long piece yesterday and quiet frankly I didnt know what point you were trying to make. If you read your post you would think there was only one player playing for Ireland.

Interestingly Thornley is suggesting that building for 2015 will start in 2013 and we will continue with the current crop for the next few seasons.

What do others think about that?

O'Connell I think is still at the top of his game but I have serious doubts about O'Driscoll, O'Gara, D'arcy etc.

They are all still capable for sure but are only going to decline over the next few seasons. They've won everything there is, bar the RWC, which won't happen now so I don't see the logic off selecting these guys in key positions for another couple of seasons.

Maybe a win over the ABs next season would be a realistic target for BOD and co but in my opinion only O'Connell would be in with a serious shout of the Lions tour in 2013.

I think we need to see some serious changes as soon as next seasons 6N. The likes of Wales and England are only going to get better whereas a 3rd of our team are going to decline so we can't afford to build the team around the older guys any longer.

Rods I think that would be a huge mistake. Obviously these guys bring a lot in terms of experience but to me ROG, Darcy, BOD and Donners should all retire from International rugby. They still have a lot to offer Munster and Leinster but we have to get new players into these positions especially mid field.

BlueMuff wrote:
NOS I read your long long long piece yesterday and quiet frankly I didnt know what point you were trying to make. If you read your post you would think there was only one player playing for Ireland.

Hi Blue.

I think we all appreciate your editing and removing the vitriol against those you had drinks with in Dublin and anyone at all who would question ROG's selection for the game. It now reads as a much more reasonable and convincing argument.

But my comments were made in the context of the original post and, even more so, the fact that I had been personally attacked by another poster that I'd never even spoken to for barely even hinting at the ROG selection thing. That was the reason why it was focused on ROG.

My post was long and tedious because (1) I felt the need for obvious reasons, as most people round here do, to somehow explain that I support ROG and Munster and do not wish to attack him/them in any biased way. (2) Because I don't think it is unreasonable to question the ROG decision given that it was perhaps the most important decision and position on the pitch (in terms of gameplan) and many of us felt we played the wrong type of game with him in there (it had been the biggest question in Irish rugby for the last two years).

As I have explained... I DO NOT think that the whole game was about ROG ...there were numerous numerous areas in which Wales got everything right on the night (and that was not a given - they could well have failed in employing their ROG strategy in particular). I think that Sexton more or less did it to himself with his poor kicking. And finally, I clearly stated, contrary to others who said "wales were simply better", that I felt we could still have won that game with ROG on the pitch and was NOT convinced when I saw Sexton running on that things were going to change.

Hope that explains things a bit better.

Cheers, BM.

Nos I had written it after lots of pints and many arguements after losing a WC semi final - in the cold light of day it was uncalled for.

And to make it worse I was in Crowes and the whole put let up a chant of Ole Ole Ole Ospeys which quiet frankly was sickening.

Anyway I do go over board but I think that there is way to much talk of ROG when other players were equally to blame.

So apologies for going a little overboard - everybody is a bit bruised and emotions are running high. To me its shows it means a lot to us all

BlueMuff wrote:Nos I had written it after lots of pints and many arguements after losing a WC semi final.

And to make it worse I was in Crowes and the whole put let up a chant of Ole Ole Ole Ospeys which quiet frankly was sickening.

Anyway I do go over board but I think that there is way to much talk of ROG when other players were equally to blame.

So apologies for going a little overboard - everybody is a bit bruised and emotions are running high. To me its shows it means a lot to us all

Understood BM.

And there've been few games as painful as this one.

I think the low of losing is more extreme/tangible/acute than the high of winning!

Nos na Gaoithe wrote:
But my comments were made in the context of the original post and, even more so, the fact that I had been personally attacked by another poster that I'd never even spoken to for barely even hinting at the ROG selection thing. That was the reason why it was focused on ROG.

Yeah I think that was against me. I've been banging the Sexton drum all season and make no apologies for believing that we are a better team with Sexton at 10.

I'm afraid BlueMuff and a couple of others take this as some kind of personal attack of ROG and Munster, which it isn't and I'd be just as likely to cheer Munster on against Leinster if they were playing tomorrow. I'm well aware of the strengths that ROG brings to the table but I feel that given the current way the game is played and the dynamics of our side that Sextons strengths are much more valuable. ROG still offers a lot in that supersub role but I think he is the wrong guy to start at 10 against the top sides.

The descision to select ROG and drop Sexton didn't cost us against Italy but it was clearly a tactical mistake againt a Welsh side with maybe two of the most powerful and direct running backs in the competition, in Roberts and North and a fullback who could boot the ball for miles.

Was that the only reason we lost? No of course not but it certainly made Wales task easier in my view.

ROG's strengths are passing and kicking and if he has no serious strike threat outside him to pass to and the opposing back 3 are reading his kicks then he becomes something of a liabilty, in attack and defence, rather than an asset. It is not just down to ROG per se but that combination of ROG, D'arcy and O'Driscoll is no longer a unit that posses a serious threat against the top sides and is increasingly now becoming a defensive vulnerability.

BlueMuff wrote:
Anyway I do go over board but I think that there is way to much talk of ROG when other players were equally to blame.

It's not about blame bluemuff. It's about trying to identify why we came up short. You can't blame any individual player or fault anyones ability or effort but there were areas of the field were certain units were exposed in attack and defence and wrong options were taken by key individuals.

roddersm wrote:

Nos na Gaoithe wrote:
But my comments were made in the context of the original post and, even more so, the fact that I had been personally attacked by another poster that I'd never even spoken to for barely even hinting at the ROG selection thing. That was the reason why it was focused on ROG.

Yeah I think that was against me. I've been banging the Sexton drum all season and make no apologies for believing that we are a better team with Sexton at 10.

Yeah... i kinda guessed that Rodders ... but actually think it was my comment that drew the attack PRECISELY because I was trying to allude to it subtly without bringing it up outright! That made it sound a bit smug I think and led to the other poster's attack.

My attempt to avoid bringing it up also contributed, indirectly, to this two-day "let's focus on ROG" thread!

Rods, Sexton's weaknesses are mentally. You couldn't start him because of his kicking (and to a certain extent) game management. He has had every opportunity to be the starting OH, but he blew it. His kicking lets him down and that shakes the confidence of the team.

Maybe the answer is to move him to 12 (he looks comfortable there) and hopefully one of the younger OHs (Keatley, Jackson, Niall Morris etc) might step up quickly to the plate by the end of next year when O'Gara will surely be thinking of retiring.

Sin,

Isn't his confidence being knocked though by the constant swapping around etc.

Look at Priestland, ok admittedly he was chucked in due to injuries but even when Jones and Hook were fit Gatland stuck with hims which will have given his confidence a huge boost.

lads no mention of madigan at 10, he has been one of leinsters shining lights in our bleak last few weeks. A string of games and he looks like a new player, his kicking has been good too with a lovely longe range penalty against connacht. if he keeps performing and impressing schmidt it could get tougher for sexton, what we dont want is sexton to turn into the irish hook

roddersm wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:
Anyway I do go over board but I think that there is way to much talk of ROG when other players were equally to blame.

It's not about blame bluemuff. It's about trying to identify why we came up short. You can't blame any individual player or fault anyones ability or effort but there were areas of the field were certain units were exposed in attack and defence and wrong options were taken by key individuals.

But Rods 90% of your posts relate to ROG - where as players like Heaslip / BOD have been left go through the whole WC without even a mention. Its the fact that all the talk is about ROG just annoys me a little.

I do think we have moved on though so happy to focus on the rebuilding from here on in.

Sin é wrote:Rods, Sexton's weaknesses are mentally. You couldn't start him because of his kicking (and to a certain extent) game management. He has had every opportunity to be the starting OH, but he blew it. His kicking lets him down and that shakes the confidence of the team.

Hey Sin... I think this is maybe a less contentious way of looking at it. To look at Sexton. We can all agree that Sexton's kicking was the main culprit in his own downfall. But what I would add in his defence is that whereas many think it was ROG that was underestimated by fans, I'd say ironically it was the other way round. We all loved ROG's bravery, his amazing cool-headed kicking (that conversion against wales was absolutely unbelievable) and his game-control. But by contrast most didn't really ever appreciate Sexton's performances in those game where we dominated the opposition physically like we never did with ROG there.

I think what he does for the Irish team at 10 is quite understated but actually hugely important. We defend the gainline with much more aggression. We run the midfield area with more aggression. The rest of the team don't have to focus on covering his channel or making sure they're on his shoulder everytime he changes the direction of his run. He provides that extra punch and ball-carrying threat in midfield that we lacked when we were pressuring Wales in their 22 for phase after phase in the first half, etc.

Often, none of these things lead to tries or game-changing moments that focus the camera on Sexton... but the overall effect is to give Ireland much more front foot possession.

Anyways, just a thought. And agree that Sexton's big game temperament was always a question (which is precisely why I would have started him and had ROG in reserve).

bedfordwelsh wrote:Sin,

Isn't his confidence being knocked though by the constant swapping around etc.

Look at Priestland, ok admittedly he was chucked in due to injuries but even when Jones and Hook were fit Gatland stuck with hims which will have given his confidence a huge boost.

Sexton has 26 caps (starting most of them coming into the RWC). Priestland has under 10. Sexton lost his spot more than anything else. His kicking stats are about 40% for the world cup.

Did Priestland have any poor games? (He is lucky in that there are a couple of kickers in the team as well).

Nos

I think you need more than defence from your 10. Tomas O'Leary got picked because of his physicality & strong defence (if he was playing against Wales I bet Phillips wouldn't have got that try) but most people who post here and elsewhere couldn't wait for him to be dropped.

I also think one of the reasons why Sexton didn't start was becuase he didn't play particularly well with Conor Murray when they did play together, and Conor Murray was needed to match up to Phillips (who would have killed Reddan).

D24tress wrote:lads no mention of madigan at 10, he has been one of leinsters shining lights in our bleak last few weeks. A string of games and he looks like a new player, his kicking has been good too with a lovely longe range penalty against connacht. if he keeps performing and impressing schmidt it could get tougher for sexton, what we dont want is sexton to turn into the irish hook

I meant Madigan actually and no Morris. I think he is looking very good from what I've seen of him.
Nothing wrong with James Hook.

Sin é wrote:
I think you need more than defence from your 10.

It's more about physicality than defence. I think we were more physically aggressive in defense AND with the ball in hand with Sexton at 10... and to me that is the key to the modern game.

Your second point I agree with almost completely... but would not have seen the selection of Murray as being that much of a necessity.

Sin é wrote:

D24tress wrote:lads no mention of madigan at 10, he has been one of leinsters shining lights in our bleak last few weeks. A string of games and he looks like a new player, his kicking has been good too with a lovely longe range penalty against connacht. if he keeps performing and impressing schmidt it could get tougher for sexton, what we dont want is sexton to turn into the irish hook

I meant Madigan actually and no Morris. I think he is looking very good from what I've seen of him.
Nothing wrong with James Hook.

Agreed. He does look like a new man. Shows what extra responsibility and game-time does for many players.

I dont think anything suggested is a reaction to our defeat. It is more a reaction to the age profile and settled nature of our squad. I think our squad needs a bit of unsettling truth be told. We need to remind these guys that they are playing for the shirt and if they dont perform they wont always be picked (something we havent been good at in the past).

One flaw of the Irish psyche is that we tend to give young guys one or two games to stake a place and then opt for the safety net of experience if things dont go our way. When its older, more established guys that are struggling for form we tend to give them chance after chance. It should be more the other way round.

If we leave rebuilding this team till 2013 we will do nothing at RWC 2015. I agree Rodders that Spence should come in and is the most ready to do so but i dont think he possesses the all round game that you see from him. I have no issue for him to learn that alongide BOD. His defence is top notch and his physicality would be welcome in the Irish midfield.

For the 6N i would like to see either Spence or Gilroy brought in, POM might be a good shout but a younger backrow at any rate and a new lock be it Ryan or Tuohy or possibly one of the Connacht lads. Beyond that we should be resting BOD next summer and bringin Marshall, Keatley, Conway, McAllister down to the SH. It has to start with the provinces though and we need to be more forward thinking and take more risks on our youngsters in this regard.

Rog played poorly as did others.(3 out of ten is a bit harsh) I guess the point that he was trying to make was that Sexton would have been savaged by some on here if he delivered the performance Rog did on Saturday and not absolved of the blame.

I am thoroughly depressed now it has only kicked in. Players gave their all and tried their best but we fell comfortably short. The Aus means nothing now I felt we would limp out in the quarters at the outset and unfortunately that has transpired despite two great group performances. I guess that is knock out rugby at its toughest. If you do not play well you do not win simples. Thought we would have had momentum to deliver another performance but we looked shot the last 20 minutes.

Our back play despite a good twenty minutes v Italy has been so poor. This was highlighted in the first half. we had no plan b when great welsh defence cut off Sean OBrien and Ferris. It has been poor for the last 15 months and the chickens came home to roost on Saturday. We don't have the luxury of sending North,Roberts,Davies bashing up the middle so surely we should have had something else up our sleeves. Gaffney is gone but im not sure that will remedy our problems completely. Kidney needs to take some of the blame as we never really tried anything in terms of personnel in midfield to remedy our lack of both power and pace.

Two defensive errors done for us in the 2nd half no doubt and we looked shot after that. We were well in it after Earls try, maybe we thought we were in the driving seat then and took our eye off the ball. who knows. Phillips try was so preventable as was Davies. Darcy,Healy,Earls all culpable.

At the end of the day we butchered a great chance to get to a World Cup semi final after doing all the hard work and. We lost to a very good Welsh team but not one who are vastly superior to us as made out elsewhere. We will win 50% of games v Wales in the coming years. We just lost the most important one.

The only thing that cheered me up was Marc Lievremenonts tache. France played some great rugby and delighted the English are out

OK. ROG needs to stay with Munster and not go near a green jersey again. Its over. No more whinging, crying ect... he needs not to be involved.

Sexton, for all his weaknesses needs to be given the 10 jersey and hold onto it in confidence (or better yet, be challenged by someone else)

Darcy needs replacing at Leinster. I hope Schmidt keeps an eye on him, because Luke Fitz is having a fantastic season at 12 so far. Dacrce needs not be be selected again.

O Callaghan needs replacing. Lets give Ryan a good stint in there. Again, heres hoping he dislodges him at Munster.

BOD. His days are numbered and for the good of regeneration purposes, he needs to consider his position. We need a new captain.

Why wasnt Trimble given more of a chance?? Earls was poor poor poor at the weekend. No room for old favorites.

We has one good win against Oz and one good win over a tired, old, haggered Italian team.

Looking back, the WC was a failure. A coaching failure above all. Simple as.

Oh, and as for Wales... what a team. So strong and exciting. My hope it that it galvanizes tjheir regions and Welsh rugby becomes somewhat better supported. Well done Wales- I hope you win it out, because you deserve it..

sin e. for the 100th time

we could not wait for TOL to be dropped as he was playing dreadful rugby and has absolutely no concepts of the basics of scrum half play ie passing, kicking and decision making. nothing personal against the guy but he was sucking the life out of our attacking game. Couldnt give a monkeys if he has amazing scramble defense if he cannot do the basics. if his basics improve i have no issue with him being recalled. until then he is no better than 3rd choice

why are we obsessed with defensive scrum halves to stifle opposition scrum halves. we should really just play our best player in the jersey. scrum halves do not just run at each other all day. maybe on the flip side a smaller man like reddan could have added more pace and faster service?

Oh, and as for Wales... what a team. So strong and exciting. My hope it that it galvanizes tjheir regions and Welsh rugby becomes somewhat better supported. Well done Wales- I hope you win it out, because you deserve it..

Aw shucks, you're too kind. The 6N match at Dublin will be a stormer and if the Welsh regions cant get their house in order on the back of this heaven help them!

I actually still think ROG has a lot to offer Ireland. Maybe not so much in a playing capacity but more in helping to bring through young fly halves in the same way BOD can help bring through young centres. I dont think we should be departing from Sexton as our starting 10 though. He is the future and he needs to get all the gametime we can give him

dont care who wins it now. Wales were pragmatic, disciplines and brutally direct, not very welsh at all but they executed their game to perfection and comfortably won. the offload stats were interesting reading. Wales can however mix things up and fling it around when the time is right. Just didnt need to do it against us.

Boyne i have to agree about coaching. Why is it that Johnno will get pulverized for a quarter final exit but criticise any of our coaching team and its akin to having a pop at Bambi. They need to take their share of the blame for a poor year. mistakes were made.

I actually still think ROG has a lot to offer Ireland. Maybe not so much in a playing capacity but more in helping to bring through young fly halves

By doing what!!? Moaning and bitching at how good he used to be and how they are not doing it right??

I read the guys autobiography and he doesnt seem to be the type to be able to impart wisdom in a meaningful way.

No, lets employ someone who can coach the right way. A pro if you will. No more jobs for the lads, thanks.

ROG had given us some great times, but I think it may be time for him to up skill and move on.

dublin_dave wrote:dont care who wins it now. Wales were pragmatic, disciplines and brutally direct, not very welsh at all but they executed their game to perfection and comfortably won. the offload stats were interesting reading. Wales can however mix things up and fling it around when the time is right. Just didnt need to do it against us.

Boyne i have to agree about coaching. Why is it that Johnno will get pulverized for a quarter final exit but criticise any of our coaching team and its akin to having a pop at Bambi. They need to take their share of the blame for a poor year. mistakes were made.

A poor 2 years. We won a GS- fantastic. Laws of averages state we should have had more, we were that close. Plus, we only won it by the width of a post, basically.

No,

-Kidneys failure to look at meaningful center combos
-Sticking with Dacy over the last 2 years when he needed replacing
-Not trying (for whatever reason) O Driscoll at 12
-Not looking at Ross until he was forced to (ditto SOB)
-Leamy still hanging around the squad- no business
-F**king around Sexton and pondering to O Gara's bitching to the media that he should be the one starting
-STILL NO 7!!!!!

A poor, poor 2 years.

interesting night on the 4th of movember, 4 weeks rest and you'd expect the big guns to be back for leinster v munster in the aviva

the thing is the fans will expect each team to win.
The fans will demand each team get out of there heino group and will
expect a semi or final.

That leaves mcgahan(in particular) and schmidt in a tough position
with regards to bringing youth into the team.

How are munster going to bring through one of there young 2nd rows
when they need a win, when doc and poc are available, there is nothing in it for mcgahan to gain.

likewise why would schmidt give ryan or rudduck an extended run at 7 when he knows that jennings SOB and heislip are the best backrow unit in european club rugby and will get him to a 1/4 finals at least.

Boyne wrote:

I actually still think ROG has a lot to offer Ireland. Maybe not so much in a playing capacity but more in helping to bring through young fly halves

By doing what!!? Moaning and bitching at how good he used to be and how they are not doing it right??

I read the guys autobiography and he doesnt seem to be the type to be able to impart wisdom in a meaningful way.

No, lets employ someone who can coach the right way. A pro if you will. No more jobs for the lads, thanks.

ROG had given us some great times, but I think it may be time for him to up skill and move on.

If he isnt the sort to help bring new players through then i would agree there is very little he can contribute further. Sexton needs to be given 100% backing. I dont like to think that of these guys though. Irish rugby and the fans have given them a career and i think the experienced guys owe to the provinces and the country to impart their knowledge onto their replacements. ROG knows the game inside out and i hope he does this as i do with the others.

What annoyed me most was how passive we were. When we had possession, we had static ball carriers against a rush defence. How did we ever expect to beat that.

Then in defence, we invited the Welsh on. I can't understand the logic in that, allowing big runners like Roberts, Davies and North build up a head of steam.

D24tress wrote:interesting night on the 4th of movember, 4 weeks rest and you'd expect the big guns to be back for leinster v munster in the aviva

the thing is the fans will expect each team to win.
The fans will demand each team get out of there heino group and will
expect a semi or final.

That leaves mcgahan(in particular) and schmidt in a tough position
with regards to bringing youth into the team.

How are munster going to bring through one of there young 2nd rows
when they need a win, when doc and poc are available, there is nothing in it for mcgahan to gain.

likewise why would schmidt give ryan or rudduck an extended run at 7 when he knows that jennings SOB and heislip are the best backrow unit in european club rugby and will get him to a 1/4 finals at least.

The only solution is for pressure to be put on them from above. Its not a case of throwing youngsters in because they are young, but giving them meaningful experience of Heineken rugby will stand to the province in the future. Schmidt has already done it to some degree (injury enforced). It does take stones from a coach put it can pay dividends. Look how Nevin Spence has come through at Ulster. I dont think he played that much before the Heineken Cup.

Standulstermen wrote:

D24tress wrote:interesting night on the 4th of movember, 4 weeks rest and you'd expect the big guns to be back for leinster v munster in the aviva

the thing is the fans will expect each team to win.
The fans will demand each team get out of there heino group and will
expect a semi or final.

That leaves mcgahan(in particular) and schmidt in a tough position
with regards to bringing youth into the team.

How are munster going to bring through one of there young 2nd rows
when they need a win, when doc and poc are available, there is nothing in it for mcgahan to gain.

likewise why would schmidt give ryan or rudduck an extended run at 7 when he knows that jennings SOB and heislip are the best backrow unit in european club rugby and will get him to a 1/4 finals at least.

The only solution is for pressure to be put on them from above. Its not a case of throwing youngsters in because they are young, but giving them meaningful experience of Heineken rugby will stand to the province in the future. Schmidt has already done it to some degree (injury enforced). It does take stones from a coach put it can pay dividends. Look how Nevin Spence has come through at Ulster. I dont think he played that much before the Heineken Cup.

In all respect to the ulster team at the time of spence coming through, the pressure on the management was not the same, as the alternative was not lions and international players with heineken cups won. ulster have had time to build up there youngsters as there wasnt much alternatives and it has paid off massively

The pressure on the Ulster management who hadnt reached the knockouts of the Heineken for 10/11 years wasnt the same?
Agree to disagree there D2.

They need to keep going in that mode and back these young guys.

Sin é wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Sin,

Isn't his confidence being knocked though by the constant swapping around etc.

Look at Priestland, ok admittedly he was chucked in due to injuries but even when Jones and Hook were fit Gatland stuck with hims which will have given his confidence a huge boost.

Sexton has 26 caps (starting most of them coming into the RWC). Priestland has under 10. Sexton lost his spot more than anything else. His kicking stats are about 40% for the world cup.

Did Priestland have any poor games? (He is lucky in that there are a couple of kickers in the team as well).

Nos

I think you need more than defence from your 10. Tomas O'Leary got picked because of his physicality & strong defence (if he was playing against Wales I bet Phillips wouldn't have got that try) but most people who post here and elsewhere couldn't wait for him to be dropped.

I also think one of the reasons why Sexton didn't start was becuase he didn't play particularly well with Conor Murray when they did play together, and Conor Murray was needed to match up to Phillips (who would have killed Reddan).

Sin,

Fair point and I didn't realise Sexton had played that many games yet, but even still has ever been given the vote of confidence etc, has he been told you are my 10 go and play etc.

Maybe the safety blanket of having ROG there has been the reason but like I said I was happy to see ROG start as opposed to Sexton

static ball carriers is a symptom of the last two years. it has been driving me bonkers. we are obsessed with walking pods of forwards particularly in the red zone.

Keeping talented players in Ireland to benchwarm is another problem. All provinces have this to an extent. Nagle, Conway, Faloon to name a few. We are effectively giving the message that if you do choose to move abroad you are not getting a look in for the International Team. It is something that we may need to change. I mean a spell in England/France would benefited the above 3 no end even for a year

Hello am new to this posting lark at my age...interesting to watch lots of passion for the team and clearly some obvious bias in terms of provinces and the various players...lots of blame on the halfback pairing but to my mind we had a complete systems failure...

Wales executed their game plan better than ours, we didnt adapt enough to this. The team as a whole have to take responsibility for this. We had no go forward ball so how the halfback pairing can be blamed for this is not clear? We did not attack around the fringes and had no runners off O'Gara's shoulder especially on the inside as Wales shot up in midfield. We overplayed the Ferris, O'Brian card and not once did the back line align deeper. Healy (who will be world class) was being dominated. Our tackling was not aggressive. Our kicking out of hand was poor (it wouldnt have made much of a difference if Sexton or O'Gara was on for this).

We did not attempt to vary from our game plan. Why did we not take the kicks at goal in the first half. This is a QF of a world cup...you need to score points (look at the ABs yesterday). We should have been either ahead at half time or within a point.

I cannot pick out individuals, our defensive lapses for the three tries were poor but I think the aggressiveness of Wales in attack and their physicality was something we didnt seem prepared for. In addition I think mental fatigue played a part.

None of the players on the pitch owe us anything and some of the cowardly juvenile attacks on individuals who have given a lot of effort and no little skill for Ireland and their provinces is a pity.

Without pointing out individuals who should go/retire etc or blame them for the loss (which as stated is pointless). I would like to be more positive in terms of looking at players coming in and where we might improve...

1. Ryan - to me his physicality has improved and he made a difference for everygame.
2. McFadden needs to start
3. Trimble/Bowe and Earls need to be incorporated in the team...neither of these three could be seen to be a week link and all of them have more to offer in terms of attack.
4. Find some more props for the Front row.
5. We missed David Wallace and we need to find another 7.
6. I think we need to have another No.10 come through because I dont think we are that strong here now looking at the incumbents. One is on the way out and one has been on a plateau for a while now.

Coach - I think Kidney has done as well as he could with the players at his disposal. I dont think he should leave. I dont think we would get as good a replacement.

newbie welcome to the forum and thats a very good first post.

McFadden needs to first find a consistent position and then start there for his province. What position would you pick him in?

newbie wrote:Hello am new to this posting lark at my age...interesting to watch lots of passion for the team and clearly some obvious bias in terms of provinces and the various players...lots of blame on the halfback pairing but to my mind we had a complete systems failure...

Wales executed their game plan better than ours, we didnt adapt enough to this. The team as a whole have to take responsibility for this. We had no go forward ball so how the halfback pairing can be blamed for this is not clear? We did not attack around the fringes and had no runners off O'Gara's shoulder especially on the inside as Wales shot up in midfield. We overplayed the Ferris, O'Brian card and not once did the back line align deeper. Healy (who will be world class) was being dominated. Our tackling was not aggressive. Our kicking out of hand was poor (it wouldnt have made much of a difference if Sexton or O'Gara was on for this).

We did not attempt to vary from our game plan. Why did we not take the kicks at goal in the first half. This is a QF of a world cup...you need to score points (look at the ABs yesterday). We should have been either ahead at half time or within a point.

I cannot pick out individuals, our defensive lapses for the three tries were poor but I think the aggressiveness of Wales in attack and their physicality was something we didnt seem prepared for. In addition I think mental fatigue played a part.

None of the players on the pitch owe us anything and some of the cowardly juvenile attacks on individuals who have given a lot of effort and no little skill for Ireland and their provinces is a pity.

Without pointing out individuals who should go/retire etc or blame them for the loss (which as stated is pointless). I would like to be more positive in terms of looking at players coming in and where we might improve...

1. Ryan - to me his physicality has improved and he made a difference for everygame.
2. McFadden needs to start
3. Trimble/Bowe and Earls need to be incorporated in the team...neither of these three could be seen to be a week link and all of them have more to offer in terms of attack.
4. Find some more props for the Front row.
5. We missed David Wallace and we need to find another 7.
6. I think we need to have another No.10 come through because I dont think we are that strong here now looking at the incumbents. One is on the way out and one has been on a plateau for a while now.

Coach - I think Kidney has done as well as he could with the players at his disposal. I dont think he should leave. I dont think we would get as good a replacement.

An impressive first post newb... some good points in there.

I particularly agree with the points about our one-dimensionality and the over-emphasis on SOB and Ferris carrying everything. But I think our one-dimensionality was clearly a result of the strategies and gameplans we entered the game with... and our kicking game being neutralised... not strictly the result of players performing erratically.

For instance the big question I have is... when the Welsh flooded the breakdowns and fanned out across either side of the fringes to chop-tackle and negate the forward carrying game (which is effectively why we could never get our big carriers going) we showed absolutely no ability/effort to change the game up and force them out of that defensive structure. The options as I see them were:

1) The most obvious thing to do would have been kick through (perhaps with grubber kicks instead of long Garryowens...
2) We could have spun the ball out the backline more... and made more yards with our runners and by changing lines.
3) We could have tried to maintain more rolling mauls or simply up the intensity through the front of the breakdown to create the space in behind the single fanned out line of Welsh defence.

None of these things happened. Why?

The first was negated because Wales seemed well prepared for that and Ireland were for good reason reluctant to kick anywhere in front of the Welsh back three. The second was also automatically limited by choosing ROG and thereby negating our carrying threat in midfield (which meant we went wide too quickly and too often to create enough space in the Welsh defensive line).

However the absence of the third and final tactic is very strange. The other two were part of the limitations we gave ourselves by going with a kicking game. But why was it so hard to foresee that we needed to try something like tactic No.3 when just some 7 months ago the Welsh had similarly neutralised our kicking game? It's not like its a crazy off the wall tactic... it's quite conservative you keep the ball in hand, it disrupts the Welsh pack and defensive line who have to keep retreating behind the hindmost foot. And it leads to many more penalties as opposition players tend to get drawn in to the side of the breakdown.

I must admit I was shocked (but pleased) when they kept truning down kickable penalties so early in the game after having just gone behind.

bedfordwelsh wrote:I must admit I was shocked (but pleased) when they kept truning down kickable penalties so early in the game after having just gone behind.

ROG (and let's not forget the other two Irish leaders: BOD & POC) refusing kickable penalties in the opening 20 mins of a WC QF (when surely that was why he was in the team) is one of those mysteries that will befuddle the great minds down through the ages.

Newb is right it should/could have been 10-9 at least at the break... then the psychology of the entire game would have been completely different.

I liked the fact ROG went for touch with the first penalty, I thought it was a great attitude towards the welsh to show that we were going for the try. However when it didn't work and with another penalty, I thought he took the wrong option trying it again.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I liked the fact ROG went for touch with the first penalty, I thought it was a great attitude towards the welsh to show that we were going for the try. However when it didn't work and with another penalty, I thought he took the wrong option trying it again.

I can agree with that RG... but I believe we refused 4 penalties in that first half.

bedfordwelsh wrote:I must admit I was shocked (but pleased) when they kept truning down kickable penalties so early in the game after having just gone behind.

From the commentary, it would seem the wind was a problem (O'Gara was kicking into it at that stage) and I think Wales were not kicking them from the same spot in the 2nd half either. He had no problem kicking them from elsewhere.

4?? I wasn't aware we refused 4.. like I said with the first penalty it was worth going for touch, but after that we should have had ROG kicking.. that's pretty shocking decision making actually.

Sin é wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:I must admit I was shocked (but pleased) when they kept truning down kickable penalties so early in the game after having just gone behind.

From the commentary, it would seem the wind was a problem (O'Gara was kicking into it at that stage) and I think Wales were not kicking them from the same spot in the 2nd half either. He had no problem kicking them from elsewhere.

Thanks for that Sin... I had presumed at the time it had to be the wind... but the conundrum was that both he and Priestland kicked two impossible kicks later on.

Nonetheless I think he should have given at least two of them a go. He's successfully kicked under difficult conditions a trillion times.

Hi Nos...again I dont disagree with a lot of what you say but I do disagree that picking O'Gara was the ultimate failure of us being able to spin the ball out to the backline or why we didnt kick the ball through...

1. Kicking just coughs up posession 9 times out of 10. Grubber kicking even more so..which is why it is done rarely. Also Wales were zoned for that as well.
2. Spinning the ball out wide? Not sure how we could have done that becuase Warburton was forcing O'Gara inside (would have done the same for Sexton) and Davies was shooting up as well. Therefore both options were nullified. Even when Sexton came on it was obvious that Wales still just fanned out and we couldnt break them down. Sexton looked lively but also ineffective as O'Gara had been. Just to note you kind of give conflicting arguements in that later in the post you say we spun it wide to early so not sure which argument you are going for?
3. We did have to take them on at the fringe but we didnt. The halfbacks had no inside runners and we were completely static. I refer to how the NZ/Aus 3ns game awhile back. NZ were getting hammered out wide and Aus cut them to shreads, they attacked close in for the second half and controlled the game for a large part of the second half, nearly winning but got suckered by a great Aus try...we didnt do this or are not capable of doing this we are so static...as was mentioned except for Keith Woods its hard to think of an Irish forward who ever did this.RE the rolling maul...you saw what happened in the first half with that!

At the end of the day if you dont win the physicality stakes and the breakdown it becomes a much harder task to win. Of the four QFs this weekend three of them were won by the team that won the physical battle (except for Australia who did show how important the breakdown is). We just got beat up. We had our chances and took the wrong the decisions. We also made some uncharacteristic mistakes.

So I dont believe picking Sexton would have made much of a difference on Saturday. I think starting O'Gara was the correct decision. I do think that at half time that it was time for a change given the type of game. But then I also think that Ryan should have come on (for either Doc or POC and Leamy for Heaslip and Trimble for Kearney.

Nos na Gaoithe wrote:

Sin é wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:I must admit I was shocked (but pleased) when they kept truning down kickable penalties so early in the game after having just gone behind.

From the commentary, it would seem the wind was a problem (O'Gara was kicking into it at that stage) and I think Wales were not kicking them from the same spot in the 2nd half either. He had no problem kicking them from elsewhere.

Thanks for that Sin... I had presumed at the time it had to be the wind... but the conundrum was that both he and Priestland kicked two impossible kicks later on.

Nonetheless I think he should have given at least two of them a go. He's successfully kicked under difficult conditions a trillion times.

Thats fair enough as it was windy but after the first two attempts when the lineout didn't work surely a pot at goal would have been worth a pot, wasn't Halfpennys into the wind?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:4?? I wasn't aware we refused 4.. like I said with the first penalty it was worth going for touch, but after that we should have had ROG kicking.. that's pretty shocking decision making actually.

Have a read back through the first 20 mins here:

http://www1.skysports.com/rugbyworldcup/match/live-commentary/49230/7220125/Ireland-v-Wales-Live

What's very interesting is that the online commentator states at one point that ROG looks like he wants to kick but gets overuled.

Whatever happened there was no way ROG was making those huge decisions all on his own.