Irish Post mortem

First topic message reminder :

This thread is going to be painful and its time the gloves came off so if you dont like it just ignore it. But Im absolutely sick to the back teeth about what I heard tonight all of which blamed the defeat on ROG and Murray. Heres my take on it



1. Lets get one thing straight -Wales have a better team 1 to 15. I only found this out today but its clear. Their strenght and physicality was superior. They owned the break down which is where they won game. Our half backs were under severe pressure and were forced to change there plans at the last second every time. Warburten murdered us here.

2. Roberts absolutely killed us. And it wasnt in the 10 channel. BOD and Darcy are now the most ineffective centres in top tier Interantional rugby. For the second try Darcy shouted at players that he had the blindside covered - by f**k did he.

3. Front row - Irelands front row has been a revelation in the last 6 months and I am loathed to even think about criticising any player here. Cian Healy and Mike Ross have brought Ireland to this top table and simply have been brilliant. Didnt go well today.

4. Back row - Irelands best weapon in the games where we have turned up. One player has been absent - Heaslip. P. O'Mahony now has to be looked at as a replacement. You cant live on reputation. Would SOB have done so well against Australia if they had a natural 7 Pocock playing??? Not a criticism of SOB as he is not a natural 7. I believe you can live without a natural 7 as long as you commit men to the breakdown.

5. ROG and Murray - ROG had a terrible game - two over cooked kicks in the first half lost us good field position. Some sympathy for Murray as the break down was a mess because we didnt commit numbers and failed to secure our own ball. Pack was going backwards at the rate of knots all day. Did Sexton and Reddan make any difference - imo no- reddans first contribution was 2 poor box kicks into mid field and sexton first kick was an aimless kick into mid field which led to the third try.



Why we lost - the game was lost in the pack. Wales totally dominated here slowing down our ball at best and turning it over at best. Everything Preistland touched turned to gold. Roberts was a human wrecking ball.



Reirements


2. BOD great season in 09 for GS but is just falling off tackles now and not making breaks. Possibly move to 12 but I think should now retire

3. ROG - will retire

4.DOC - times up -great servant

5.Darcy - time to step aside - one of Irelands best ever 12s if not the best

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Don't think so - IRFU are doing a big PR job here to try and keep him. Note in the piece below how they are bigging him up about kicking points in Australia game etc. The IRFU do not want him to retire now ... and even O'Gara is saying that he won't let Ireland down if they are stuck.

I think thats the best thing all round. O'Gara and the older players need to remain available for Ireland selection. For one thing it's in their contract and they can't remain at their province as an IQ if they are not available.

However the Irish management should be actively looking to select the younger guys, where they are playing well and where there is a 50/50 call I think they should be erring on the side of youth.

Experience is still important but we need to build the team around players who will be in their prime in 2015 and new leaders are unlikely to emerge with BOD, POC and ROG calling the shots in all the big games.

I disagree, Before the world cup i would have said yes totally, but there leadership let me down a little, the three of them, i still cant believe they didnt take the points in the first half. and it was the three of them making the decision.

Anthony foley was one of the best captains i have seen in ireland in the last while and i rememeber when POC and ROG took over at munster, for a good while they always kicked to the corner, where foley always took the points and won games, the same with BOD at leinster, cullen was a more level headed. These guys back themselves cause they believe in there talent but sometimes a cool head is needed.

Dont know why i brougth that up but i just remember screaming to take the points and thinking anthony foley is losing his shít somewhere watching this

roddersm wrote:

dublin_dave wrote:rog is a very good distributor off both sides agreed. his skip passing is nice but not as effective against the physicality and line speed that the top teams have nowadays. This is as much to do with Darcy and O Driscoll lacking the pace and breaking ability of yesteryear.

That is exactly the point I've been trying to make for the past 6 weeks

I've been back and forth in my own mind on this argument. there definitely needs to be change in the centre and imo Spence looks ahead of most other candidates as regards physicality here. I think Cave is the more all round player at the minute and he is playing 13 which Spence isnt. However long term is think Nevin has more to offer (as a 13) and i think we need to get him playing with and learning from BOD asap. By that logic i am saying that Spence should be starting 13 for Ulster when Paddy comes back.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:
The issue with the career is that invariably when Sexton shines for Leinster, Nacewa is also present. It will be interesting to see how great the Leinster backline will be when Nacewa isn't in the starting lineup.

Even in Sexton's best game of the last year (England), Ireland only scored 3 tries. And his 2nd best game Ireland scored 0 tries (against Australia).

Well lets wait until Nacewa is gone before jumping to conclusions.You're insinuating that it will all suddenly fall apart without anything to back it up.Some people thought we'd struggle when Elsom left but we replaced him and are stronger than ever.I don't see why the same thing won't happen when Nacewa decides to finish up.

Nacewa is staying at Leinster. He was after all (if you believe what your read), the best fullback in Europe (with the added bonus that he can placekick if need be). I think Nathan Hines brought a lot to Leinster's grunt when Elsome left. Very under rated player for Leinster.

Anyway, I didn't say Leinster would fall apart, just that Nacewa is Leinster's most creative player.

Well it's a nice idea for you but just look at the difference in Leinster when Nacewa is playing 10 and when Sexton is there.It's night and day we're so much better.Now I won't argue that Nacewa is a hugely important part of our backline but why do you think Sexton isn't creative too.You are making random points about different players but nothing you say proves that Sexton isn't creative.

And I never said you said Leinster would fall apart I said you insuated that would happen.

Standulstermen wrote:

roddersm wrote:

dublin_dave wrote:rog is a very good distributor off both sides agreed. his skip passing is nice but not as effective against the physicality and line speed that the top teams have nowadays. This is as much to do with Darcy and O Driscoll lacking the pace and breaking ability of yesteryear.

That is exactly the point I've been trying to make for the past 6 weeks

I've been back and forth in my own mind on this argument. there definitely needs to be change in the centre and imo Spence looks ahead of most other candidates as regards physicality here. I think Cave is the more all round player at the minute and he is playing 13 which Spence isnt. However long term is think Nevin has more to offer (as a 13) and i think we need to get him playing with and learning from BOD asap. By that logic i am saying that Spence should be starting 13 for Ulster when Paddy comes back.

Out of interest, why not at 12?

And ... (don't all go crazy!) what about Andrew Trimble at 13? His all round game has improved immensely since his last stint there. He can now kick (a bit) and his pass to Earls for his try against Russia was a real centre's pass? He can kick (a bit) now as well. In the warm-up games he was making good ground and offloading. He just isn't as good a finisher as either Bowe or Earls.

With regards to Anthony Foley always taking the points - I remember that in the HEC Final against Biarritz, Munster turned down several kickable shots at goal.

Foley said that it was done to intimidate Biarrtiz and have them walking to the lineout thinking "Why aren't they taking the points? They must have something planned from this lineout. Oh Poopie!!"

Yeah see axel had a plan for everything, I don't mind going for it once , but after that take the points

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Well it's a nice idea for you but just look at the difference in Leinster when Nacewa is playing 10 and when Sexton is there.It's night and day we're so much better.Now I won't argue that Nacewa is a hugely important part of our backline but why do you think Sexton isn't creative too.You are making random points about different players but nothing you say proves that Sexton isn't creative.

And I never said you said Leinster would fall apart I said you insuated that would happen.

I wasn't saying that Nacewa is a 10. His best position is fullback and is also a comfort blanket in that he can placekick. I wouldn't have Nacewa anywhere other than at fullback, so it will be interesting to see whether Kearney will start. I don't think it any coincidence in that Leinster started scoring tries, Kearney was injured.

I don't think Sexton is creative because now that his game has been analysed, he can't do the wrap-a-round thing anymore. His pass is weak to his RHS as well.

My point is that Ireland with Sexton at OH struggle to score tries. Tomas O'Leary got blamed for that. But I didn't see too many tries scored against (USA - opps, Murray's fault), and Australia (opps, we can't blame Reddan for that, so lets keep the head down on that one).

Its one thing doing it in a final where the sort of emotion going on and mind games is something different.

In a QF or Semi its all about getting over the finishing line because there is another challenge ahead. Its Shannon beating Young Munster 3-0 in a Munster Senior cup QF etc...

Ralph Keyes was interviewed about the 91 game before the WC started and at the end when reminiscing about the try said someone said to him that Shannon wouldnt have lost that game once they went ahead and he said he would bet his house on it....same thing with this....just bad calls.

D24tress wrote:Yeah see axel had a plan for everything, I don't mind going for it once , but after that take the points

Axel was a marvel though at rolling off the back of a scrum to score a try. I also think that David Wallace is fairly unstoppable when he gets within a foot or so of a tryline.

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Well it's a nice idea for you but just look at the difference in Leinster when Nacewa is playing 10 and when Sexton is there.It's night and day we're so much better.Now I won't argue that Nacewa is a hugely important part of our backline but why do you think Sexton isn't creative too.You are making random points about different players but nothing you say proves that Sexton isn't creative.

And I never said you said Leinster would fall apart I said you insuated that would happen.

I wasn't saying that Nacewa is a 10. His best position is fullback and is also a comfort blanket in that he can placekick. I wouldn't have Nacewa anywhere other than at fullback, so it will be interesting to see whether Kearney will start. I don't think it any coincidence in that Leinster started scoring tries, Kearney was injured.

I don't think Sexton is creative because now that his game has been analysed, he can't do the wrap-a-round thing anymore. His pass is weak to his RHS as well.

My point is that Ireland with Sexton at OH struggle to score tries. Tomas O'Leary got blamed for that. But I didn't see too many tries scored against (USA - opps, Murray's fault), and Australia (opps, we can't blame Reddan for that, so lets keep the head down on that one).

Ah right I see,the outhalf is responsible for every try a team scores.Do you see any correlation in the fact that Leinster had a poor backline with no penetration for years when Gaffney was backs coach and Ireland have been in the same boat.Remember now that Leinsters backline flair returned as soon as Gaffney left and Schmidt took over.
Is there any chance that we have a crap backs coach or do you want to blame the whole thing on Sexton.The problem with your line of reasoning is I can't remember one game in the last few years when RoG has started and got the backs moving for all his creativity.

It's a mentality alright, maybe we have been worrying too much about how we look

Sin é wrote:
I don't think Sexton is creative because now that his game has been analysed, he can't do the wrap-a-round thing anymore. His pass is weak to his RHS as well.

My point is that Ireland with Sexton at OH struggle to score tries. Tomas O'Leary got blamed for that. But I didn't see too many tries scored against (USA - opps, Murray's fault), and Australia (opps, we can't blame Reddan for that, so lets keep the head down on that one).

Sorry but that is a load of bollox. How many tries have Australia conceded in this tournament? Answer: Not feckin many.

Australia didn't score against us, does that mean Cooper isn't very creative.

Against the USA we created 6 or 7 scoring chances but only put away 3. Part of that was the weather and the USA's tactics and the other part individual error but certainly we were creating chances, particularly in the 1st half.

Against the USA we created 6 or 7 scoring chances but only put away 3. Part of that was the weather and the USA's tactics and the other part individual error but certainly we were creating chances, particularly in the 1st half.

We kind of did the same against Wales....

Sin é wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:

roddersm wrote:

dublin_dave wrote:rog is a very good distributor off both sides agreed. his skip passing is nice but not as effective against the physicality and line speed that the top teams have nowadays. This is as much to do with Darcy and O Driscoll lacking the pace and breaking ability of yesteryear.

That is exactly the point I've been trying to make for the past 6 weeks

I've been back and forth in my own mind on this argument. there definitely needs to be change in the centre and imo Spence looks ahead of most other candidates as regards physicality here. I think Cave is the more all round player at the minute and he is playing 13 which Spence isnt. However long term is think Nevin has more to offer (as a 13) and i think we need to get him playing with and learning from BOD asap. By that logic i am saying that Spence should be starting 13 for Ulster when Paddy comes back.

Out of interest, why not at 12?

And ... (don't all go crazy!) what about Andrew Trimble at 13? His all round game has improved immensely since his last stint there. He can now kick (a bit) and his pass to Earls for his try against Russia was a real centre's pass? He can kick (a bit) now as well. In the warm-up games he was making good ground and offloading. He just isn't as good a finisher as either Bowe or Earls.

Hi Sin

personally i think he is easier combatted at 12 as he is that much closer to the ruck and the opposition backrow. I think he can break the gainline and indeed make breaks easier further out. Im not sure BOD offers the break option at either 12 or 13 anymore. Im not certain he has the pass for a 12 either. You may say this means he shouldnt start at centre and you may be right i just feel he will learn quickly alongside BOD and his example. I think he would and could be very useful in giving our forwards a target and getting over the gainline from centre. Im not saying he is going to be a crash ball merchant as he does have a decent step and handoff but at the minute i think he can provide a platform.

the beauty of playing for ireland would be he isnt used off every phase like he seems to be for Ulster at present. As regards Trimble i would be loathe to move him. he wont play 13 for ulster given our strength in that area and the reason he is as confident as he is at present is due to the stability the wing spot has given him. For my money he should be fighting it out with bowe and earls and form should be the deciding factor.

DOD wrote:Against the USA we created 6 or 7 scoring chances but only put away 3. Part of that was the weather and the USA's tactics and the other part individual error but certainly we were creating chances, particularly in the 1st half.

We kind of did the same against Wales....

Did we really? I can't think of a single scoring chance other than the one Earls scored and the one where O'Brien got held up. We blew a chance when BOD tried the pick up but we were still a few metres out.

I think Wales were pretty comfortable defending against us to be honest and we created more chances against Australia with less posession.

It appears that a sort of peace has broken out on this thread reading back or is this just a lull in the hostilities?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Well it's a nice idea for you but just look at the difference in Leinster when Nacewa is playing 10 and when Sexton is there.It's night and day we're so much better.Now I won't argue that Nacewa is a hugely important part of our backline but why do you think Sexton isn't creative too.You are making random points about different players but nothing you say proves that Sexton isn't creative.

And I never said you said Leinster would fall apart I said you insuated that would happen.

I wasn't saying that Nacewa is a 10. His best position is fullback and is also a comfort blanket in that he can placekick. I wouldn't have Nacewa anywhere other than at fullback, so it will be interesting to see whether Kearney will start. I don't think it any coincidence in that Leinster started scoring tries, Kearney was injured.

I don't think Sexton is creative because now that his game has been analysed, he can't do the wrap-a-round thing anymore. His pass is weak to his RHS as well.

My point is that Ireland with Sexton at OH struggle to score tries. Tomas O'Leary got blamed for that. But I didn't see too many tries scored against (USA - opps, Murray's fault), and Australia (opps, we can't blame Reddan for that, so lets keep the head down on that one).

Ah right I see,the outhalf is responsible for every try a team scores.Do you see any correlation in the fact that Leinster had a poor backline with no penetration for years when Gaffney was backs coach and Ireland have been in the same boat.Remember now that Leinsters backline flair returned as soon as Gaffney left and Schmidt took over.
Is there any chance that we have a crap backs coach or do you want to blame the whole thing on Sexton.The problem with your line of reasoning is I can't remember one game in the last few years when RoG has started and got the backs moving for all his creativity.

Leinster's backline flair came back when Nacewa moved to fullback - up to that Leinster were winning their games with the forwards (Racing metro - 3 forward tries). The Saracens game was defence & penalties (+ a Sexton try). Beating Munster in the Aviva (Sean O'Brien offload to BOD & penalties). When Kearney got injured and Nacewa became the starting fullback, Leinster started scoring a lot more tries by their backs. Shane Horgan has had one of his best seasons in a long time. He didn't get the first of his 9 tries last year until the middle of November.

Against Aus we had very few scoring chances...

Against Wales we had a number of chances...your point about Wales defending well sums it up.

But it was the same when ROG was on or Sexton...even when Wales were just sitting back at that stage we couldnt do anything.

I suppose the fact that Sexton was injured and didn't play until 60 minutes into the game against Munster in the Aviva doesn't matter.We looked like a team transformed the minute he came on.
Muntser haven't been a real threat with their backs since Rua Tipoki left yet you don't single out RoG as not being creative enough.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I don't think Sexton is creative because now that his game has been analysed, he can't do the wrap-a-round thing anymore. His pass is weak to his RHS as well.

My point is that Ireland with Sexton at OH struggle to score tries. Tomas O'Leary got blamed for that. But I didn't see too many tries scored against (USA - opps, Murray's fault), and Australia (opps, we can't blame Reddan for that, so lets keep the head down on that one).

Sorry but that is a load of bollox. How many tries have Australia conceded in this tournament? Answer: Not feckin many.

Australia didn't score against us, does that mean Cooper isn't very creative.

Against the USA we created 6 or 7 scoring chances but only put away 3. Part of that was the weather and the USA's tactics and the other part individual error but certainly we were creating chances, particularly in the 1st half.

For the record - tries conceeded in the group stages (top 10 countries).

New Zealand 6
France 9
England 1
Argentina 3
Scotland 4
Ireland 3
AUSTRALIA 4
SA 2
Wales 4
Italy 11

Australia's defence was much of a muchness with Wales where we did manage to score a try.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:I suppose the fact that Sexton was injured and didn't play until 60 minutes into the game against Munster in the Aviva doesn't matter.We looked like a team transformed the minute he came on.
Muntser haven't been a real threat with their backs since Rua Tipoki left yet you don't single out RoG as not being creative enough.

Ah, Leinster won that game in the Aviva.

The 08-09 season (Rua injured), Munster scored 49 tries in the Magners, just one try less than when Leinster had Joe Schmidt coaching them last season when Leinster scored 50.

Edit: 10 of those 49 were from Rua's replacement, Earls.

Whats your point,you still haven't had a threatening backline since then.I will amend that statement as I think your back 3 is currently one of the best in Europe and look very dangerous on the counter attack.Unfortunately your 10,12 and 13 aren't good enough to release them properly.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Whats your point,you still haven't had a threatening backline since then.I will amend that statement as I think your back 3 is currently one of the best in Europe and look very dangerous on the counter attack.Unfortunately your 10,12 and 13 aren't good enough to release them properly.

I responded to your original claim that "Muntser haven't been a real threat with their backs since Rua Tipoki left yet which is obviously not true.

I'm not the one who is claiming that ROG is the greatest thing at releasing a backline since the slice pan was invented.
You are the one who keeps claiming that Sexton is.

Lol no I'm not,you are the one who's claiming he's not creative.I'm pointing out he is.You give Nacewa all the credit for Leinsters good back play and no credit to Sexton which is ridiculous.
The reason the RoG comparison comes up is because of one thing.If Sexton is the problem in Irelands backline not scoring tries why then does RoG being there not change things?

Honestly I think everyone needs to stop criticising our flyhalfs.. as I've said, there is no creativity in the midfield regardless, Ireland just aren't playing creative, attack-minded rugby.

The sooner Spence, McFadden, Marshall etc come through the better.

Funny, I think Spence would make a superb 12 for Ireland. He is big and strong, a decent passer and, with his soccer background, is a capable kicker. Defence is also good (if Kiss can cut out the high challenges) and he, as has been stated here, punches big holes in the opposition midfield. When he plays at 13 for Ulster he tends to get very flat to his inside man and the outcome is that he doesn't get very far when he gets the ball. At 12 this wouldn't be as much of an issue. I think that D'Arcy may have had his last game for Ireland, but O'Driscoll should stick around to shepherd Spence through for a year. As backup I would rather see Cave, a proper 13, rather than Earls or Bowe. Unlike Spence, Cave maintains his depth and opens up more of the field for the men outside in attack. I don't think defence has ever been a problem for Cave.

Spence's pace and directness is wasted at 12 imo. He isn't a good enough passer or distributor for a 12, and he is simply used as a crash ball merchant here. If he focuses on his offloading skills he could be a sublime outside centre in the future. He is definitely more of a 13.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Lol no I'm not,you are the one who's claiming he's not creative.I'm pointing out he is.You give Nacewa all the credit for Leinsters good back play and no credit to Sexton which is ridiculous.
The reason the RoG comparison comes up is because of one thing.If Sexton is the problem in Irelands backline not scoring tries why then does RoG being there not change things?

Ireland usually score a couple of tries with ROG as outhalf. LOL.
(Note the difference between the two starters against Italy. Sexton started the 6Ns and ROG started the world cup game).

Earls scored the try against Wales when ROG was on. Both Phillips & Davies tries were scored when ROG was gone off. Same thing happened in the 6Ns. As soon as ROG went off Phillips scored as well.

Ireland got a couple of tries against Italy in the World cup with ROG at oh.

http://soundcloud.com/off-the-ball/go-on-then

very good

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Spence's pace and directness is wasted at 12 imo. He isn't a good enough passer or distributor for a 12, and he is simply used as a crash ball merchant here. If he focuses on his offloading skills he could be a sublime outside centre in the future. He is definitely more of a 13.

Totally agree. Spence doesnt have a kicking game. The only time i have seen him kick well is when he controlled d'arcys pass against Treviso last year for a score. He isnt a great passer either. The difference between him and marshall when they make a break is stark. He could be an exceptional 13 though.

FitzStephen wrote:Funny, I think Spence would make a superb 12 for Ireland. He is big and strong, a decent passer and, with his soccer background, is a capable kicker. Defence is also good (if Kiss can cut out the high challenges) and he, as has been stated here, punches big holes in the opposition midfield. When he plays at 13 for Ulster he tends to get very flat to his inside man and the outcome is that he doesn't get very far when he gets the ball. At 12 this wouldn't be as much of an issue. I think that D'Arcy may have had his last game for Ireland, but O'Driscoll should stick around to shepherd Spence through for a year. As backup I would rather see Cave, a proper 13, rather than Earls or Bowe. Unlike Spence, Cave maintains his depth and opens up more of the field for the men outside in attack. I don't think defence has ever been a problem for Cave.

Couldn't have articulated it better myself.

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Lol no I'm not,you are the one who's claiming he's not creative.I'm pointing out he is.You give Nacewa all the credit for Leinsters good back play and no credit to Sexton which is ridiculous.
The reason the RoG comparison comes up is because of one thing.If Sexton is the problem in Irelands backline not scoring tries why then does RoG being there not change things?

Ireland usually score a couple of tries with ROG as outhalf. LOL.
(Note the difference between the two starters against Italy. Sexton started the 6Ns and ROG started the world cup game).

Earls scored the try against Wales when ROG was on. Both Phillips & Davies tries were scored when ROG was gone off. Same thing happened in the 6Ns. As soon as ROG went off Phillips scored as well.

Ireland got a couple of tries against Italy in the World cup with ROG at oh.

What a load of crap,RoG had nothing to do with Earls try.The fact is that at this world cup Sexton started in the most significant win in Irish history in the professional era.RoG started in the most disappointing defeat.

What about the 6 Nations match against Italy where Sexton went off and Italy scored a try.
Try to be consistent when you compare the two.Irelands best results since the grand slam have all been when Sexton started,S.A. 2009,England and Oz 2011 all with Sexton starting.The fact is those are the only decent results in this time and that's an indictment of how poor we've been but RoG has been no better than Sexton.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMQMSm9jFHs

For anyone that thinks Spence doesn't have good hands and is just a bosh merchant.

Definitely don't think he is a bosh merchant. He doesn't have the vision/skills/handling for 12 though. I mentioned that inside ball he gave in another thread to show how good his rugby brain is, though that doesn't mean he should play 12.

There is a reason Spence hasn't been as effective this season as last season. His skills are wasted at 12, and moving him from his best position to accommodate Cave I hope will not ruin his development for the future.

You could also say irelands worst defeats were when Sexton came on...wales (twice this year is just one example). Who started those games against sa and aus in the past that we won, who was oh in 09 for the gs (or do gs not count anymore).

Yeah pre summer 2009 RoG was a better oh than Sexton,no dispute here.What relevance does that have.
I'm not trying to put RoG down,I happen to think he and Sexton are very close and form is the decider in who should be starting oh for Ireland.I just find the inconsistent criticism of Sexton hard to listen to.

Yeah fair enough i think we all need to park this before we all go loopy

I won't park it as long as Sin keeps up his spiel.He wins these arguments because people get tired of pointing out why he's wrong and then he completely changes tack without addressing the point.

For example the post where he says Ireland usually score a couple of tries when RoG plays.No stats to back it up and even if he does have stats he won't take the level of opposition or the overall performance of the team in the game as a factor.Like the difference with Italy in the WC and the 6N.Does he really think RoG starting at OH was the reason we won so convincingly or does the fact the entire team were playing at a different level from the spring not have anything to do with it.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Lol no I'm not,you are the one who's claiming he's not creative.I'm pointing out he is.You give Nacewa all the credit for Leinsters good back play and no credit to Sexton which is ridiculous.
The reason the RoG comparison comes up is because of one thing.If Sexton is the problem in Irelands backline not scoring tries why then does RoG being there not change things?

Ireland usually score a couple of tries with ROG as outhalf. LOL.
(Note the difference between the two starters against Italy. Sexton started the 6Ns and ROG started the world cup game).

Earls scored the try against Wales when ROG was on. Both Phillips & Davies tries were scored when ROG was gone off. Same thing happened in the 6Ns. As soon as ROG went off Phillips scored as well.

Ireland got a couple of tries against Italy in the World cup with ROG at oh.

What a load of crap,RoG had nothing to do with Earls try.The fact is that at this world cup Sexton started in the most significant win in Irish history in the professional era.RoG started in the most disappointing defeat.

What about the 6 Nations match against Italy where Sexton went off and Italy scored a try.
Try to be consistent when you compare the two.Irelands best results since the grand slam have all been when Sexton started,S.A. 2009,England and Oz 2011 all with Sexton starting.The fact is those are the only decent results in this time and that's an indictment of how poor we've been but RoG has been no better than Sexton.

ROG was the OH who was on the pitch when Earls scored. No one scored a try when Sexton was on. How come Sexton couldn't get the Irish backline moving (which is meant to be the reason why Sexton should be first choice.

Sexton has had 3 times the starts that O'Gara has since the GS. Sexton has 24 caps and you can only think of 1 meaningless game (england) and against Oz (where O'Gara was the OH for 30 minutes of the game). We've had some fairly low points in his 24 caps as well. Losing to Scotland and nearly losing to Italy among them when Sexton was the starting OH. Ireland has been very poor since Sexton has become OH.

And can I repeat - I'm not claiming that ROG is the be-all and end-all of OHs - just that the things that Sexton is lauded for (i.e., getting the backline moving) - he is no better than O'Gara.

Sin é wrote:

And can I repeat - I'm not claiming that ROG is the be-all and end-all of OHs - just that the things that Sexton is lauded for (i.e., getting the backline moving) - he is no better than O'Gara.

If that was what you were saying then I'd agree but you have been saying he can't get a backline moving.That's a completely different statement than he's no better than O'Gara.
I happen to think O'Gara is slightly better at it as he has a better pass but I don't think there is much in it.You have been posting in a way that suggests Sexton is no use whatsoever.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:I won't park it as long as Sin keeps up his spiel.He wins these arguments because people get tired of pointing out why he's wrong and then he completely changes tack without addressing the point.

For example the post where he says Ireland usually score a couple of tries when RoG plays.No stats to back it up and even if he does have stats he won't take the level of opposition or the overall performance of the team in the game as a factor.Like the difference with Italy in the WC and the 6N.Does he really think RoG starting at OH was the reason we won so convincingly or does the fact the entire team were playing at a different level from the spring not have anything to do with it.

OK, some stats for you in the last few games

Wales: Sexton OH = 0. O'Gara: 1.
Italy: Sexton OH=1. O'Gara: 2
Russia: Sexton OH=2. O'Gara: 7. (by the way 6 of O'Gara's tries were scored by backs. Both the Sexton's tries were scored by forwards).
Australia: Sexton = 0. O'Gara = 0.
USA: Sexton = 1. O'Gara = 2.

World cup totals: Sexton 4. O'Gara 12.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

And can I repeat - I'm not claiming that ROG is the be-all and end-all of OHs - just that the things that Sexton is lauded for (i.e., getting the backline moving) - he is no better than O'Gara.

If that was what you were saying then I'd agree but you have been saying he can't get a backline moving.That's a completely different statement than he's no better than O'Gara.
I happen to think O'Gara is slightly better at it as he has a better pass but I don't think there is much in it.You have been posting in a way that suggests Sexton is no use whatsoever.

I don't think Sexton is much use getting the backline moving. I rate him as a defender - thats about it.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:There is a reason Spence hasn't been as effective this season as last season. His skills are wasted at 12, and moving him from his best position to accommodate Cave I hope will not ruin his development for the future.

Two points on that Rory. Ulster are missing a lot of players so it's unfair to make the comparison between this season and last. The second point is that how do you define effective? At 12 he is not going to score as many tries or find himself in as much space. However what he is doing is getting over the gainline with the ball and also drawing defenders to create space for Cave and Gilroy. That to me is every bit as important and effective as making eye catching runs and scoring tries.

I'm surprised Whitten hasn't got more of a mention. He's a big lad and has been playing very well for Ulster, albeit on the wing. He could yet have a big future but maybe needs to move else where for more gametime.

Sin é wrote:
OK, some stats for you in the last few games

Wales: Sexton OH = 0. O'Gara: 1.
Italy: Sexton OH=1. O'Gara: 2
Russia: Sexton OH=2. O'Gara: 7. (by the way 6 of O'Gara's tries were scored by backs. Both the Sexton's tries were scored by forwards).
Australia: Sexton = 0. O'Gara = 0.
USA: Sexton = 1. O'Gara = 2.

World cup totals: Sexton 4. O'Gara 12.

What a load of irrelevent gumph.

The only stat that needs pointing out is that with Sexton starting this season we have beaten Australia, England and Argentina.

With ROG starting we have lost to Wales * 2 and haven't beaten a top 8 ranked side. In fact the last victory against a top 8 side with ROG at the helm was against France
in 2009.

I have no doubt ROG can still do a job at International level but over 80 minutes he is simply not able to execute the type of gameplan we need to beat the very top sides. As an impact player he can bring a bit of urgency or composure but He is far too limited and predictable a player to trouble the top sides over 80 min.

It is a problem for Munster and it is a problem for Ireland.

The Leinster v Munster match in Lansdowne in a few weeks is going to be tasty.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
OK, some stats for you in the last few games

Wales: Sexton OH = 0. O'Gara: 1.
Italy: Sexton OH=1. O'Gara: 2
Russia: Sexton OH=2. O'Gara: 7. (by the way 6 of O'Gara's tries were scored by backs. Both the Sexton's tries were scored by forwards).
Australia: Sexton = 0. O'Gara = 0.
USA: Sexton = 1. O'Gara = 2.

World cup totals: Sexton 4. O'Gara 12.

What a load of irrelevent gumph.

The only stat that needs pointing out is that with Sexton starting this season we have beaten Australia, England and Argentina.

With ROG starting we have lost to Wales * 2 and haven't beaten a top 8 ranked side. In fact the last victory against a top 8 side with ROG at the helm was against France
in 2009.

I have no doubt ROG can still do a job at International level but over 80 minutes he is simply not able to execute the type of gameplan we need to beat the very top sides. As an impact player he can bring a bit of urgency or composure but He is far too limited and predictable a player to trouble the top sides over 80 min.

It is a problem for Munster and it is a problem for Ireland.

Read the post where I was requested to supply the above information before sticking your oar in

I never really understood the term “he gets the backline moving”. Surely the role of an outhalf is to dictate the style of play of the entire team. If the forwards score 4 tires off lineout mauls then the OH can take some of the credit for putting them into position. If the backs score 4 tries from sublime offloading off first phase then the OH can take credit for starting the move.

Leinster scored 27 tires in the HC last year, 15 through the backs, 12 through the forwards. Does that mean that Sexton is better at getting the most from his backs? Probably not, no stat could prove that. Also, he scored 4 of them himself so I’d say he hardly stifles a backline.

Rodders/Asore

The problem is those of us who agree with Sin é regarding ROG will agree with him and those who dont wont.

The facts that Sin é provides back up his arguement, at the end of the day you are trying to use your opinions of ROG as fact. The stats dont back up that arguement. Maybe thats why Sin é wins all these arguements.

You say ROG is not a good attacking OH and doesnt get his backline moving....stats say otherwise. Even his own try scoring record is quite good.

Rodders - no one in Munster thinks ROG is a problem for Munster thanks.

The facts are that it is in midfield where our main problems are in addition to the fact that Sexton needs to start playing better and more consistently.

Neither is anyone saying ROG is the future... the reason these arguements are happening is that some on here seem to lay our problems in the QF at OH, some us would tend to disagree, a quick review of the game would see that we had more fundamental issues.

Sin é is just backing up his arguement better with some figures which always help.

Mickado wrote:I never really understood the term “he gets the backline moving”. Surely the role of an outhalf is to dictate the style of play of the entire team. If the forwards score 4 tires off lineout mauls then the OH can take some of the credit for putting them into position. If the backs score 4 tries from sublime offloading off first phase then the OH can take credit for starting the move.

Leinster scored 27 tires in the HC last year, 15 through the backs, 12 through the forwards. Does that mean that Sexton is better at getting the most from his backs? Probably not, no stat could prove that. Also, he scored 4 of them himself so I’d say he hardly stifles a backline.

Couldn't agree more with you about 'this backline moving milarky" (that must be a first ).

I also agree with you that its up to the OH to dictate how the team plays and this is where I think Sexton comes up short, though he has improved his game management.

IMO its Nacewa as fullback who "gets the Leinster backs" moving (I don't think he works as well from the wing - we'll see what happens when Kearney is back).

Scoring a lot of tries himself isn't getting his backs moving! Ian Humphreys is regarded at doing this well, but I don't think he scores a lot of tries himself.