Connachts Departees

Last season saw Connacht lose several of their best players - Fionn Carr (winger), Sean Cronin (hooker), Ian Keatley (flyhalf), Jamie Hagan (tighthead prop). All were guaranteed first choice players.

On Friday night, we saw Connacht play their hearts out against Aviva Premiership Harlequins leaders in London. By contrast Ian Keatley sat on a bench for the whole match, Fionn Carr and Jamie Hagan weren't involved in European Rugby and were playing for the Leinster 2nd XV. Sean Cronin came off the bench but wasn't deemed good enough to start the game.

Was it a good move for them?

Going to Leinster has been a disaster for Carr really, hes not getting a look in. Cronin and Keatley worked out quite well.

Keatley was never going to be thrown into the starting role immediately. Carr shouldn't have gone. Cronin and Keatley are the two successful moves.

Yes and no. It's not really possible to tell based on one HEC weekend, maybe they'll play next week?

Probably good for them in the long run, just not this week.

You could ask they same thing about McCrea, left his province for Conacht, but couldn't get a game yesterday.

Would Carr even have started for Connacht? Vainikolo didn't make the squad. O'Halloran is developing well in Carr's place.

greybeard wrote:Yes and no. It's not really possible to tell based on one HEC weekend, maybe they'll play next week?

Probably good for them in the long run, just not this week.

You could ask they same thing about McCrea, left his province for Conacht, but couldn't get a game yesterday.

Would Carr even have started for Connacht? Vainikolo didn't make the squad. O'Halloran is developing well in Carr's place.

Ulster looked like they might get Carr for a while as well, where he might be getting game time and yes he would be starting for Connacht without a shadow of a doubt.

Connacht would definitely profit from the return of Hagan and Keatley, but they are also getting some depth in the backs. Jarvis, McCrea and Tonetti all played for Connachts A team yesterday, Matthews has Ireland A caps and is still to return, McSharry has seemingly come out of nowhere.

Cronin impressed and scored yesterday, the next chapter of his career is off to a good start. I'm sure he's happy and benefitting from new ideas. ROG was always going to play the full game yesterday. But Keatley will get his chance.

You could ask the same thing about McCrea, but the difference is that he was even further down the pecking order at Ulster. He, Anderson and Niall O'Connor will get more gametime at Connacht. Cronin, Keatley et al will likely get less at their new provinces. Only time will tell, but I think certainly in the case of someone like Carr, it was a naive move

McCrea left Ulster because he wasnt getting a look in up here. He has started a few games for Connacht so he has seen more rugby than he would have.

Who was leinsters TH backup at the weekend? mcGrath? I have heard some leinster folk say that hagan is (or was) in really poor shape. It took Mike Ross a while to get in the Leinster team remember so all is not lost on that one.

carr has had a nightmare imo as i think his career will stall. Why wouldnt you play Conway in the heineken instead of him (i would be thinking if i was a leinster coach).

keatley will learn from ROG and will get gametime i think.

Is there any possibility that Munster could pick up Carr next season? With the overseas players going down to four plus project soon, they will need to make a change somewhere. Dougie is 33 and joined in 2008, and while he is still bloody awesome his age could be a factor (as it was with Hines at Leinster). He could easily get a contract in a Top 14 side. Does anybody know when his deal is up?

Could Connacht afford to hold onto Keatley, Carr, Cronin and Hagan? There run on a shoe string as it is.

FitzStephen wrote:Is there any possibility that Munster could pick up Carr next season? With the overseas players going down to four plus project soon, they will need to make a change somewhere. Dougie is 33 and joined in 2008, and while he is still bloody awesome his age could be a factor (as it was with Hines at Leinster). He could easily get a contract in a Top 14 side. Does anybody know when his deal is up?

Dougie is on a 1 year contract. I think the situation is that overseas players over the age of 30 cannot be given more than 1 year (unless you are a prop). Clermont gave Hines a 2 year one (not bad for a 35 year old). Similar issue with Warwick. I think Dougie is backing himself that he will be offered a contract if he looks after himself - and yes, he is an awesome player.

Munster are obviously not interested in Carr. Would have gone for him before now if they were. Might have their eye on some of the Leinster backs like Kearney the younger. Or maybe Tommy Bowe might want to come back - he won't be needed in Ulster.

Edit: I should have mentioned that Munster have Simon Zebo coming through as well which would make things difficult for Carr at Munster.

Sin é wrote:
Munster are obviously not interested in Carr. Would have gone for him before now if they were. Might have their eye on some of the Leinster backs like Kearney the younger.

Hands off,you already got the next Irish fullback from us ,isn't that enough for yis?

On a more serious note I think you should look to get a back row from Leinster,McLoughlin or Ruddock if he doesn't establish himself this year.I think they'd add good depth for you and we can afford to lose one of them.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Could Connacht afford to hold onto Keatley, Carr, Cronin and Hagan? There run on a shoe string as it is.

They were brought up to the same level of funding as the other provinces last year, and they've increased sponsorship with Mazda. I'd say they would have been able to do it without too much trouble.

Whatever about the 4 players leaving the IRFU were sure to have suggested (implicitly or explicity) that they would be better off with HEC matches. That's backfired after we won the Heineken last year.

Have to say, I always thought the Carr signing was a funny one. Leinster don't really need him. (Fitz, Nacewa, Shaggy, Kearn-dashians, Conway etc)
Likelihood is he will only get game time in the lesser Rabo games when other players are being rested.
I accept he has given himself a challenge and could be praised for looking to take a step up at Leinster, but surely he would be better starting for Connacht in the HC than not even warming the bench for Leinster.

Where is the line for a player between ambitious and delusional ?

Did he know before he signed that Connacht would be in the H Cup? Assume not, as I believe it was only when leinster won the H Cup that Connacht got their spot? (Sorry - answering my own question there maybe).

As to the article,I think Cronin and Keatley are fine they'll both get a lot of game time this year.Hagan should be disappointed,he needs to be stepping up as wasting away in the Leinster reserves is no use to hima t this stage.

Carr moving to Leinster was a terrible move,he was useful when the World Cup was going on but now he's out in the cold and Horgan isn't even back yet.I think he'll struggle to play in any of the big games this season.

HURLEY_BURLEY wrote:Have to say, I always thought the Carr signing was a funny one. Leinster don't really need him. (Fitz, Nacewa, Shaggy, Kearn-dashians, Conway etc)
Likelihood is he will only get game time in the lesser Rabo games when other players are being rested.
I accept he has given himself a challenge and could be praised for looking to take a step up at Leinster, but surely he would be better starting for Connacht in the HC than not even warming the bench for Leinster.

Where is the line for a player between ambitious and delusional ?

Did he know before he signed that Connacht would be in the H Cup? Assume not, as I believe it was only when leinster won the H Cup that Connacht got their spot? (Sorry - answering my own question there maybe).

He didn't know, but apparently wanted to stay with Connacht after getting nowhere with anyone else. But by that time Vainikolo was signed and the budget was spent.

Don't think it was delusional, he has been consistently one of the highest scorers in the Pro12/magners for the last few years, he backed himself. Just because it's not working out now doesn't mean it won't work out in the long run.

greybeard wrote:

HURLEY_BURLEY wrote:Have to say, I always thought the Carr signing was a funny one. Leinster don't really need him. (Fitz, Nacewa, Shaggy, Kearn-dashians, Conway etc)
Likelihood is he will only get game time in the lesser Rabo games when other players are being rested.
I accept he has given himself a challenge and could be praised for looking to take a step up at Leinster, but surely he would be better starting for Connacht in the HC than not even warming the bench for Leinster.

Where is the line for a player between ambitious and delusional ?

Did he know before he signed that Connacht would be in the H Cup? Assume not, as I believe it was only when leinster won the H Cup that Connacht got their spot? (Sorry - answering my own question there maybe).

He didn't know, but apparently wanted to stay with Connacht after getting nowhere with anyone else. But by that time Vainikolo was signed and the budget was spent.

Don't think it was delusional, he has been consistently one of the highest scorers in the Pro12/magners for the last few years, he backed himself. Just because it's not working out now doesn't mean it won't work out in the long run.

Yeah greybeard - I am not calling HIM delusional. It is a rhetorical question really, and posed to reflect the dilemma a lot of players face when deciding to move from a perceived smaller club/province (no offence Connacht).
He looks like a real talent in the early Rabo games I have been at. One of those players who gets the crowd on their feet and buzzing when he gets the ball. Still question marks over his defence. Would like to see him get a run. But when will that happen??

Tbh if there was an injury to kearney, fitz or nacewa I would rather Carr played in any key games than Dave Kearney(although he has improved a lot over the last season) or any of the others.
I think He looked really good in the few rabo games I've seen.

White was the TH cover at the weekend mcgraths a loose head isn't he? Don't understand the hype over hagan apart from the fact that he's Irish and plays tighthead. Might be good long term though.

How long is Hayes contracted for? Looking forward to seeing more of archer.

Are the NIQ spots being lowered for sure?

I think 5 plus one is about right, to enable competive teams, and the NIQ players signed have to be agreed with the IRFU.

Less may mean weaker teams, or creating weaknessess, we are already developing, more players than we can place in all the teams. Let us keep the cream, and add quality NIQ.

Connacht I don't think are on a shoestring budget anymore, Keatly will get a central contact in a year or two anyway. Carr should have stayed in Connacht, he'll speand most on this year out on the Leinster team and be luckly to get a bench spot. He's on a one year contract, it'll be intresting to see what he does next year, as Leinster won't give him a contract, either back to Connacht or move to England are his options, (don't see another Celtic team using a Non Welsh/Scottish/Italian spot for him. [altough Dragons took J Smith]), France have plenty of wingers, maybe a lower French team, or English team, better to go back to Connacht.

Anyone know what Connacht would have to do to retain their HC spot for next yr?
Other than win the thing of course.

Not be the 4th place province in the Pro12

or

Any of the provinces win the Heineken

or

Any of the provinces drop to the Amlin and win that.

Connacht need to either finish Celtic league above one of Leinster, Munster or Ulster, or an Irish team wins either the H-cup, or Amlin cup.

HURLEY_BURLEY wrote:Anyone know what Connacht would have to do to retain their HC spot for next yr?
Other than win the thing of course.

If any Irish team wins the HC or the Amlin Cup Connacht are in.
Failing that they’d have to finish above 1 Irish team in the Pro12.

I think this common all over and is a problem for smaller clubs...

Young players performing well then get izzy headed and lured in by the bigger clubs when they should be avised to stay for another season and keep their head down and learn their game...getting lots of gametime....

Instead they move on and get spelks at bigger clubs....and their development is drastically reduced.

Thanks for the info lads.
So they are really relying on Leinster to win the Heineken Cup again, or for Munster to have a crack at the Amlin?

The problem with Carr is he wasn't lured by a big club at all. He shopped himself around and almost ended up with no contract whatsoever.

Blame the player.... or blame the agent?

HURLEY_BURLEY wrote:Thanks for the info lads.
So they are really relying on Leinster to win the Heineken Cup again, or for Munster to have a crack at the Amlin?

That's not fair and you know it. They don't mind if it's Munster or Ulster that win the Amlin

greybeard wrote:

HURLEY_BURLEY wrote:Thanks for the info lads.
So they are really relying on Leinster to win the Heineken Cup again, or for Munster to have a crack at the Amlin?

That's not fair and you know it. They don't mind if it's Munster or Ulster that win the Amlin

To be honest, Connacht should really be looking to earn the right themselves. Either finish 3rd best province, or win the Amlin.
I guess they need time to get up to speed as they have been treated like 2nd class citizens by the IRFU til fairly recently.

I'm sure the team are looking to earn it for themselves, Elwood certainly will be.

To be fair to Carr, he did stay with Connacht long enough, was they're top player for a bout 3 years, (when people say a player should stay one more year and then go - Carr did his one more year, twice, before leaving) can't blame him for wanting to try a crack at one of the bigger clubs.

I hope that if/when Leinster don't give him a contract next year he'll be content that he tryed, and return to Connacht a happy player endevioring to push them on.

greybeard wrote:I'm sure the team are looking to earn it for themselves, Elwood certainly will be.

You got me there.

To be fair this year Connacht don't really have a chance to qualify for next year themselves, to finish above another province will mean finish 3rd in the table, and to win the Amlin means finishing 2nd in there group and getting one of the Almin spots.

only slighty harder than one of these two options is to just go on and win the H-cup themselves.

Fell sorry for Connacht that its so hard for them to get into h-cup, yet Aironi get in no problems.

greybeard wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Could Connacht afford to hold onto Keatley, Carr, Cronin and Hagan? There run on a shoe string as it is.

They were brought up to the same level of funding as the other provinces last year, and they've increased sponsorship with Mazda. I'd say they would have been able to do it without too much trouble.

Whatever about the 4 players leaving the IRFU were sure to have suggested (implicitly or explicity) that they would be better off with HEC matches. That's backfired after we won the Heineken last year.

The funding might be broadly similar, and Mazda might chip in an extra bob, but those four players would be on how much? I don't think (outside of the home HEC games) they get the bums on seats to support that extra spend. Would it be €400k+ between the four of them per year?

Don't underestimate how much Mazda have improved Connacht's lot. Their deal with Bank of Ireland was worth €300K over three years (apparently), with Mazda it's €1.5m over three years (again apparently) Can't remember where I read that, though.

That's a hefty whack and definitely helped them to get players like Naoupu back. His contract in Japan was worth €250k.

Kingshu wrote:Fell sorry for Connacht that its so hard for them to get into h-cup, yet Aironi get in no problems.

And, crucially, Aironi get ERC ranking points every single year, even if they lose every match. The ranking system needs an overhaul.

Yeah I said this once before,I'd like to see the same ranking points as now but a multiplier depending on what year the points were earned.
eg. 2011 x4 2010 x3 2009 x2 2008 x1.
So Leinster get 2011 44 pts,2010 21pts,2009 22pts,2008 2pts. A total of 89 pts.

Going through the rankings the 1st major change you notice is Northampton jump to 4th in the rankings due to 2 strong years in a row.

I also think it sorts out an imbalance.Muntser this year get 11 points for winning the Heino in 2008,thats the same as Leinster get for winning it last year.That doesn't seem right.Also Munster are now guaranteed to drop in the rankings unless they win the Heino again.The cut off in points is too harsh,recent results aren't rewarded enough and old results are valued too highly.

Apropos of the original question, was it a good move for the 4 musketeers (just made that up, feel free to use it) there is a very good article in the IT today that touches on the subject.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/1116/1224307634600.html

There has been a few tears shed over the departure of their main strike runner and best finisher of the last three years Fionn Carr, to Leinster, which Millard describes as a “bizarre decision in my eyes. It’s one thing to put on a Leinster tracksuit but if you’re not playing, you can get lost in the system – and I’ve seen it happen in Australia. In Eric Elwood, you’ve got someone who looks after these kids better than anyone I’ve ever worked with.”

While Millard can “sort of understand” why Ian Keatley opted to understudy Ronan O’Gara at Munster, he looks at Carr playing for Blackrock and Jamie Hagan on the Leinster bench “when they could be playing this stuff” and deduces “sometimes it’s better the devil you know”.

The rest of the article is quite good, some serious ambition comes through. (Although comparing Griffin to Adam Ashley-Cooper is a bit premature)

Quote of the week:

he recalls trying to work [Toulouse's game plan] out in advance with ... Gareth Thomas, who said: “Don’t bother. They won’t know themselves until kick-off.”

How very French.

Really good article. It looks like exciting times at Connacht. O'Halloran and Griffin seem like really exciting players with genuine Ireland potential.

Carr only has a one year contract at Leinster. So he mightgo back to Connacht?

If he has any sense he'll keep his options open. Scotland, Wales, England, France and Munster are all realistic destinations for him.

When the NIQ quota is reduced next year he might be in demand. Danielli in Ulster, Howlett at Munster, maybe even Vainikolo at Connacht (if their quota is reduced as well) might all find themselves on the wrong end of the bean counters.

He's obviously a Leinster boy who wants to wear the Leinster shirt, but teaming up with Keatley might be a good draw for him.

He had an opportunity to come to Ulster last season, if I recall and didn't want to so I doubt if he'll end up up here.

I don't think Carr is good enough to start at any of the provinces bar Connacht to be honest.

He could give Denis Hurley, Johne Murphy and Simon Zebo a fair run for their money though.

It's all about depth, though. A very good option to have. Which is what's going on at Leinster.

I think the Blackrock appearances are being blown out of proportion. He'll get plenty of games in the Pro12 this season.

He tweeted that he was happy with his decision last week (was getting a bit of stick)

red_stag wrote:He could give Denis Hurley, Johne Murphy and Simon Zebo a fair run for their money though.

No more than he could Kearney jr, Fitzgerald, McFadden etc. same at Ulster with Payne, Trims, Gilroy, D'arcy, Whitten and Gaston.

He'd be as well just staying where he is otherwise if he wants to play more he'll need to go back to Connacht with his tail between his legs or look further afield.

He'll benefit from new coaches, new ideas and new team mates. I don't think leaving Connacht was that bad a decision. He knew he would have competition and it would have been a bit cowardly to stay where he was.

I don't think the move to Leinster was the right move, but I can't blame Carr for trying.

He gave Connacht 3 good years, time was right to try and move up and try getting into a bigger team.

I really don't know what next year holds for him, don't see Leinster extending his stay, Connacht may want him back, don't see him wanted by Munster or Ulster, and don't think he's quality enough for another pro 12 team to use up a forgien player spot for him. really leaves just Connacht, England or France, and French and English teams weren't going in for him, when he said he was leaving Connacht.

I think cowardly is the wrong word. Connacht wanted him to stay, Ulster wanted him and Leinster didn't particularly (hence the one year deal).

He's backed himself by snubbing Connacht and Ulster and now needs to deliver. So far it looks as if he hasn't.

I meant cowardly from the point of view of staying with a team because there would be competition for places elsewhere.

He has had it all his own way when he was with Connacht, I'm glad to see he has the ambition to try to force his way into the Leinster team. This is a guy who would have international aspirations, so breaking into a clubs first team shouldn't scare him.

Connacht did't want him to leave, but by the time he thought about staying they'd already signed Vainikolo. I think Ulster were secretly holding out hope of getting Bowe back and if that's the case they probably weren't as committed to negotiations as Carr would have liked. Wasn't there a deal actually made, then torn up? I read somewhere that Carr ended up getting some form of compensation from Ulster for that.

Or maybe it was all a dream...

Not sure Greybeard. I thought Ulster offered him a deal but he stalled because he was holding out for an offer from Leinster or something? Geoff posted on it at the time but I can't recall the full details.