Fantasy fight

RJJ vs Sugar Ray Robinson at MW. Who wins?

I'd go for RJJ via 3-4 round UD. To fast, clever and skilled for the MW version of SRR.

Interesting one. RJJ never faced anyone of Sugar's quality - but as we discussed in the other debate - it is generally accepted that Sugar wasn't quite as good at MW as before.

I don't think you can pick Roy based on a rather green Hopkins and Tate. Roy was always big for a middleweight - and had to cut very hard - hence he didn't stay there for long.

Which leads us to be considering things from a stylistic perspective.

Stylistically - Roy presents Sugar with the challenge of speed+power - but for the record, Roy provides this challenge to any fighter - and it is one of the reasons he isn't an easy night for any boxer.

I'd pick Sugar - by a late stoppage - or a comfortable UD.

At LHW - I'd pick Roy.

At a catchweight of 165? You didn't ask that question, so I can sit on the fence

I didnt include catchweight because I dont recognise it so much. Plus SRR wasn't the biggest MW and fighting at catchweight would put him at an added disadvantage.

But based on SRR resume at MW and losing to fighters without the basic skillset that RJJ would bring to the table, I'd go for RJJ. Also I read that RJJ was very similar in terms of speed and talent to a certain Charley Burley (well according to Futch) and was avoided like the plague by Robbo.

Speed kills and RJJ at MW was probably the fastest there is.

I think there is a lot of the unknown aspect of Roy Jones Jr at Middleweight as he didn't spend much time there, I'm not sure he would have the ring smarts or the chin to survive a crisis in a fight. Roy would be bringing a combination of speed and power like Robinson hadn't seen before but I just can't see a guy with only 2 title fights under his belt being able to get out of trouble when Robinson gets him hurt.

If we are talking about Robinson as a middleweight in his mid 30s and a youngish Jones who only flirted with the middleweight division briefly I would probably edge towards Jones.

Difficult to assess Jones as a middleweight due to his age and relative experience when he fought there. Would he have been ready for an old but experienced Robinson. I would probably back his raw talent at that stage although hypothetical match ups with Jones at middleweight tend to judge more on potential than acheivement. However his wins over Toney and Hopkins in or around that weight class at that time plus his demolition of other guys would be enough to convince me that youth beats experience in this one.

RJJ gets slapped silly.

RJJ probably takes him 7/10, but it would be a tough night for him.

Robinson is the slight favourite for me, but by no more than a 60:40 ratio. I think a few people are quick to write him off as a 160 lb man, and are maybe putting too much weight on how good Jones 'might' have been at the weight (the truth is, we're still a little unsure).

We're all well-versed in how Robinson was 8-6-1 in Middleweight title fights, but let's keep in mind that all of those losses besides the first Turpin bout came when Sugar Ray was in his mid to late thirties and returning after a two and a half year retirement between 1952 and 1955. While it would have been unrealistic to expect him to duplicate his Welterweight brilliance at another higher weight, I'd still say that Robinson effectively had two careers at 160 lb, with the early fifties version of him notably better than the late fifties one.

Size and, perhaps, speed are with Jones. Ring generalship and power with Robinson - he still had one hell of a whack at 160 lb, illustrated against Turpin (II), Graziano and Fullmer (II). I think Jones' chances decrease a fair amount against anyone with genuine one-punck knockout power.

I see it going the distance the majority of times, with both men having their hands raised at the end of a hard twelve / fifteen rounds in equal measure, however thrown in amongst that I'd see the odd Robinson knockout win, too, which gives him a slight edge in my eyes if they were to box a long series of bouts. Not sure Jones could get Robinson out of there at any stage.

Robinson was best at welter.

I think Jone's style coupled with his speed is his best advantage. Robinson never met anyone close to the technique of Jones but Robinson was clever. He would have problems with Jones as he would get countered every time he launched an attack but I think he would take Jones pot shots until he figured out a way to beat him.

Robinson could bang and Jones has a weak chin the same can not be said of Robinson. If this fight was a 12 rounder then Jones just edges it by counter punching but if it is a 15 round contest then Robinson wins by late ko.

People misjudge Robinson based on his middleweight record very unfairly, he struggled with fighters at the weight who could impose their physical will on him rather than those who tried to outbox him. Either at welterweight or middleweight I give a stylistic fighter a distinct disadvantage against the superior skills of Robinson. Jones would be one of them, all well and good saying he was knocked out past his best but it indicates to me that his chin was always a problem but no one ever tested it, Robinson would sooner or later test and how Jones cope? Not very well, Robinson once he had his man in trouble never let up.

Robinson KO 9-12.

I dont think people do misjudge Robinson on his middleweight record. They just acknowledge he was ageing and on the decline.

I dont agree that he only struggled with fighters that imposed themselves. He never really fought a quality slick fighter as a middleweight so it remains unknown at best how he would fare. LaMotta, Graziano, Turpin, Fullmer, Basilio, Olson. These guys were not particularly slick at all. Certainly not in Jones league in that sense anyhow.

I just think he struggled because his skills were declining with age.

Not sure about Roy Jones' chin Imperial, it may be possible that his chin wasn't up to snuff but you need to remember the circumstances that he was taken out in against Tarver, he was old so his punch resistance may have faded and dropping all the way down from Heavy probably had a factor on his punch resistance.

I never buy the excuses made for Jones getting knocked out, when you say old he was 34 when Tarver took him out hardly the ageing fighter many like to suggest and the drop down from Heavyweight is overplayed also, he was 15lbs over the light heavyweight limit with no need to make weight. In his 175lb days he would have been close to that come fight night anyway.

But he had been a pro for 15 years (Or something like that) when he got knocked out by Tarver, but the fact that he had to drop weight probably had an adverse affect on his body and punch resistance, like yuo say there is a chance his chin was never up to snuff, personally I'm not so sure.

Too much of a coincidence for me the moment his chin gets found he folds, either way he doesn't have the durability of either Turpin or Fullmer both of whom were effectively taken out by a single Robinson punch so a Robbo KO is very much a possibility.

I take your point on board Manos but even for the middleweight version of Robinson I don't see him being outskilled and Jones hasn't the ability to outbrawl him.

I see where you're coming from, Ghosty, but let's keep in mind that history shows that any fighter, no matter who they are, attempting to move back down in weight while in their mid thirties tends to breed results which are patchy at best. It's easy to say that the knockout at the hands of Tarver was simply a case of Jones' chin being found out and that there hadn't been any sign of a decline beforehand, but the truth is that he'd looked average in his first bout with Tarver a few months prior; sluggish, not as fast as he'd once been and couldn't stop Tarver's lead hand for love nor money, all problems I don't think Jones would have experienced against the likes of Tarver between, say, 1997 and 2001.

I think we can safely assume that Jones' chin would never have been made of granite at any stage of his career, don't get me wrong, but at the same time I'm not entirely convinced that the punches which felled him against Tarver and Johnson in 2004 would have done the same five years previously.

Obvious statement but should not be overlooked that as you age you slow down and fighters simply start getting caught by shots they would have previously evaded, Calzaghe was widely accepted as having a decent chin and deservedly so but was over in both his last fights.

Which links perfectly to his career at middleweight, if draining back down to light heavyweight had such an adverse effect would draining down to middleweight in the first place have had a similar effect?

RJJ at his best would not have been hit by the punch from Tarver that KO'd him. Interestingly that many are using that to denigrate possible the finest MW/SMW in history but stretch credibility for others and make excuses that are borderline insane when basic analysis is put in place.

I see RJJ easily outboxing SRR for a comprehensive UD. I dont see a stoppage. Lets not forget that SRR had never faced anyone as fast as RJJ or with his very unorthodox skills. Anyone that loses to Turpin, Carmen, Fulmer and a list of decent MW is not all that great.

Ghosty, he was in his early 20s at MW. His body could cope with the weight loss. Different boxers react long term to similar situations. Look at Ali. He took less punches that Frazier but who looked better in later life?

Jones didn't fight anything like Turpin, Basilio or Fullmer which makes the comparisons fairly inane, i'm very much of the opinion that Robinson struggled with fairly awkward brawlers like the men he lost to. Much is made of Jones' speed but it's a bit cliched to just say speed kills, why would speed alone beat Robinson? Tarver is brought up to show the other side of Jones, Robinson when past his best was able to find ways to win, a skill and adaptability Jones was never able to show, how you perform when not at your best is as equally important as how you perform at your best.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Jones didn't fight anything like Turpin, Basilio or Fullmer which makes the comparisons fairly inane, i'm very much of the opinion that Robinson struggled with fairly awkward brawlers like the men he lost to. Much is made of Jones' speed but it's a bit cliched to just say speed kills, why would speed alone beat Robinson? Tarver is brought up to show the other side of Jones, Robinson when past his best was able to find ways to win, a skill and adaptability Jones was never able to show, how you perform when not at your best is as equally important as how you perform at your best.

Robinson past his best lost almost as often as he won.

So you refuse to accept that RJJ was way past it, yet you say that Hoppo was green when RJJ schooled him (the judging was very kind to Hop as I had it 9-3 to RJJ).

Old is better than new, no it isn't new is better than old

Saves you all a lot of time lads.

Have I really just saw someone refer to Ray Robinson as 'not great'?

Well, Ghosty in terms of Robinson being past his best and finding a way to win is true and Roy Jones Jr. being past his best and not being able to win is also correct, but fact is the question isn't about whether Roy could beat SRR whilst they were both past there best, so that's not really coming into it.

Fists of Fury wrote:Have I really just saw someone refer to Ray Robinson as 'not great'?

Clearly an Azania mental theory!!

Huh? Where have I stated that SRR is not great? Is that another leap of faith and assumption based on something you hoped I wrote rather than something I actually wrote?


I have always maintained that SRR greatness stems from his welterweight career. His MW stint was slightly above average but not great.

Few comments removed there gents. Play nicely.

Az, yes you did state that Sugar Ray Robinson 'wasn't all that great'. You either need to do a heck of a lot more research on the matter, or you're on the wind up. I'm unsure which at this moment.

Sorry Az, but SRR is a top 10 MW.

In case you haven't noticed, I removed insults from all parties.

You are purposely picking out Robbo's MW record, when you know full well (hopefully) his record prior to that. He obviously had more success at welterweight, where he was undoubtedly at his best, but all things considered he does enough to be regarded as the ATG #1 in 99.9% of fans view.

Azania/Coxy - the insult hurling stops now.

I wouldnt really agree that Robinsons losses were down to struggling with a certain style. He didnt really fight ay particularly fast or slick middleweights in the Jones mould so theres no real basis of comparison. The fact he lost to 4 seperate guys in championship fights leads me to think its just a deterioration of skills and physical condition that come with age. If Robinson had beat slicker middleweights easily then there might be something to that but he didnt so I cant draw any conclusion other than it was just age.

Physically you have got to think that Jones has a decent advantage. Younger, quicker, sharper, fresher. In my view, other than landing a jackpot punch, Robinsons only real advantage at this point would be in ringcraft and experience. He would have to rely on this to see him through. But Jones at this stage is probably only a year away from arguably his career best performance and I think the timing gives him the advantage to use his athleticism to outpoint a slower Robinson.

azania wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:Few comments removed there gents. Play nicely.

Az, yes you did state that Sugar Ray Robinson 'wasn't all that great'. You either need to do a heck of a lot more research on the matter, or you're on the wind up. I'm unsure which at this moment.

This is seriously stupid and I expect more from you fisty. Analyse Robbo's career at MW and it is not the measure of the ATG number 1. You dont go 8-6-1 in title fights and claim to be the best ever. His record at MW is not all that great. Simple. A little thinking wont go amiss.

And if you are going to allow that grade A clown to throw insults, please allow me the same privilege.

You don't go 1-3 against Tarver and Johnson and be anywhere near the level of greatness.

Seem to forget that some guys he lost to he beat as well.

In fairness, Im pretty sure azanias comment about Robinson implied that it was in relation to middleweight only, and not his career overall.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

I'd maybe give Jones a very slight edge and back him to take a UD, but to suggest that SRR is anything other than great is utterly ludicrous.

Exactly Az, you are disregarding the fact that SRR was past it and had retired for 2and1/2 years and not at his best weight, the losses were more down to age and slowing down, also a possible burn out in regards to the Turpin fight is a reasonable explanation. Fact is it was his 4th fight in a month and facing a good opponent in Turpin could have been too much, anywho he knocked him out afterwards you can't hang that loss over him too much.

coxy0001 wrote:You don't go 1-3 against Tarver and Johnson and be anywhere near the level of greatness.

Does being the first former Middleweight titlist to claim even a portion of the Heavyweight crown in over one hundred years, being a dominant and unified champion at 175 lb for over half a decade and ten defences, having a run of around four or five years as many people's pick as pound for pound number one and barely losing a round, handing a shutout to a (then) top three pound for pound man and soundly outscoring a man who subsequently reigned at 160 lb for a decade suddenly get wiped out of the record books because of that 1-3 line at the tail end of his career, then?

Honestly Coxy, I'm as big a fan of you as you'll find on v2, but you do seem totally incapable of debating reasonably when it comes to a small handful of fighters no matter what, and Jones is one of them.

Fault is irrelevant, stay within house rules.

Az's opinion is inflammatory - but reasonably put forward, so debate it accordingly. I am sick and tired that every time RJJ's name is mentioned, especially when linked to an old time fighter - pathetic mud-slinging results.

No one party is to blame - however - we expect better.

The mud-slinging and point scoring stop now.

For the record - I suspect he is saying that Sugar Ray wasn't all that great as a MW - something I have suggested in the past myself - he wasn't as untouchable at 160 as at 147.

However, as skidd will no doubt remind me, he always won his rematches (which clearly makes a defeat OK) and the IBRO, for the record, rate Sugar as the #1 MW of all time [I know, I couldn't believe it either].

Please, continue the discussion.

AlexHuckerby wrote:Sorry Az, but SRR is a top 10 MW.

That could well be the case. Top 10, not No 1. I wont argue with that.

Nobody is saying he is the #1 MW, where have you got that from?

RJJ wins by what method I do not know. Too naturally powerful and fast for SRR at MW.

Anyway, good work Azania, it's good to see someone with a different perspective, somone who isn't a nuthugger of the fighters in black and white. Don't let cyber bullies like Ghosty and Coxy get you down.

manos de piedra wrote:In fairness, Im pretty sure azanias comment about Robinson implied that it was in relation to middleweight only, and not his career overall.

Thank G-d someone understands the written work here. Thanks manos. A voice of reason amongst insanity.

From the same school of thought you went to where you claimed I said he wasn't a great boxer.

azania wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:Azania/Coxy - the insult hurling stops now.

Not my fault he is questionning the greatness of SRR. Point out that RJJ got pancaked by 2 extremely avergage LHWs (who would get pancaked by the likes of Fullmer) and he'll probably get a little strop on and claim that Tarver would've been the best ever if he'd fought in the 1930s.

Seriously, his tune is boring and what more do you expect when i'm answering a wum? You even said it yourself that he's probably on the windup.

I am questioning the alledged greatness of SRR at MW you numpty. What tune is it cox? You really need to grow some minerals or at least grow up.

"Anyone that loses to Turpin, Carmen, Fulmer and a list of decent MW is not all that great."

Not all that great.....

It's not my fault you can't write a coherent sentence that makes explicit sense regarding the point you're trying to make.

coxy0001 wrote:

azania wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:Azania/Coxy - the insult hurling stops now.

Not my fault he is questionning the greatness of SRR. Point out that RJJ got pancaked by 2 extremely avergage LHWs (who would get pancaked by the likes of Fullmer) and he'll probably get a little strop on and claim that Tarver would've been the best ever if he'd fought in the 1930s.

Seriously, his tune is boring and what more do you expect when i'm answering a wum? You even said it yourself that he's probably on the windup.

I am questioning the alledged greatness of SRR at MW you numpty. What tune is it cox? You really need to grow some minerals or at least grow up.

"Anyone that loses to Turpin, Carmen, Fulmer and a list of decent MW is not all that great."

Not all that great.....

It's not my fault you can't write a coherent sentence that makes explicit sense regarding the point you're trying to make.

Numpti.

Deffo ESN. What weight was that? Must everything be spelt out for some? I'm actually surprised you're not still spoon fed,

To be fair to Azania when I read his comment to me it seemed clear he was referring to Robbo at middle, but not everyone is as erudite as my good self.

Stop the insults and just debate the matter at hand without getting personal Jesus...

rowley wrote:To be fair to Azania when I read his comment to me it seemed clear he was referring to Robbo at middle, but not everyone is as erudite as my good self.

Eru who? FFS man, talk proper innit lol.

oxring wrote:Did I sound like I was making a joke?

Cut the bickering, move on. Last warning.

Oxy old bean. No problem from me, but I dont turn the other cheek especially when the bickering was started by someone.