McCaw's labels the French "filthy"

by Adam D Tue 06 Dec 2011, 8:36 am

New Zealand's rugby World Cup-winning skipper Richie McCaw has lifted the lid on this year's tension-packed final, finally breaking his silence over an alleged eye-gouging incident.

Previously, the flanker had only said he had been "poked in the eye or something... I don't know if it was intentional", but at a charity breakfast in Christchurch, he said that the final against France had got "filthy".

"The French are worse when they are scared," McCaw was reported as saying. "They were as bad as they have been and were going for the eyes.

"My eye was a bit sore for a while and I was struggling to see for a bit. I was surprised they didn't cite him (Aurelien Rougerie)."
Rougerie escaped being cited for foul play in October's final, which New Zealand won 8-7.

Video evidence suggesting the France centre had a case to answer only came outside the required 36 hours after the match.

The IRB will now look at extending the citing window after reviewing the footage.

His latest bout will take place just weeks before Williams makes his Super Rugby debut for the Waikato Chiefs, after switching from the Canterbury Crusaders in the off-season.
Tutaki, 33, has a record of 19 wins, 21 loses and one draw.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/newzealand/8937391/New-Zealand-captain-Richie-McCaw-lifts-the-lid-on-filthy-Rugby-World-Cup-final-with-scared-French.html

by Guest Tue 06 Dec 2011, 8:51 am

It's something we've always known. Hence potpourri.

by disneychilly Tue 06 Dec 2011, 10:42 am

McCaw should have talked about the knee to Parra's head too. Even though I think he was running in at 100mph and that speed would have made it hard to steer a knee, it would have been nice. Maybe he felt he didn't want to dignify it by talking about it. I'm sure NZ would have rather Parra not got hit as Trinh Duc came on and had a blinder.

Yep the French are filthy a lot of the time in big games. I was disappointed that in the 99 semi NZ didn't fight fire with fire and played dumb afterwards. The guys that bite and gouge deserve to have their lights punched out and if the ref is going to ignore that sort of carry on players have to defend themselves. Eales threatened to drag the Aussies off the field in that final. Well done for standing up to them and I'm sure Finegan and co gave a bit of their own back in the nooks and crannies.

by munkian Tue 06 Dec 2011, 11:15 am

*cough*BOD spear*cough*

by chewed_mintie Tue 06 Dec 2011, 11:16 am

*cough* Darcy spear the week before *cough*

by munkian Tue 06 Dec 2011, 11:22 am

Oh well its perfectly fine for two players to purposefuly injure a player off the ball then.... Whistle

The All Blacks are just as bad as the French or any other team. And McCaw is a fine one to be talking about being dirty

by chewed_mintie Tue 06 Dec 2011, 11:30 am

You’ll probably find that Tipoki was no where near the ball either but hey never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

NZ aren’t saints, but it is a bit far calling McCaw a dirty player isn’t it? Clever and calculating, but not dirty. To emphasis the point re Parra, I cleared out a ruck on Saturday and accidentally kneed my own player in the head as he rolled around. I didn’t target him, just the guy lying all over him slowing down our ball. Our bloke had to go off, I apologised obviously. Did I do it intentionally? No, everyone know that you get knees, elbows and the odd head clash now and then most of which isn’t intentional.

What is intentional is putting your grubby fingers all over someone’s face and eyes. I’ve had a contact lense ripped out of my eye from a gouge. It’s never accidental.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 06 Dec 2011, 11:40 am

The French have tended to be rather a dirty side. However they have also tended to be rather rubbish at it.

If french players attempts to be dirty were a fictional detective, the would be Inspector Clouseau.

Through history there have been sides much more proficient and logical in their foul play - so more Sherlock Holmes.

by munkian Tue 06 Dec 2011, 11:43 am

LondonTiger wrote:The French have tended to be rather a dirty side. However they have also tended to be rather rubbish at it.

If french players attempts to be dirty were a fictional detective, the would be Inspector Clouseau.

Through history there have been sides much more proficient and logical in their foul play - so more Sherlock Holmes.

by disneychilly Tue 06 Dec 2011, 11:45 am

It was actually in NZ's best interests to have Parra still in the game. He wasn't doing anything.

McCaw plays on the limits as every good 7 should. Back, Smith, Magne, Pocock etc. So he gets more cheap shots than anyone. Some of them are just blatant though-Heaslip, Powell etc. Complain all you want about it, the refs all know everyone whinges about McCaw and I'm sure he chats to the ref to find out what he can and cannot do. But don't condone any of said thuggery.

Look we are no angels, Skinner and Loe are but two of a fair few. The BOD incident was bloody reckless and both Umaga and Mealamu should have got a few weeks for reckless disregard for a players safety. I don't think it was malicious though.

I've seen McCaw do one thing I didn't like-he sprigged Pocock in the leg at a scrum. But I've been in Mintie's position and knocked someone in the head cleaning out a ruck too and think he couldn't control it there. And Munkian is talking out of his rectum implying McCaw is dirty.

by OzT Tue 06 Dec 2011, 11:46 am

Dirty sides as a rule don't generally win the match. Or rather sides with dirty players in them, rather than a side is dirty.

Can think of 3 games where one side has dirty players that lost. (England, France and Boks).

Note there's no mention of my beloved Wallabies in that list, as we play almost as angels. Smile

Well no, we lost one with Harrison against the Lions 2000.

But the same sides playing rugby often win. So, adding one and one and making another number, my thoughts are that sides with dirty players loses the match anyway.

by disneychilly Tue 06 Dec 2011, 11:48 am

McCaw also went straight up to the ref and said "I got gouged". Look at the tape. Plain as day. Read gesticulated to the touch judge. So you can't say that he didn't let any authorities know. Maybe the citing commissioner got on the turps for 3 days after the final.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 06 Dec 2011, 11:54 am

The simple fact of the matter is that in French rugby gouging is not considered as dirty as it is in other countries.

by disneychilly Tue 06 Dec 2011, 12:06 pm

Great point Biscuit.

by HammerofThunor Tue 06 Dec 2011, 12:29 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:The simple fact of the matter is that in French rugby gouging is not considered as dirty as it is in other countries.

It's generally done when someone else is cheating. As a method of discouragement. Interesting view on it in John Daniell's book. Talks about his first experience of it and then the first time he did it.

by Portnoy Tue 06 Dec 2011, 1:11 pm

McCaw's knee vs Lawes' knee.
Compare and contrast.

by chewed_mintie Tue 06 Dec 2011, 1:14 pm

Portnoy, can you clarify the incident for me please? I'm a bit hazy on it but I seem to recall the fact that Lawes wasn't clearing out a ruck? I might be wrong but I have a feeling Ledesma wasn't involved in anything or it might have been after a ruck?

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 06 Dec 2011, 1:15 pm

Kind of like sex with certain types of animals, its more socially acceptable in some parts of the world.

Theres all kinds of horrible things that go one between players in the thick of it. Some have different ideas about what is which side of the line. Ali Williams stomped Mccaws head once, thats just rucking? I cant remeber a time when people didnt complain about the French gouging, as is said above it was usually a sign that the opposition was getting on top and their way of exerting pressure back. Im sure NZ had plenty of dirty ways of dong the same back.
Thats not to say that gouging isnt an odious act, and I hate the French as much as the next man.

by Portnoy Tue 06 Dec 2011, 1:21 pm

chewed_mintie wrote:Portnoy, can you clarify the incident for me please? I'm a bit hazy on it but I seem to recall the fact that Lawes wasn't clearing out a ruck? I might be wrong but I have a feeling Ledesma wasn't involved in anything or it might have been after a ruck?

An unintentional knee in the fray is part of the game.

Lawes got banned for a dodgy one. McCaw didn't get banned for a dodgy one.

by brennomac Tue 06 Dec 2011, 1:29 pm

All this talk of the French being the gougers in chief. Refresh my memory - didn't that charmer Dylan Hartley get 6 months for gouging, and a little closer to home didn't Alan Quinlan also get a ban for his gouge of Leo Cullen in the HC semifinal a few years ago. The French are probably the most active gougers but they ain't alone.

Wasn't going to bring it up as it's been talked about to death for years, but since disneychilly brought up the Umaga-Mealamu spear tackle of BOD describing what they did as "reckless disregard" warranting a "few weeks" ban is plain stupid.

I know Kiwis have the blinkers on when it comes to the pious St Kevin but himself and Umaga plain and simple took out the Lions captain in the first minute of the first test. A spear tackle by one player is bad enough but when two players combine to drive somebody into the ground and potentially doing more damage than wrecking his shoulder the words "reckless disregard" are a bit hollow.

Ah, the stench of hyprocisy.

by Feckless Rogue Tue 06 Dec 2011, 1:41 pm

Yes the injury to BOD in '05 was one of the worst incidents I've seen. But it stands out as an exception, because you don't normally see Kiwi's involved in that kind of stuff. Can the Kiwi's be sneaky? Yes. Big time. But I wouldn't call the Kiwi's dirty.

The French are filthy some times. Us Irish don't see it much in the 6 Nations because we rarely put them under any pressure. But our provinces can beat French clubs and there's been gouging incidents. Remember the Ferris one? And then the French were raging at the ban as some sort of Anglo Saxon conspiracy. They also tried to claim the evidence was photoshoped. Which is strange because I thought photo's could be photoshopped not video evidence.

by disneychilly Tue 06 Dec 2011, 1:58 pm

Who cares when it happened Brenno? If it happened in the last minute of the last test it wouldn't have made a difference. What, you think he would have made a difference? No way mate-the Lions got spanked and the British media army focused on that as it detracted from said spanking.

Trying to imply something by stating when it happened is stupid in itself-and is also hypocritical. But at least I got the spelling right.

I don't think Mealamu is an angel at all. I'm from a rival province in NZ so I see him in opposition more than you do. If it had as much malice in it as you think then they would have driven BOD into the dirt with the time they still had. O'Driscoll still falls some way-not trying to break his fall shows reckless disregard. So take your own blinkers off-I'm criticising what my own players did too.

Umaga won the de Coubertin award for the Charvis incident. So he's not the dirtiest player in the world either.

So where's this hypocrisy I exhibit?

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 06 Dec 2011, 2:00 pm

brennomac wrote:All this talk of the French being the gougers in chief. Refresh my memory - didn't that charmer Dylan Hartley get 6 months for gouging, and a little closer to home didn't Alan Quinlan also get a ban for his gouge of Leo Cullen in the HC semifinal a few years ago. The French are probably the most active gougers but they ain't alone.

Wasn't going to bring it up as it's been talked about to death for years, but since disneychilly brought up the Umaga-Mealamu spear tackle of BOD describing what they did as "reckless disregard" warranting a "few weeks" ban is plain stupid.

I know Kiwis have the blinkers on when it comes to the pious St Kevin but himself and Umaga plain and simple took out the Lions captain in the first minute of the first test. A spear tackle by one player is bad enough but when two players combine to drive somebody into the ground and potentially doing more damage than wrecking his shoulder the words "reckless disregard" are a bit hollow.

Ah, the stench of hyprocisy.

Not at all. The difference is that when someone here deliberatly gouges ( which is far difference to incidental eye contact even from a reckless action) they know they are doing something that is considered over the line. To the French its just another dirty deed.
Same could be said of that spear. At the time it was considered a legit thing to do by many in new zealnd and they simply couldnt undertand the outrage poured over it. Lets not even go into recent tip tackles and people refussing to accept they should be a yellow card let alone a red.
Obviosuly its simplifying the point to suggest that the French think gouging is perfectly normal and everyone doe sit every day, but there is a cultural elemant to how we decide what is and what isnt accpetable on the field...and you will see different dirty deeds done more in different paces.
Its not to say that one nation is to a man born filthy, quite the opposite...just they may have differnet standards of what constitutes filth.
I wouldnt touch a boiled snail, a frenchman wouldnt kiss my wife.

by Knowsit17 Tue 06 Dec 2011, 8:08 pm

Bit of a silly statement if you ask me. There are no grounds for generalisation here as McCaw has hinted towards. You get your rotten, despicable characters like Rougerie and Mealamu to name a representative for both sides who contested the final but both have also produced athletes as classy as they are talented and to taint the names of those stars by tarring them with the same brush as the thugs is injustice.

To speak my mind even if it's likely to upset at least a couple of people, I'm not convinced McCaw's knee was intentional, however I can't see how Rougerie's claw at the facial area could be anything but intentional. People who gouge are in a league of their own, they could leave the sport and never return for all I care. You use your nails and threaten somebody's sight and you deserve nothing less, just ask Gavin Quinnell and others who have suffered the worst of it.

I mean this not as a generalisation but as an observation, gouging is more common in France and Italy. I can't speak for Italy but the French officials and clubs do nothing to help. Remember David Attoub and his ban reduction by an independent French committee?

by Gatts Tue 06 Dec 2011, 8:20 pm

Gouging is wrong in anyone's book...but this is a case of NZ getting all precious and forgetting their own rep for being dirty, cheating.......

by disneychilly Tue 06 Dec 2011, 8:29 pm

How do you figure that Gatts?

Cheating is not the issue here. Everyone does. NZ are the best team, so in everyone's eyes are the biggest cheats. So get over all that crap. You wouldn't be whingeing if they weren't so successful.

I hate what Loe and Flavell did, especially Loe who was wearing black at the time. Every gouging incident needs to be brought to everyone's attention as it is disgusting. How can you lambast someone who was the victim of a gouge himself as getting precious about it?

by Knowsit17 Tue 06 Dec 2011, 8:34 pm

Gatts wrote:Gouging is wrong in anyone's book...but this is a case of NZ getting all precious and forgetting their own rep for being dirty, cheating.......

When's the last time they gouged someone I wonder?

It's not NZ's reputation, it's that of certain players who have represented NZ. As I said in my last post, there's no room for generalisation. Or maybe the indescribable act committed by Umaga and Mealamu was actually a dressing room plot or better yet, a national conspiracy in NZ all along Rolling Eyes

I'm sure some NZ'ers condemn such atrocities by their own side just as some Frenchmen condemn Rougerie, Attoub, Dupuy and others for their cowardice.

If you were McCaw and you got some cuts on your face, potentially could have gotten worse, while the man responsible got nothing, I bet you'd have something to say about it too.

by Gatts Tue 06 Dec 2011, 8:36 pm

i don't believe in the IRB statue of limitations for starters

why should it only be citeable for 36 hrs?

should be at any time evidence comes to light

by Gatts Tue 06 Dec 2011, 8:46 pm

Gouging is gouging and is a fecking disgrace, life bans should follow

NZ getting all precious about France being filthy is whinging

Had they wanted to deal with it they could have spoken to match citing commissioner, they didn't so should shut up.

by disneychilly Tue 06 Dec 2011, 8:48 pm

Trying to think of the worst incidents NZers has been involved in as supposed perpertrators wearing the black shirt. They have had two sendoffs in tests, Brownlie and Meads.

The BOD cleanout
Loe mashing Carozza's face
Colin Meads injuring Ken Catchpole
Mealamu headbutt
Shelford knocking Huw Richards out (he did kinda deserve it though)

Those are the ones that stick out for me. No gouges in a black shirt though. The only two that have done it at NPC level are Loe and Flavell.

by AFewTooManyKnocks Tue 06 Dec 2011, 8:49 pm

They're not getting precious. He's never opened his mouth until now. The official report is that he "took a knock to the eye".

McCaw made these comments to a small group of people at a charity event and the media has jumped on it.

Have you read the actual article? or just the Telegraphs take on it?

by Gatts Tue 06 Dec 2011, 8:50 pm

Telegraph

link?

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Tue 06 Dec 2011, 9:29 pm

Folks, there's plenty of good debate on this thread, drop the petty name calling.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Tue 06 Dec 2011, 9:39 pm

Gatts, Disney, I've just removed a few of your posts from this thread. Debate sensibly or DROP IT.

by Feckless Rogue Tue 06 Dec 2011, 10:26 pm

The BOD cleanout

Ah come on. Cleanout?

I'm sure they didn't intentionally mean to break his shoulder. But you can't call that a cleanout. The ball was gone. They picked him up. Turned him upside down. And slammed him into the ground. It was a terrible spear tackle. Off the ball. And if he didn't move his head out of the way it could have been worse.

I can't believe I'm still arguing about this so many years later. But the refusal of Kiwi's to accept it was a terrible spear tackle does wind me up. Cleanout?

by Gatts Tue 06 Dec 2011, 10:28 pm

Careful you can't say anything anti AB, they'll keep quiet in a mock stoic manner only to drag it up later

by ME-109 Tue 06 Dec 2011, 10:35 pm

look everyone knows that the best team on the day didnt win the final. NZ choked but luckily mr joubert gave them a helping hand. Its like the qf four years ago...gotta find a reason to explain why unlike shelfords team in 87 every ab team since then cant hack it when it comes to Knockout. Great at the harlem globetrotters exhibition stuff but always seem to get a surprise when faced with reality.

by goneagain Wed 07 Dec 2011, 8:18 am

DOD wrote:look everyone knows that the best team on the day didnt win the final.

How do you figure that? Granted, France finished the game applying more pressure. But they only managed to score after a refereeing blunder allowed Rougerie to kick through. Maybe the better team of the last half hour. But NZ were easily better in the first half.

I still think a lot of people (including commentators and 'expert' analysts) have let their emotions get in the way of objectivity.

by eirebilly Wed 07 Dec 2011, 8:46 am

To be fair, i have never really considered the All Blacks to be a dirty side. They have had some isolated issues but i really dont see them as dirty.

Their rugby league side, however, is one of the dirtiest teams i have ever seen play the game over the years.

I have watched McCaw his whole international caeer and i am yet to really see any intntional act of foul play. He draws alot of attention simply because he is one of the greatest players to play the game.

The French do have a history of dirty play but it really is mainly down to individuals and not a nation of dirty players. All countries have/had their share of dirty players. Its not good and attacking the eyes of another player intentionally should result in longer bans.

by chewed_mintie Wed 07 Dec 2011, 9:29 am

eirebilly wrote:Their rugby league side, however, is one of the dirtiest teams i have ever seen play the game over the years.

Yeah, the current vintage isn’t really worthy of being labelled world champions at the moment, they’re playing like chumps and some are going all out to maim and injure. Pity because there is a young side there that could do wonderful things.

Disney – add Jamie Joseph to your list before the English jump all over you! *cough* bracken *cough* 1993 *cough*

Not sure what eye gouging has to do with the result in the final tbh. NZ deserved it, the best team in the tournament and for about the first 45 mins and last 5 min of the final. As another poster says, just because France did well in the last 30 min doesn’t give them the entitlement to win the game. Where were they for the first 50?

Reminds me of a Bled Cup game in 1997. Australia scored 24 unanswered points against us in the second half. 24!! Luckily NZ were already 36-0 up at half time.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 07 Dec 2011, 9:56 am

eirebilly wrote:To be fair, i have never really considered the All Blacks to be a dirty side. They have had some isolated issues but i really dont see them as dirty.

I have watched McCaw his whole international caeer and i am yet to really see any intntional act of foul play. He draws alot of attention simply because he is one of the greatest players to play the game.

+1

by disneychilly Wed 07 Dec 2011, 10:22 am

Thanks Mintie mate. I knew I'd missed a couple.

Agree totally Eirebilly. Luke trying to break his own cousins leg-deplorable.

Also agree with goneagain-NZ were the best side in that game for longer than the French were. If Weepu hadn't have pulled his groin and kicked everything NZ would have been out of sight. Choked? You have to lose to choke.

Well yeah-it looked like a horrible cleanout gone wrong. Tackle? Did O'Driscoll have the ball? They should have broken his fall. I agree with you about a lot of it but not as much as you'd like me to. Do you want me to apologise for not having as strong a point of view about it? You'll be waiting a long time. This thread was about eye gouging to start with. Typical.

Looks like I missed some more retorts while I was in bed. KRD I take offence at the personal stuff on here and reacted naturally. Plus I thought I made an effort to not be antagonistic (well the kindy jibe apart). Ah well if that's not good enough then I'm stumped.

DOD stop implying that only the World Cup is important. Despite now noone having won more than NZ, I thought myself and numerous other posters had proven that theory wrong.

by Feckless Rogue Wed 07 Dec 2011, 10:46 am

disneychilley. No problem buddy. I get emotional when there's talk of that incident. Can't help it.

by disneychilly Wed 07 Dec 2011, 11:19 am

Of course you would mate. Rightly so. I'm still angry at the patch of grass Carter slipped on.

by **Biltong** Wed 07 Dec 2011, 11:42 am

disneychilly wrote:Of course you would mate. Rightly so. I'm still angry at the patch of grass Carter slipped on.

If you weren't asleep and missed the 36 hour citing window you could have had the groundsman cited,............ or the weather buro,.................or anyone who could have deliberately wetted that patch of grass.

by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 07 Dec 2011, 2:02 pm

It´s amazing that McCaw says something at a charity dinner and then on the other side of the world an article gets written about it. If a Tongan had said something about a French player at a charity dinner, then it wouldn´t get a mention.

Every nation has a past with dirty players. Every nation at some time is guilty of cynical play. When you are the top team, people tend to overanalyse why this is the case and look for reasons in the dark side of things. When you hear negative things about your team all the time, you in turn get blinded to the things you really do wrong.

So really this article in the Telegraph is all about inciting comments. Judging by the 150 comments or so they seem pretty representative of the comments on this post. So for some we´re still chokers, for others we´re just guilty and some we´re the innocent victims. These articles are all about further entrenching people´s ideas and laying out more clearly the battlelines.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 07 Dec 2011, 2:58 pm

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:These articles are all about further entrenching people´s ideas and laying out more clearly the battlelines.

You could be on to something there, kia!

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 07 Dec 2011, 3:02 pm

Can we start one called " The Scots are all useless at rugby" then Whistle

by Feckless Rogue Wed 07 Dec 2011, 3:45 pm

Topics for the next week

The Scots are all useless at rugby.
Nobody likes English people. FACT!
Is Wales a real country?
The Irish are cr@p at regulating their banks.
I've never met a nice South African.
Why do Australians talk through their noses?

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 07 Dec 2011, 3:46 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Can we start one called " The Scots are all useless at rugby" then

PSW, but in your mind where would there be room for discussion?! Wink

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