Saracens 31 - 26 Ospreys

by maestegmafia Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:13 pm

First topic message reminder :

Saracens (23) 31
Tries: Gill, Joubert, Wyles Cons: Farrell 2 Pens: Farrell 4

Ospreys (13) 26
Tries: Beck 2 Cons: Biggar 2 Pens: Biggar 4

Saracens edged an entertaining Heineken Cup pool contest at Wembley but a bonus point kept Ospreys in contention.

Sarries led 10-3 after an early Rhys Gill try before the first of Ashley Beck's two scores saw the Welsh region level.

But Saracens led 23-13 at the interval after a second try from Ernst Joubert and three Owen Farrell penalties.

Chris Wyles' try put them 28-16 up but Beck's second and Dan Biggar's fourth penalty rewarded the visitors' efforts.

The two sides will meet again at the Liberty Stadium in Swansea next Friday with qualification still very much up for grabs, Treviso's victory over Biarritz earlier in the day leaving the pool wide open.

by maestegmafia Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:28 am

beshocked wrote:Maestegmafia if you want to take solace from the Biarritz and Saints results then you are welcome to. Crucially both were away from home. Wembley isn't VR but Saracens will feel more comfortable there than the O's.

Sarries performances in general haven't been brilliant but it doesn't matter if they rack up the wins. Saracens still prevented Saints the try bonus, still picked up the losing bonus against Biarritz and got the try bonus vs Treviso at home.

8/10 in the AP and 6 points in the HC so far is a good haul. Most teams would be pleased with that from our matches!

It's results that matter more than performance. Well it is in our case anyway.

Ospreys should be disappointed by their failure to beat Treviso.

Treviso are a pretty dangerous side at home, they don't travel at all well but the game against the Ospreys shows exactly what they can do. I, as a fan, am disappointed but i certainly didn't think we would do much better than a non TBP win at best. Having seen their excellent form this year and last.

With regards to Saracens form as you say it is performances that count but they only seem to have been competent at best at home. Most of their victories were during the RWC against teams that were missing a lot more players than they were.

I expect the Ospreys to win this weekend in Wembley and will be disappointed if they don't.

by Morgannwg Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:30 am

These players are the reason why the Ospreys were top of the League for so long. I might be incorrect but they have only lost one game this season, that was away to a form Glasgow team. They're only 2nd now due to Leinsters awesome demolition of BLues last weekend. Some of the older heads came back in against Biarritz and Treviso and gave substandard performances. These academy products look like the better players.

It's a 50/50 call between Bennet and Hibbard. Both are good players. If you watched Wales on the weekend you have seen Bennet throwing in straight to Ian EVans on several occassions. One was not straight and one was pinched I think.

by beshocked Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:40 am

Maestegmafia Broken Record

It's a myth. Stop talking about Saracens missing less players than their opposition. Ok against Leicester we missed less but that's it.

Saracens missed 8 players in world cup action. A lot more than Quins for example. I have clearly mentioned this a fair few times. Even made a topic to prove to all.

If you expect Ospreys to win then expect to be disappointed. The bookies and plenty of 606 v2 members think Saracens will win. Of course you are capable of winning but expecting to win when obviously underdogs is optimistic at best, delusional at worst.

I don't expect us to win in Swansea but I know we are capable.

Maestegmafia if you wish to underestimate Saracens then that's your call. I won't be underestimating Ospreys.

Morgannwg they should trust them then.

by beshocked Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:43 am

https://www.606v2.com/t12177-ap-international-call-ups-who-are-missing-and-how-many-during-the-world-cup

For your benefit Maestegmafia. Probably a couple of names missing but not many.

by BlueNote Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:51 am

Duncan Jones a weak scrummager? I wouldn't have said so.

by Morgannwg Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:00 pm

Duncan always looks like he's going backwards to me.

Beshocked here is all the Rabo results: http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/matchcentre/fixtures_list.php Ospreys have won 8, drawn 1 and lost 1. Their form is consistent, but their performances aren't great. They've struggled in a few games and have failed to get more than 3 tries in a game yet. There's a bit of reliance on Biggars boot. I think they may start hitting the level their capable of after christmas once selection policy is figured out. If they beat Leinster and Ulster away then they would have completed a clean sweep of the four Provinces. Their first as far as I know.

by beshocked Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:04 pm

Thanks Morganwwg. Sounds a little like Saracens too. What's Biggar's percentage in kicking?

by maestegmafia Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:30 pm

Too much from hand

by beshocked Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:39 pm

I meant placekicking. Is Biggar a good placekicker?

by maestegmafia Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:26 pm

Can't find the stats sorry, he is on good form kicking goals 36 this year plus two DGs

by Bathman_in_London Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:16 pm

So is anyone going to this game?

My first ever trip to wembley, I guess I will have to dust out my old fez from the 1998 cup final- the last time I supported Sarries!

by maestegmafia Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:19 pm

Have a look back through the thread, i think a few people were buying tickets!

by maestegmafia Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:09 pm

Saracens will be hoping to do better than the last time they ran out at Wembley in the English capital when they lost 25-23 to reigning champions Leinster in last season's Heineken Cup.

The Ospreys, who failed to reach the quarter-finals of the tournament for the first time in three years last season, don't have a great away record in Europe and have not won in six games on the road.

The Premiership outfit, who returned to top flight European action for the first time in three years last season, like the Ospreys in the Pro12, lie in second place in their domestic league.

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/news/15396.php

by 21st Century Schizoid Man Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:38 pm

Is it a sell out chaps ?

by beshocked Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:48 pm

Not even close.

by 21st Century Schizoid Man Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:52 pm

Shame - I was going to say I'm so impressed - we can't sell out a 10000 seater !!!
notworthy

by beshocked Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:53 pm

Good attendances is hardly a Saracens strong point.......

by Bathman_in_London Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:54 pm

Any idea how many tickets have been sold anyone?

by Cari Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:56 pm

Up the Ospreys!!! Very Happy

Incidentally, why do the Saracens play games at Wembley Stadium?

by maestegmafia Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:19 pm

I think that it has been the vogue in London to move their clubs big Heineken cup games to other stadiums.

I was kind of hoping that this fixture would have been shifted to Cape town. Saracens were trying to play a home matche there but weren't allowed.

I still can't find out an expected crowd. Plenty of tickets for sale though.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:32 pm

Current WORLD record for a club rugby game is 82500 Munster v Leinster in Croke Park HC semi final 2009.

Wembley holds 90000 or thereabouts.......... Give it a lash lads.

by maestegmafia Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:38 pm

I cant imagine that happening, but that would be a hell of an occasion..!

by glamorganalun Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:46 pm

I can't see a big crowd from the Ospreys when they had a small crowd against Biarritz at home and if Sarries can't fill a 10k stadium they be lucky to get 20k crowd, I hope I am wrong!

I can't understand the logic of Wembley as it gives the Ospreys a better chance of victory, the big Ospeys back row will go for the poor defence of Hodgson he reminds me of Parks. The Osprey problem is the lack of pace at 10, 12 and 13 unless Morgan plays then the Ospreys have a defence problem at 10. The Ospreys chances improve if Adam starts.

by maestegmafia Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:51 pm

Great try saving tackle last week by Morgan. His defence is improving.

by beshocked Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:44 am

glamorganalun the game is being played at Wembley because this is a big Heineken cup game.

The powerful Saracens backrow will go for Biggar too. I expect Hodgson to be calm and assured under pressure if he starts.

Now to wait for the team sheets.

by BlueNote Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:20 am

Frustrating that we haven't heard yet whether Adam Jones is fit!

by beshocked Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:24 am

Yes it is frustating. Probably find out that he's starting....

I would advise that Ospreys don't rush him back too quickly. Play him in the return leg but not the match at Wembley.

by Chunky Norwich Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:54 am

I just can't see Ospreys winning this. They will need to play the game of their lives I reckon. Having said that, the one thing that Scott Johnson has brought is a sound defensive backline.

It's very difficult to score tries against them. So if it's tight with 10 to go I can see them being able to snatch it. It's a big if though.

by maestegmafia Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:30 am

Justin Tuperic wrote:
Justin Tipuric says the Ospreys will have to match Saracens physically if they are to record a win at Wembley on Saturday night.
The Ospreys will become the first Welsh region to play at the home of English football when they run out to face the current Aviva Premiership champions for the first of the back-to-back double header, with the return match at the Liberty Stadium the following Friday (16th December, 8.00pm KO), and the young openside is predicting a tough couple of games.
"We've done a lot of analysis on Saracens already this week" said Tipuric.

"We know they've got a big strong pack that give their backs momentum. They've got a good set-piece and lineout so we've just got to try and stop the forwards.

"You look at the way South Africa play, they are physical, they try and run over people, run through people, that's the way Saracens play. We've just to be as physical as we can to stop them.

"When we look back at the Treviso draw it's not the result we wanted but it's not an easy place to go. Biarritz and Saracens have still got to go there. Now though, it's about keeping momentum going for us. Hopefully we can get the win this weekend then bring them back to the Liberty in front of our fans."

Tipuric missed last weekend's memorable win over Munster at the Liberty as he was otherwise engaged earning his second international cap at the Millennium Stadium, and having returned to Ospreys HQ at Llandarcy on Monday morning he said there was a definite buzz about the place:

"Coming back into the camp with spirits high after the win in Munster makes things easier. We haven't got long to settle everyone back in, but we're prepared and we're all looking forward to a good weekend.

"You can see the boys are all smiles, everyone's happy, and you know it's going to be tough to pick a team this weekend. Whoever is wearing that jersey is hopefully going to perform for the team and that's what we need if we are going to progress."

Like the rest of his team-mates, playing at Wembley will be a new experience for Tipuric and although he is looking forward to it he denies suggestions from elements of the media that Saracens have traded in a genuine 'home advantage'.

"I've been thinking about this" said the Trebanos RFC product.

"I still think it'll be their home game, they'll have their supporters there, most of the crowd in the stadium will be behind them. We've just got to try and keep their fans quiet. It's going to be a tough job but it's something that we've got to do.

"Enjoying football as well as rugby, Wembley is a nice place to go. It'll be a good experience, I can't wait to go there."

by beshocked Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:47 am

Chunky Norwich you don't want to play Saracens at their own game.

It might be boring but it is brutally effective. The most important thing that you must do to beat Saracens is win the breakdown battle.

Our two biggest hammerings in the last two seasons have come when we have been completely dominated at the breakdown - Leinster and Northampton.

You must win quick ball and not allow the strong Saracens defence to realign. Saracens have excelled at holding out opposition on their own try line. Last ditch defence is one of our biggest strengths. We soak up pressure very well. Also our discipline is excellent in general.

To beat Saracens I think you'll need to take risks. It's how Biarritz beat us.

A fair assessment from Tupiric.

If I were an Ospreys fan I would not want Bennett to start. If he does Borthwick and Joubert will target his lineout throws.

I think the interpretations of the ref will be very important. Anyone know much about the ref. I know he's French but it'd be interesting to find out who he refs the game.

Playing to the ref is a skill in itself.

by Chunky Norwich Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:51 am

beshocked wrote:The most important thing that you must do to beat Saracens is win the breakdown battle.

To beat Saracens I think you'll need to take risks. It's how Biarritz beat us.

.

You contradict yourself here

by beshocked Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:11 am

Chunky Norwich I am surprised you are the first person to notice!

Well obviously it isn't as simple as that but my main point is you need to be bold and generate quick ball.

Biarritz beat us with two moments of brilliance - taking risks etc.

Leinster and Saints beat us by blowing us away at the breakdown, generating quick ball and not allowing our defence enough time to realign

As the saying go there's more than one way to skin a cat. The 2nd option is better. The 1st option is essentially relying on someone like Ickle Shane to do something special. He might,he might not.

by Chunky Norwich Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:13 am

beshocked wrote:Chunky Norwich I am surprised you are the first person to notice!

Well obviously it isn't as simple as that but my main point is you need to be bold and generate quick ball.

Biarritz beat us with two moments of brilliance - taking risks etc.

Leinster and Saints beat us by blowing us away at the breakdown, generating quick ball and not allowing our defence enough time to realign

As the saying go there's more than one way to skin a cat. The 2nd option is better. The 1st option is essentially relying on someone like Ickle Shane to do something special. He might,he might not.

So you don't HAVE to win the breakdown to beat Sarries then? As your earlier post stated.

by beshocked Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:19 am

Yes you have to win the breakdown. Stop confusing me!

by maestegmafia Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:49 am

Saints beat them by dominating them upfront and attacking with pace and depth. Putting the ball in behind the Sarries backs when kicking from hand in their own half.

Sarries just looked unable to get in to the game, never looked like scoring, couldn't get in to the game.

Latest news looks like Adam Jones will be selected. Good news for the O's.

BBC News on Adam Jones wrote:

Wales prop Adam Jones could return for the Ospreys' Heineken Cup clash with the Saracens at Wembley on Saturday.

The tight-head has been out with a calf injury since the region's victory 28-21 victory over Biarritz at the Liberty Stadium on 12 November.

Jones trained on Thursday and if there was no reaction to the calf he would be in line for selection.

The return of Jones would be a lift for the Ospreys, who like Saracens, are second in their league.

by LordDowlais Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:26 pm

maestegmafia wrote:Saints beat them by dominating them upfront and attacking with pace and depth. Putting the ball in behind the Sarries backs when kicking from hand in their own half.

Sarries just looked unable to get in to the game, never looked like scoring, couldn't get in to the game.

Latest news looks like Adam Jones will be selected. Good news for the O's.

BBC News on Adam Jones wrote:

Wales prop Adam Jones could return for the Ospreys' Heineken Cup clash with the Saracens at Wembley on Saturday.

The tight-head has been out with a calf injury since the region's victory 28-21 victory over Biarritz at the Liberty Stadium on 12 November.

Jones trained on Thursday and if there was no reaction to the calf he would be in line for selection.

The return of Jones would be a lift for the Ospreys, who like Saracens, are second in their league.

See, I told you all didn't I. thumbsup

by beshocked Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:27 pm

Saracens line-up vs Ospreys

15 Alex Goode
14 David Strettle
13 Owen Farrell
12 Brad Barritt
11 Chris Wyles
10 Charlie Hodgson
9 Ben Spencer
1 Rhys Gill
2 Schalk Brits
3 Matt Stevens
4 Steve Borthwick (c)
5 Mouritz Botha
6 Kelly Brown
7 Jacques Burger
8 Ernst Joubert

16 Jamie George
17 Deon Carstens
18 Carlos Nieto
19 George Kruis
20 Andy Saull
21 Peter Stringer
22 Adam Powell
23 James Short

Powerful Saracens team. Very pleased with that. Enough pace and power to win this. Bench looks good too. Brits is back! Playmakers Hodgson and Barritt back in too.

Not the strongest front three but it's more dynamic.

by beshocked Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:28 pm

15 Richard Fussell
14 Tommy Bowe

13 Andrew Bishop

12 Ashley Beck

11 Shane Williams

10 Dan Biggar

9 Rhys Webb

1 Duncan Jones

2 Richard Hibbard

3 Adam Jones

4 Ryan Jones

5 Jonathan Thomas

6 Tom Smith (Capt)

7 Justin Tipuric

8 Joe Bearman

Replacements:

16 Huw Bennett

17 Ryan Bevington

18 Aaron Jarvis

19 Ian Gough

20 George Stowers

21 Tom Isaacs

22 Matthew Morgan

23 Sonny Parker

The Ospreys team. Adam Jones starts.

by BlueNote Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:36 pm

No Ian Evans - a bit disappointing. That gives Ospreys two converted back-rowers in the 2nd row.

Good about Adam Jones and Hibbard, though.

Where do Ospreys have the advantage over Sarries? Maybe at half-back? I can't really see anywhere else.

by beshocked Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:57 pm

Bluenote maybe advantage at scrum half but certainly not at fly half! Charlie Hodgson is vs Dan Biggar.

Ospreys' strengths in my opinion - tight head with A.Jones back and on the wings.

Agree about the converted 2nd rows. Not ideal for the O's. I really want to see Borthwick target the O's lineout.

Our team might look stronger than the O's one on paper but it's the performances on the pitch that matter.

The battles I am really looking forward to:

Strettle vs Ickle Shane

Hodgson vs Biggar

Brits vs Hibbard

Borthwick vs R.Jones

by BlueNote Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:02 pm

Beshocked, Ryan Jones and JT are both good lineout forwards, but, like Bennett, Hibbard can have off days with his throwing, so Sarries may get some mileage from attacking Ospreys' lineout.

I really meant the half-backs taken as a package - Biggar and Webb are both playing well at the moment.

Maybe Ospreys have a bit of an advantage on the wings, but not by much. I have always rated Strettle highly.

by maestegmafia Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:10 pm

Yes I rate Strettle very highly too. He is a very creative winger, great pace, likely to get injured though.

Interesting what the Ospreys have chosen to do with loading Backrow players in to the pack.

JT and Ryan are great in the line out and add a lot of experience to what is already a very experienced pack.

Smith retaining the captaincy instead of handing it to Tuperic...! Interesting, but he has lead the O's really well in the absence of the senior players.

Glad to see Morgan and Parker on the bench, that changes the backline a great deal, both are very good players.

Amazed to see Stevens in the front row over Nieto...! Whats the thinking there...? From what I have seen of Stevens since he returned from his ban for being a cocaine addict at Bath RFC he has done little to impress, was awful at the RWC. Did little in recent games to change that. Where as Neito is experienced and an awesome scrummager that would probably have caused Duncs a few problems.

by Comfort Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:24 pm

really excited to see the battle between these 2 packs, both up there with the best in Europe.

Tuperic needs to have a big game at the breakdown for me.

by formerly known as Sam Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:39 pm

Stevens since he returned from his ban for being a cocaine addict at Bath RFC he has done little to impress, was awful at the RWC

He offers quite a lot in the loose. He tackles hard, makes yards ball in hands and hits rucks. He impressed last year very much in that regard. However, his scrummaging just isn't up to scratch and that could be an issue.

by **LondonTiger** Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:47 pm

Stevens is a pretty good tight head but only an average loosehead. Problem for Sarries is that Rhys Gill is a worse loosehead!! Selecting the team they have, Sarries look as if they want to move the ball around quite a lot. We should certainly see a different approach to that used against London Irish

Burger, Brown & Barritt have a lot of tackling and breakdown work to do - to free up Brits and Joubert.

by maestegmafia Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:59 pm

Thanks SAM and LT

That sounds like it should be an interesting game. O's can get a bit overly complicated and make mistakes if they open it up. Mind you when they click in the backs they are lethal. Though due to having had so many players missing from the team for the last few weeks, I would prefer it if they tried to keep it simple.

Saying that though I would also hope we get to see Morgan come on and brighten things up at some point. He is worth any ticket fee to watch. Such an exciting player. The idea of him and Shane Williams clicking together is very enticing indeed.

by beshocked Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:17 pm

Maestegmafia and Bluenote Strettle's tackling hasn't been great.Missed a few against Saints which cost us a lot of points. I am nervous with Ickle Shane lining opposite him. Strettle is at his best when the ball is popped to him at pace. Seen him score at least 3 tries like that. Though I suppose most wingers are.

Below is him scoring an excellent try. Fast forward for 1:50.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTAU75rTNuQ

As LondonTiger and Sam say Stevens is starting for his abilities in the loose.

Plenty of playmakers in the side so lots of options.

Nervous about A.Jones but is he fully fit? Do you expect him to fire on all cylinders?

by **LondonTiger** Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:24 pm

While Stevens may not be a destroyer of a tight head he can more than hold his own against even the best loose-heads.

If Adam Jones is fully fit I do fear for Gill.

by Comfort Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:24 pm

BeShocked, the one thing Adam Jones is the model of, is consistency.

He'll be solid at worst, excellant at his best, its why we in wales always want the man on the pitch, he simply gets the job done.

by beshocked Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:31 pm

Yes comfort but is he fully fit? He's just come back from a long injury. You don't expect a little rust? Perhaps I am clutching at straws?

Londontiger I do feel for Gill too.Loosehead is a weakness of ours and against one of the best tight heads around....

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