New call for WRU cash - Martyn Hazell: Dragons chairman

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/16203732.stm

Another call for more WRU cash to keep players/regions going. Looks like the Dragons squad cost is around £4m according to the chairman (I think there have been a few threads asking what the salary spend is for the Welsh regions?):



"Newport Gwent Dragons chairman Martyn Hazell has called for the Welsh Rugby Union to "take responsibility" if they want leading players to stay in Wales.

Dragons' lock Luke Charteris is likely to be the next export, with French side Perpignan the expected destination.

Wing team-mate Aled Brew is also reportedly a Perpignan target.

Hazell said: "The WRU should take charge of it and if they want to keep players in Wales, they should be paying to keep them."

Scrum-half Mike Phillips (Bayonne), fly-half James Hook (Perpignan) and full-back Lee Byrne (Clermont Auvergne) joined up with their new French clubs after the 2011 World Cup.

Another Wales tournament squad member, prop Craig Mitchell, is at Exeter, while back-row forward Andy Powell moved from Wasps to Sale for this term.

The Scarlets have expressed fears about the "vultures" targeting rising stars such as teenage wing George North, fly-half Rhys Priestland and centres Jonathan Davies and Scott Williams.

The money they're [French clubs] paying is ridiculous, but the thing is they're getting 15,000-20,000 people watching them every week and we're getting 4,000-5,000 or 6,000

And Cardiff Blues backs coach Gareth Baber also wants the WRU to offer more backing to the regions.

"The gap between France and [us] is tremendous," said Hazell. "I mean it's ridiculous.

"You can't blame the players - money talks. And we've got all our other players signed up for a few years so we've done our bit.

"But we're following the government stance, really - we're saying no to Europe. But there we are.

"The money [French clubs] are paying is ridiculous, but the thing is they're getting 15,000-20,000 people watching them every week and we're getting 4,000-5,000 or 6,000.

"So it's as different as chalk and cheese. And they've just got the money, that's all.

"Their squads are [worth] 10m-15m Euros. Our squads are £4m or less, so yes, it [money] talks."

However, Hazell questions whether the WRU can afford to answer the regions' call and introduce the sort of central contracts system that exists in Ireland and Scotland.

He said: "You've got to ask yourself do the WRU have the money to do it?

"And if you're going to pay a player £200,000 and he's going to get £400,000-£500,000 in France where are they going to find all that money from?

"It's not a good position to be in, I can tell you."

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Hazell also admits economic uncertainty in Wales and elsewhere is affecting the Dragons and their Welsh rivals, who also have financial backers underwriting their finances.

"It shouldn't be individual people keeping Welsh rugby alive it should be a WRU decision," he added.

"I do [think] there is too much responsibility on the benefactors at the moment. As things are they can't afford to keep on throwing money at it.

"We definitely can't at the Dragons.

"The Scarlets have got some wonderful players. Are they going to hold on to them?

"What's going to happen? We all are [trying our best]. But there's only so far you can go.

"I think they've got to [WRU come up with something].

"We've all got to look at it together and we've got to find a solution and what that solution is, I don't know.

"We did our best and if we'd gone any farther we'd have bankrupted ourselves."




I guess the question this raises is: if rugby isn't big business in Wales does the WRU say to the regions 'well, either you make more money or you suffer the consequences' and let their best players move overseas, or do they make a decision to bankroll the regions/players? As Hazell says, the regions cannot continue to rely on benefactors. Benefactors have the money that they have because they are astute business men (for the most part). At some point they will do what they do best, i.e. be astute, and pull out before they lose their money. If the WRU don't act now I can see some regions folding. Knowing the WRU (although they seem to have improved lately) they'll probably sit and wait for a region to fold before coming in with their own money to get the region back on its feet. The best players will have left by this point though.

A very tricky situation for the WRU and the regions to be in.

It's an awkward situations for all to be involved in to be sure.

Scarelts are very, very lucky we signed up so many of our stars at the end of last season before the big clubs came calling. We've got them for another 2-3 seasons now. The only one out of contract is John Davies. All the regions can do is hope that they can generate a package and environment that holds more sway over a player than money, and with such short careers in front of them, that's a huge task to overcome. Everyone knows money can talk.

It's clear that we can't keep relying on benefactors though. The WRU need to do something, but whether they'll do the right thing is another question entirely what with their track record. For me, central contracts is the only way forward, but is the money even there to do that??

I thought the £4 million was the cost to buy the squad, while French teams have squads worth more.

If the WRU increase the payments it's no guarentee that the money will be spent on internationals, as I believe Gareth Baber said, would a region want to tie up a lot of it's capital in players that are going to be missing for large parts of the season?

Would we see the payments the WRU makes be used toward building bigger squads rather than retaining the best players?

The only way that the WRU can guarentee their money is used so that the best players stay in Wales is with central contracts for those players. Reduce the payments to the regions (as they will now have their international players wages off their books), and force them to generate more income themselves.

It's an interesting point about how much more money the French leagues have got - but the English league has had to cut it's cloth accordingly, and they have a far bigger budget and fan base than the WRU.

It reminded me of the article with Gareth Baber saying the WRU needs to give the regions more money to compete - http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/16172039.stm
And I just thought that if the blues got rid of all the deadwood expensive 30+ NWQ players then they'd have more than enough budget as it is to keep all their best players AND sign some very good WQ youngsters or top level NWQ players.

I know the dragons aren't in that boat but at least they aren't loosing players to the other regions now and it's taking huge offers to prise some of their players away.

I just think if the WRU continues to increase the money that goes to the regions it will get into a vicious circle where the WRU will have to play more games to make more money, injuring more players, meaning the clubs need bigger squads, meaning they need more money, and in the end it will bankrupt the WRU and the regions...

It really is a double edge sword. Part of the current resurgence (if you can call it that) of the Welsh team has been down to the fact that we've been forced to pick homegrown players, and that's a great thing. However, it probably wouldn't have happened if the regions had been cash rich. Would the Dragons have bought a southern hemisphere no.8 over Faletau? Probably as we have a history of that (Nic Fitesemanu, Grant Webb, Joe Bearman, Bobby Skinstad, etc.). Would Charteris have been given so much game time? Probably not as for about 8 out of his 10 season at Rodney Parade he wasn't very good. Would a rich Scarlets have let North and Scott Williams loose on the world so early? Maybe not. The Blues and Lloyd Williams? etc. etc.

The point is that we've had to let the local talent come through as we can't afford top quality overseas talent any longer. However, for the first time we're seeing that talent start to drain overseas too. So, is it OK as it lets a new wave of talent through thus giving us potentially more depth? Or, is it bad because our best players will be out of the loop and unable to commit to the national cause as much as we want? I think the latter personally.

very well put griff, for me i take i slightly more optimistiv view on it, and prefer the former of the two points you raised, granted at the dragons we dont seem to have a youngster ready to fill in for luke (and in terms o front 5 we are very young and poor quality), but why not go and loan maucauley cook or james downes from the blues for a season? for me i believe we do have the quality in wales as has been shown over the last couple of seasons, the academies ARE working, and will continue to work in a conveyor belt fashion (NZ also suffer from player drain no?) we must have faith in our own youngsters, if we can completely field a welsh exiles XV then that just adds to our options and depth IMO,

a more pressing concern is the business aspect of attendences etc

A long with more cash I thing the WRU should also take more responsibility for decision making away from the regions.

Players being hired and released would have to go through the WRU.

Fitness levels would have to be set by the WRU.

Players game time and selection monitored by the WRU.

Hiring and releasing of coaches and directors of rugby to be heavily governed by the WRU.

Do you really want to give the WRU more power and responsibility? I mean it's not like they've got a particularly good track record of making important decisions or looking after player welfare and fitness or monitoring game time.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Do you really want to give the WRU more power and responsibility? I mean it's not like they've got a particularly good track record of making important decisions or looking after player welfare and fitness or monitoring game time.

Actually their record is wonderful, you look at the shambles Wales were in, in 1999 and look at us now, we were almost bankrupt, we have regions, an affordable business plan, we have won 2 grand slams, The WRU are doing far better now than they ever have before. Throughout the 80's and 90's it was a shambles but not anymore. Wales are punching well above their weight in world rugby.

true - but they have still mismanaged the creation of the regions and mismanage their players, regularly over playing them and leaving them injured for large swarths of the season, they've done well to get out of debt and help/encourage/force/other the regions to set up the academies that are working so well now BUT they still have a long way to go IMO and still have a knack of doing things in a cack handed way - such as when trying to get England-based players released early.

AlynDavies wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Do you really want to give the WRU more power and responsibility? I mean it's not like they've got a particularly good track record of making important decisions or looking after player welfare and fitness or monitoring game time.

Actually their record is wonderful, you look at the shambles Wales were in, in 1999 and look at us now, we were almost bankrupt, we have regions, an affordable business plan, we have won 2 grand slams, The WRU are doing far better now than they ever have before. Throughout the 80's and 90's it was a shambles but not anymore. Wales are punching well above their weight in world rugby.

What is their business plan and wasn't rugby union mostly amateur in the 80's and 90's?

As far as I'm aware the business plan is to ensure the WRU lives within it's means and pay off the ridiculously high amount of debt they had going into the noughties and to also invest in grass roots and the academies (I think, might be wrong).

They definately reduced the debt and the performances on the pitch has improved - but is that just a result of professionalism? (will we ever know?)

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2011/12/17/wru-to-reject-regions-plea-for-top-up-fees-to-halt-player-drain-91466-29966886/