Nadal's Agassi Like Return Of Serve

In the final set of his quarter final with Berdych Nadal started teeing off for winners on return of serve. It was Agassi like! Where did this come from? It reminded me of how he started doing Sampras impressions at the US Open in 2010.

I've heard that Nadal often plays more aggessively in practise. Why is he usually so reluctant to do so during matches?

No need to go back to Agassi. Federer does it everyday. He has the guts to.

Berdy's 1st serve percentage plummeted; that allowed Nadal to step into the court and be more aggressive (after some timely advice from uncle Toni). Simple really.

Tenez

Maybe your right. But why does Nadal appear to lack confidence. You would expect with all that he's achieved that he would be super confident. Maybe someone should tell him how good he is.

Did you see the returns I'm talking about?

If you had a style of play that had won you 10 slams, would you be keen to change it?
Probably not, unless a) you didn't like internet forum criticism
or b) someone came along and started beating you regularly.

hawkeye wrote:Tenez

Maybe your right. But why does Nadal appear to lack confidence. You would expect with all that he's achieved that he would be super confident. Maybe someone should tell him how good he is.

Maybe I shoud tell him.

Did you see the returns I'm talking about?

Yes I saw them but there is a risk involved. He could do the same with his FH and does it more often with his BH but the problem is that he woudl then compete with everybody else on the same weapons. But that's not his strength. Other players are better than him at taking teh ball early with a better ratio of success. He scored some nice points returning early but he also made a few UEs. He became a gambler. However his strength is not taking the ball early, it's his stamina and power. Most of his points come from the UEs of his opponent. So why woudl he take the risk to make UEs himself and cut the job for his opponent?

Tenez

Ha ha! I think you should tell Nadal how good he is. I'm sure it would make a big difference to his confidence.

Of course there is risk involved in attempting to hit returns for winners. He would be crazy to do so too often. But throwing in the odd one would certainly keep his opponants on their toes. They would also be scared of playing serve and volley against him (as so many advise).

"Most of his points come from the UEs of his opponent."
Not sure that the stats would necessarily back that up - Rafa hits plenty of winners, but he does tend to work the rally a bit longer so as to force a weak shot from his opponent that he will then attack with the heavy forehand.

It is though true that he tends to be a lower risk player, and taking on an aggressive return would only be of benefit to him if he was otherwise struggling to impose himself in the longer rallies (e.g. if he was struggling with Berdych's weight of groundstroke) - yes, it may lead to some more errors than is usually the case with him, but if he was losing 7 in 10 points (on Berdy's serve) with a more neutral return and no UEs (because Berdych was dominating the subsequent rallies) and 6 in 10 with an aggressive return (with 3 being UEs) he's still ahead. Sometimes worth the risk (on hard courts or grass), especially against a guy with such an aggressive groundstroke game.

The pressure his opponents are facing is the fact he doesn't give easy point. That adds a great pressure mentally. This is why when they see the finishing line of a game or a set they tend to ruch and make those UEs. Should Nadal start to give easy points, it woudl completely change the dyamic of the game.

Check the stats. His opponents UEs are often the bigger percentage. usually double the amount of his winners.

Well exactly the reason why i think Nadal and even Djokovic and Murray would have been very successful in the 90s and to be honest Federer struggling to hold down a top 10 position, they are way better returner of serves than Federer. We saw in Federer's play in 1999 and also on 90s conditions he struggled badly against big servers until the conditions started slowing down. His best appearance at the USO until 2004 was 4R and guess what? The conditions at the USO were slowed down in 2003.
The like of Nadal and Djokovic would have had no such problem and combine that with their amazing ground strokes and all round play, you have slams written all over them.
Take the weak era for example where Roddick was making slam finals as Federer's competition. This was a player who couldn't return more than 2 serves in a row yet he was making slam finals. When the likes of Nadal, Djokovic came, with their better return game, they easily started beating Federer. The Miami 2004 match between Federer and Nadal shows this further when Nadal just returns Federer serves and a shocked Federer went into a losing mood certainly because the weak competition he was facing at the time had either one of these but not both:
1. Return the serve well but can't construct points and stay in ra
llies

2. Can't return serve well but can manage to stay in the rallies but end up losing the point.

Nadal had both and that was where Federer's problems started.

Wow Nadal actually stood close to the baseline, I guess my posts on the other thread were not in vain and I missed the good part of the match.

S_A Mats would disagree with you, I remember him saying that Fed had the best return of serve ever. Hitting the same shot repeatedly to extend a rally doesn't count as constructing a point.

Simple_Analyst wrote:Well exactly the reason why i think Nadal and even Djokovic and Murray would have been very successful in the 90s and to be honest Federer struggling to hold down a top 10 position, they are way better returner of serves than Federer. We saw in Federer's play in 1999 and also on 90s conditions he struggled badly against big servers until the conditions started slowing down. His best appearance at the USO until 2004 was 4R and guess what? The conditions at the USO were slowed down in 2003.
The like of Nadal and Djokovic would have had no such problem and combine that with their amazing ground strokes and all round play, you have slams written all over them.
Take the weak era for example where Roddick was making slam finals as Federer's competition. This was a player who couldn't return more than 2 serves in a row yet he was making slam finals. When the likes of Nadal, Djokovic came, with their better return game, they easily started beating Federer. The Miami 2004 match between Federer and Nadal shows this further when Nadal just returns Federer serves and a shocked Federer went into a losing mood certainly because the weak competition he was facing at the time had either one of these but not both:
1. Return the serve well but can't construct points and stay in ra
llies

2. Can't return serve well but can manage to stay in the rallies but end up losing the point.

Nadal had both and that was where Federer's problems started.

That's the bit (in bold) I disagree.

Nadal returns like Agassi??

Not a chance.

On 90's Grass, the ball would sail past Nadal

legendkillar wrote:Nadal returns like Agassi??

Not a chance.

On 90's Grass, the ball would sail past Nadal

LK
To be fair, on 90s grass, the ball very often DID sail past everyone, Agassi included. The thing with Agassi was that when he could get a racket on the ball he had great control, and he could string together a series of returns sufficient to get a break per set.

Simple_Analyst wrote:Take the weak era for example where Roddick was making slam finals as Federer's competition.

Now 2009 is a weak era as well? I'm so dull-witted, I can't keep track of it all.

break_in_the_fifth wrote:Wow Nadal actually stood close to the baseline, I guess my posts on the other thread were not in vain and I missed the good part of the match.

S_A Mats would disagree with you, I remember him saying that Fed had the best return of serve ever. Hitting the same shot repeatedly to extend a rally doesn't count as constructing a point.

Really? Someone might have held him at gun point.

Maybe but I remember him saying that Agassi was only the best returner when he picked the right direction, he also got aced a lot. Otherwise that title he reserved for the man.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Simple_Analyst wrote:Take the weak era for example where Roddick was making slam finals as Federer's competition.

Now 2009 is a weak era as well? I'm so dull-witted, I can't keep track of it all.

There was a temporary collapse in the jellied eels market allowing the whelks to gain market share. However the jellied eels were reestablished in late 2009, and Roddick had to return to bottom feeding.

Julius Roddick certainly at Wimbledon 2009 played better tennis than he ever in his life. You see, if he knew how to return serve properly, he would have won in 3 easy sets and wouldn't have needed to choke.

legendkillar wrote:Nadal returns like Agassi??

Not a chance.

On 90's Grass, the ball would sail past Nadal

Watch that final set against Berdych. I think you'll find that he did!

Nadal secretly has a beautiful game and only plays the way he does to annoy tenez.

didn't wilander say hewitt was the best returner of all time or was that someone else

break_in_the_fifth wrote:Nadal secretly has a beautiful game and only plays the way he does to annoy tenez.

I can live with that. It's some his fans that I find particularly cumbersome.

Hewitt who was considered the greatest returner, got kicked out of Wimbledon in 2003 by Karlovic. Federer never lost a set v Karlo at Wimbledon despite having to face Karlo in 2004, like Hewitt, to defend his title.

Fed has also a good record versus great servers like Sampras, Goran, Kraji....So returning he certainly can! Didn't he beat Karlo once again a few days ago?

zx1234 wrote:didn't wilander say hewitt was the best returner of all time or was that someone else

Correct he said that yesterday...which clearly supports the point I make above.

Ok then that invalidates what I said about Mats having Fed as the best.

break_in_the_fifth wrote:Ok then that invalidates what I said about Mats having Fed as the best.

On paper it doesn't. Actually Mats said tat Hewitt was once the best returner.

Anyway, now it's Djoko.

When I heard him he was talking about best ever that's why Agassi was brought up.

So which is which Break_in_fifth? Did he say Agassi is the best returner or Hewitt? Or the amusing mention of Federer? - I know that was a mistake by you anyways. And no Hewitt isn't the best returner of serve ever. Not even close to the current level of Nadal, Murray and Djokovic to start with.

Never mind Karlovic, Nadal has given him breadsticks many times and on hard courts even.

Nadal is a great returner no question. But the strings and conditions have helped players be able to return and the racquets as well. Nadal actually is not a great returner in the same mold as agassi, he is a great returner but a totally different style. Agassi would try to blast every second serve he got a look at while Nadal just wants to limit free points and get a deep and heavy return back. Djoko is the best returner in the world bar none and may someday be considered the best ever with the likes of AA and Jimmy Connors. Djoko has both the aggressive return game of AA and Jimmy and has Nadal's ability to get a lot of serves back and reduce aces and free points.

Simple_Analyst wrote:

Never mind Karlovic, Nadal has given him breadsticks many times and on hard courts even.

Can twice be many? You're pushing it there a little.

More to the point, why do you try to push the boundaries of the truth even when talking about such pointless statistics?

social1976

He wasn't hitting deep and heavy on return against Berdych in that final set.

Federer by the way is a very good returner, I wouldn't call him a great returner at his best he was among the best in the game but never among the top 2 or 3 returners. And oddly enough Roger is a very passive returner in general who rarerly cranks a second serve and pretty much chips every backhand return.

Mats and his colleague yesterday said that Nadal had awful returns. Standing way far back and moonballing. He even said that now Players know and are better prepared to handle those.

I liked the picture from above which showed Nadal standing 4m behind the baseline. That's when the ball is about to bounce a second time with a speed falling under urban speed limits.

Only then does he feels secure enough to time it. Gutless!. Also he had to be told by Daddy Toni to step in, thanks to some great court coaching. Shameless!

Well obviously S_A there's been more than one occasion where he's declared a best server. The one I recalled that happened to be Fed and the other more recent one it was Hewitt hence why I said it invalidates. Nothing amusing about standing on the baseline, anticipating and then attacking the ball as opposed to standing in the first row of the crowd, neutralising the serve and letting 'point construction' take over to climb the return game stats.

Hawkeye, I agree I also noticed how Nadal was being a bit more aggressive and how he hit quite a few winners on Berdy's second serve. Something that I think will serve him well to employ against other competition namely Novak. My post was more in general about their styles. I have seen stretches were both fed and nadal try to gun returns, but it isn't particularly a natural part of their resume although Fed has gotten a bit more aggressive in that aspect since annacone.

The reason I think Rafa was doing that was because I think Berdy hits so big off both sides I don't think Nadal was as confident in just getting back to even with berdych in the rallies. Berdych has so much groundstroking power off both wings that i think Nadal realized that he needed to take the initiative when he got a look at a second serve because berdych has the 1st serve and the groundstrokes to make him pay if he didn't make use of the opportunities.

Well Break_in_fifth, i'm certainly not arguing that Mats didn't say Federer was the best returner of serve ever, i just think such comment can only be under duress - someone holding a gun to his head.

May be 2 weeks from now he will say Roddick.

I should think Mats will have hired better security so you needn't worry.

hawkeye wrote:

legendkillar wrote:Nadal returns like Agassi??

Not a chance.

On 90's Grass, the ball would sail past Nadal

Watch that final set against Berdych. I think you'll find that he did!

Now you are taking the urine!!

Comparing 90's Grass to HC.

hmmm hmmmm

Atleast Rafa is seeing some sense in that 4th set by erasing his bone breaking defensive returns, maybe his IQ has not fully plummeted then, or more likely, it is a one off.

What happens when you push Nadal into a corner and you come to the net. You get passed convincingly, at least on the forehand. He can hit big, and well, when he wants. He's made a tactical decision to mostly not presumably because he thinks he'll win more points that way. There's probably a comfort zone issue now too.