The Problem with English Rugby...?

Various theories attempting to explain perceived English rugby underperformance have been bandied around on these boards and their predecessor boards the old 606 for a long time now.

People have blamed the weather, the system of relegation, poor standards of coaching, the salary cap, our arrogance, Gen Y attitudes and the academy system, the old farts at Twickenham, the media, the number of foreign players in the Jeff, the list goes on.

In truth we as English rugby supporters need to downgrade our expectations. We think that we are better than we are and that is our problem.

It is reflected through the media and perhaps encouraged by them but the perception is wrong. The truth is that were a middling rugby power in the world and save for a fast receding golden time cira 2000-2003 we have been no better than average.

The truth is that were on for the Wooden Spoon this year and I wouldn't be too surprised if we lose every single game this 6N. Every single one. And if that happens we shouldn't pull out our hair and cry about it. We should face up to the fact that in our great game almost invariably the better team does win on the day and that that is a fair indication of where we're at.

We have all been guilty of over rating ourselves and of expecting the impossible from our committed but unskilled players and it's wrong. Why do we do it to ourselves? It is not fair on the players, their routinely sacked coaches or ultimately on ourselves. It is masochism pure and simple and I am as guilty as the next man.

We must individually and collectively accept that we are average, relax, stop sacking coaches and enjoy it a bit more.

The problem with English rugby? I am the problem with English rugby.

hmmm such rational thinking, are you really a welshman in disguise as I can hardly believe taht an English rugby fan could be so objective.

TycroesOsprey wrote:hmmm such rational thinking, are you really a welshman in disguise as I can hardly believe taht an English rugby fan could be so objective.

Here here. Blind optimism only please.

TycroesOsprey

I appreciate your healthy scepticism but im not one of your lot.

I am feeling this way today. Honest that is. I though that while in this mood and safe under the anonymity of these boards i'd say the truth just this once. This doesnt mean that when the blood is up during the 6N i wont be an obnoxious c**t. That i believe is my prerogative.

I was going to suggest that 606V2 has been celebrating the first year and that part of that celebration might very well be an influx of new/old members given that it corresponds with the beginning of 6N.

And behold a pale rider on a pale horse appears. He might have been here all along but it's the first time I've seen him since BBC days. Hello Tri... and welcome

Why do you build me up buttercup? Just to let me down?

Thanks SecretFly

my names kingelderfield and i'm an a supporter of English rugby

come on our u20 side could beat italy and scotland a bit harsh

Mr Cheerful is back

Triangulation, welcome to v2 sir. The man with rugby bipolar. One day swearing tooth and nail England will prevail, the next day lamenting all is doom and gloom.

I understand though where this wavering comes from. You're reigning 6N champions but you underachieved in the World Cup. You've got a lot of injury concerns but you've got some players in good club form. The good news for you is that if you wait a little, you´ll inevitably have something to smile about.

The problem for English Rugby is that they have been by far the most successful Nh team for the last 20 or so years winning World cups 4 Grand slams, numerous championships, beating the SH home and away on 14 consecutive occasions and even winning a 7's World cup.

I'll tell you what the problem is for most of the other NH county's on these threads and its jelousy, pure and simple.

The problem for English Rugby is I am not in charge.

At least we would have lots more pretty girls at the matches, all jerseys would have proper collars, and the beer would be cheap..........

doctor_grey wrote:The problem for English Rugby is I am not in charge.

At least we would have lots more pretty girls at the matches, all jerseys would have proper collars, and the beer would be cheap..........

You have my vote.

doctor_grey wrote:The problem for English Rugby is I am not in charge.

At least we would have lots more pretty girls at the matches, all jerseys would have proper collars, and the beer would be cheap..........

Here here!

HammerofThunor wrote:Mr Cheerful is back

Welcome Tri! The place hasn't been the same without you sir!

Hello again Triangulation, nice to read you again.

Surely you are being a bit harsh on England. I would have said above average as a rugby nation. It makes me wonder how you define what average is?

Who would you say is better than average and what would England have to do to be called that again?

I agree that having a more moderate expectation would help fans to enjoy their rugby and not hate the coaches/players when they turn out not to be the best.

The problem with English Rugby is top down not bottom up...we have a school and academy system that produces big talented youthful rugby players with all the potential to be world class...then we release them into the madness that is the english system controlled by old, arrogant, egotisical, powerhungry suits that are ridiculously out of touch with the real world and how people make decisions, they spend all their time trying to out manoeurve eachother and stab eachother in the back that they can't even hire a member of staff without self combusting.......now after the last debacle they are paying thousands and thousands to city headhunting firm that knows nothing about rugby to recruit the next england manager.

How can we get rid of these oafs....we can change managers as often as we want but the problem is systemic it comes from the top...we only see what goes on on the field and in interviews but the amount of BS that filters down from the board room via squeaky and co is immense.

doctor_grey wrote:The problem for English Rugby is I am not in charge.

At least we would have lots more pretty girls at the matches, all jerseys would have proper collars, and the beer would be cheap..........

I forgot to mention I would send Rob Andrew to St. Helena to manage thier Rugby team.

The RFU is a shambles, obviously, but surely that just puts you on an equal footing with Wales and Scotland. The level of incompetence is breathtaking in those countries too sometimes. The IRFU have their share of arrogant, amateur, old farts too. They just made some decent decisions more than ten years ago and now they think they're the bees knees.

But when it comes to a sporting association running their sport into the ground nobody gets close to Irish soccer's FAI. Clowns, the lot of them. And not the funny kind.

I think the problem is a legacy of the amateur era. We still have the old pharts in charge who were in charge before. The professional era requires modern folks with modern ideas. In other words, people with completely different skill sets than in the olde days. Bring in a few hard nosed business types who like Rugby, and we can get things under control.

I still want the job at Twickenham. The seats would be great (and free).

We expect miracles from new coaches and players before they've had a chance. For all the chopping and changing of coaches and managers and blooding new players we've made no progress. The RFU need to show faith in a set up and manage the media expectations. You can't go from 4th to 1st in a single leap when we rarely get a chance to play the top 3 when it isn't our pre-season or post-season. We beat Australia home and away last year and if not interrupted by the overly biased weighting of the world cup we'd be in second spot, which is a more realistic estimation of where we stand.

I've got a lot of faith in Lancaster and I think the RFU should for once cut the bureaucratic tripe and install him as head coach and lets get on with it.

They should spend their energy instead of in-fighting and dallying with the coaches, pandering to Rob Andrew's ego and bothering with ways to find a job for Clive Woodward, on sorting out the international season so our guys have a chance on the international stage.

With all respect to the OP, I have the exact opposite opinion, we should stop celebrating mediocrity and get real. Look, we should be the number 1 side in the world, we've done it before and we can do it again. I starts with ending the faux respect for poor opposition.

Do you really think England are the second best team in the world?

An inability to beat SA or Ireland means number 2 is an inflated view I'm afraid. This 6N is going to be difficult with so many injuries but a head on match with France not to mention Ireland will give a good indication of where England is at.

To look at last years performances, yes England won the 6N, they were unconvincing in many of the games though and were manshamed against Ireland. The warm up games were average at best and the world cup, well they beat the mighty Romania and Georgia and struggled against Scotland. In another group I doubt they'd have made the knock out rounds. They played a poor France next and were sent packing.

They don't look anywhere near second place to me and anyone who thinks they are must be deluded.

miteyironpaw,
Can't see England near the second spot in the rankings for two big reasons: First we were poopie in the World Cup. That was not a performance one would expect of a top team. Second, England will be putting out a very new team. We really have no idea how good they will be. The potential is to be very good, but most likely they will need time to adjust to each other and the newer International players will need time to adjust to the big stage. All that said, I like Lancaster, and I think he will do a fine job. But we will know real soon.

Your other point was about the RFU needing to stop the bureaucratic in-fighting and all that. The problem is, they can't. As I said earlier in the thread, these blokes date from the amateur era when stakes were lower and this crap hapened all the time. This won't stop until we get new, modern professional managers, administrators, and leaders with a completely professional mind-set. The RFU bureaucracy is larger than all other Unions (not statistically, but based on my observations only) and therefore has more bureaucrats to be changed. Now, I am only talking about people impacting the England squad and all national type teams. The grass roots, still mostly unpaid volunteers, are very, very good and effective.

overlordofthewest wrote:Do you really think England are the second best team in the world?

No, that was a typo. I meant third. Yes we lost to France in NZ, but consistently and recently this has not been the case. We would and should have realistic expectation of participating competitively in a game with anyone in the world and be optimistic of our chances of winning against everyone apart from probably NZ (at current strength) and South Africa. That's not to say we'd concede defeat before the game kicks off, but that on merit, we'd have played extraordinarily well and possibly fortuitously to win and it would be something to be immensely proud of.

In recent times, our bludgeon has been too much for Australia's rapier, we have had the edge on France and aside from a couple of irritating losses to the Welsh and Irish when we've failed to strangle them early or through weight of opportunities the nature of sport has meant that we didn't happen to win, we should realistically expect to beat European opposition (not to say that we would actually beat them every time).

That's where the benchmark is, and as it should be. And anyone who is English who says it is not, then I accuse of being falsely modest.

I love the arrogance of the English fans here.


I once said on the old 606 that Im amazed with Englands sheer amount of players, resources, population, just plain interest in the sport that you are not always number one. Instead you think you have a god given right to be the best but cannot accept your poorer and less populated cousins are better than you. Simply because their players are better than their English counterparts. I cannot think at this time of a single English player who would get into the Welsh, Irish or French starting 15 if they had no injuries.

I also said something along the lines of if you gave Wales your money, resources etc we would be champions of the world forever. Someone wittily retorted 'if you give the wru the rfu's money they'd give it away for magic beans'.

I think both are true.

Whilst the Wru can be a shambles. All the money in the world can't make a good rugby team. England should accept their place which is behind Wales, Ireland and France (possibly Scotland) this year and look to improving next year. Lose against the Scots first game which is likely - after all you haven't beaten them in Murrayfield since a few months after you won the world cup, that was many moons ago - and I can see your first ever defeat at the hands of the Italians next. Then you could be played 2 lost 2 with Wales, France and Ireland to come.

I doubt there would be so much arrogance and cockyness then.

Overlord- 'I doubt there would be so much arrogance or cockyness then'


Maybe not, but if we run short of those 2 attributes i'm sure you would be able to supply us with all we need!! Ha,ha,ha

Wales for the WC, 6 nations et al, but the only trouble is 4 th place beckons, as always.

Interesting thread, some polar opposite opinions here. Someone is going to be right...!

Do we have high expectations though??

You hear the media constantly picking up the teams yes...but when i speak to any fans they are generally honest and realistic....

overlordofthewest wrote:I love the arrogance of the English fans here.


I once said on the old 606 that Im amazed with Englands sheer amount of players, resources, population, just plain interest in the sport that you are not always number one. Instead you think you have a god given right to be the best but cannot accept your poorer and less populated cousins are better than you. Simply because their players are better than their English counterparts. I cannot think at this time of a single English player who would get into the Welsh, Irish or French starting 15 if they had no injuries.

I also said something along the lines of if you gave Wales your money, resources etc we would be champions of the world forever. Someone wittily retorted 'if you give the wru the rfu's money they'd give it away for magic beans'.

I think both are true.

Whilst the Wru can be a shambles. All the money in the world can't make a good rugby team. England should accept their place which is behind Wales, Ireland and France (possibly Scotland) this year and look to improving next year. Lose against the Scots first game which is likely - after all you haven't beaten them in Murrayfield since a few months after you won the world cup, that was many moons ago - and I can see your first ever defeat at the hands of the Italians next. Then you could be played 2 lost 2 with Wales, France and Ireland to come.

I doubt there would be so much arrogance and cockyness then.

Interesting opinion. What is your basis for concluding that England will lose to Wales, Ireland, France and maybe Scotland? We haven't lost a competitive game to Wales in a long time. Ireland, well I can't see a repeat of that anomaly this year given the relative strengths of the sides and the relevant injuries and the schedule this year. Scotland should be a long overdue rout and France, well maybe, it should be the best game of the championship.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Do we have high expectations though??

Geordie,

Read the posts above and below yours. Some England fans are realistic but others think you are one of the top teams in world rugby.

Mafia.....

Ignore the wums matey....they're just working it...

doctor_grey wrote:The problem for English Rugby is I am not in charge.

At least we would have lots more pretty girls at the matches, all jerseys would have proper collars, and the beer would be cheap..........

Did someone say collars, girls and beer?

Dublin 4 (Leinster rugby in other words) have that sorted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZJwC_vp-_Q

Now THAT is truly funny. Thanks.

overlordofthewest wrote:I love the arrogance of the English fans here.


I once said on the old 606 that Im amazed with Englands sheer amount of players, resources, population, just plain interest in the sport that you are not always number one. Instead you think you have a god given right to be the best but cannot accept your poorer and less populated cousins are better than you. Simply because their players are better than their English counterparts. I cannot think at this time of a single English player who would get into the Welsh, Irish or French starting 15 if they had no injuries.

I also said something along the lines of if you gave Wales your money, resources etc we would be champions of the world forever. Someone wittily retorted 'if you give the wru the rfu's money they'd give it away for magic beans'.

I think both are true.

Whilst the Wru can be a shambles. All the money in the world can't make a good rugby team. England should accept their place which is behind Wales, Ireland and France (possibly Scotland) this year and look to improving next year. Lose against the Scots first game which is likely - after all you haven't beaten them in Murrayfield since a few months after you won the world cup, that was many moons ago - and I can see your first ever defeat at the hands of the Italians next. Then you could be played 2 lost 2 with Wales, France and Ireland to come.

I doubt there would be so much arrogance and cockyness then.

I think this is a little unfair. Some fans for sure, but all? And our interest in the sport is well below that of pretty much all rugby playing nations apart from maybe Australia and Scotland. We're a football nation like it or not. Yes, we should be better with the resources but that seems to be of secondary importance to a rugby culture.

This England team is an unknown quantity. Not necessarily a bad thing. It means the opposition won't have worked us out yet.

Another positive - 1st season on the job Kidney and Gatland won slams. Very optimistic to think England can do the same but if they can beat Scotland and Italy away then maybe.....

It all depends on how England play against Scotland. I think the breakdown is the key. England have struggled in all the games where they have struggled to get quick ball. England need to play Scotland at a high tempo - a level the Scots will be unused to.

England no longer have the pack to bully the opposition. The pack is based more around athleticism than power so let's use the quicker more dynamic players.

England need to make the bigger Scottish pack chase shadows.

In Hodgson,Barritt and Farrell you have three playmakers. Though not the quickest they all offer options. Their job is to mix things up and unleash the dangerous back three. If Farrell is given place kicking duties Hodgson can focus on getting the backline going.

If Hodgson makes a mini break we have to hope that Ashton is on his shoulder.

Youngs need to make sure his service is as quick as possible. The more time he gives Hodgson the better.

Dynamism and creativity are what England need to be.

Everything was going well, and my hopes for England were rising, not in a Welsh 'Hot air' kind of way, but in a qualified, thoughtful, even hopeful manner, and then someone mentioned 'Champagne' Charlie Hodgeson and all my dreams turned to ashes. What is that man doing near an England shirt?!! he should be banned from going anywhere near the England set-up.

Hodgeson has no bottle, no tackling, no ideas and can't kick, and those my friends are his good points. Get him out and keep him out.

Come on England, there must be someone better than a man who has failed every challenge and trial going. Isn't there???

English warrior have you watched any rugby recently? Hodgson's tackling has greatly improved. Only need to watch some of his performances this season to see a calm and assured fly half at work.

Beshocked- I hope that i'm wrong and that you are correct, so i'll bide my time and make an assessment after his next England game, but quite frankly i don't hold out much hope!!

overlordofthewest wrote:I love the arrogance of the English fans here.

I've been thinking about this whole idea of "arrogance". Maybe it's because the sun is shining, but I can't help but feel...you know what? it's just a game. Surely the point is to enjoy it and the odd hyperbole in description of your teams chances is acceptable. A little bit of over-enthusiasm surely can't be taken with such offence by fans of another team. Why the thin skins everywhere? At the end of the day, someone will win and their fans will get to crow about it a little bit. Who really cares? It's not like it's international politics or anything, nobody is actually invading anywhere or stealing anything or doing anyone any harm.

Why does everyone get so upset?

miteyironpaw wrote:

overlordofthewest wrote:I love the arrogance of the English fans here.

I've been thinking about this whole idea of "arrogance". Maybe it's because the sun is shining, but I can't help but feel...you know what? it's just a game. Surely the point is to enjoy it and the odd hyperbole in description of your teams chances is acceptable. A little bit of over-enthusiasm surely can't be taken with such offence by fans of another team. Why the thin skins everywhere? At the end of the day, someone will win and their fans will get to crow about it a little bit. Who really cares? It's not like it's international politics or anything, nobody is actually invading anywhere or stealing anything or doing anyone any harm.

Why does everyone get so upset?

Because we use sport as a (far safer) substitute for wars etc which would be our usual outlet for patriotism and aggression and the need to win and so these rather passionate emotions are likely to get out of control for some individuals? People treat these games as a way to express the difficulties between Nations that have existed in the past, but this vitriol and defensiveness is better than actual violence that we have not evolved out of our system yet (because it's useful)?

This is just theory of course but I assumed this is one reason why people get so involved and emotional about sport and why there is a certain appeal in contact sports as well.

miteyironpaw wrote: it's just a game.

WHAT?

miteyironpaw wrote:It's not like it's international politics or anything, nobody is actually invading anywhere or stealing anything or doing anyone any harm.

Why does everyone get so upset?

Try telling the Greeks that nobody is invading anywhere...... but you're right on all fronts. You do any 'crowing' here sometimes and you better have a damn good lawyer - who can bring forth the appropriate paperwork that quite states clearly you've also admitted all the other sides are decent teams that on their day could wipe your side off the park. You don't have that paperwork, and it's a court summons.

So if an English fan thinks that English should be a good team due to resources etc they're arrogant. If a (in this case) Welsh poster thinks England should win due to resources he's a....what? Money can't buy ayou a good team but England should have the best team because they have the most money?

Any more contradictions you want to throw out there overlordofthewest?

One day the IRB may set team sizes as a fraction of registered players. Then we might be consistently number one (que the joke about [team A] playing [team B] and part way through the game most of [team A] go to the pub leaving just [player]. At the end of the game [player] goes to the rest of [team A] and says the final score was 147-3 and somefrom [team A] asks how they scored and [player] says he was sent off for the last 10 minutes (you see the joke was that [team B] couldn't score a try even with no-one on the field)