France - Ireland one win in 40 years....

First topic message reminder :

Regardless as to whether we had beaten Wales off the park last week it is a fact that our record against France is as bad as our record against SH nations. Our win ratio is terrible and we have beaten them only 9 times in the last 40 years. We have only won twice in Paris back in 72 and lately in 2000 when BOD scored the hattrick (against what was arguably one of the weakest French teams put out).

So if Ireland win next weekend in Paris it will be a major victory for us. The French when they play Ireland enjoy the occassion completely as they never expect to lose (regardless of how their clubs are doing in the HC).

So who expects us to do well or are we on a hiding to nothing? What if we go there and win, does that vindicate Kidney as coach or as has been said with games like Australia it was the players wot won it not the coach....

With all the wailing and gnashing of teeth and the usual suspects (specifically Leinster supporters) blinded by there own infallibility (in other words our players who are doing so well in the HC - against mediocre opponents - cant play that badly due to their own inadequacies so therefore it is down to the coach) moaning about Kidney....what is the expectation next weekend.

I actually like Whitten as a call. Think he is underrated in Ulster. Would have liked Munster to sign him over Downey.

I wouldn't drop ferris he's been unbelievable this season and after last week he'll have a point to prove. Expect a huge performance from him.

Golden wrote:I wouldn't drop ferris he's been unbelievable this season and after last week he'll have a point to prove. Expect a huge performance from him.

I think it's a little more complicated than that I think, although I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment.

I agree, many of the players, not just Ferris, will have reason enough to have a point or two to prove - as many of them 'underperformed'. But I'd suggest it was the team that underperfomed, and not the individuals themselves that made it up.
So if Ferris has a point to prove, and I hope he does prove it, he'll need a team around him to make the point effective. If we structure ourselves to be the attacking, aggressive side and not the side soaking up pressure in defence all day, then Ferris will be more effective and make his point. If he has some monumental belligerent moments of greatness, he better hope the rest of them are there to service the effort and turn it into gold.

This side as it is structured and as the players are told to play (forever cautious) will stifle that desire to prove a point. The point will be an inventive attacking game that beats France.

when will they do a france under lievremont and just start playing for themselves? something has to give if we finish 3rd or 4th in 6 nations which is a real possibility.

players are making individual errors sure. in some cases errors that they wouldnt make for their province/club but the poor performances have been going on for too long to not look seriously at our coaching team

dublin_dave wrote:
players are making individual errors sure. in some cases errors that they wouldnt make for their province/club but the poor performances have been going on for too long to not look seriously at our coaching team

Oh I think everyone is now clear after last weekend. I think those that need to know now fully know - and that can only be a good thing. The players want an effective gameplan, can play one, have the skill sets to effect one. The coaching staff know where eyes are now and hopefully they realise talk of developing ideas, and modifying little things, and 'trying out a few things' is over. From now on we want something solid, something that will get the fans spirits up and the player's tails up - and all eyes are on our coaches.

After being robbed last week I wish Ireland well.

HERSH wrote:After being robbed last week I wish Ireland well.

You crack me up

Vincent Clerc's worried about the weather in Paris

France winger Vincent Clerc believes bitterly cold weather could make the Stade de France pitch dangerous and unplayable even if Saturday's Six Nations clash with Ireland gets the go ahead.

He said: "If it's minus 7 (degrees Celsius) on Saturday, there is reason for concern over the frozen pitch."

We'll let them play it in Lansdowne or even Croke Park if they want.................. just being neighbourly. The offer is open.

So here is the other question / item in this thread...given winning in Paris is worse than Munsters record against the all blacks ( much worse). Would a win in Paris make people think differently about Kidney or is everyone entrenched in their provincial based bias towards him?

DOD wrote:So here is the other question / item in this thread...given winning in Paris is worse than Munsters record against the all blacks ( much worse). Would a win in Paris make people think differently about Kidney or is everyone entrenched in their provincial based bias towards him?

Given that its Leinster, Ulster, Connacht and even some Munster fans that don't think hes the right man to bring us on would surely point to the fact that the provincial bias is coming from the one-eyed Munster fans who think hes the second coming?

We are capable of beating France in France and it will be a great achievement if we do just like winning the slam and beating australia were. But if we do win the following week we'll return to playing the standard dross as usual. Kidneys Irish team has never shown the consistency required of them. Winning one tough match every so often just isnt good enough.

Basically it's pretty much impossible to guess what will happen in this game as Ireland have often alternated the poor with the sublime in recent years (you weren't amazing on sunday- maybe it's time for the sublime?) and France are basically proof that lazy clichés about Nationalities are often correct. Your head cannot tell you how either of those teams is going to perform, you can only guess with gut feeling

Surely France has other stadia to use that aren't already taken?

France usaly up their game against Ireland, just like they do against England......Ireland playing France in France is normaly a one way game, France all the way.

In all honesty i realy expected Ireland to win last week against Wales, and win with some margin too. But seeing how Wales dominated them up front i realy cannot see France losing this week.

provincial bias hahahahaha.

sure its nothing to do with us under performing for the last 2 years playing turgid horrible rugby and a lot of people spending hard earned cash to watch said turgid horrible rugby (with the best playing resources an Irish coach has ever had)

if deccie was getting consistent results playing unattractive rugby he would be fine. he isnt people ask questions, some reasonable some unreasonable. that is sport and that is what internet forums are for.

france are infinitely more consistent than ireland at international level.

Golden wrote:

DOD wrote:So here is the other question / item in this thread...given winning in Paris is worse than Munsters record against the all blacks ( much worse). Would a win in Paris make people think differently about Kidney or is everyone entrenched in their provincial based bias towards him?

Given that its Leinster, Ulster, Connacht and even some Munster fans that don't think hes the right man to bring us on would surely point to the fact that the provincial bias is coming from the one-eyed Munster fans who think hes the second coming?

We are capable of beating France in France and it will be a great achievement if we do just like winning the slam and beating australia were. But if we do win the following week we'll return to playing the standard dross as usual. Kidneys Irish team has never shown the consistency required of them. Winning one tough match every so often just isnt good enough.

Ah now Golden I do think Kidney has issues but I also think the players have things to answer for as well. In addition I think that HC success has risen the bar but in a lot of cases this success has been underpinned by NIQ players in important positions (Munster being a good case in point at the moment). Its still the case that POC, BOD, Woodie are the only Worldclass players we have or have had and we dont have many of those coming through at the moment.

DOD keeps mentioning Provincial bias...but then that's like the Atheist who eternally contemplates the idea of God (Dawkins!).

If you don't like Provincial bias as a subject matter don't constantly try to squeeze it out of every blessed topic.

If the team win with a positive, aggressive, attacking game (like against England last year) I'll say job well done, now why couldn't you have brought that intensity to a home game against Wales? And keep it up Declan - this is the brand we want.

That's what I'll say. Kidney isn't the problem - the bland, predictable, negative and defensive gameplan he oversees right now is. Change that and he'll be back in the good books. It's simple. It isn't complicated and it has nothing to do with where he came from or who he coached in the past.

I think Kidney has some great attributes as coach. The players like him, hes a great man manager and is extremely loyal. The players want to play for him and that says a lot.

He is however very naive tactically. We don't have a cohesive game plan or a consistant selection policy in key positions which is needed to develop a consistant gameplan.

At this level it simply isn't enough to pick XV good players in a happy and motivated frame of mind and tell them to go and play rugby with their heads up.

You have to pick the players which best fit the gameplan which is best able to beat a particular opponent and best suits your strengths and also have a back up plan from the bench if your original gameplan isn't working.

The coach also has to be able to spot turning points in the game and make changes accordingly.

This is where Kidney and therefore Ireland fall short of the very best right now.

DOD wrote:So here is the other question / item in this thread...given winning in Paris is worse than Munsters record against the all blacks ( much worse). Would a win in Paris make people think differently about Kidney or is everyone entrenched in their provincial based bias towards him?

Provincial bias has nothing to do with - going out with a poor game plan does.

As to a win in Paris first things first I would be delighted.

Secondly it depends how it is achieved.

A poor quality game whilst leaving me delighted would not alter the problems I beleive we have.

A high quality game, with new tactics, will be an admission by Kindey he got it wrong against Wales.

A high quality game, with the same tactics, will have me coming on here quite prepared to eat humble pie and admiting I was wrong

The players have to shoulder some of the blame if they want to be amoungst the best in the world they need to show some individual creativity at times

For me in recent times the international games have suffered because players go through preplanned routines and runs rather than thinking for themselves. Ireland showed this a lot last year now theyve went the other way whereas Wales I think showed a variety of ideas and approaches against Ireland

geoff998rugby wrote:

DOD wrote:So here is the other question / item in this thread...given winning in Paris is worse than Munsters record against the all blacks ( much worse). Would a win in Paris make people think differently about Kidney or is everyone entrenched in their provincial based bias towards him?

Provincial bias has nothing to do with - going out with a poor game plan does.

As to a win in Paris first things first I would be delighted.

Secondly it depends how it is achieved.

A poor quality game whilst leaving me delighted would not alter the problems I beleive we have.

A high quality game, with new tactics, will be an admission by Kindey he got it wrong against Wales.

A high quality game, with the same tactics, will have me coming on here quite prepared to eat humble pie and admiting I was wrong

Agree with all of that. That would do me. Even if we lost narrowly. I dont want blood. If a (any) game plan, shows signs of working, and we show we can take them on and attack them - as well as defend, then its a major step forward. If he wins with it style - then he is really on the turn.

And Decco, he's not Munster's coach anymore (let it go) - he is Ireland's. So, we all have a right to an opinion on him. I dont care if he was a next-door neighbour or my favourite Uncle from Cork - he has failed in his remit. Up till now.

You will win in Paris.

Yachvili is out,Parra comes in to scrum half in his place.

Glas a du wrote:You will win in Paris.

+ 100

marty2086 wrote:The players have to shoulder some of the blame if they want to be amoungst the best in the world they need to show some individual creativity at times

For me in recent times the international games have suffered because players go through preplanned routines and runs rather than thinking for themselves. Ireland showed this a lot last year now theyve went the other way whereas Wales I think showed a variety of ideas and approaches against Ireland

It's easy to spot players having a bad day at the office - and boy do they get it in the neck here when they do. Nobody is saying players are blameless. They are tasked with making a gameplan work. If they are not up to the job, it can be quite easy to determine.

But again, even if individual players are having rough days, this inconsistency and downright dreadful International standard play is so ingrained now, so repetitive, so predictable (for the opposition) that you can't point fingers at individual players and say he's the reason the gameplan didn't work today, and those two are responsible for why it didn't work last month, and that guy there made a bollix of the gameplan last year!

If different players are having a nightmare with the same gameplan over and over and over - then a betting man would start to suspect the gameplan itself - the muddled one, the non-existent one.

I actually do see a gameplan in the coaches mind - I think they even alluded to it a while back. Defend solidly until opportunity arises, go for the opportunity and reform to consolidate anything you've won until the next opportunity arises when the attacking side lose defensive awareness. It's an special forces game - in, quick kill, retreat, regroup and prepare for another incursion. I think it falls down in the drill, people are seldom on the same page about when they are in defensive or attacking mode. If it's a plan it needs more attention to the synchronising of watches!

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Yachvili is out,Parra comes in to scrum half in his place.

Thats a major bonus. He makes them tick. Parra - does not.

Ireland Team,

1 Healy
2 Best
3 Ross
4 Doc
5Poc
6 O'Brien
7 O'Mahonu
8 Heaslip
9 Murray
10 Sexton
11 Trimble
12 Ferris
13 Earls
14 Bowe
15 Kearney

DOD wrote:


Ah now Golden I do think Kidney has issues but I also think the players have things to answer for as well. In addition I think that HC success has risen the bar but in a lot of cases this success has been underpinned by NIQ players in important positions (Munster being a good case in point at the moment). Its still the case that POC, BOD, Woodie are the only Worldclass players we have or have had and we dont have many of those coming through at the moment.

Yes those teams relied heavily on niqs but that's not an excuse when we have 4 teams to pick from. For example Leinster relied heavily on Hines for their hc but for Ireland we have poc who is a better player to make up for it. Munster are weak on props but Leinster have Healy and Ross. Leinster were weak at iq hookers, ulster had best and munster had flannery. With the four provinces we can more then make up for the weaknesses niqs fill in the provinces.

dont think parra weakens them massively to be honest. still a very good composed scrum half who can kicks goals

completely different challenge to Phillips.

Earls into the team for McFadden. Great work Deccie cos that'll improve our defense.

for once i wanted reddan in for this game. especially now parra is in this game is well suited for sexton. i cant even get excited for this one

Gibson wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Yachvili is out,Parra comes in to scrum half in his place.

Thats a major bonus. He makes them tick. Parra - does not.

Disagree. Would rather face Yash the lash than Parratrouper any day.

The team I saw does not feature O'Mahony btw. Earls the only change and McF to the bench. Which is back to where we were before Earls had to pull out.

Yep that's the only change. Kearney Jr out of squad

Ryan has to get in the team surely.O'Callaghan wasn't bad but Ryan is a level above him at the moment and showed it when he came on last sunday.

no surprises there to be honest. not sure who could have made us more solid at 13.

stilll on paper a lot of decent players. lets hope we summons a performance from somewhere.

When is the team announced?

keep up rodders been announced.

10 changes. 6 debuts. recall for dion o cuinnegain

Parra hasn't been so unsussessful against the Irish, has he? (the guys who rewatch every game four or five times can tell me where I'm wrong..I won't mind) But I somehow get the impression he likes playing us...I think I don't like him simply because he likes playing against us.

WillyGilly wrote:Earls into the team for McFadden. Great work Deccie cos that'll improve our defense.

Who would you put in there instead.
Bowe who has played one international match at centre 3 years ago against a second string Springboks team??

Why has Henry been kept back if he isn't even on the bench

geoff998rugby wrote:Why has Henry been kept back if he isn't even on the bench

Cover in case there's a late withdrawal probably.

Does anyone seriously believe that even if we summon a performancen it will mean anything? We thought the tide was turning after the england game last year, we dared to dream after Australia. I am finding it very hard to get enthused about the national team at the minute. Deccie seems to be O'sullivan all over again

Why the hell not? Or Trimble even? Didn't you watch sunday's match. Roberts, Davies and North ran through our centres like they weren't there. You think Rougerie isn't planning on doing the same?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Why has Henry been kept back if he isn't even on the bench

Cover in case there's a late withdrawal probably.

Where is Ruddock for Leinster then? Both O'Malley and Kearney Jr weren't releasedmfor Leinster either

Standulstermen wrote:Does anyone seriously believe that even if we summon a performancen it will mean anything? We thought the tide was turning after the england game last year, we dared to dream after Australia. I am finding it very hard to get enthused about the national team at the minute. Deccie seems to be O'sullivan all over again

That's the big problem,it's going to take a lot more than one good performance to restore faith in the national team.Kidney had the backing of the fans when he came in and then winning the Grand Slam meant he earned the right to take us to the world cup but he hasn't brought the team forward since 2009 and it looks like his time as head coach will be remembered for wasting the best players ever available to an Irish team.

Stand, I am pretty sure I read that EOM is injured. No idea about the rest.

Cool Rory. If there are reasons behind it then fair enough.

Standulstermen wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Why has Henry been kept back if he isn't even on the bench

Cover in case there's a late withdrawal probably.

Where is Ruddock for Leinster then? Both O'Malley and Kearney Jr weren't releasedmfor Leinster either

Well they would cover the centre and back 3 positions,Ruddock as lock cover? I don't know that does seem strange.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Why has Henry been kept back if he isn't even on the bench

Cover in case there's a late withdrawal probably.

Where is Ruddock for Leinster then? Both O'Malley and Kearney Jr weren't releasedmfor Leinster either

Well they would cover the centre and back 3 positions,Ruddock as lock cover? I don't know that does seem strange.

Could be actually as Tuohy is released given the ulster team. Fairy Nuff so.