Ulster v Edinburgh, Friday 2nd March, Ravenhill (kick off 7.05pm)

First topic message reminder :

Ulster Team and replacements to face Edinburgh, Friday 2nd March 2012, Ravenhill (kick-off 7.05pm)

(15-9): A D'Arcy; C Gilroy, I Whitten, P Wallace (capt), S Terblanche; R Pienaar, P Marshall;
(1-8): P McAllister, A Kyriacou, J Afoa, L Stevenson, D Tuohy, P Wannenburg, W Faloon, R Diack;
Replacements (16-23): N Brady, C Black, A Macklin, N McComb, M McComish, I Humphreys, L Marshall, C Cochrane

Edinburgh Rugby team:
15 Tom Brown; 14 Sep Visser ,13 Matt Scott, 12 John Houston, 11 Tim Visser; 10 Phil Godman, 9 Chris Leck; 1 Kyle Traynor, 2 Andrew Kelly, 3 Ulises Gamboa, 4 Grant Gilchrist 5 Sean Cox, 6 Stuart McInally, 7 Roddy Grant CAPTAIN, 8 Netani Talei. Substitutes: 16 Alun Walker, 17 Robin Hislop, 18 Jack Gilding, 19 Robert McAlpine, 20 Hamish Watson, 21 Alex Black, 22 Harry Leonard, 23 Chris Paterson

Edinburgh Rugby team to play Ulster at Ravenhill in the RaboDirect PRO12 on Friday 12 March (kick-off 7.05pm): 15 Tom Brown; 14 Sep Visser ,13 Matt Scott, 12 John Houston, 11 Tim Visser; 10 Phil Godman, 9 Chris Leck; 1 Kyle Traynor, 2 Andrew Kelly, 3 Ulises Gamboa, 4 Grant Gilchrist 5 Sean Cox, 6 Stuart McInally, 7 Roddy Grant CAPTAIN, 8 Netani Talei. Substitutes: 16 Alun Walker, 17 Robin Hislop, 18 Jack Gilding, 19 Robert McAlpine, 20 Hamish Watson, 21 Alex Black, 22 Harry Leonard, 23 Chris Paterson

Unavailable through injury: Ben Cairns (knee), James King (groin), Steven Lawrie (knee), Alan MacDonald (illness), Lewis Niven (back) Jim Thompson (ankle), Steven Turnbull (ankle)

Unavailable through international duty: Mike Blair, Geoff Cross, Nick De Luca, David Denton, Ross Ford, Allan Jacobsen, Lee Jones, Greig Laidlaw, Ross Rennie

In all honesty, I can barely credit that some on here are talking about try bonus points.

We have seven players injured and five players absent due to international duties, a weak backrow who have hardly played together, our best available player (Pienaar) is lining up out of position, and Paddy is – I think – the sixth player to captain Ulster (Muller, Best, Henry, Stevenson, Afoa) this season.

I’m hoping that being at home will just about see us to victory.

You just need to look at the bottom list of international players unavailable to understand why we are struggling so much without them!

Our team is as expected, which means I still think we're getting humped!

good(Godman) at 10??

Don Alfonso wrote:In all honesty, I can barely credit that some on here are talking about try bonus points.

We have seven players injured and five players absent due to international duties, a weak backrow who have hardly played together, our best available player (Pienaar) is lining up out of position, and Paddy is – I think – the sixth player to captain Ulster (Muller, Best, Henry, Stevenson, Afoa) this season.

I’m hoping that being at home will just about see us to victory.

Don, that's against 7 injured and 9 away with Scotland for Embra tho? Think you'll take this one pretty handily. Would one of the Ulster fans mind watching (and reporting back no) how MacAlpine and Watson fare if they get on? Cheers

With 13 missing I will settle for a win.

I know Edinburgh have players missing but they have a handy set of threes, we have a weak backrow and an experimental half back pairing.

Don Alfonso wrote:In all honesty, I can barely credit that some on here are talking about try bonus points.

We have seven players injured and five players absent due to international duties, a weak backrow who have hardly played together, our best available player (Pienaar) is lining up out of position, and Paddy is – I think – the sixth player to captain Ulster (Muller, Best, Henry, Stevenson, Afoa) this season.

I’m hoping that being at home will just about see us to victory.

I have full faith in the Ulster starting XV Don, apart from maybe the backrow. In the backs I would have called for the current back three ahead of Whitten on the wing anyway, so i dont see that as weaker. I also don't see a huge difference between Whitten and Spence at 13 on current form.

I say we will do just fine, but perhaps a try bonus point is pushing it a bit! SUFTUM!

geoff998rugby wrote:With 13 missing I will settle for a win.

I know Edinburgh have players missing but they have a handy set of threes, we have a weak backrow and an experimental half back pairing.

Pieenar I'd comfortably class as a world class player (and significantly better than Godman) and your scrum half absolutely tore us a new one when he came as a sub in the reverse fixture at Murrayfield. Electric pace.

Pienaar, Wannenburg, wallace, Tuohy, Afoa, Mcallister, terblanche still in the team though lads. We need 5 points here to keep the pressure on.

Yet again shafted by the absence of Henry.

WillyGilly wrote:Yet again shafted by the absence of Henry.

I don't see it that way Willy. I'm delighted that Henry is being rewarded for his form. He's clearly 5th choice backrower now and very close to adding to his caps.

Thats still a decent backrow we have and Diack and Faloon are getting much needed gametime. Everyone's a winner.

Rewarded by holding tackle bags though..

Rodders, Diack and Falloon have been getting loads of game time recently. What we need is for both of them to up the ante a bit.
I hope Pedrie is fully fit because the last time Diack, Faloon and McComish played together they were as effective as a chocolate fireguard.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Rewarded by holding tackle bags though..

You have to start somewhere Rory..... if you're not in then you can't win

Rava Faloon's played pretty well recently I think and even Diack has shown glimpses of his old class. Both need to up the ante physically but more games won't do them any harm.

Faloon has been good at times but he does always seem to have a wee spell in every game when he just zones out.

Is it a concentration thing?

I think Faloon just lacks the physicality and fitness needed at this level Mrs P. He has the brain, skills and commitment.

You'd think the fitness staff would be able to develop him a bit more, he hasn't really kicked on from last season physically.

We should send him to those polish Ice chambers..... I heard George North was 5'7 and 12 st when they sent him out there! ......

I think the feeling at the club is Faloon cant do it week in week out - they need to cherry pic when he plays.

I agree with that.

Do you think it's a fitness issue?

I would be amazed if that were so. It just to me looks like he loses concentration during matches.

The whole backrow needs to up the ante. Wannenburg too was flat last week- understandably so, given he was coming back from injury but still.

geoff998rugby wrote:I think the feeling at the club is Faloon cant do it week in week out - they need to cherry pic when he plays.

I agree with that.

Thats interesting Geoff. To be honest I'd be asking questions about our physios and fitness staff if that were the case. There's no reason why Faloon can't be developed to a point were he can play every week... in fact he really should be getting to that stage now.

In fact I'd say that our record of developing players physically and keeping them fit is very poor: Spence, Marshall, Cave, McCallistar, Diack, Wallace, Trimble,Payne, Tuohy and Ferris all have had either long term or recurring injury problems...BJ had an appalling injury record with us. Stretching further back Simon Bests heart condition went unnoticed too.

Just bad luck or are we off the pace behind the scenes?

Rodders I think thats a bit unfair I don't think you can blame the staff for injuries such as Marshall, Payne, Wallace etc. Players will always pick up injuries. Some will be more prone to them than others.

We've seem to have a lot Rava, especially the young guys.

I'm not making a judgement here, just posing the question.

I do think its odd that someone like Willie doesn't seemed to have improved physically from last year.

I don't think there is much of an issue about him physically. He certainly looks fit enough to me. I think maybe his treatment this season could have something to do with it. Right at the start of the season he played well in one game and for the next wasn't even on the bench. These guys are human and need to be kept motivated. When you get replaced like that its very hard to keep going.

Well going by the flawed Ulster website, Faloon apparently has shot up to 6 foot 3 and now weights 115kg! Similarly Spence has shrunk to 5 foot 10. At least they fixed Wannenburg's stats. Last year he apparently only weighed 15 stone!

In all seriousness though, with regards to Faloon, I have been thinking it is a fitness problem, rather than his physicality (or lack of it). The talk that he fades way at certain periods in the game, it reminds me of other players who are lacking in fitness at the highest levels. Ben Morgan for England is a good example. He looked like he could make a huge difference, but he really went missing at times. A lack of intensity is another factor, but there are many players in Ireland this applies to.

you could say something similar about Munster and PoC injury nightmare, Jones, Wallace's long injury, Earls picks up a few knocks as well, I think its the game itself.

Good point Rava. Perhaps motivation is an issue, the same with Diack?

Maybe a new coaching set up will rejuvinate these guys physically and mentally?

I do think there is a physical issue wth Faloon though, hes what 14.5-15st and looks to have a bit of body fat there too. Compare him to Warburton whos naturally not that much bigger but looks like hes from the planet krypton.

roddersm wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:I think the feeling at the club is Faloon cant do it week in week out - they need to cherry pic when he plays.

I agree with that.

Thats interesting Geoff. To be honest I'd be asking questions about our physios and fitness staff if that were the case. There's no reason why Faloon can't be developed to a point were he can play every week... in fact he really should be getting to that stage now.

In fact I'd say that our record of developing players physically and keeping them fit is very poor: Spence, Marshall, Cave, McCallistar, Diack, Wallace, Trimble,Payne, Tuohy and Ferris all have had either long term or recurring injury problems...BJ had an appalling injury record with us. Stretching further back Simon Bests heart condition went unnoticed too.

Just bad luck or are we off the pace behind the scenes?

Rodders,

I have no inside knowledge on Simon Best's condition but if he suffered from what I think was the problem there could be no criticism of the medical staff for failing to diagnose an asymptomatic condition.

Unless you have more specific info on his case you are could be being very unfair.

Mrs P fair enough, perhaps screening for such heart conditions was not as advanced or widely carried in 2007. The volume of high profile SCD victims in recent years has perhaps advanced things a bit on this front.

I accept it was a bad example and unfair.

My point though is that people are very quick to criticise individual players but the club and backroom staff have a responsibility for ensuring players reach a required level of physical readiness to perform and our record, particularly with young players is not that great.

I think you may be confusing certain forms of heart problems that can be diagnosed at an asymptomatic stage with one that cannot!

Mrs P I thought Best had an irregular heart rhythm? Couldn't this be picked up on an echocardiogram? If so this is standard screening in many sports?

My knowledge on human physiology is very limited but in a veterinary context irregular heart rhythms develop in animals which have a very high fitness, like greyhound, race horses and well exercised pet dogs, so irregular heart rhythms are not so uncommon among athletes.

however the are a number of congenital heart conditions which are normally detected when they cause a problem i.e putting exponential stress on the heart to the point where the heart is not able to function properly. i believe this is the type simon had. these problems can be detected but it requires scanning of the abdominal cavity and heart, which is not common practice and is usually carried out on patients whose parents have a history of these type of conditions

then again this is from a veterinary context and human medicine could approach things completely differently

Sorry to bore you with this but it is an area that interests me .

5 years ago I think you may have a point by now we employ top notch medical techniques.

I just think it is the modern game.

I believe Faloon struggles to remain focused week in week out.

if you remember there was a spate of GAA players in Tyrone who dropped dead during matches due to undiagnosed heart conditions, which fits as Gaelic is one of the most physically exerting games about.

Echo will only show structural abnormalities.

There are many rhythm disturbances where the heart is structurally normal and yet it can, under certain conditions, develop dangerous problems. Some of these can be seen on ECG while many can not.

OK thanks Dick, Mrs P ... ok off topic, sorry I brought it up but thats interesting Dick non the less.

Disappointed to hear that about Faloon Geoff. I thought he was very consistant last year up until about April. I presumed that the physical toll of the season had caught up with him but thats just speculation.

Well ECG only detects electrical activity of the heart, it doesn't show actual cardiac output or potential valve leakage etc which is often associated with heart problems.

Any way I agree with MrsP i don't think what simon had could have been detected by the ulster back room staff.

I thought ECG did show valve leakage? Sorry excuse my ignorance, I'm just a layman here.....

You are excused Rodders!

No ECG shows the electrical activity and so will flag up some problems which will lead to abnormal rhythms. Echo shows structure (and mechanical function) which can be associated with other problems incuding some rhythm disturbances but there are many problems in which both of those tests will be normal and yet difficulties can still arise!

Anyway,

Wasn't it the Ireland guys who missed Trimble's fractured thumb?

Right we're all agreed then!

What idiot brought this up anyways!......

Leaky valves can be detected using a stethoscope, often a distinct sloshing sound is heard. Well you hear that in horses, but their hearts are quite big in comparison to ours.

MrsP you seem to be in the Human medical profession so please correct me if I am
Confusing things.

Anyway let's get back to why fallow isnt preforming well enough!

Well you can detect leaky valves with a stethoscope in humans too but some leaks are small and some are not there all the time so you can listen and there are no murmurs and yet the Mitral valve can prolapse and/or leak at other times.

To investigate further you will probably have to be directed by symptoms. If there are no symptoms reported you won't know to go searching.

You certainly are not going to do EP studies on every professional sportsman or you would possibly harm more than you help.

Now we're on the topic...I get the odd palpitation from time to time.... am I going to kick the bucket the next time I go for a run?

Do you get more when you run?

Or more when you watch Ulster?

Definitely watching Ulster Mrs P!

As a very very general rule of thumb, palpitations which get better with exercise are not worrisome.

If you are concerned get checked out though.

OK thanks Mrs P! .....if I suddenly disappear of here then you know whats happened.....

Right now I've figured out I probably will be around for the match what do we think?

Edinburgh will get mullered up front, but if can build phases through that backrow, might cause Ulster some problems.

Ulster by 10 no BP.

Ulster by 15-20 with the BP. Im looking at it like the dragons game.

Ulster by 12- bonus point? Depends on our backrow.

Just got to chat to Muller/Pienaar there - legends the both of them! Muller says he is more than fit but he is just taking it easy in preparation for the game against Munster. They sound very fired up! Honestly I am more excited for that game than any of these 6 nations matches.