wales are only great team when they win against australia, south africa,allblacks.

Wales in my view good upcoming team but they need to beat Australia,south Africa,and new Zealand home and away. welsh people think they lose to south Africa, France, Australia twice then beat Ireland, Scotland and England there the worlds best.
when they play southern hemisphere sides, they lost game before they walk out on pitch there mentality needs to change.

Correct.

People say there are Kiwis on here pretending to be English. Are you also pretending to be English?

I think many Welsh people would agree with these sentiments. But one thing at a time. If their goals are to first win the 6N, that hasn´t been achieved yet. If they win that, then they can reassess their goals and that should include in the long term beating the top 3 ranked sides. Any side is a great side that can beat all those 3 sides.

im english and proud

Don't all sides need to do that ?

that why australia and new zealand are great sides and south africa(2007) and england(2003) were.

I think Biltong might have something to say about that. In fact I know he will as even I believe SA is a great side and not was a great side. They´ve done away with their Puff Divvy so good luck to England with 3 matches against them. Indeed watch out the other 4N teams.

France have a habit of keeping their best for NZ. They tend to struggle against France and SA. Australia have slipped up against a few sides from up north. Nobody´s super great at the moment but certainly the big three of the south tend to have the best records against all the top teams.

But don't England need to beat these sides again if they want to be considered great or is doing it years ago considered enough.?
It obvious to everybody that sides needs to beat good teams on a regular basis to be considered great,
Australia New Zealand and South Africa are consistently good sides where as the rest of us move up and down the rankings.

southern hemisphere teams know only england and france will ever compete with them cause all the rest cant handle pressure.

Well it's hard to disagree with that but the NH teams are at a slight disadvantage until it comes to WC time.

The summer tours are a chance to develop, so in general no NH teams take full sides down, and whereas the AI's are at the begginning of our season (ish) they are just post the Tri season so where the Tri teams are fully fit and firing mostly we are just getting into our grove.

Not that thats any excuse, but until someone gets to play the SH teams 3 times a year in a competitive setting they will always be playing 2nd fiddle.

You just see how the Argies come on now.

Wales seemed to handle the pressure of losing a man against Ireland and England pretty well. France hasn't beaten Australia and SA in a while. England for quite some time has only managed to beat Australia so I´m not sure about your theory there.

In a RWC England and France have by far the best records among the NH teams but that doesn't mean that will always be the case.

And the award for most sweeping and dull statement goes to...

Adambarney!

If you go back and look at Irelands record over Aus and SA it wouldn't be too bad, much better than Englands over the last 5 years or so.

adambarney wrote:southern hemisphere teams know only england and france will ever compete with them cause all the rest cant handle pressure.

Pitty you had to resort to wumming this could have been a good debate.

to be great side win a world cup simple.

That´s a very narrow definition of greatness as you don't need to beat all or many of the top sides to win the RWC. England was a great side because the sides they beat in 2002 and 2003.

adambarney - from your article.

"welsh people think they lose to south Africa, France, Australia twice then beat Ireland, Scotland and England there the worlds best."

I'm English, but I have not heard this claimed by any Welsh people I know (quite a few). And I would never be swayed by the one eyed opinion of a handful of keyboard warriors.

Apart from the fairly recent wins over Australia, England's record against the SH teams has hardly been what I would call 'handling the pressure'. Granted, England are not frightened of the SH teams, but the facts are that away wins in Aus, SA and NZ are rare events.

I know this thread is a wum but actually it does pose an interesting question.

Fact, this is the best Welsh side I have seen (i do have memories of watching games in the 70's though can't seriously compare) though those with longer and more accurate memories than mine may provide better comparision.

So my thoughts are that now is the time for this side to take the opportunity to become a truly world beating team. If they do it, well only time will tell but the reality is that the door is open to them and they must have the courage to walk through it.

adambarney wrote:to be great side win a world cup simple.

Does this mean because Wales finished 4th and England were, what 5=, we are a greatER side? Nice

adambarney wrote:Wales in my view good upcoming team but they need to beat Australia,south Africa,and new Zealand home and away. welsh people think they lose to south Africa, France, Australia twice then beat Ireland, Scotland and England there the worlds best.
when they play southern hemisphere sides, they lost game before they walk out on pitch there mentality needs to change.

What a stupid thing to say

Don't let facts get in the way of a poor WUM.

Poor WUM, I'm glad the England rugby supporters have stepped in to point out how ridiculous this is before anyone Welsh had the chance to say. Six Nations is top priority at the moment.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Well it's hard to disagree with that but the NH teams are at a slight disadvantage until it comes to WC time.

The summer tours are a chance to develop, so in general no NH teams take full sides down, and whereas the AI's are at the begginning of our season (ish) they are just post the Tri season so where the Tri teams are fully fit and firing mostly we are just getting into our grove.

Not that thats any excuse, but until someone gets to play the SH teams 3 times a year in a competitive setting they will always be playing 2nd fiddle.

You just see how the Argies come on now.

Bluesman, mate by the time we get to the NH in november our guys have played non stop rugby for 10 months.
I assume Jne is your end of season?
Between us we still win 75% plus of our matches.

thebluesmancometh wrote:And the award for most sweeping and dull statement goes to...

Adambarney!

If you go back and look at Irelands record over Aus and SA it wouldn't be too bad, much better than Englands over the last 5 years or so.

He also gets second place for thinking SA aren't a top side anymore

Fact is until we start winning against the big three we arent a great team. It may be a wum but he is right we need to win the series in oz this year and get a ouple of scalps in the Autumn then it will have been a great year.

TycroesOsprey wrote:Fact is until we start winning against the big three we arent a great team. It may be a wum but he is right we need to win the series in oz this year and get a ouple of scalps in the Autumn then it will have been a great year.

That is right, but I haven't heard any welsh people say Wales are great.

I've heard plenty of English people going on about England being great though.

biltongbek wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:And the award for most sweeping and dull statement goes to...

Adambarney!

If you go back and look at Irelands record over Aus and SA it wouldn't be too bad, much better than Englands over the last 5 years or so.

He also gets second place for thinking SA aren't a top side anymore

You took your time to make that post mate!

Hi ya Tycoes...yes the Oz series will be huge. From what I can tell Ire, Wales and Eng are playing 3 test series against SA, Oz and NZ? I havnt checked yet...

If so the SH 3 will be competing against each other in the same way as they get compared during the AI's. NZ especially take their record against NH teams very seriously.

Deans I feel will adopt the NZ approach to this series and won't want to be the SH team to drop the ball so to speak, yet of the 3 he is probably the most likely to based on recent results. he has made it clear the Bledisloe cup is the main goal this year as if they win that the rest will 'probably come with it'.

Likewise Gatland will see it as his chance to go head to head with his likely opposition in years to come for the AB position...

Interesting days ahead. This makes this year particularly exciting.

then throw in the Argies amongst the pigeons...

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:And the award for most sweeping and dull statement goes to...

Adambarney!

If you go back and look at Irelands record over Aus and SA it wouldn't be too bad, much better than Englands over the last 5 years or so.

He also gets second place for thinking SA aren't a top side anymore

You took your time to make that post mate!

My therapist said I must count to a thousand before I make any retort in response to a derogatory comment of my team. I got to 356.

The original post gave me a good laugh, and I like the way the OP's definition of greatness shifts throughout the thread! Although the first few words of the original thread were correct it would be a bit like a Welsh supporter proferring advice to an England supporter in the early 90s on what they need to do to match Wales' feats of the 70s (after Wales have just lost to England)!

But there is a message in there about beating SH teams which is undeniably true. I do think we can crack this - we've beaten Australia a couple of times in fairly recent past with some other close games and have also run SA very close in a number of games in the last couple of years. I would be disappointed if we don't start winning some of those games in the next year or two, and a 3 test tour against Aus is a great way to start. The real monkey we need to get off our back is obviously NZ. Given the history, I wouldn't underestimate what a win against the All Blacks would do for our confidence before the next World Cup.

Having said all that, I don't think many Welsh fans are getting ahead of ourselves by any means. We're in a good position in the 6 nations, but could easily be having a bit of a shocker had the last 5 minutes against Ireland and England worked out differently. I certainly think we'll be underdogs against France - oh hang on, it's that bloody Welsh losing mentality rearing its head again!

Cadair Idris wrote:The original post gave me a good laugh, and I like the way the OP's definition of greatness shifts throughout the thread! Although the first few words of the original thread were correct it would be a bit like a Welsh supporter proferring advice to an England supporter in the early 90s on what they need to do to match Wales' feats of the 70s (after Wales have just lost to England)!

But there is a message in there about beating SH teams which is undeniably true. I do think we can crack this - we've beaten Australia a couple of times in fairly recent past with some other close games and have also run SA very close in a number of games in the last couple of years. I would be disappointed if we don't start winning some of those games in the next year or two, and a 3 test tour against Aus is a great way to start. The real monkey we need to get off our back is obviously NZ. Given the history, I wouldn't underestimate what a win against the All Blacks would do for our confidence before the next World Cup.

Having said all that, I don't think many Welsh fans are getting ahead of ourselves by any means. We're in a good position in the 6 nations, but could easily be having a bit of a shocker had the last 5 minutes against Ireland and England worked out differently. I certainly think we'll be underdogs against France - oh hang on, it's that bloody Welsh losing mentality rearing its head again!

Taylorman wrote:Hi ya Tycoes...yes the Oz series will be huge. From what I can tell Ire, Wales and Eng are playing 3 test series against SA, Oz and NZ? I havnt checked yet...

If so the SH 3 will be competing against each other in the same way as they get compared during the AI's. NZ especially take their record against NH teams very seriously.

Deans I feel will adopt the NZ approach to this series and won't want to be the SH team to drop the ball so to speak, yet of the 3 he is probably the most likely to based on recent results. he has made it clear the Bledisloe cup is the main goal this year as if they win that the rest will 'probably come with it'.

Likewise Gatland will see it as his chance to go head to head with his likely opposition in years to come for the AB position...

Interesting days ahead. This makes this year particularly exciting.

then throw in the Argies amongst the pigeons...

Yeah Im quite excited about this summers tours, and Im on holiday at the time as well so I will be getting fat and drunk on a couch watching rugby. Personally dont think England stand a hope of winning out there just yet but it will be interesting to see how Hansen goes. INteresting to see if Lancaster is still England coach. I think Ireland have the pack to take on the boks if they can keep their first choice front row fit. Im not sure if BOD is back or not but with Earls i midfield they looked a lot better on saturday and Kearney is in awesome form. I think people were a bit harsh on kidney after we stole a win in Dublin so I wouldnt write off their chances against the Boks.

But yeah the tour of Australia is the big thing for me this year, Basically we are two nil down in a five match series at the moment and I want at least a series win ending the season 3-2 down but getting a win in Aus would be a great result for us. Watching Warbs and Pocock go head to head is going to make my June.

Oh...I knew i got my order wrong...its ire vs ABs and Eng vs Boks. Irelands goal should be to come away with the win they have been trying to get since they started.

Good chance they could do it too.

Forward depth was and still is Deans problem so he's once again relying on being injury free- managed it at the money end of the 3N last year but then the wheels fell off in the WCup with players going down badly.

Gatts will know that and will look to be very physical from the start and will keeping an eye on key players form during the sxv.

If Ireland get a win in NZ that would be a good result. The Boks will despatch England with ease I think.

I think Oz are vulnerable in defence as well espescially to our new size of backline but with scrums the way they are no its not so much of a disadvantage for them. Thing is all they have been analysing as a team for the last couple of games is how to beat Wales now give them a six nations video and Dingo will have a clear plan on how to break welsh hearts. Im hoping Gatlands got somthing up his sleeve.

whilst a lot of what the op states is pretty much just gash, the bit about beating the sh teams is true, as everyone so far's agreed.

I think the goal in Oz needs to be 2 wins. That'd be a great result to take away the series win. Way easier said than done and I don't think we will until we tighten up our line out and Priestland/Halfpenny vary their tactical kicking when sending roberts/north down route one isn't working. We still don't run any decent decoys either, with all of the backs able to carry ball dangerously you'd think this would be natural for them, it'd suck in every man in the line aswell as soon as 1 or 2 line breaks wee made through the backs. Forwards need to take more responsibility on slow ball too because putting Priestland under unnecessary pressure isn't helping. Still, I'm very upbeat about it, we've managed to start turning the close losses and good performances into wins, the win at Twickenham said a lot about this sides maturity and drive. Going to Oz is going to be a step up again from the 6nations and it'll be interesting to see what type of side Gatland takes.

Of course Oz, SA and NZ are the big targets (as they are for everyone else too!!) being the the pacesetters in the world game. No NH teams record is good enough against them so i don't see how anyone could try to take the high ground on that!

In the 6Ns Wales could be played 3 lost two very easily so a bit of perspective please!
On the evidence so far there is little to chose between Ireland,France,Wales or England.......

Quite right to focus on the current competition.

Bigtrev, of course, as Ireland could be 2 from 2, and Scotland could be 2 from 3.

In the 6nations theres not usually much difference between 1st and 4th unless someone wins the slam. Usually a high scoring game against Italy decides the winner....

Still, the records read Wales have won the triple crown so far, including 2 tough games they would have lost a year ago if we're being honest.

But the wins are enough to give us welsh a cautious grin...

Wales in my view good upcoming team but they need to beat Australia,south Africa,and new Zealand home and away. welsh people think they lose to south Africa, France, Australia twice then beat Ireland, Scotland and England there the worlds best.
when they play southern hemisphere sides, they lost game before they walk out on pitch there mentality needs to change..

-----------

Judging by the grammar in this article Wales' mentality is not the only thing that needs to change!

What a long winded way to say the best team is the team that beats everyone else and a great team is one that beats them well.

Clearly NZ is the best team but not a great team right now.

Wales are just doing alright.

And that rubbish from Bluesman about the advantage to SH teams is just that. That debate has been gone over again and again.

What a ridiculous post. Has AdamBarmey got a chip on both shoulders?

Wales haven't had a great team for about 40 years when comparisons to today make little sense. England had one great team 10 years ago. Australia had great teams at the start and end of the 90's. SA and NZ have had several great teams and the current ABs are clearly the best right now and might become great.

Yeah its too early to tell if Wales are currently a great team. If they win the GS the job will be perhaps 1/4 done. If they could beat Aus in all three tests this summer that would be epic! If they won most of their autumn tests and then got another GS or won 6N next year, then I'd officially say they are a great team.

However, its my personal belief that Australia are on the rise just now. I don't think they were close to the finished product at the world cup and next couple of years they'll be hard to beat. Expecting another tri nations win (whats it called now that Argentina are in it?)

Good Luck Wales though

How does one define greatness. What is a great team.

you can argue that a great team is one that has dominated rugby for a calendar year. Or you could argue a great team dominated world rugby for a sustainable period of time.

Then the question is how long is a piece of rope. Well it depends what you are going to use it for.

So greatness is a team that will stand out in history and of them there are few, and we don't see them often.

If you look at the springboks in 2009, they won against the Lions and then won the Tri Nations, but then lost in the AI's with a number of their stars resting.

Hence that wasn't a great team.

When we talk team are we just looking at the collective and say the Springboks were great, or do we have to define a great team as a specific combination of players?

With modern day rugby it is seldom that the best 15 play consistently together, due to injuries, rotation, and the obsession with many coaches who "build" for a future tournament.

Great ness is not winning a few test or tournaments, greatness is dominating world rugby for a sustained period of time with a specific group of players.

Aside from a few excited Welsh fans (and why not Wales are playing good rugby) i cant see any Welsh people claiming that Wales are the best team in the world. I would have then slightly over France as the best NH team right now though.

Wales do have a team that can beat the SH teams though and i believe that they will give the Aussies a run for their money.

Absolutely billy, on their day...

hopefully, their day... will be more frequent now with their current squad.

Lets not use the 'on their day' term biltong, that will get us in trouble

bsando wrote:Yeah its too early to tell if Wales are currently a great team.

Not really. Currently, Wales are not a great team.

biltongbek wrote:hopefully, their day... will be more frequent now with their current squad.

Beating the all blacks couldnt be any less frequent....




Shouldnt this article be retitled "Heres something we all already knew and agreed on"

The side is doing very well for a Welsh one in the pro era. Get the grandslam, yawn been there done that. Beat a SANZAR side away from home, that would be huge given performances off the 6 nations sides down there in recent years, especially welsh ones.
Getting to a state where they can regulalry compete and beat the SANZARs, well that would be an immense step forward, no countries side has done that since 2003. Actualy become dominant and grandlsam them in a year, well I think the entire rugby planet would sh1t the bed if that happened.
Even then theyd only have acheived what New Zealand sides do more often than not. It was enough ( along witha WC win) to get England labelled as great.

Noones claiming they are a great side, just a good one by NH standards and arguably the best Wales have had for many years. I dont think anyone realisticaly expects that theyll sudenly go and nil Aus down south then slam the AIs do they? I mean anyone whos followed rugby?

Its not an insult to them or an attempt to pull them down, they have a chance of proving theyare the best in Europe and taking 3rd/4th spot in the IRB rankings for a top seed draw in the WC. Id say they have their best chanc eof getting a scalp on a SANZAR tour in years. Thats a huge step forward and something all NH sides struggle to do.

England are a great team because they won a RWC,France arn`t because they have been in 3 finals and lost all of them.?The fact is ALL teams run in cycles even the best.Is the RWC a benchmark when a poor TMO or refs decision or injuries to key playersaffect the result.
A lot of wannabees poked fun at the AllBlacks for being 24 years between RWC
wins.BUT since 1987 they had a consistent 81% win loss record till 2011,with glitches 1998 and 2009.
Were they not a great side?THE Great side,England under Wavell-Wakefield,Cooke,Rowell, SCW enjoyed success.BUT a lot of lost games too.
Given they have the biggest player base,and THE most resources of ANY side.

Should`nt they be ashamed of 8 years in the wilderness?I`m an Anglo-Scot and
proud of it.It took SCW 7 years to build his team,and his win record was inferior to both Robinso and Ashton`s at the point of there dismissal.
All teams can be great BUT play each game as it comes don`t dwell on the past
history is great.I quote it often but it is just a guideline.
What if ALL the NH teams did oldstyle tours 28 matches 4 tests included THEN you would see the difference.
As an Englishman I don`t want the RWC trotted out like 1966 Soccer one,one out of 3 isn`t that special either.

emack2 wrote:England are a great team because they won a RWC,France arn`t because they have been in 3 finals and lost all of them.?What if ALL the NH teams did oldstyle tours 28 matches 4 tests included THEN you would see the difference.
As an Englishman I don`t want the RWC trotted out like 1966 Soccer one,one out of 3 isn`t that special either.

I dont think anyones claiming England are a great tema now, but the 2001-2003 side is often cited as one.
The difference between that side and the other England world cup finals teams and the French ones is that not only did they actually win the thing but they also beat everyone in the run up to it.
Obviously SANZAR do that on a fairly regular basis, but we ignore that and set the bar of greatness higher for them. Its only fair.

adambarney wrote:southern hemisphere teams know only england and france will ever compete with them cause all the rest cant handle pressure.

Is that what Australia thought when Ireland beat them at the world cup? Doubt SA underestimate Ireland given Ireland have beaten them a few times lately. Scotland has beaten both SA and Oz not too long ago. France are great against NZ but were recently pummelled at home by Oz. Probably of all teams in the 6N Wales have performed the worst against or at least has the worst record v SH teams.

adambarney wrote: welsh people think they lose to south Africa, France, Australia twice then beat Ireland, Scotland and England there the worlds best.

Yes we ALL think that. Every one of us.