Wales.

First topic message reminder :

The six Nations have now completed 3 rounds of matches and I thought it might be interesting if I gave a neutral’s perspective from what I have seen so far and my opinion on each of the teams.

Wales.

They are clearly the better team currently in the Six Nations, they have won their away matches vs England and Ireland, and also beat Scotland at home. You may want to argue some of those matches the decisions went their way, but you can’t argue that continuously if they keep on winning.
They have a solid tight five and a decent back row, the back row does play on the edge of the law, but to be honest as long as the laws are what they are and they can “read” the referee interpretations better than the opposition you can’t blame them, you should lay the blame at the feet of the IRB.

Without any doubt Cuthbert has brought an extra dimension to their back play, where you won’t just have Roberts and North coming at your defensive line with pace and power, but you also have Cuthbert who unlike Shane Williams can bash it up amongst the best of the strike runners out there. Add to that Halfpenny and Davies who both are extremely agile players and you have to start comparing their back line with that of Australia.

Areas they can improve on are firstly the line out, no team will be able to dominate the attack in the opponent half if they cannot use their lineout as a reliable attacking weapon. You may find that Wales will throw ball to the front of the line out as the long ball becomes too risky, hence they rarely get quick ball from the back of the line out which is your best attacking play from a line out. They will employ mauls or get the ball to Phillips as soon as possible.

Priestland hasn’t impressed me a whole lot. His tactical kicking is error ridden and his goal kicking not very consistent either. He does get his back line away, but then again how much of that is due to the pure class in the Welsh back line?

Phillips has a tendency to make wrong decisions and a couple of times during the Six Nations he would take a quick tap in a favourable position on the pitch, where it might have been prudent to kick at goal. Although he is rather dangerous around the fringe, he can also be quite slow at getting ball to the back line.

One thing Wales have not yet been able to do in the six Nations is to dominate matches, hence my suggestion that they should rather take the points on offer, even if momentum is going their way.

I have a firm belief that you first control the match and scoreboard and then you can take quick taps etc.

I am not one for hyping a team up or even thinking about the future of how great they could become, that is purely conjecture and based on subjective debate.

Forget about how great they could become, accept the fact that there are some issues that can still improve and that so far they have shown to be top of the pile in the six Nations.

Glas a du wrote:Ireland play in green.

...and I think we can safely write them off....

That's his lot he's lost the plot -

Thanks for you reasoned and well written WUM-free response...

You could say that referees are perhaps giving Wales the benefit of the doubt, but ask yourself why this may be? Im not suggesting this is the actual case, to be clear, but rather than lower your argument (which does and can contain strong points) to ifs/buts? Perhaps referees are giving them the benefit of the doubt as they have become a team that plays in a postive way, using the ball rather than getting rid of it, they are renowned to have a very good (and still improving) backrow and front row. Also, they actually listen to what the referee tells them during the game, this is always going to put them in the ref's goodbooks. The more experienced players have an ability to talk to the referees well, and dont over-do it, Warbs seems to have a very good rapour with many of the referees at international level, and any of those that saw/heard his reaction to his red card at the world cup will only have respect for him.

I like to think the referees too are experienced and unlikely to to become partial in the way you suggest. Certainly if they are malleable and can be smooth talked into giving decisions preferentially then the game has a big problem to look at. I prefer to see it another way: There will be bad calls from time to time, luck would have it for Wales that they've just been on the positive side of those calls. Like everything, luck can't go on forever. I agree Robshaw showed his inexperience by not getting in the referees ear more, perhaps reminding him that England were playing under the advantage or questioning whether North had committed a professional foul. In my opinion, referees have a tendency (which I am sure is subconscious and involuntary) to try to "even up" bad calls. I'm convinced that this was what Barnes was doing when he carded Ferris. I think he was wary of being seen to influence the result again and made a mistake.

Wales have been competent, but you need more than competence and lucky calls to consistently live in the top 4. I'm just suggesting that perhaps a little much credit is being given, a few too many extrapolations of greatness, and little bit too little attention is being paid to the deficits in the game, having been masked by what ultimately were wins born on riding of luck.

North vs Ireland? Priestlands offload around the back for JD2s try? Those are just the 1st 2 instances from this 6nations alone that pop into my head.....

I saw North's build up work as what you'd expect from a bulky ball carrier. He fended and then put in a good pass. It was executed well, but as I say, this is just bash and dash. There wasn't a lot of guile going on there. By comparison look at the stuff that Ioane, Genia or Beale come up with or that insane try against South Africa that Israel Dagg scored a couple of seasons back, or his work to set up Nonu for the semi-final's opening try against Australia. Just individual brilliance out of nowhere. North is in the mould of Sonny Bill Williams, without the big hands. Impressive, but his game is all around power.

Priestlands a young player, and had his worst game for Wales in a pressured enviroment in a must-win game at a place Wales have won once in 24 years. Yet, Wales won the game with Gatland sticking by Priestland the whole game for him to learn what that pressure means and how to cope with it. He'll be better off for the experience, I've yet to see anyone claim him the next Dan Carter, he's a young player learning the role and he fits in well with what Wales do.

I rate Priestland, I really do, as I've said many times on this forum. But England showed that if a suitable amount of pressure is put on the breakdown and distribution channels, then he will flummox under pressure. He may learn some composure sure. But from my observation players have a natural level of awareness and reaction time that isn't something that can be trained. You see a Dan Carter or a Larkham, Genia or a Mark Ella who you can't train that, it's part of some kind of biological construction that allows it to happen. I have a professional friend in that very field who asserts that like an innate ability to problem solve, the awareness/reaction/response time is hardwired and can't be changed dramatically. I think there are better back rows in the world that will exert more pressure. Will he cope? He has played very little, and was notably missing at the business part of the rugby world cup. Perhaps he got a little over-hyped a little quickly? Just possibly?

Mitey

Your last two statements arent too far wrong, Norths game is built around power, but acceleration and agility factor with an unusually high level of skill combine to make him that little more than most.

And Preistland was hyped a little too much in my opinion, he isn't the best 10 in Wales, but for me in re structuring post WC he is our best option going forward.

RE the ref's mate, I think your wrong, differing refs in differing situations can't all be biased, in general I agree with a few of your points about poor decisions, Norths smack out can be carded in certain games, but then so can Fodens slap of Rennies pass V Scotland, and Strettles try may have been given, yet so could have Scotlands V England in the 80th minute. I find it strange your just focusing on Wales luck rather than look at how Englands has evened out. Why do you constantly bring poor refereeing decisions into it when you clearly ignore the lucky ones youve had in other games. Even the Argies were robbed in the world cup, when that tackle on Jonny was given as a pen and yellow despite it being textbook.

absolutely agree with the gist of what you're saying, wales (and some individuals within that team) are being over-hyped. Its very similar to England 2010, the close losses they'd accumulated became wins, and then with some confidence behind them beat Australia home and away and won the 6nations. So far, Wales have won the games they were expected to (Ireland away perhaps not expected too) and lost the games (Aus twice) they were expected too. Not disimilar from that England side in where they were at that point.

I'd rate them as a good side with potential to improve. But we've been there before with Wales (2005/2008) and slunk back into the abyss of 4th in the 6ns. There just seems to be some steel about this welsh side that there wasnt previously. I honestly think this side would have lost the Ireland/England games a year ago, the fact they didnt has shown a massive improvement in self-belief, something we've always been lacking, this is yet to be seen against the tri-giants. Only the England side of 2003 had the ability and mentality to overcome the tri-giants, its asking a lot of this young welsh side to do so immediately.

Agree with you on refs, i think ref's do make certain calls with an element of making it evens if they've made a dodgy call earlier in that game. But I think the problem with reffing starts at the IRB and the directives it hands down. Theres certainly a lot more that can be done to makes a ref's lifes easier, but we should get off that before Billtong shows up with his little kangaroo Bryce toy.

I think we often get a big fast lump on the wing, but perhaps not one with the footwork and subtle hands of north. He's had more caps at test-level than regional, and that says it all about what we think hes capable of here in wales. Hes certainly shown flashes of all the gamebreaking abilities you need at test-level, and for his age, he seems to be coming along excellantly. Not the finished article, and I'd suggest slightly more than a big-bash wing at the moment, but differing opinions are what rugbys always been about. He works very well with JD2, who is really the rapier in midfield for wales, it just so happens hes a rapier that can bump off the best of tacklers too if needs be. And to be fair, the only person I've heard talk this welsh backline up to match the class of NZ/Aus is John Kirwan, which was random to be fair.

Id describe Priestland as a young stephen jones, just with better tactical kicking. Nowhere near the finished article, and the tri-giants defences will definitely ask pertinent questions of him. His defence isnt as good as we'd liked to have thought at test level, although he wont be the last 10 to be bumped off by Tuilagi! But like most of this welsh backline, hes young, and he'll need to learn tough lessons at the top level to better himself as a player. Whether he can be the welsh dan carter is yet to be seen, and there certainly was over-hyping at the world cup, more because of the deficiencies in Jones/Hooks' games to be fair. Also, I think people havent really appreciated the work Roberts has done for Priestland in the 12 channel, he really is a workhorse for his 10.

Id say a lot of the examples of players you've used are certainly some of the best in the world, the fact that we're now using those players as a yardstick for these young welsh players is a massive positive in my eyes.

A few years ago we had gareth cooper, jonathan thomas and andy powell as near certain starters whilst still losing playing a boring gameplan, you'll have to forgive us for getting a bit carried away with our new breed and a few decent wins

miteyironpaw wrote:How different would it have been if Hogg's try had been rightfully awarded and Scotland had drawn with Wales?

Wales' margin of victory was 14 points against Scotland. I know the Scots had been struggling to score tries up until that point, but to award them 7 bonus points for scoring twice in one game would have been a bit much.