England.

The six Nations have now completed 3 rounds of matches and I thought it might be interesting if I gave a neutral’s perspective from what I have seen so far and my opinion on each of the teams.

England.

Since they won the six Nations in 2011, England has not delivered on their promise of getting back to the heights of 2003. Although England has not lost many test matches during the six Nations of last year, they have looked encumbered and slow in the pack and totally disconnected in the backs.

It isn’t that they don’t have the players, they just don’t seem to be connecting at all. It is a given that England will always have a strong pack of forwards and will be able to compete at the tight phases and even at the break downs, but the system they have in place to secure the ruck, then make sure they covered every potential whole in securing the ball and then checking again reminds me of a television show Monk, where the guy has a back toothbrush for his back up tooth brush and then back bristles for his back bristles and that is for one night away.

There is no way you can put a team under pressure on defence when they have over a minute to organise their defences. Foden, Ashton, Barrit, Tuilagi and the rest of the players are looking average by large, simply because quick ball is a rumour.

There isn’t really more to say about their attacking ability until they can sort that out.

Defensively England is well organised and you have to commend their discipline under pressure especially in their own half. I have been waiting for England to show something more than just making runs and completing passes for the sake of it.

Hopefully they will stick with Farrell at 10 and give him an extended run, the Barritt , Tuilagi combination in my opinion can work as well, but they need to have some continuity in selection for that partnership to come to fruition.

Overall England looks exactly like SA did for the last two years, admittedly they kick less than us, but they seem to be in slow motion most of the time.

Sensible balanced comments on both England and Wales Biltong.

Youngs and Flood were back on it yesterday, albeit behind an utterly dominant pack. In the past they have shown they can do more to get Englands attack going than Farrell and Dickson will ever be able to.
I fully support Lancasters decision to stick by his side even though it lost, but dont get carried away marking up Farrell as the long term starter for 10 mastermind of England.
Barrit Tuilagi is absoultely the center partnership to stick by.

Theres still an issue with the pack and a lack of agressiveness when securing or trying to steal ball. I cant remeber the last time I saw the sort of intensity Irelands pack had for the first 40 minutes against France and entire game against England last year form an England pack.

To be fair..its a very inexperienced squad...and whilst they havent set the world alight offensively yet..they have won in Scotland, won in Italy and only just lost to a much vaunted Welsh side.

Im quietly satisfied...and hope we can put the same pressure on Ireland and France and we might get another win.

That would be more than i expected at the beginning of the competition...

Im actualy quite content with the two wins we have , as long as we play good rugby and dot get walked over the next two games id go as far as saying this years been a bit of a success.

Blooded New Talent , got rid of the ageing old guard and brought back some pride in the jersey.

biltongbek wrote:
I have been waiting for England to show something more than just making runs and completing passes for the sake of it.

Exactly Biltong. Great point and this goes to the heart of it.

In my mind as I've said before, backline play is simple (in principal). Commit a defender and then pass the ball to a guy in better position. Then repeat. You will always have a one man overlap or a giant space to kick in to. If you actually beat a man one of one, that's a bonus. Execution of it = the hard bit.

Currently England's attacking players are not committing anyone, and not offloading. Much has been made of England's style at the tackle ball area, but I think maybe a little too much. We're not doing anything terribly differently to the rest of the 6N teams - although I do agree we are not nearly aggressive enough. In attack we're either pointlessly shovelling the ball to the next guy in the line until we run out of field and either kick or get tackled into touch, or we've got guys like Tuilagi, or a back row forward charging into the line trying to get to the gain line on their own. The team beyond the front 5 are not playing as a team, there is no coordination and no support.

Scoring tries just for the sake of it would be nice.

Geordie, Enginauk

Surprisingly very honest and refreshing there, don't see that much on these boards!! Lancaster said the very same thing before the tourny, that 3 wins would be very succesfull, but I think they have done very well winning in Murrayfeild, and Italy.

I expect a solid England defence in the next 2 rounds, but a stuttering attack as there is too much breakdown nous from Ireland or France, but give Lancaster 12 months and next year they may be contenders.

With two wins out of three the current status does not look bad but how will supporters feel if England lose the next two games? I think Lancaster has to be supported whatever happens in the next two games as he has sorted the defence out and there were signs of improvement in attack against Wales. Farrell played very well but he will have bad games like Preistland had against England, it is the nature of being a flyhalf being willing to take risks trying to breakdown teams. All credit to England they kept a useful Wales back line at bay.

I'm quietly pleased with England so far - two dogged victories away from home and a strong performanace against one of the really strong sides in the tournament is a decent return so far.

However, I feel that England lack momentum, which is such a big word in rugby. They've got some real bish-bosh centres (and No. 8) but it's single phase stuff and they need better support play and the intention/ability to offload to really make it count. They also need to mix up the attack more - predicatable attack is easily defended. I hope this will come with experience.

They're not a long way off being a decent side, but I think it'll be a while before that new dawn arrives.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Scoring tries just for the sake of it would be nice.

As a few people have stated repeatedly, we seem to really struggle with quick ball from breakdowns, when we do get this we look threatening but it is too rare and there is never enough support.

I'm really not sure that Lancaster is the man for the job, but even more worryingly I don't think there are any suitable options to him who have applied for the role.

I wish we'd got ourselves a top headhunting firm in the city with a lot of knowledge in scouting out the best talent globally in many non rugby related careers, surely if we had then we'd have more then 3 applicants?

Great call Yappy.

I'm in an honest mood so here goes....

Aside from our penchant for sealing off our own ruck ball and playing it ridiculously slowly rather than clearing past the ball as highlighted by Mr Henry,

the most shocking failing i have seen now for years and years in England sides is the frankly pathetic....

passing abilities of our players!!!!

The number of times you will see the ball passed into touch by England players is beyond appalling. A lot of the time too you see players not passing the ball when they should and i suspect that is not just an obsession with taking contact BUT also lack of confidence in their own ability to execute the pass under pressure.

It is unforgiveable.

All EQ Players at all age groups need to be given their own rugby ball and ordered to familarise themselves with it. They need to find a mate and throw a thousand passes a day minimum.

also it has been said on here already i believe but it does bear repeating....


the much vaunted Mike Brown butchered our try (not given) against Wales by completely and utterly failing to draw or even half draw/ hold the cover defence before he shipped the ball on to Strettle.

I learned to draw and pass when i was 8.

It is fecking easy!

Triangulation wrote:also it has been said on here already i believe but it does bear repeating....


the much vaunted Mike Brown butchered our try (not given) against Wales by completely and utterly failing to draw or even half draw/ hold the cover defence before he shipped the ball on to Strettle.

I learned to draw and pass when i was 8.

It is fecking easy!

Yeah, I tend to only pass on a bad hand when playing bridge.

laugh it up biltongbek laugh it up

i am furious.

I would ask all of the AP club coaches for a written explanation of what they're doing to improve passing standards in the AP.

Triangulation wrote:laugh it up biltongbek laugh it up

i am furious.

I would ask all of the AP club coaches for a written explanation of what they're doing to improve passing standards in the AP.

I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, mate.

Triangulation

Bang on mate, I posted a couple of times on here that Strettle had plenty to do for the try because Davies and 1/2p drifted past Brown like he wasn't a threat, and in reality he wasn't, his body language was awfull and if nobody had been in front of him he still would've passed the ball!!

Triangulation, you are spot on in my opinion..

I've been bemoaning basic skills for some time. Our passing is just sloppy and poor timed. No attacking player is committing players in the defensive line. It's allowing the defense line to just drift and push us into touch, or to rush at the obviously intended ball carrier. It's feckless to be honest.

Guys should be running at the gaps in the line on the side of known wrong shoulder of their opposite until he is committed and then passing into space for the supporting runner to hit at pace. And repeat. If you don't have the skills to do it at the line, then copy Scotland last week and form up a bit deeper.

Ireland did this brilliantly in the first half against France. Wales have done it sporadically and France do it when they get sick of messing around and want to score a try.

We then need guys providing options on angles, Foden or Brown joining the line from deep running tangentially, or Ashton coming across from his wing and carrying it up, trying to pick the dog-legs in the rush umbrella, or finding mismatches where less able defenders have become paired. We also need to look at putting our ball carriers into big defensive targets to take them out of the game for the next phase. Repeatedly hitting the same defender from 20 minutes isn't a bad idea either. The highlanders did this last year in the S15 and it worked for a few weeks. You'd see one guy lauded after the game for having "great tackle stats". But if he didn't get subbed out of the game, with 15 minutes to go, more often than not they ran over him and scored.

If we're going to drive up the middle, then we need pods of fowards closely followed by support - not Lawes hitting the line alone and being turned over whilst everyone else scratches their arse and ponders their retirement.

As soon as we fail to break the line, we need to muscle up, commit more guys for a few phases to free fast ball again.

And FFS when Wales pull every big unit out of the breakdown and leave two guys crouching near the ball - we need our back row to charge through over the ball and turn it over, not stand there waving their arms in the air.

bluesmancometh

If i was Brown i would have dummied Strettle and gone over myself, much much closer to the sticks.

It's pitifull.

Why cant we pass?
Why cant we draw and pass?

WHY?

Y

miteyironpaw wrote:Triangulation, you are spot on in my opinion..

I've been bemoaning basic skills for some time. Our passing is just sloppy and poor timed. No attacking player is committing players in the defensive line. It's allowing the defense line to just drift and push us into touch, or to rush at the obviously intended ball carrier. It's feckless to be honest.

Guys should be running at the gaps in the line on the side of known wrong shoulder of their opposite until he is committed and then passing into space for the supporting runner to hit at pace. And repeat. If you don't have the skills to do it at the line, then copy Scotland last week and form up a bit deeper.

Ireland did this brilliantly in the first half against France. Wales have done it sporadically and France do it when they get sick of messing around and want to score a try.

We then need guys providing options on angles, Foden or Brown joining the line from deep running tangentially, or Ashton coming across from his wing and carrying it up, trying to pick the dog-legs in the rush umbrella, or finding mismatches where less able defenders have become paired. We also need to look at putting our ball carriers into big defensive targets to take them out of the game for the next phase. Repeatedly hitting the same defender from 20 minutes isn't a bad idea either. The highlanders did this last year in the S15 and it worked for a few weeks. You'd see one guy lauded after the game for having "great tackle stats". But if he didn't get subbed out of the game, with 15 minutes to go, more often than not they ran over him and scored.

If we're going to drive up the middle, then we need pods of fowards closely followed by support - not Lawes hitting the line alone and being turned over whilst everyone else scratches their arse and ponders their retirement.

As soon as we fail to break the line, we need to muscle up, commit more guys for a few phases to free fast ball again.

And FFS when Wales pull every big unit out of the breakdown and leave two guys crouching near the ball - we need our back row to charge through over the ball and turn it over, not stand there waving their arms in the air.

Correct sir!

What the French do better than anyone is to hold depth in their supporting positions until the last second. The support runner can thereby size up the defence which must commit one way...and then simply cut whatever angle does the most damage. Easily said, easily done...by the French......

You took the words out of my mouth mate, as it happened I was asking why Brown passed, 1/2p and Davies had just drifted past him, but that said North had Davies's inside shoulder covered so maybe Brown panic'd.

If it were a more confident scorign English backline I have no doubt they would have scored!!

Hang on boys, your talking depth but first half France held 25 yards at times and the Irish were up to meet them easily.

they got a lot flatter in the 2nd half and were much more devestating, well when I say flatter the odd player came flatter and the running lines came from deep.

I'm not sure also you can blame the English Back row, they generally tackled their nuts off to little avail, although it was Cole who did most of their good breakdown work.

remember Matt Dawson and Ben Kay RWC2003 Final vs Australia......

Dawson could have scored that himself but sort of drew no one and threw a slightly delayed pass to Kay. Kay still should have caught the ball and fallen over the line even with the undrawn Phil Waugh bearing closing but he dropped it and we had to suffer extra time.

I dont think Kay was even expecting the pass.

He may have been right not to expect it in that Daws shouldve scored it BUT that its sacrilege not to expect it.

It all makes me

We will never again be a top 3 side until we cure this or suddenly work out a way to achieve massive pack supremacy - something that will probably never happen again for any side due to the tv and entertainment imperative effect on our laws.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Hang on boys, your talking depth but first half France held 25 yards at times and the Irish were up to meet them easily.

they got a lot flatter in the 2nd half and were much more devestating, well when I say flatter the odd player came flatter and the running lines came from deep.

I'm not sure also you can blame the English Back row, they generally tackled their nuts off to little avail, although it was Cole who did most of their good breakdown work.

The difference is that you are correct on 1st phase playing flat can be more damaging. I was talking about support play and support lines when a player makes a break.

How many times - and it is just not th eEnglish game, do you see sides butcher overlaps by either:

aimless running that commits no-one and eats up the space (Scott? Williams v England, Toby Flood v Gloucester recent examples)
huge miss pass that allows the defence to drift at will
Lazy passing
Failing to even realise the opposition are short and either going the wrong way or kicking the ball
Running in to contact.

Ah that makes more sense.

But in regards to support lines, Foden is one of the best, and has been running them, don't you think Englands reliance on Tuilagi getting over the game line in the 13 channell is hurting you too. He just dies with the ball every time, and when he needs to make a pass it is stood still.

Pass flat - stand deep we were always taught - that way you take the ball at speed close to the gainline.

Not always appropriate - but not a bad maxim.

Instead England pass teh ball backwards 5 yds to a big lump who is standing still.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Ah that makes more sense.

But in regards to support lines, Foden is one of the best, and has been running them, don't you think Englands reliance on Tuilagi getting over the game line in the 13 channell is hurting you too. He just dies with the ball every time, and when he needs to make a pass it is stood still.

He has only played in one 6Ns game - probably the one we looked the most attacking (though that is not saying much)

Tuilagi, Barrit, Morgan and others are all valuable guys to launch us over the advantage line of course BUT if we dont start boxing clever very soon by using them as decoy runners and getting strike runners coming off their shoulders for pop passes then they will soon be of little use to us.

England are the best at taking exciting players and wrecking them.

Think about it.

The examples are legion.

I take your point, but he does do it at club level too, he def did against Sarries.

For me thats the difference between he and someone like Davies, Tuilagis threat is to the defender in front of him, whereas Davies threat is to the defender in front and the two either side of him, he turns primary threat into secondary and thirds

Triangulation


In defence mind, it's a UKCC thing, Wales England and Scotlands coaches take the coaching protocols as law and never deviate from them. The ethos of the UKCC is to teach techniques to not make mistakes at junior level, I tend to try to coach the younger boys to have fun, emulate the NT side and try everything!

p.s Tuilagi is a much much more subtle running threat than he is given credit for. He has a genuine outside break, drifts along a pass to get outside a man and is equally adept at picking incisive lines to slash through defensive lines without taking any contact whatsoever.

I can see us over-using him as a battering ram though for want of imagination. Oh yes i can.

When it comes to intellectual rugby capital were as broke as fanny may. SO then when we go and sack Ashton.....

p.p.s Nonu began his AB career as a more one one dimensional player as did Rodney Soialio (sp) they both augmented their games massively though while playing international rugby and offer multi threats as a result.

He may have more about him, but I have seen none of this at international level, which is where I beleive it counts. Ive seen him run some good lines, and seen him at club level do all sorts, but lots of players do one thing at club level and fail to step up.

He seems to be running 12 lines at 13 though IMO, and never uses the back 3 in any real way except for when he's just shipping ball on.

Triangulation wrote:p.p.s Nonu began his AB career as a more one one dimensional player as did Rodney Soialio (sp) they both augmented their games massively though while playing international rugby and offer multi threats as a result.

The Nonu/Tuilagi similarity is definitely there, although Nonu started as a winger and of course is now an inside center (or 2nd five-eighths as they like to say on the bottom of the world), personally I find more similarities between Toeava and Tuilagi in terms of style, or the young, raw, aggressive Tana Umaga to be honest. All three outside centers (eventually). Tuilagi has a fantastic pass, so he's half way there. No kicking game to speak of that I've seen. He also struggles with technique in setting the ball up in contact. He tends to reach forward for extra yards like a long jumper instead of making himself long and planting the ball back towards support. But like Nonu, I'm sure he has the talent to add a clever kicking game. I have been saying for weeks though that Tuilagi might go better at 12 running off flood/Farrell and distributing to someone a bit quicker outside him. Personally I'd play Flood/Tuilagi/Farrell giving us immense adaptability for both Flood/Farrell to rotate and Tuilagi/Farrell. So many variations available in there. The more dynamic nature might also get Ashton of his big gazoo and in to do some more work.

England are the best at taking exciting players and wrecking them.

How do we manage to do this with such regularity. I've just been watching the highlights of the U20 game against Italy and it's a joy to watch.

http://www.rfu.com/News/2012/March/NewsArticles/030312_20s_Italy_Report.aspx

The lads have handling skill, vision and pace all over the park but I have every confidence it will have been coached out of them by the time any of them make the senior squads. We also have incredible depth available to us so injury replacements just seem to blend in without the team missing a beat.

If we can do that at age group level why the hell can't we do it at senior level?

The game is faster. Everyone has less time on the ball.

We're the dullards and the luddites of the rugby world.

We do not give youth it's head.

We fear "flair" and seek shelter in the comfort of weight and power.

No one got anything to say?

Pathetic.

You see it in the Arriva Premiership where the skill levels are shockingly low. It is all based on power and not on skill. Speaking to Jason Leonard the other day at a mini festival he said that clubs hardly practise their skills and many players are poor passers off their left hands. Why on earth do they not spend the hours rectifying this and ensuring their passing is in front of players. The basics are not integrated in to the clubs training regimes which are all about weights and pods and getting over the gain line. We need someone to win the Premiership playing a higher brand of rugby to lead the way. Hopefully Gloucester and Quins can lead the way.

hugehandoff wrote:You see it in the Arriva Premiership where the skill levels are shockingly low. It is all based on power and not on skill. Speaking to Jason Leonard the other day at a mini festival he said that clubs hardly practise their skills and many players are poor passers off their left hands. Why on earth do they not spend the hours rectifying this and ensuring their passing is in front of players. The basics are not integrated in to the clubs training regimes which are all about weights and pods and getting over the gain line. We need someone to win the Premiership playing a higher brand of rugby to lead the way. Hopefully Gloucester and Quins can lead the way.

Yes. Good. This is it in a nutshell. Our club. underage and to an extent senior national coaches are a bunch of anti-rugby charlatans. By the time the players reach the senior national level what are the coaches to do? It's too late to start again with passing drills. Might as well just pick the big lumps with no footballing skill who at least understand how each other play.

Excellent.

I was watching the AP highlights last night and the amount of passes out to the wings that went high and behind the recipient was unbelievable. Any pace in the attack is lost, surely this is a basic skill!!!

Carpe Diem wrote:I was watching the AP highlights last night and the amount of passes out to the wings that went high and behind the recipient was unbelievable. Any pace in the attack is lost, surely this is a basic skill!!!

Why do you think Wales pick such tall wingers ?

At club level I'd finish each training session with a couple of half-hour touch rugby games - 2 6-a-side matches (any extra players used as rolling subs) on neighbouring pitches. And the losing teams have to run a couple of laps of the pitch afterwards.

The handling skills will improve pretty rapidly.

At club level I'd finish each training session with a couple of pints and a curry - The good old 80's

RubyGuby wrote:At club level I'd finish each training session with a couple of pints and a curry - The good old 80's

I almost added "the losing team pays for pints after" instead of/as well as the extra running training in my post

anyone think that Brown buchered the draw and pass simply cos it was his first cap at Home, last chance to score etc etc.

people need to realise that some players cannot cut it at international level mentally, or at least take time to get used to it.